Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

dublinstevie

Chivito550 wrote:

And the look on their faces when they have to go rustling around through their bags for coins. I was parked at a bus stop for about 90 seconds one day, on one of the first stops on the 16, while a couple of tourists (must have been staying with friends out that way) spent an age looking for change. Never occurred to the driver to start driving while they were doing this.

The driver was doing the correct thing as he could be in trouble for issuing tickets while driving if there was an inspector or a driving monitor on board

Cookie_Monster

Chivito550 wrote: »

Conductors are a crazy idea, and a step back into the past. I haven’t seen it in any developed first world country (I’m sure there is somewhere, but I haven’t seen it). Rio de Janeiro is the only place I have encountered it.

London!

Nichard Dixon

1huge1 wrote: »

I actually was in shock reading that, and then when I found it on google maps, it was even more amazing, connecting nowhere with nowhere (in population terms).

One striking thing about threads here is how any discussion of transport becomes an exercise in begrudgery against other forms of transport investment. A bridge that removes an hour from people's journey in an economically depressed area is an important thing which really has little to do with the reasons why transport in Dublin is a mess. The present government are promoting tax cuts rather than investment in infrastructure because they think that will get them more votes. They do this because people, including those in Dublin, don't want to pay tax to fund DART underground, as they don't travel that way, just as they sneer at bridges in Donegal because they don't live there. A bit of maturity is needed.

1huge1

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

One striking thing about threads here is how any discussion of transport becomes an exercise in begrudgery against other forms of transport investment. A bridge that removes an hour from people's journey in an economically depressed area is an important thing which really has little to do with the reasons why transport in Dublin is a mess. The present government are promoting tax cuts rather than investment in infrastructure because they think that will get them more votes. They do this because people, including those in Dublin, don't want to pay tax to fund DART underground, as they don't travel that way, just as they sneer at bridges in Donegal because they don't live there. A bit of maturity is needed.

I'm sorry but you have completely mistook the tone of my comment and I can assure you there was no begrudgery on my part.

I was simply referring to the fact that this bridge is connecting an area with a tiny population to another area with a tiny population.

If you honestly believe building a €20m bridge was the best transport decision for that area, that is fine, but I disagree.

benjamin d

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

One striking thing about threads here is how any discussion of transport becomes an exercise in begrudgery against other forms of transport investment. A bridge that removes an hour from people's journey in an economically depressed area is an important thing which really has little to do with the reasons why transport in Dublin is a mess. The present government are promoting tax cuts rather than investment in infrastructure because they think that will get them more votes. They do this because people, including those in Dublin, don't want to pay tax to fund DART underground, as they don't travel that way, just as they sneer at bridges in Donegal because they don't live there. A bit of maturity is needed.

It was a direct reference and comparison to a bridge that was deemed a waste of money in Limerick, so perfectly valid. There's hardly even a couple of thousand people within half an hour of that bridge, so to deny that it's an astounding waste of money would be ludicrous. Never mind sending that money to Dublin, if you handed Donegal CoCo €20m there's plenty they could be doing with it more usefully than building a white elephant in the middle of nowhere. In fact Letterkenny has needed a bypass with bridge since before Harry Blaney ever pulled that idea out of his arse.
Have some manners and wind your neck in.

Banjoxed

benjamin d wrote: »

It was a direct reference and comparison to a bridge that was deemed a waste of money in Limerick, so perfectly valid. There's hardly even a couple of thousand people within half an hour of that bridge, so to deny that it's an astounding waste of money would be ludicrous. Never mind sending that money to Dublin, if you handed Donegal CoCo €20m there's plenty they could be doing with it more usefully than building a white elephant in the middle of nowhere. In fact Letterkenny has needed a bypass with bridge since before Harry Blaney ever pulled that idea out of his arse.
Have some manners and wind your neck in.

The Harry Blaney Bridge is on the Wild Atlantic Way so that "White Elephant" is carrying tourists that we badly need in Donegal.

