Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

cgcsb

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

The excuse is generally that Thurles needs one more.

cgcsb

Terrontress wrote: »

That happens in most major construction projects in Ireland. There is an archaeologist on site who can stop works if he finds something of interest.

in fairness it's must less of a concern. Rome is much older than Dublin and it was a huge city 2,000 years ago, Dublin barely extended to the Northside 600 years ago.

cgcsb

mfceiling wrote: »

Does any elected representative in Ireland not look at comparable sized countries to Ireland and see what they are doing right?

Just an example but if say New Zealand had a brilliant health service would it not make sense to spend a month there and find out why and see what we could copy to improve ours?

If (again only an example) Sweden had a great education system could they not go there and find out what they are doing that is so right?

Can't be difficult to look at which cities comparable to size in Dublin are leading the way with public transport and to see what can be replicated here. No?

Circa 2001 a crack team of t̶r̶a̶n̶s̶p̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶t̶s̶ people related to FF TDs was sent on an all expenses paid trip to Singapore to see how their integrated ticketing worked. They were to report back and design a similar system for Dublin.

10 years later we got a leap card that was the same thing as stapling together your luas/DART and DB smart cards, no integration of fare structures was considered and commuters continue to be charges twice for changing bus or changing between modes.

Banjoxed

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

A few old fossils in Nesbitts.

Irish Steve

One of the fundamental issues that bedevils the system in Dublin is a complete lack of joined up thinking, it's hard to credit that Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are all the same company when the total structure is looked at.

I don't use it, but one of the classic examples has to be the Bus Eireann 109 service that goes out to Kells and Virginia area. It runs from Busaras out through Phibsboro, then Blanchardstown, Clonee, Pace and then onwards to Dunshaughlin and beyond. Very much at the same times, there is also a 105 service that goes over exactly the same route until they diverge after the M3 Parkway, and the 105 goes on to Ratoath.

I've not done a survey on the 109, but I will be willing to hazard a guess that the vast majority of passengers on that service are joining at Busaras in order to be sure of getting on, as at peak periods it's pretty full, and at peak times, it takes a long time to get clear of Dublin, and given the route length, that's not clever.

What would seem imminently more sensible would be for the 109 to run nonstop via Dublin Port Tunnel to M3 Parkway, with connections at Parkway to pick up the passengers from the former section from Busaras to Parkway, who can be facilitated very easily on the 105, or (if it was done properly, which in many respects is the subject of this thread) a range of Dublin Bus services that could serve M3 Parkway to connect to other parts of the city, like Sandyford, or Tallaght, or Citywest, and other areas that at the moment are a problem to get to without going into the centre of Dublin.

In the same way, there are other long distance Bus Eireann routes that would benefit from a similar system using other places as a park and ride with interchange facility. The Airport is another place that could benefit from a better local service system, Swords and beyond or the centre of Dublin get well served, but pretty much most other areas of the city are not well served, which is a throw back to the historic hub and spoke issues that are at the core of Dublin transportation, which was fine 30 or more years ago, but with the much wider distribution of "work" areas into the huge number of "outer" industrial estates, there is a desperate need for more orbital services to cover them more widely.

I'm not even going to go into the Metro, Dublin underground and similar pipe dream plans that have come and gone, there's a very evident lack of trust of rail in Dublin, for whatever reasons.

The whole orbital concept of Dublin is a mess, the biggest problem being that the only viable Liffey crossing outside of the city is the M50, and we all know the issues that are associated with that. There's no public transport worth talking about using any of the M50, which in itself is an indication of how slow the system is to change, the motorway was designed in the 80's, took for ever to build, and even now, the transport planners seem to be incapable of designing routes that make any sort of use of it.

As an example, a few weeks back, my wife decided to use public transport to get down to Limerick. We're in Ashbourne, so the options were the 103 to Busaras, and then get the long distance bus, or the 109A to the airport, and then get the same long distance service there, or for me to drop her over to Red Cow to connect with the same long distance service there.

In the end, I dropped her to the airport, even though the journey time from the Airport to Red Cow was over an hour, using the 109A wasn't economically viable, as there's no through ticketing option, and a single from Ashbourne to the Airport wasn't particularly cheap when compared to the cost of Dublin to Limerick, the 103 route into town didn't work well with the timings, and two bridge tolls on the M50 made that unattractive in the overall cost of things.

That said, it makes no sense to me that the long distance bus from Town goes from the airport into Busaras, and then spends a long time getting out to the Red Cow interchange, apart from the issues of congestion at peak periods, it would seem more attractive to run from Busaras to the Airport via DPT, and then use the M50 to get round to the M7, and it should be quicker, which seems to me to be more sensible given the overall route time.

The same would apply to most other long distance bus services, the number of people joining or leaving long distance buses outside of the centre of Dublin would make using an interchange option at places like M3 Parkway, or Red Cow, or Cherrywood, or the Airport, (and there are probably other places that would be appropriate) a lot more appropriate, and reduce the overall journey time on those routes.

