Irish Rail 2016 timetable consultation: A DART every 10 minute and more

GM228

IE have just release their 2016 DART and Connolly timetable for consultation.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/public-consultation-for-2016-dart-and-connolly-intercity-and-commuter-services


MODERATOR NOTE: For the record and easy access, I'm editing this to include the main changes as outlined by Irish Rail:

• DART weekday 10-minute frequency: A major increase in weekday DART frequency from every 15 minutes to every 10 minutes all day.
• DART weekend frequency: A consistent schedule every 15 minutes on Saturday, and every 20 minutes on Sunday, eliminating some existing schedule gaps.
• Extra express morning peak service from Dundalk/Drogheda: as the existing morning Belfast Enterprise service will now serve Dundalk at the earlier time of 07.30hrs and Drogheda at 07.54hrs, a new express service is proposed to depart Dundalk at 07.55hrs, serving Drogheda at 08.20hrs arriving Dublin Connolly at 09.09hrs.
• Increased frequency for Dundalk: This peak service is one of three new services in each direction daily for Dundalk on weekdays. Please see DRAFT Timetable for more information.
• Dublin/Belfast Enterprise changes: a revised Dublin/Belfast Enterprise schedule will see a more even interval between services, resulting in some significant changes to departure times.
• Departure time changes on all routes: while the above are the more significant changes, Iarnród Éireann advises all customers on all Connolly routes to view the draft schedules, as many services will see departure time changes, or changes to stopping patterns of individual trains which may affect their journeys.

cgcsb

All round a big improvement, it seems it'll now be possible to get from Belfast to Dub before 9am, although with a whopping 2 hour and 21 minute Journey time which really isn't sustainable with motorway competition. Also the current Belfast services are timetabled to much quicker, a step backwards in journey time

GM228

cgcsb wrote: »

All round a big improvement, it seems it'll now be possible to get from Belfast to Dub before 9am, although with a whopping 2 hour and 21 minute Journey time which really isn't sustainable with motorway competition.

Also sees a re-introduction of Friday and Saturday only intercity services on the Connolly side-major changes to Sligo, Belfast and DART services.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

All round a big improvement, it seems it'll now be possible to get from Belfast to Dub before 9am, although with a whopping 2 hour and 21 minute Journey time which really isn't sustainable with motorway competition. Also the current Belfast services are timetabled to much quicker, a step backwards in journey time

Only that train takes that long - all the others take 2:15. I would assume this is down to having to fit within the increased commuter traffic.

I doubt it's possible to beat that with the constraint of having a 10 minute DART service.

Decuc500

That doesn't look good for Darts to Howth/Malahide in evening rush hour. 1 Dart to each location every 20 minutes. If Irish Rail are going to keep putting on 4 carriage darts in evening rush hour (and I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise) it's going to be carnage.

loyatemu

they've padded the DART timings even more - it's now typically 45 minutes from Pearse to Bray (currently 40 which is already seriously padded). More trains yes, but slower than ever before. In theory extra trains should mean faster boarding so they should be reducing the journey durations but they've done the opposite.

Extra 10 minutes each day, 50 minutes extra a week on the DART, and I get to pay extra for the privilege? Bullsh!t.

loyatemu

I also note the 0800 from Greystones, which is the busiest train on the entire IE network, now departs at 0804 and takes 3 minutes longer which makes it unviable for anyone who needs to be in work/college for 9am - not a huge problem unless you are getting it from Greystones where alternative options are limited. The previous train is a commuter from Wexford that is already jammed and can't be lengthened, the previous DART is half an hour earlier.

MrMorooka

The 10 minute DART frequency is unneeded and unworkable, it's just an easy headline item that the powers-that-be can point to as 'an investment in public transport' while they dutifully ignore that they canned DART Underground and other meaningful investment.

end of the road

anyone else find the layout of the pdf annoying? trying to figure out the rosslare timetable is a bit of a challenge. maybe its just me. doubt we will get anything to make one jump for joy anyway. the 10 minute dart frequency while welcomed will make this service even slower. oh the joy

thomasj

7pm Connolly rosslare
7.15pm Connolly Sligo

5.15pm Connolly Longford moved to 5.25pm
5.25pm Connolly maynooth brought forward to 5.15pm

New 3.35pm Connolly Sligo, the 4pm ish will only run Fridays now

Last train to maynooth now 11.13pm monday-saturday. But still too early at 8.52pm Sundays

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

anyone else find the layout of the pdf annoying? trying to figure out the rosslare timetable is a bit of a challenge. maybe its just me. doubt we will get anything to make one jump for joy anyway. the 10 minute dart frequency while welcomed will make this service even slower

Will most likely affect most services on all routes as everything except Docklands/Pace trains interact with the DART at some stage.