I have yet to hear anyone who used "White Elephant" as a description for any infrastructural investment in Ireland who wasn't either smug or comfortable already. More of that mentality and we might as well hang a "closed" sign on the country except for the professional classes and a few serfs to serve them.

Seanachai

cgcsb wrote: »

A number of reasons:

Politics makes it difficult to carry out projects taking longer than 4 years.

Most Cities, of our size, in the developed world have some sort of independent governance and are capable of funding their own infrastructure to some extent.

If Dublin had a metro, Rossport also must have one.

Lack of intelligence in general in the Irish population as a result of emigration to the more prosperous anglosphere over generations.

If the only people of any given generation left here are the folk from the hills have eyes, that means that politicians only have to get pot holes fixed and subsidize some unsustainable service a while longer to get re-elected.

Linked to the lack of intelligence is the lack of worldliness. We are only capable of comparing ourselves to the UK, and there is an awareness that Dublin is much smaller than London, ergo Dublin only needs to ape what services are available in provincial parts of the UK.

The Irish media are permitted to print misinformation about projects e.g. that DART underground is designed to connect Connolly and Heuston and that the existing PPT can do same

The Times was recently pressuring the government to give a commitment to NOT build metro north because the IT would consider it a waste.

Switzerland and Norway are for smart folk.

It's hard to digest what you're saying in a way, partly out of some sort of loyalty to the country, like somebody insulting your cousin who you know is a bollox, but you still don't like them saying it . A lot of what you said rings true however, it's important not to tar everybody with the same brush, but we are still backward here in a way, even after all of the progress.

I love the land of Ireland itself and the familiarity we have compared to other countries but it can be extremely frustrating to watch the same type of people constantly screwing things up like some sort of groundhog year. I think a lot of people do flourish when they emigrate as the culture here just stifles them, how can we change that here though, are we destined to just continue as we are or become even worse in terms of corruption and social imbalance?

thomasj

90 minutes this morning getting blanch to the city 30 minutes of which I'd say was spent old cabra road-manor street

benjamin d

Banjoxed wrote: »

The Harry Blaney Bridge is on the Wild Atlantic Way so that "White Elephant" is carrying tourists that we badly need in Donegal.

I have yet to hear anyone who used "White Elephant" as a description for any infrastructural investment in Ireland who wasn't either smug or comfortable already. More of that mentality and we might as well hang a "closed" sign on the country except for the professional classes and a few serfs to serve them.

Yes you're right, white elephant is wrong, of course a bridge is useful no matter where it is. But that one, even at the height of the boom, was a preposterous misuse of a lot of money that could've been better served elsewhere even in the local area.

cgcsb

Seanachai wrote: »

It's hard to digest what you're saying in a way, partly out of some sort of loyalty to the country, like somebody insulting your cousin who you know is a bollox, but you still don't like them saying it . A lot of what you said rings true however, it's important not to tar everybody with the same brush, but we are still backward here in a way, even after all of the progress.

I love the land of Ireland itself and the familiarity we have compared to other countries but it can be extremely frustrating to watch the same type of people constantly screwing things up like some sort of groundhog year. I think a lot of people do flourish when they emigrate as the culture here just stifles them, how can we change that here though, are we destined to just continue as we are or become even worse in terms of corruption and social imbalance?

I agree, I too would be very loyal and defensive of Ireland and indeed we can be very progressive in many ways, I'm thinking of the introduction of a smoking ban, plastic bag tax, ref on ssm etc. we're very much forward thinking in those areas. But in other areas we put our fingers in our ears and say la-la-la-la while looking at provincial empoverished regions of the UK for guidance.

We contradict ourselves on many fronts, we promote sustainability while subsidsing imported home heating oil through the welfare system.

We talk about reducing emissions from transport and then spend almost all of the transport capital budget on more roads while decreasing subvention for public transport.

We talk about tackling the housing crisis while Councils are STILL selling their social housing stock to residents without building any new stock.