I'm not going to hold my breath though, the chances of some sensible joined up thinking on this sort of thing are about as likely as pink snow in August.

1huge1

Irish Steve wrote: »

As an example, a few weeks back, my wife decided to use public transport to get down to Limerick. We're in Ashbourne, so the options were the 103 to Busaras, and then get the long distance bus, or the 109A to the airport, and then get the same long distance service there, or for me to drop her over to Red Cow to connect with the same long distance service there.

In the end, I dropped her to the airport, even though the journey time from the Airport to Red Cow was over an hour, using the 109A wasn't economically viable, as there's no through ticketing option, and a single from Ashbourne to the Airport wasn't particularly cheap when compared to the cost of Dublin to Limerick, the 103 route into town didn't work well with the timings, and two bridge tolls on the M50 made that unattractive in the overall cost of things.

That said, it makes no sense to me that the long distance bus from Town goes from the airport into Busaras, and then spends a long time getting out to the Red Cow interchange, apart from the issues of congestion at peak periods, it would seem more attractive to run from Busaras to the Airport via DPT, and then use the M50 to get round to the M7, and it should be quicker, which seems to me to be more sensible given the overall route time.

The same would apply to most other long distance bus services, the number of people joining or leaving long distance buses outside of the centre of Dublin would make using an interchange option at places like M3 Parkway, or Red Cow, or Cherrywood, or the Airport, (and there are probably other places that would be appropriate) a lot more appropriate, and reduce the overall journey time on those routes.

I'm not going to hold my breath though, the chances of some sensible joined up thinking on this sort of thing are about as likely as pink snow in August.

I completely agree with everything you've said, a bit of joined up thinking would go an awful long way, instead of providing complete routes, they should coordinate to use more feeder services.

On another note, I'm not sure if you are aware, but if you or your wife are ever heading to Limerick again, I recommend this service highly

http://www.dublincoach.ie/

Amazing how much a private company can sort out transfers so much more efficiently than our inept public transport operators.

Dyr

Personally I'd be really wary of feeder services, its another variable/point of failure that our public transport system can make a total balls of

Stephen15

The main complaint I would about the public transport in Dublin is price it's a ripoff compared to other European cities. Even on the leap card it's still not exactly cheap. Cash fares on Dublin bus cause long dwell times. I don't see why they can't be scrapped now with leap cards. One of the things that favours Romes buses is the use of three doors. I know it would encourage fare evasion but why not have more ticket inspectors. The NTA should buy 3 door single deckers instead of dd most routes do not require extra room of double deckers the single deckers used on the continent can carry nearly just as many people standing as a dd can sitting and for routes with high volumes they can get bendybuses which didn't work the first time as they were put on unsuitable routes the 46a and 145 are straight routes for most of the journey in qbcs and could easily negotiate them.

anothernight

spuddy wrote: »

Why is PT so bad? I think the reason is simple, experience.
Understanding what it's like to be able to get from one part of a city to another quickly, easily & reliably is revolutionary when all you've ever had exposure to is Dublin Bus with schedules listed based on depot departures, long dwell times & meandering routes.

It's a chicken & egg situation. People have never experienced good PT, so don't want politicians to invest in it. And because politicians don't then invest in it, people will never experience good PT.

I think this is a big one. I have friends from outside Dublin who moved to Dublin and thought public transport was great there... until they moved to other European capitals. Some people honestly don't see anything particularly wrong with Dublin Bus, for example, because they think the delays, ghost buses, costly fares, cancelled services, etc etc, are inevitable in such a system.
Unfortunately for me, I spent most of my life in a city with excellent public transport. Moving to Dublin and having to use the bus service there was a real shock to the system!

I suspect there would be more political will to fix the issue if more people used public transport and recognised that the problems with it are not inevitable, and not acceptable.


Another thing I found strange when I moved to Dublin was that people who didn't use public transport were completely oblivious to how it worked, and therefore also to the problems with it. If that's the case with the general population, how likely is it that politicians even know what problems must be fixed?

I had a (very wealthy) teacher in my country who used to say that the development of a country can be measured by how many rich people use public transport. She used to take the same bus or metro route to school as me. Every time I see a thread like this, I remember what she said.

cgcsb

Irish people tend to migrate to the anglosphere, Australia, New Zealand, the USA, Canada etc. the ideas they bring pack about public transport are null. If Irish people were more likely to migrate to the Netherlands or Germany and return we'd probably have better pt.

Chivito550

anothernight wrote: »

I think this is a big one. I have friends from outside Dublin who moved to Dublin and thought public transport was great there... until they moved to other European capitals. Some people honestly don't see anything particularly wrong with Dublin Bus, for example, because they think the delays, ghost buses, costly fares, cancelled services, etc etc, are inevitable in such a system.
Unfortunately for me, I spent most of my life in a city with excellent public transport. Moving to Dublin and having to use the bus service there was a real shock to the system!