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

Only that train takes that long - all the others take 2:15. I would assume this is down to having to fit within the increased commuter traffic.

I doubt it's possible to beat that with the constraint of having a 10 minute DART service.

At present the Journey time between he two Cities varies between 1hr57 and 2hr15, the timetable change means a slower service to Belfast on almost all departures.

MrMorooka

GM228 wrote: »

Will most likely affect most services on all routes as everything except Docklands/Pace trains interact with the DART at some stage.

GM228

Probably why it's one of the best routes IE do, rarely delayed and it has a very decent running time with a consistent timetable.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

At present the Journey time between he two Cities varies between 1hr57 and 2hr15, the timetable change means a slower service to Belfast on almost all departures.

I know that, but given the constraints of the existing infrastructure and the desire to operate a 10 minute DART frequency, I don't see how it can be done any faster than in these proposals.

Timings at the southern end will only improve if additional tracks are put in place on the Northern line and that's not very likely in the foreseeable future.

loyatemu

lxflyer wrote: »

I know that, but given the constraints of the existing infrastructure and the desire to operate a 10 minute DART frequency, I don't see how it can be done any faster than in these proposals.

Timings at the southern end will only improve if additional tracks are put in place on the Northern line and that's not very likely in the foreseeable future.

that doesn't excuse the extra padding - Pearse-Bray was something like 34 minutes when the Dart launched. 30 years later, they've only opened one extra station and it will now be 45 minutes.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

that doesn't excuse the extra padding - Pearse-Bray was something like 34 minutes when the Dart launched. 30 years later, they've only opened one extra station and it will now be 45 minutes.

Hang on - I'm only talking about the Enterprise.

I didn't express any opinion on the other services as I've not looked at them in full detail yet.

devnull

Some things I noticed

Vastly better balance between Howth and Malahide branches, at least when it comes to departures, the current timetable has a large bias to the Howth branch which causes massive overcrowding on Malahide Darts in the second half of evening peak where there is 30-40 minute gaps between services. At one point, there are two Howths directly before a Malahide, two Howths after, before the next Malahide, and those two Malahides are often leaving people behind.

Northern Commuters appear to stop far less at Portmarnock and Howth Junction whilst the number stopping at Clongriffin have also been cut. However with the increased DART timetable and more regular services to Clongriffin and Portmarnock due to a increased 20 minute frequency, I odn't see this being a real issue.

devnull

Decuc500 wrote: »

That doesn't look good for Darts to Howth/Malahide in evening rush hour. 1 Dart to each location every 20 minutes. If Irish Rail are going to keep putting on 4 carriage darts in evening rush hour (and I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise) it's going to be carnage.

If you are on the Malahide branch the new draft imetable is streets ahead of the current one which has an inherent bias towards the Howth branch, even though the passenger numbers do not back this bias up.

Malahide DARTs are currently every 30 minutes with the 17:54 from Connolly often leaving people behind, the previous Howth Train being full of Malahide/Portmarnock/Clongriffin commuters who have no faith of being able to get ont he 17.54 Malahide, and the next Malahide Dart not being for 40 minutes which also often leaves people behind.

The current timetable in evening peak and over weekends is not fit at all for purpose

What I see play out after 5.30 is as follows

Two Howth trains one after another, which have seats free after Connolly, that have barely enough to fill a single carriage after howth junction between them.

A malahide train that is often leaving people behind at Pearse/Connoll because they can't board, which is still almost full at Howth Junction.

Followed by two more Howth trains one after another, which have seats free after Connolly, that have barely enough to fill a single carriage after howth junction between them.

Then A malahide train that is often leaving people behind at Pearse/Connoll because they can't board, which is still almost full at Howth Junction.

end of the road

thomasj wrote: »

7pm Connolly rosslare

is that instead of the current early service or as well as it? good to see a proposed return of the very early service though. always found it handy, and found it decently loaded believe it or not.

L1011

They appear to have tweaked a lot of the Docklands services to more realistically match the time currently spent sitting waiting at junctions.