In short, while we are somewhat progressive, we cannot have a solid policy on anything without backsliding and paying lipservice to the issue in question.

cgcsb

thomasj wrote: »

90 minutes this morning getting blanch to the city 30 minutes of which I'd say was spent old cabra road-manor street

Cabra-Manor St is definitely the worst part, the bus sails past all the traffic from Blanch-Cabra.

Seanachai

cgcsb wrote: »

I agree, I too would be very loyal and defensive of Ireland and indeed we can be very progressive in many ways, I'm thinking of the introduction of a smoking ban, plastic bag tax, ref on ssm etc. we're very much forward thinking in those areas. But in other areas we put our fingers in our ears and say la-la-la-la while looking at provincial empoverished regions of the UK for guidance.

We contradict ourselves on many fronts, we promote sustainability while subsidsing imported home heating oil through the welfare system.

We talk about reducing emissions from transport and then spend almost all of the transport capital budget on more roads while decreasing subvention for public transport.

We talk about tackling the housing crisis while Councils are STILL selling their social housing stock to residents without building any new stock.

In short, while we are somewhat progressive, we cannot have a solid policy on anything without backsliding and paying lipservice to the issue in question.

From what I've seen in relation to building and planning myself there seems to be a lot of corruption at a local and national level. Getting planning where I'm from in rural Ireland is often about talking to the right guy and maybe greasing the wheels a bit, there are certain guys who can literally build houses in reclaimed bogs. If money doesn't change hands then there will have to be favours of some kind.

"We talk about reducing emissions from transport and then spend almost all of the transport capital budget on more roads while decreasing subvention for public transport."

The question I'd ask here is what companies get the contract for this work and who are they connected to politically?. I think we're more like a South American or former Eastern bloc country in this regard. The country seems to be full of competing companies with various dodgy connections, all scrambling for their slice of taxpayers money.

I know places where if you complained about these issues, you'd be laughed out of the room. As long as fellas get some work on the road driving a machine or some sort of kickback then they don't really care about the general health of the country. We seem to be very easy to placate in one sense, very child-like as somebody else mentioned here.

cgcsb

Yes I'd agree with that and of course we have our present government, hopelessly inept on public transport and healthcare but we'll probably vote them in again because the other parties are hopelessly inept at...well everything, so FG offers the lesser of two evils. I'd still like to see Paschal unseated as a punishment though.

Leo V was a much better minister and has secured more funds for health in his new role. Paschal got us nothing.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd still like to see Paschal unseated as a punishment though.

Leo V was a much better minister and has secured more funds for health in his new role. Paschal got us nothing.

On that, I guess most of us agree. He is a particularly bad Minister for Transport.

howiya

One thing i'd like which probably wouldn't cost a lot of money is a page on the Dublin Bus website that shows the services that will not run on any given day due to "operational issues"...

There are times when the DB timetables are simply works of fiction and when you tweet to DB after a bus going on the missing list you get a response that a service did not run due to operational issues. I think most people would prefer to know in advance that the service wasn't running.

lawred2

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

London!

I never saw one there

devnull

howiya wrote: »

One thing i'd like which probably wouldn't cost a lot of money is a page on the Dublin Bus website that shows the services that will not run on any given day due to "operational issues".

No Operator will do that, it's bad PR.

Same reason that a bus is never cancelled and always "Did not operate"

Langerland

They are there alright....perhaps only on the busier routes. You should find info on the TfL website.

Conductors and Platform (Customer) Assistants in the busier Tube stations. Seemingly backward, but all keep the system ticking over efficiently.

ezra_pound

But they're not fare collecting conductors. They're more like door way assistants and customer service assistants:

"On the busier Central London routes, the bus will run with a conductor for most of the day. Conductors will not collect fares but will supervise the rear platform when they are on board, ensuring passenger safety when hopping on or off and providing travel advice.

When conductors are not present, the rear doors will be operated by the driver."

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/new-routemaster

howiya

devnull wrote: »

No Operator will do that, it's bad PR.