I suspect there would be more political will to fix the issue if more people used public transport and recognised that the problems with it are not inevitable, and not acceptable.


Another thing I found strange when I moved to Dublin was that people who didn't use public transport were completely oblivious to how it worked, and therefore also to the problems with it. If that's the case with the general population, how likely is it that politicians even know what problems must be fixed?

I had a (very wealthy) teacher in my country who used to say that the development of a country can be measured by how many rich people use public transport. She used to take the same bus or metro route to school as me. Every time I see a thread like this, I remember what she said.

Very interesting. What country is this, if you don't mind me asking?

Your point about people from the country thinking Dublin has great public transport is a good one. I remember talking to a couple of American tourists who thought our public transport was very good. Not sure where in the US they were from, but most of the country has appalling public transport systems that would make even Dublin look like Switzerland!

Chivito550

cgcsb wrote: »

Irish people tend to migrate to the anglosphere, Australia, New Zealand, the USA, Canada etc. the ideas they bring pack about public transport are null. If Irish people were more likely to migrate to the Netherlands or Germany and return we'd probably have better pt.

Agree for the most part. But I have to say the public transport in Melbourne was very good. There's 16 suburban rail lines. The problem with them I guess is that the network is very city centre focused, though you can connect between some lines without having to go all the way back into the city. These lines serve the outer suburbs well, though because of the whole "Great Australian Dream" of people wanting to live in far flung suburbs, with giant houses with a pool, so many people in these outer suburbs are actually stuck in areas not near train lines. But this is down to idiotic planning in recent years. The train lines were always there long before this, and people thought they didn't need them, so built away from them, and now give out that they aren't near them.

But what really works well is the tram network, the largest in the world. 245km or track, 28 routes, and 1813 tram stops, and a fleet of around 500 trams. It covers the entire city centre, and the entire inner suburbs (a far more dense and vibrant area). I lived in the inner suburbs for over 3 years, and never had a problem getting around. It's far from perfect, but coming from Dublin, I really appreciated how easy it was to get around the inner suburbs, and to much of the outer suburbs.

Public transport everywhere else I've been in Australia has been pretty poor though, except Sydney which I remember being ok, but not as extensive as Melbourne. Not sure why it's better in Melbourne than the rest. Maybe the grid layout of the city centre, the wide streets, and the public pride in the historic value of their tram network makes it easier to operate such an extensive network.

MOH

Irish Steve wrote: »

The same would apply to most other long distance bus services, the number of people joining or leaving long distance buses outside of the centre of Dublin would make using an interchange option at places like M3 Parkway, or Red Cow, or Cherrywood, or the Airport, (and there are probably other places that would be appropriate) a lot more appropriate, and reduce the overall journey time on those routes.

It's insane. I don't know how many buses heading out the N4/N7 go to/from the airport first, but it's ridiculous. Course the problem with a feeder service is the unreliability of connections, so you'd need a proper changeover hub where people could kill time. You can't really just dump them all at Applegreen in Enfield

end of the road

anothernight wrote: »

I think this is a big one. I have friends from outside Dublin who moved to Dublin and thought public transport was great there... until they moved to other European capitals. Some people honestly don't see anything particularly wrong with Dublin Bus, for example, because they think the delays, ghost buses, costly fares, cancelled services, etc etc, are inevitable in such a system.
Unfortunately for me, I spent most of my life in a city with excellent public transport. Moving to Dublin and having to use the bus service there was a real shock to the system!

I suspect there would be more political will to fix the issue if more people used public transport and recognised that the problems with it are not inevitable, and not acceptable.


Another thing I found strange when I moved to Dublin was that people who didn't use public transport were completely oblivious to how it worked, and therefore also to the problems with it. If that's the case with the general population, how likely is it that politicians even know what problems must be fixed?

I had a (very wealthy) teacher in my country who used to say that the development of a country can be measured by how many rich people use public transport. She used to take the same bus or metro route to school as me. Every time I see a thread like this, I remember what she said.

but costly fares are inevitable when the government decides the passenger must bare the brunt of paying for the service. thats the problem some don't grasp. i don't agree with it and i believe transport needs to be subsidized properly and fares brought down but that isn't going to happen in ireland for now. i agree about all the other problems.

anothernight

Chivito550 wrote: »

Very interesting. What country is this, if you don't mind me asking?

Your point about people from the country thinking Dublin has great public transport is a good one. I remember talking to a couple of American tourists who thought our public transport was very good. Not sure where in the US they were from, but most of the country has appalling public transport systems that would make even Dublin look like Switzerland!

I grew up in Madrid. As far as I know, they're currently eroding the transport system over there due to cuts and all sorts of things (e.g., the metro used to have a flat fare in central Madrid, and now it's per station, making it much more expensive than before) but even then my (Dublin-born) boyfriend was impressed with the public transport. He's only used Dublin Bus a couple of times in the last few years but he couldn't get over how bad it was in Dublin in comparison.