The 16:55 Docklands that always sits for 5mins waiting at Glasnevin has gone to 17:00 and the 17:25 that doesn't have to wait has stayed 17:25. This pleases me greatly - I can often make it there for 17:00 but 16:55 is just a bit of a stretch. 17:55 is back to 17:50 which is also useful for me personally but does leave a bigger gap.

thomasj

end of the road wrote:

is that instead of the current early service or as well as it? good to see a proposed return of the very early service though. always found it handy, and found it decently loaded believe it or not.

Instead of it

dublindiehard

Nice to see earlier dart on malahide branch

Kh1993

Fairly disappointed that Howth Junction loses out on all commuter trains bar 1 or 2 a day. A great, more reliable, faster (and often less full, even at peak time) alternative to the slew of signal faults and whatever other reasons delay darts every morning. Also lots going in the opposite direction against traffic that'll lose out (or have to change trains once or twice).

I realise that speed is probably the reason, but as it is, non-stops crawl between Raheny and Howth Junction so I doubt much speed is gained.

Also, would add to cynicism about 10 min dart frequency. Useless if trains are 4 carriage.

L1011

Actually noticed that some Docklands-Maynooth interchange times are pretty woeful now, 17 and 21 mins in the evenings; 9 in the mornings. There's a growing amount of traffic doing this as further businesses open in the North Docks which are a much closer walk to Docklands than Connolly. No reason a Docklands train shouldn't be running halfway between two Maynooth trains rather than running up against one or the other as seems to be the case every time. (yes, I have made a submission rather than just moaning!)

3 minutes later on the last Maynooth train is nothing worth writing home about either; it definitely needs pushing a LOT later by addition of another service.

end of the road

thomasj wrote: »

Instead of it

thought so. that will leave a huge gap in the time table of about 6 hours. not good. anyway i've submitted my feedback so we will wait and see what happens (not holding my breath)

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

thought so. that will leave a huge gap in the time table of about 6 hours. not good. anyway iI've submitted my feedback so we will wait and see what happens (not holding my breath)

There should be spot prizes for anyone who manages to actually find any difference between the draft and final versions because I very much doubt there will be.

monument

MrMorooka wrote: »

The 10 minute DART frequency is unneeded and unworkable, it's just an easy headline item that the powers-that-be can point to as 'an investment in public transport' while they dutifully ignore that they canned DART Underground and other meaningful investment.

Why exactly is it "unneeded"?

Frequency is often the best way to make public transport more desirable and attractive. Better frequency increases people's door-to-door speeds and increases the reliability of a service.

end of the road

monument wrote: »

Why exactly is it "unneeded"?

Frequency is often the best way to make public transport more desirable and attractive. Better frequency increases people's door-to-door speeds and increases the reliability of a service.

while i agree in general, in the case of the dart i don't believe the speed will improve with a 10 minute frequency. while i welcome such a frequency in theory, i am rather worried about long distance services which are all ready slow within the dublin area becoming slower, especially those to goarey/wexford/rosslare

Hungerford

I think that I've spotted possibly the most useless sequence of DART movements possible within the morning timetable.

There are two services departing from Howth within five minutes of each other: 08.00 and 08.05. The shadow Dart terminates in Dun Laoghaire before running five minutes in front of a DART from Bray at 09.10. It then terminates in Connolly before going off to Fairview presumably.

On a more general note, the ten-minute DART frequency basically strangles every diesel services in or out of Connolly. I can't see the logic behind not switching to 15 minutes between DARTs during off-peak periods.

shoehorn

current 08.09 connolly to maynooth express becomes 7.55, with the train to bray leaving after rather than before it (will inevitably hold it up too when it's running late).
No longer really an 'express' though - takes 46 min to get to connolly in the draft, instead of the current 38! only 2 mins quicker than the bray train scheduled after it!

1505 and 1600 connolly-sligo effectively amalgamated in a new 1535

thomasj

16.00 still runs on a friday only 10 minutes later

tara83

I think there's room for extra peak service on the Docklands/M3 line. As you say Docklands suits a lot more commuter these days and that's only going to grow.

Oiriallach

The changes to the Dublin-Belfast timetable should make the Enterprise service more attractive for commuters, especially cross-border commuters (e.g. Dundalk-Belfast or Newry-Dublin). Those travelling into Dublin will be able to arrive at 0841 (current equivalent 0904) and depart at 1710 (current equivalent 1650), which will be more closely aligned with the traditional 0900 to 1700 working day. For those travelling into Belfast a 0925 arrival, although still a bit on the late side, will be a lot better than the current 0945 arrival. The peak evening departure will still be at 1805, so this will suit anyone who can work from say 0945 to 1745.

cgcsb

relocating the terminus to Victoria Street would probably knock 10 mins of the timetable. What'd really fix the enterprise is a re-routing of the track via Banbridge instead of Portadown, maybe even a 15 min saving, but pigs will probably fly first.

devnull

Hungerford wrote: »

On a more general note, the ten-minute DART frequency basically strangles every diesel services in or out of Connolly. I can't see the logic behind not switching to 15 minutes between DARTs during off-peak periods.