Same reason that a bus is never cancelled and always "Did not operate"

If no operator will do it voluntarily it should be part of their contract with the NTA. There should be some accountability for not providing scheduled services.

Do you not think its bad PR to leave people standing at bus stops, late for work etc?

devnull

howiya wrote: »

If no operator will do it voluntarily it should be part of their contract with the NTA. There should be some accountability for not providing scheduled services.

Do you not think its bad PR to leave people standing at bus stops, late for work etc?

I agree, but having watched the way CIE companies generally conduct their PR, I can assure you that you will never see a day like that by their own initiative.

Much better to annoy a few people who miss the bus and keep it self contained than broadcast it to the whole world. It's called PR management.

I would like to see something like this on Irish Rail
http://www.journeycheck.com/greateranglia/
https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/

We will never see it, but all operators in the UK operate their own version of this and it's always bang up to date.

Carawaystick

There's always mention of security/transport police needed on the trains and trams, but I regularly see busses stopping running for anti-social behaviour. Transport police/garda should act to prevent these services being disrupted this way.

howiya

devnull wrote: »

I agree, but having watched the way CIE companies generally conduct their PR, I can assure you that you will never see a day like that by their own initiative.

Much better to annoy a few people who miss the bus and keep it self contained than broadcast it to the whole world. It's called PR management.

I would like to see something like this on Irish Rail
http://www.journeycheck.com/greateranglia/
https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/

We will never see it, but all operators in the UK operate their own version of this and it's always bang up to date.

If they're not prepared to do it of their own free will then it should be forced on them by the NTA.

I will always tweet to Dublin Bus if there isn't a bus when there's supposed to be so in some instances they do end up broadcasting it. I'm sure others do the same

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

I agree, but having watched the way CIE companies generally conduct their PR, I can assure you that you will never see a day like that by their own initiative.

Much better to annoy a few people who miss the bus and keep it self contained than broadcast it to the whole world. It's called PR management.

I would like to see something like this on Irish Rail
http://www.journeycheck.com/greateranglia/
https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/

We will never see it, but all operators in the UK operate their own version of this and it's always bang up to date.

i think that these are implemented as part of their franchise agreement though. i can't see why the same couldn't be done for irish rail, put it in the contract. i agree we won't see it though unfortunately, the NTA aren't to bothered about implementing things in relation to the railway it seems apart from the 10 minute dart frequency which will no doubt slow the lot down. a shame really as a dart frequency of 10 minutes should be celebrated, but as a user of the rosslare line i'm absolutely dreading it.

howiya wrote: »

If they're not prepared to do it of their own free will then it should be forced on them by the NTA.

i agree. but the NTA seem reluctant to force anything upon the railway, so i wouldn't hold my breath if i were you

reubenreuben

Not just in Dublin, have you tried louth or meath!! It hardly exists and if it does it costs a small fortune

Dyr

end of the road wrote: »

i think that these are implemented as part of their franchise agreement though. i can't see why the same couldn't be done for irish rail, put it in the contract. i agree we won't see it though unfortunately, the NTA aren't to bothered about implementing things in relation to the railway it seems apart from the 10 minute dart frequency which will no doubt slow the lot down. a shame really as a dart frequency of 10 minutes should be celebrated, but as a user of the rosslare line i'm absolutely dreading it.

My experience is that Dublin bus consistently cancel buses on an ad hoc basis. yet there is no way to check if the cancellations are recorded with the NTA. I suspect they're not

MOH

howiya wrote: »

If they're not prepared to do it of their own free will then it should be forced on them by the NTA.

I will always tweet to Dublin Bus if there isn't a bus when there's supposed to be so in some instances they do end up broadcasting it. I'm sure others do the same

It wouldn't kill them to include a twitter feed on the main page of the website, or at least on the news centre page. Lots of people who don't use twitter would check the site first for unexpected delays, and it's usually useless.

seachto7

cgcsb wrote: »

Lack of intelligence in general in the Irish population as a result of emigration to the more prosperous anglosphere over generations.