Obviously you can't really compare Madrid and Dublin in many ways because the population distribution is so different, but there's definitely an expectation over there that public transport must be reliable, and anything less is simply not acceptable. If the metro or the bus breaks down and you will be late for work, for example, you can get a note to show your boss explaining why you're late. I lived in Madrid for 10 years and took the bus or the metro to school every weekday. I never had the bus break down or not show up. 4 years of taking the 25A to college in Ireland was a completely different story.

One difference though: in Madrid, buses (unless they've changed things!) don't follow timetables. Instead, they tell you the expected frequency for each part of the day. The bus I took to school was every 5 minutes at peak hour and every 10-15min (can't remember) at other times. The frequency is based on how many buses will be out at that time and what the traffic is like. It seems like a small difference, but I find it easier to plan my route if I know how much time I can be expected to wait for the bus to arrive, rather than only knowing what time the bus is leaving the depot.

anothernight

end of the road wrote: »

but costly fares are inevitable when the government decides the passenger must bare the brunt of paying for the service. thats the problem some don't grasp. i don't agree with it and i believe transport needs to be subsidized properly and fares brought down but that isn't going to happen in ireland for now. i agree about all the other problems.

Someone must pay for public transport of course, that's undeniable. However, if you're paying for a system, you should be getting value for money.

Dyr

MOH wrote: »

It's insane. I don't know how many buses heading out the N4/N7 go to/from the airport first, but it's ridiculous. Course the problem with a feeder service is the unreliability of connections, so you'd need a proper changeover hub where people could kill time. You can't really just dump them all at Applegreen in Enfield

They can and they will

Have you seen limerick junction :eek:

Geuze

anothernight wrote: »

I had a (very wealthy) teacher in my country who used to say that the development of a country can be measured by how many rich people use public transport. She used to take the same bus or metro route to school as me. Every time I see a thread like this, I remember what she said.

A very good point.

If high earners can be convinced to leave their cars behind, then you know the transit is good.

CiboC

Geuze wrote: »

A very good point.

If high earners can be convinced to leave their cars behind, then you know the transit is good.

Doesn't always work.

The metro in Moscow is like nirvana for a public transport system yet many people prefer to stay stuck in their cars as a status symbol.....

end of the road

Bambi wrote: »

They can and they will

Have you seen limerick junction

i have. great place in its day if trains were your thing. just be thankful its not anywhere near the dump that rosslare //// hole station (sorry i mean rosslare europort station) is

nuckeythompson

It ain't bad, sooner you can accept it and work around it the sooner you realize it's alright

Cookie_Monster

nuckeythompson wrote: »

It ain't bad, sooner you can accept it and work around it the sooner you realize it's alright

if it's not bad why would you have to work around aspects of it?

thomasj

Says it all really!
https://twitter.com/GarethJeyes1/status/672115393062940672

devnull

On a slightly different note, PIS systems saying services are going somewhere they are not or stopping at a place that they don't is not uncommon also.

Grandeeod

CiboC wrote: »

Doesn't always work.

The metro in Moscow is like nirvana for a public transport system yet many people prefer to stay stuck in their cars as a status symbol.....

It wasn't always that way. Like Ireland, they see the car as a status symbol and PT as the poor persons option. In an Irish context this comes from being impoverished many years ago to the ability to own a car. (like Russia) Its been going on in Ireland long before the celtic tiger exasberated it.

Bray Head

I don't particularly like cars or driving. I own one as a lifestyle necessity. I lived happily without one before I had kids. The car is a bit like the vacuum cleaner. I use it when it's necessary.

It is not love of my car that keeps me off Dublin Bus, or indeed the price.

It is the sheer slowness and lack of comfort at peak times that has me on the bike or even walking. Added to that the complete lack of any sense of network which makes it useful pretty much only for point-to-point with a long walk.

Dyr

Interesting example of public transport in dublin

Theres three buses that I can get home from the city centre

route A from bustop 1 - right outside the job

route B from bus stop 2 - 5 minutes walk from the job

route C from bus stop 3 -10-15 minute walk from the job

check the RTPI today:

route 1 bus is due in 25 minutes at stop A
route 2 bus is due in 12 minutes a bus stop B, the next route 2 bus at that bus stop is due in 25 minutes
route 3 is not showing any bus due on RTPI for bus stop C, because the two previous route 3 buses arrived at the same time in convoy

that of itself is fairly damning, two out of three routes with a 25 minute gap during peak time

but whats uniiquely irish and makes our public transport utterly crap is what follows:

You would think, based on the RTPI, that route 2 , being 12 minutes away from stop c, is the obvious choice to make. But no, because RTPI is a nonsense.