That would be because that it would reduce it to 30 minutes for all those customers after Howth Junction.

LXFlyer

Unfortunately there is a trade-off here between expanding the DART service and operating the longer distance commuter and Intercity services.

Without extensive additional trackwork, it is inevitable that the flexibility to operate such commuter and Intercity services is far more limited due to the extra DARTs that are operating.

One could perhaps argue that outside of certain peak times that a 15 minute DART frequency might be more appropriate, but let's be honest that's not really when the problems with scheduling the commuter services exist - the morning and evening peaks are when they are more critical.

I suspect some rejigging of the Northern line evening peak timetable may be needed, as some of the gaps are probably too long, but this is going to be difficult with the revised DART service.

It highlights the problems of trying to operate a high frequency DART service along with other longer distance services with the limited infrastructure that is in place.

Decuc500

Hungerford wrote: »

I think that I've spotted possibly the most useless sequence of DART movements possible within the morning timetable.

There are two services departing from Howth within five minutes of each other.

This might look a bit odd but with the new timetable of one Dart from Howth/Malahide every 20 minutes this train might well be the only train that isn't jam packed every morning for passengers getting on after Howth Junction.

I sometimes get a Dart at Kilbarrack from Howth that arrives 11 minutes after the previous Howth train. There's room on it. That train will be gone next year.

With every 10 minute Dart from Howth Junction onwards now being in reality a 20 minute Dart from it's first stop it means every train will be packed. And the minister says there will be increased capacity with the new timetable? He hasn't got a clue.

devnull

Decuc500 wrote: »

With every 10 minute Dart from Howth Junction onwards now being in reality a 20 minute Dart from it's first stop it means every train will be packed. And the minister says there will be increased capacity with the new timetable? He hasn't got a clue.

Actually, as someone who uses a station beyond Howth Junction to Malahide the timetable is a vast improvement because it resolves all of the current issues that create capacity problems in the evening related to DART only stations and severe overcrowding.

Evening peak looks a bit like this (using times from Clontarf Road)

17:32 to Howth - Seats Avaliable at Clontarf - After Howth Junction not enough people to fill one carriage

17:43 to Howth - Seats Avaliable at Clontarf - After Howth Junction not enough people to fill one carriage, large number of people getting off at Howth Junction to switch to Malahide train.

17:58 to Malahide - Dangerously overcrowded, on occasion people cannot board from Connolly onwards. Passengers passed out in summer. At Howth Junction train is still heavily overcrowded.

18:13 to Howth - Seats Avaliable at Clontarf - After Howth Junction not enough people to fill two carriages.

18:31 to Howth - Seats Avaliable at Clontarf - After Howth Junction not enough people to fill two carriages, large number of people getting off at Howth Junction to switch to Malahide train.

18:46 to Malahide - Dangerously overcrowded, on occasion people cannot board from Connolly onwards.. At Howth Junction train is still heavily overcrowded.

This pattern has played out on a daily basis for the last 9-12 months and it's a disgrace that it took them this long to do something about it.

So I think you'll find that the new timetable is a vast improvement with a regular balanced service between the two lines every 20 minutes on each branch rather than the current arrangement where Howth gets rather more than that and Malahide gets less.

Of course it might mean that someone in Howth, Bayside and Sutton might actually have to sit next to someone for the whole of their journey rather than having a whole bank of 4 seats to themselves after Howth Junction :rolleyes: My heart really bleeds for them, the current timetable absolutely does not match capacity to demand.

Or to put it another way, between 5.30pm and 7.00pm there are six trains on the Howth branch Northbound and just two on the Malahide and both the Malahides are four carriages as well! I honestly can't believe there are commuters on the Howth branch moaning about only getting a train every 20 minutes.