If the only people of any given generation left here are the folk from the hills have eyes, that means that politicians only have to get pot holes fixed and subsidize some unsustainable service a while longer to get re-elected.

Linked to the lack of intelligence is the lack of worldliness. We are only capable of comparing ourselves to the UK, and there is an awareness that Dublin is much smaller than London, ergo Dublin only needs to ape what services are available in provincial parts of the UK.

Are you saying "we" are thick? I thought it was "labourers and navvies" who were usually the ones to emigrate in days gone by, you know ones who barely had an education? I do agree with the brain drain to a certain extent.
I also agree that we always seem to just compare ourselves to the UK.

Eugene Norman

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

One striking thing about threads here is how any discussion of transport becomes an exercise in begrudgery against other forms of transport investment. A bridge that removes an hour from people's journey in an economically depressed area is an important thing which really has little to do with the reasons why transport in Dublin is a mess. The present government are promoting tax cuts rather than investment in infrastructure because they think that will get them more votes. They do this because people, including those in Dublin, don't want to pay tax to fund DART underground, as they don't travel that way, just as they sneer at bridges in Donegal because they don't live there. A bit of maturity is needed.

Yes agree with that. And there's no point say "if you build it they will come" for Dublin and not Donegal. Peculiarly Irish thing that, from both sides. Londoners probably welcome bridges in Scotland, and islanders accept London should get new rail projects.

cgcsb

seachto7 wrote: »

Are you saying "we" are thick? I thought it was "labourers and navvies"

Not just labourers and navvies, people with an education but without family in high up places left in their droves and have done for generations, also people who aspire to better things are generally those who leave as opposed to those who are happy with dole, high tax and poor public services.

1huge1

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes agree with that. And there's no point say "if you build it they will come" for Dublin and not Donegal. Peculiarly Irish thing that, from both sides. Londoners probably welcome bridges in Scotland, and islanders accept London should get new rail projects.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, I know that seems to be a recurring theme at the moment.

But I think it should be decided on every case, I am from Limerick for example, and I can assure you that many people adopted the attitude "if you build it, they will come", for the Western Railway Corridor when in fact quite the opposite has happened.

I put this bridge in Donegal on a similar level. But I think we might be getting slightly sidetracked here.

Eugene Norman

Personally as a dub I blame dubs. For instance whining about the transport minister is an admission that Ireland is over centralised. I don't see much offline support for a Dublin mayor with tax powers, in fact looking at the reaction to "double taxation" in this country, particularly in Dublin it won't happen, because to raise revenue local authorities with tax raising power generally get sales and property tax, and an added income tax.

So tax is higher in the US cities with good infrastructure than country areas. Won't happen here for obvious reasons.

Eugene Norman

cgcsb wrote: »

Not just labourers and navvies, people with an education but without family in high up places left in their droves and have done for generations, also people who aspire to better things are generally those who leave as opposed to those who are happy with dole, high tax and poor public services.

Hmm. I doubt if that's true going back to the 50's.

benjamin d

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes agree with that. And there's no point say "if you build it they will come" for Dublin and not Donegal. Peculiarly Irish thing that, from both sides. Londoners probably welcome bridges in Scotland, and islanders accept London should get new rail projects.

With this particular bridge it's not a case of "if you build it they will come" because there is nothing of note on either side of the bridge to warrant a €20m investment ahead of anywhere else, Wild Atlantic Way or not. In fact the road in Letterkenny that I mentioned needs the money is a proposed bypass from the only major corridor into the town, serving all major routes from outside Donegal, to the Ramelton road which serves Carrigart and Fanad, where the bridge is!

toptom

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

Banjoxed

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

You've a railway toptom. Don't take it for granted; we lost ours mostly in 1959 and totally in 1965. Nearest is now Derry but we're a long way from that being a viable connection to Dublin.