Route 3 is a busy route and unreliable. the bus thats 12 minutes away may be a ghost bus or may terminate in the city centre, neither of which RTPI will tell you. If it does arrive it will be packed and may not stop, you're taking a risk

route 2: 25 minutes away, seems a long wait but if you know the route you know that 25 minutes can mean up to 35 minutes OR as little as 10 minutes away from the stop

route 3: no buses showing but if you know that route then you know buses often show up as being 15 minutes away when they're really only about 5 minutes away. They often double up too with the second bus not showing on RTPI until the last minute


Anyway I walk the ten minutes to route 3's bus stop. In those 10 minutes the route 1 bus (not due for 25 minutes) is actually at bus stop A

Route 2 bus is also at bus stop B now AND a second bus for route 2 now magically appears on RTPI... due in five minutes.


And that is why so much public transport in dublin sucks, only predictable in its unreliability.

Victor

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Dublin is not at all Low Density, this constantly repeated mantra is another symptom of the Low Intelligence/Unworldlyness of the simple-minded, child-like, poorly educated Irish population led by a simpleton intelligentsia of rustic halfwits quoting platitudes as a form of social medication.

The reality is that the average Irish person would look like an insular moron in the poorest and most backward parts of the Third World. Electricty and telecommunications has only made Irish People bigger Village Idiots.

Play nice.

Moderator

---

Some people are insular.

Some people are morons.

Some people are insular morons.

There is a problem with populism and anti-intelligentsia sentiment.

There is a problem with elitism.

Many countries have these problems.

We are not alone.

Idbatterim

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1202/750627-exchequer-figures/

November tax take €3bn above forecast - Exchequer

3 billion above forecast and dublin will wait another 5 years for an inferior MN to "save" 200,000,000 a year over 5 years, thats the cost of a lot of dublins gridlock?

2018 before construction starts on the the N7 widening programme! DU put off for years to save a few hundred million? The sums involved are a total irrelevance!

What do we expect when we only have morons to vote for and I am not saying there is any alternative!

Chivito550

So, this morning it took me 73 minutes to get from Ballinteer Kingston to Camden St on the 16. Door to door journey of about 80 minutes. No accidents. Just a rainy Thursday morning. Had I grinded out the 20 minute walk to the LUAS in the rain, it would have been 40 minutes door to door, but given how close I am to the bus, it's generally the preferred option.

So 9.5km of road covered in 73 minutes. That works out to be 7.8km per hour. That is truly shocking speed. For anybody who takes the 16 you'll understand what a shocker it can be in heavy traffic. No bus lane around Harold's Cross, so stuck there crawling for eternity, and then again on South Circular Road. I'd hate to know how long the commute would be if I worked in the IFSC.

1huge1

This thread just convinced me to finally sign up to the Dublin Bikes scheme, though judging by the weather today, its still handy to have the option of the train even if it is painfully slow going just 4 stops.

CiboC

Grandeeod wrote: »

It wasn't always that way. Like Ireland, they see the car as a status symbol and PT as the poor persons option. In an Irish context this comes from being impoverished many years ago to the ability to own a car. (like Russia) Its been going on in Ireland long before the celtic tiger exasberated it.

The difference is that here you can always use poor unreliable service as an excuse to drive instead. The metro in Moscow is utterly fantastic as a PT facility and if it is available you would want to be nuts not to use it (although lots of people there are!).

fxotoole

Chivito550 wrote: »

Have traveled the world, have lived in Melbourne, and have developed an interest in public transport and how various cities around the world do it. Having seen the public transportation systems throughout Continental Europe, the Far East, and in Melbourne, I've come to the conclusion that Dublin must be among the very worst of any reasonably sized major Western city in the world in terms of public transport (excluding most US cities of course, and possibly Auckland).

Just why is it so bad here? Is it a case that we are so car dependent because the public transport is terrible, or is the public transport so poor because Irish people love their cars so much, and there isn't the same appetite for an efficient, extensive and well connected public transport network?

Why on earth were the 2 LUAS lines not connected to begin with?
Why on earth was Heuston station never connected to Pearse or Connolly?
Why are Commuter Rail services so infrequent?
Why does nothing seem to ever connect in this city? (Long walk from Green Line to DART for example)

Why is it that countries like Switzerland can get their sh1t in order and have such a highly efficient integrated service, which encourages people to leave their cars at home, and all we can seem to do is come up with plans, that the various governments had no genuine interest in following through with?

Why do we use our size as a reason for why we don't need a metro? Oslo is the same population as us and has 6 metro lines, 6 tram lines, and around 5-6 commuter rail lines. Copenhagen, Helsinki, Nuremberg are all the same size as us, and have vastly superior networks.

And was digging up our tram lines in the 40s and 50s, in hindsight, the single greatest mistake in the history of public transport in Ireland? Had we as people lobbied to keep them, we could be like Melbourne now (who have the biggest tram network in the world, and were in danger of losing it back in the 60s or 70s, but the locals pressurised the governments to keep it, as far as I understand, as it was part of the city's identity.)

So many questions, mostly borne from frustration at how we sell ourselves so short as a city. How can we call ourselves a modern city when we are 50 years behind our similarly sized European counterparts?

In short, it's down to a mix of politics, pandering to Unions, and outright incompetence.

Bray Head

Chivito550 wrote: »

So 9.5km of road covered in 73 minutes. That works out to be 7.8km per hour. That is truly shocking speed.

You have to ask why good taxpayers money is being spent on a service that generates a speed barely above walking pace.

Yes, I know that congestion is on the rise, but this is on a route where 50% is bus lane. A bus lane is also of course a subsidy in the sense that it is a transfer of a scarce public resource (road space) to Dublin Bus.

cgcsb

Chivito550 wrote: »

So, this morning it took me 73 minutes to get from Ballinteer Kingston to Camden St on the 16. Door to door journey of about 80 minutes. No accidents. Just a rainy Thursday morning. Had I grinded out the 20 minute walk to the LUAS in the rain, it would have been 40 minutes door to door, but given how close I am to the bus, it's generally the preferred option.

So 9.5km of road covered in 73 minutes. That works out to be 7.8km per hour. That is truly shocking speed. For anybody who takes the 16 you'll understand what a shocker it can be in heavy traffic. No bus lane around Harold's Cross, so stuck there crawling for eternity, and then again on South Circular Road. I'd hate to know how long the commute would be if I worked in the IFSC.

I've always been of the opinion that a future southern extension of metro north should take in Portobello, Harold's X, Terenure, Rathfarham and Tallaght simply because that area of Dublin is very densely populated, poorly served by narrow arterial roads and no quality bus routes.

There is also no feasible way to improve surface mass transit, no space for luas for example.

There are those that'd like to see the metro merged into the existing green line, a wasted opportunity in my opinion

or extend it along the N11 corridor, which is already well served by QBC DART and Luas.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

I've always been of the opinion that a future southern extension of metro north should take in Portobello, Harold's X, Terenure, Rathfarham and Tallaght simply because that area of Dublin is very densely populated, poorly served by narrow arterial roads and no quality bus routes.

There is also no feasible way to improve surface mass transit, no space for luas for example.

There are those that'd like to see the metro merged into the existing green line, a wasted opportunity in my opinion

or extend it along the N11 corridor, which is already well served by QBC DART and Luas.

I agree fully that MN should turn south-west after Stephen's Green. The bus routes through Rathmines and Harold's Cross are chronic and always will be as there are no 4-lane arterial routes. There are still some pockets of undeveloped land as well which will support population growth.

After Templeogue village you could run surface metro along the middle of the N81 as far as the Square without too much bother.

Given that the sensible proposals for PT in Dublin will commence in the 2020s at the earliest, I wouldn't hold my breath however......

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

So, this morning it took me 73 minutes to get from Ballinteer Kingston to Camden St on the 16. Door to door journey of about 80 minutes. No accidents. Just a rainy Thursday morning. Had I grinded out the 20 minute walk to the LUAS in the rain, it would have been 40 minutes door to door, but given how close I am to the bus, it's generally the preferred option.

So 9.5km of road covered in 73 minutes. That works out to be 7.8km per hour. That is truly shocking speed. For anybody who takes the 16 you'll understand what a shocker it can be in heavy traffic. No bus lane around Harold's Cross, so stuck there crawling for eternity, and then again on South Circular Road. I'd hate to know how long the commute would be if I worked in the IFSC.

You really would be far better walking down to Ballinteer Avenue and getting a 14 to Dundrum LUAS and the LUAS from there - it would be quicker, and not much more expensive.

Bray Head wrote: »

You have to ask why good taxpayers money is being spent on a service that generates a speed barely above walking pace.

Yes, I know that congestion is on the rise, but this is on a route where 50% is bus lane. A bus lane is also of course a subsidy in the sense that it is a transfer of a scarce public resource (road space) to Dublin Bus.

Painting a white line on a road is all well and good, but when you combine poor driving with gaps in the bus lanes it just completely clogs up.

I recently took a 16 northbound in the morning peak, during the course of the trip we were held up unnecessarily by around 15 minutes due to:

1) Traffic between Rathfarnham bridge and Rathdown Park just blatantly using the bus lane
2) A car parked on the kerb blocking the bus lane just before Harold's Cross Green
3) Cars straddling the bus lane through Harold's Cross and along the SCR and blocking the bus

When you are faced with those sort of obstacles, it becomes impossible to run a reliable bus service.

It is a nightmare route and there is little that can be done other than having gardai out there enforcing the law.

cgcsb wrote: »

I've always been of the opinion that a future southern extension of metro north should take in Portobello, Harold's X, Terenure, Rathfarham and Tallaght simply because that area of Dublin is very densely populated, poorly served by narrow arterial roads and no quality bus routes.