end of the road

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

you have a train to dublin. a decent service it is as well. we can compare what one place and another place has and hasn't all we like but it doesn't get away from the fact that dublin needs large scale public transport investment to remove as much traffic from the roads as possible. it doesn't mean the rest of the country is left to rot, but it means the big projects get done first that benefit us all

Dyr

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

We're trying to keep yiz out. Hasn't worked so far

toptom

Bambi wrote: »

We're trying to keep yiz out. Hasn't worked so far

Ye wont be keeping me out on the 8th
Ilac Centre St stevens Green, here we come. G'on tipp

Stephen15

Rome has a equally bad if not worse bus system than Dublin. No bus lanes some of the road infrastructure looks like it dates to the Romans. It's bad enough not having bus lanes when the traffic is insane. Mind the city does have two metro lines with third on the way and an excellent tram system the same cannot be said for Dublin.

cgcsb

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

Thurles is a tiny town with a very frequent rail service.

Cookie_Monster

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

Population
Thurles: 8,000
Dublin: 527,000
GDA: 1,110,000

Why exactly would Thurles need anywhere near the level of infrastructure and services of Dublin?

Cookie_Monster

lawred2 wrote: »

I never saw one there

doesn't mean they don't exist.
Tram in Amsterdam also have conductors.
I'm sure with a bit of research you could find plenty more examples.

Nichard Dixon

Stephen15 wrote: »

Rome has a equally bad if not worse bus system than Dublin. No bus lanes some of the road infrastructure looks like it dates to the Romans. It's bad enough not having bus lanes when the traffic is insane. Mind the city does have two metro lines with third on the way and an excellent tram system the same cannot be said for Dublin.

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

Terrontress

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

That happens in most major construction projects in Ireland. There is an archaeologist on site who can stop works if he finds something of interest.

LionelNashe

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Dublin is not at all Low Density, this constantly repeated mantra is another symptom of the Low Intelligence/Unworldlyness of the simple-minded, child-like, poorly educated Irish population led by a simpleton intelligentsia of rustic halfwits quoting platitudes as a form of social medication.

The reality is that the average Irish person would look like an insular moron in the poorest and most backward parts of the Third World. Electricty and telecommunications has only made Irish People bigger Village Idiots.

Including you?

Nichard Dixon

Terrontress wrote: »

That happens in most major construction projects in Ireland. There is an archaeologist on site who can stop works if he finds something of interest.

Of course I know that. However ancient Rome had a population comparable with Dublin, the scale of archaeology is quite different.

mfceiling

Does any elected representative in Ireland not look at comparable sized countries to Ireland and see what they are doing right?

Just an example but if say New Zealand had a brilliant health service would it not make sense to spend a month there and find out why and see what we could copy to improve ours?

If (again only an example) Sweden had a great education system could they not go there and find out what they are doing that is so right?

Can't be difficult to look at which cities comparable to size in Dublin are leading the way with public transport and to see what can be replicated here. No?

spuddy

Why is PT so bad? I think the reason is simple, experience.
Understanding what it's like to be able to get from one part of a city to another quickly, easily & reliably is revolutionary when all you've ever had exposure to is Dublin Bus with schedules listed based on depot departures, long dwell times & meandering routes.

It's a chicken & egg situation. People have never experienced good PT, so don't want politicians to invest in it. And because politicians don't then invest in it, people will never experience good PT.

Bray Head

mfceiling wrote: »

Does any elected representative in Ireland not look at comparable sized countries to Ireland and see what they are doing right?

Just an example but if say New Zealand had a brilliant health service would it not make sense to spend a month there and find out why and see what we could copy to improve ours?

If (again only an example) Sweden had a great education system could they not go there and find out what they are doing that is so right?

Can't be difficult to look at which cities comparable to size in Dublin are leading the way with public transport and to see what can be replicated here. No?

Politicians who spend any length of time on fact-finding missions abroad generally have the minutiae of their expenditure dissected by newspapers as it is a cheap way to generate headlines.

It must discourage them from travelling to some extent.