There is also no feasible way to improve surface mass transit, no space for luas for example.

There are those that'd like to see the metro merged into the existing green line, a wasted opportunity in my opinion

or extend it along the N11 corridor, which is already well served by QBC DART and Luas.

Totally agree with this - it's the one area crying out for a metro in Dublin.

The ludicrous LUAS to Rathfarnham idea was quickly binned as it was pointless.

Macy0161

cgcsb wrote: »

or extend it along the N11 corridor, which is already well served by QBC DART and Luas.

All pretty much at capacity though. Possibly some scope for more buses, and I guess longer/ more frequent dart and luas.

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

So, this morning it took me 73 minutes to get from Ballinteer Kingston to Camden St on the 16. Door to door journey of about 80 minutes. No accidents. Just a rainy Thursday morning. Had I grinded out the 20 minute walk to the LUAS in the rain, it would have been 40 minutes door to door, but given how close I am to the bus, it's generally the preferred option.

So 9.5km of road covered in 73 minutes. That works out to be 7.8km per hour. That is truly shocking speed. For anybody who takes the 16 you'll understand what a shocker it can be in heavy traffic. No bus lane around Harold's Cross, so stuck there crawling for eternity, and then again on South Circular Road. I'd hate to know how long the commute would be if I worked in the IFSC.

You should cycle Chivito. Not only the fastest and most consistant transport along that route, but training benifits as well in your case!

Chivito550

Enduro wrote: »

You should cycle Chivito. Not only the fastest and most consistant transport along that route, but training benifits as well in your case!

I'm injured at the moment.

Cycling sounds appealing from a time perspective, but when you factor in having to shower and change after, it's unlikely to be quicker than a walk+LUAS combo.

Dublin's not the greatest cycling friendly city to be honest. Cars drive into poorly maintained cycle lanes, which are really there just for show in some areas, as it would be impossible on some roads for a car to keep out of the cycle lane, without having one wheel on the wrong side of the road. Also scumbags here who think it's gas craic to just destroy a random bike parked somewhere. Netherlands and Denmark, now they are countries where cycling to work is an absolute dream.

cgcsb

Macy0161 wrote: »

All pretty much at capacity though. Possibly some scope for more buses, and I guess longer/ more frequent dart and luas.

Longer trams are being ordered and the DART is going up to a 10 min frequency, perhaps with longer carriages, the N11 corridor can also be served by BRT or a better QBC with traffic light priority. Even after that, it may still be crowded but far, far better off than the south west of the City which only has a few sporadic sections of bus lane.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm injured at the moment.

Cycling sounds appealing from a time perspective, but when you factor in having to shower and change after, it's unlikely to be quicker than a walk+LUAS combo.

Dublin's not the greatest cycling friendly city to be honest. Cars drive into poorly maintained cycle lanes, which are really there just for show in some areas, as it would be impossible on some roads for a car to keep out of the cycle lane, without having one wheel on the wrong side of the road. Also scumbags here who think it's gas craic to just destroy a random bike parked somewhere. Netherlands and Denmark, now they are countries where cycling to work is an absolute dream.

You can add to that list the fact that Ballinteer is at the top of a long hill - no matter which you cycle, during which you would be cycling into the wind most of the time, which at the end of a long day isn't always the most attractive option.

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

Painting a white line on a road is all well and good, but when you combine poor driving with gaps in the bus lanes it just completely clogs up.

I recently took a 16 northbound in the morning peak, during the course of the trip we were held up unnecessarily by around 15 minutes due to:

1) Traffic between Rathfarnham bridge and Rathdown Park just blatantly using the bus lane
2) A car parked on the kerb blocking the bus lane just before Harold's Cross Green
3) Cars straddling the bus lane through Harold's Cross and along the SCR and blocking the bus

When you are faced with those sort of obstacles, it becomes impossible to run a reliable bus service.

It is a nightmare route and there is little that can be done other than having gardai out there enforcing the law.

Having Gardaí everywhere at once isn't practical. Fit a camera to the front of every Dublin Bus, there is software available that can identify certain traffic violations, e.g. a car crossing a line where it shouldn't, a quick snap of the license plate and an automated search through the national car registry and boom offending driver gets a €500 fine in the post, with little/no human intervention. Use the money raised to invest in public transport. Save the camera footage for 10 days for appeals.

_Kaiser_

The reason public transport is so bad in Dublin really is it doesn't do what the public expects or needs.. and I'm not convinced by the funding argument either. 30 years ago when there was a lot less traffic on the roads, DB and the rest were still as bad!

What's needed are transport hubs at the entry points to the city - so say around Citywest on the N7, Clonee on the M3, Swords on the M1 etc - with plenty of free (or very cheap parking) and then connecting light rail/underground services between them that run every 5-10 mins at peak times. For example someone should be able to park the car at Citywest and get to Sandyford without having to drive all the way or divert unnecessarily via "An Lar"

But this is Ireland where such an investment would be political suicide for our rural parochial politicians, unless they promised to implement a similar service for every Athlone and Tralee in the country. It's proven true under the current FG-dominated Government who have made the situation worse! But what can you expect in a country that attaches so much value to GAA tribal nonsense - and the knock-on effects it has - I suppose!

As someone else said, the only realistic hope is that with fibre broadband being more readily available nationally and improving technology, more companies adopt a flexible attitude to start/finish times where possible or work from home practises.

CiboC

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm injured at the moment.

Cycling sounds appealing from a time perspective, but when you factor in having to shower and change after, it's unlikely to be quicker than a walk+LUAS combo.

Dublin's not the greatest cycling friendly city to be honest. Cars drive into poorly maintained cycle lanes, which are really there just for show in some areas, as it would be impossible on some roads for a car to keep out of the cycle lane, without having one wheel on the wrong side of the road. Also scumbags here who think it's gas craic to just destroy a random bike parked somewhere. Netherlands and Denmark, now they are countries where cycling to work is an absolute dream.

That's not really true, there is a bit of a myth about the shower after thing - You don't actually have to.

You don't have to try to break your land speed record on the way into work, if you are reasonably fit and take it handy you will not work up a sweat. You will be stopped at lights and junctions plenty of times anyway.

Bike lanes are very variable in quality, true, but you will find the best route for yourself after a few days in a trade off of direct route v heavier traffic. Secure bike parking on Drury Street.

The real key is proper clothing. Get proper cycling clothes and shoes, bring your work clothes with you in a waterproof cycling pannier bag or even better leave them in work. Change when you get there, job done - you really don't need to shower.

You can always go for the speed record on the way home..:)

lxflyer wrote: »

You can add to that list the fact that Ballinteer is at the top of a long hill - no matter which you cycle, during which you would be cycling into the wind most of the time, which at the end of a long day isn't always the most attractive option.

Heading south from city centre the wind is usually behind you on the way home, and the hill would be good exercise - with all the time you save commuting there is plenty of time for a shower at home if you want to!

I cycle a similar distance most days - Glenageary to Stephen's Green. 35 minutes door to door, can't be beaten by any other mode and in all honesty you very rarely have to get the monsoon wet gear out - most cycle gear will cope with an occasional rain shower without any discomfort, you really need it to be bucketing down to need the full suit of armour....!

Idbatterim

So 9.5km of road covered in 73 minutes. That works out to be 7.8km per hour. That is truly shocking speed. For anybody who takes the 16 you'll understand what a shocker it can be in heavy traffic. No bus lane around Harold's Cross, so stuck there crawling for eternity, and then again on South Circular Road. I'd hate to know how long the commute would be if I worked in the IFSC.

I live up very close to you. I would get a bike and leave it Ballaly or dundrum (as its closer zone) and luas it in... or would do it on days with bad weather at least. The 16 is a total and utter joke...

1huge1

Idbatterim wrote: »

I live up very close to you. I would get a bike and leave it Ballaly or dundrum (as its closer zone) and luas it in... or would do it on days with bad weather at least. The 16 is a total and utter joke...

Do you find your bike is safe leaving it there all day?

RainyDay

lxflyer wrote: »

You can add to that list the fact that Ballinteer is at the top of a long hill - no matter which you cycle, during which you would be cycling into the wind most of the time, which at the end of a long day isn't always the most attractive option.

Ah, the hill isn't that bad, from direct personal experience - that's what gears are for.

CiboC wrote: »

That's not really true, there is a bit of a myth about the shower after thing - You don't actually have to.

It's true that you don't necessarily have to shower, but it is also true that a shower in work doesn't take any longer than a shower at home. So don't shower, don't eat, get up into your cycling gear and get on the road asap, then shower in work and eat brekkie at your desk.

1huge1 wrote: »

Do you find your bike is safe leaving it there all day?

They have bike lockers at Dundrum, though I haven't used them myself.

Stephen15

For the proposed metro why don't they just build a proper heavy rail metro the plans seem to be for just a glorified Luas if they're going to be building a metro at least do it properly.

Bray Head

I don't glibly recommend cycling in Dublin to everyone as there are lots of reasons (confidence, health, etc) why it doesn't appeal to everyone.

I've commuted by bike in a few cities and Dublin is not at all bad. Traffic is EXTREMELY slow and the potential for high-speed collision with a vehicle is low. The city is relatively flat. It does not rain as much as you think. Parking rules are reasonably well observed (due to clamping) The bike lanes are crummy in places but you get used to them.

They key is a good bike and good clothing. These are upfront costs which put people off. Cycling on a crummy mountain bike in your work clothes is not pleasant.

Once I got off the bus I've never looked back though, and, judging by increased numbers on the roads I am not the only one!