The current DART schedule is too biased in favour of Howth services, that is a fact. There's even a 90 minute gap in Malahide services on Saturday morning!

thomasj

of course in dublin 15 at peak hours we're back to buses taken 1.5 hours-2 hours to get out to hartstown/clonsilla/ongar, traffic in dublin city has to be worse than during the last boom.

in the meantime, during peak hours, we have erractic patterns of trains on maynooth line (10 minutes upto 30 minutes) and short trains (including intercity railcars) still being used on the maynooth line.

its still hourly off peak and we still cant get a train later than 9pm on a sunday.

its a complete and utter farce!

cgcsb

thomasj wrote: »

of course in dublin 15 at peak hours we're back to buses taken 1.5 hours-2 hours to get out to hartstown/clonsilla/ongar, traffic in dublin city has to be worse than during the last boom.

in the meantime, we have erractic patterns of trains on maynooth line (10 minutes upto 30 minutes) and short trains (including intercity railcars) still being used on the maynooth line.

its still hourly off peak and we still cant get a train later than 9pm on a sunday.

its a complete and utter farce!

A disgrace alright I'd say DART to Maynooth and BRT routes connecting the sprawl of Blanch to the Navan Road Parkway Station was needed desperately about 20 years ago. This situation in 2015 is beyond a joke.

Decuc500

I'm just looking at this from my own (selfish) point of view, I use Kilbarrack daily.

In the morning it looks like all the Darts will be crowded from Howth Junction onwards when at the moment some aren't. In the evening every second train will be full with 20 minutes worth of commuters either going to Howth or Malahide. If they are still 4 carriages long it will chaos.

I've no doubt Malahide users are happy with Darts every 20 minutes, so will Southsiders. With a train every 10 minutes to Bray if one is too short or packed just get the next one. This isn't an option with the line split for Northsiders.

Paying even more next year in fares I was hoping the new timetable would alleviate crushes, not add to them.

devnull

Decuc500 wrote: »

I've no doubt Malahide users are happy with Darts every 20 minutes, so will Southsiders. With a train every 10 minutes to Bray if one is too short or packed just get the next one. This isn't an option with the line split for Northsiders.

Paying even more next year in fares I was hoping the new timetable would alleviate crushes, not add to them.

The crush in the evening is partly because how bad the split is between the two sections which the new timetable, as long as politics don't see it tore up, should address.

The issue now is the Howth trains are carrying about 50% load to stations between Clontarf and Kilbarack, 25% are getting off at Howth Junction and switching to Malahide and 25% are actually going on that branch.

The Malahide branch you have about 80% going to Portmarnock, Malahide, or Clongriffin and about 20% going to stations at Howth Junction and before and they are absolutely like sardines every night.

What I would suspect to happen now with the new timetable is the Malahide trains will be busy but no longer like sardines and people getting left behind nad the Howth trains will have few spare seats rather than the number they have now.

I was on the 17:43 to Howth from Clontarf last week and there were only 5 people on my carriage after getting off at Howth Junction. I then switched to the Malahide train and I could barely get on there were people standing everywhere!

end of the road

thomasj wrote: »

short trains (including intercity railcars) still being used on the maynooth line.

agree, but don't expect anything to change in terms of stock. from what i can see IE seem to find it operationally convenient to use regional/intercity stock on local services even though they cannot cope with those services, while robbing your suburban stock for long distance services which don't actually justify the capacity that such suburban stock offers.

LXFlyer

Hungerford wrote: »

I think that I've spotted possibly the most useless sequence of DART movements possible within the morning timetable.

There are two services departing from Howth within five minutes of each other: 08.00 and 08.05. The shadow Dart terminates in Dun Laoghaire before running five minutes in front of a DART from Bray at 09.10. It then terminates in Connolly before going off to Fairview presumably.

I'm not sure how operating an extra DART at the height of the morning peak is "useless"?

There is a similar extra DART from Bray at 08:00 to Connolly adding extra capacity between the standard interval service.

Hungerford

Oiriallach wrote: »

The changes to the Dublin-Belfast timetable should make the Enterprise service more attractive for commuters, especially cross-border commuters (e.g. Dundalk-Belfast or Newry-Dublin).

I would argue the opposite. There is a huge issue with the new Belfast morning departure time (06:15 am). It will depart before any of the current local connecting services get to Belfast Central or Portadown.

This means that passengers on the Larne, Bangor and Portadown local lines will be unable to use the service. And there is a surprising amount of such traffic - when connections to that first train have been broken in the past, Translink have had to reschedule local services to reinstate them.

The problem this time is that I cannot see Translink pushing back the start times of their local services by half an hour to accommodate the earlier departure.

LXFlyer

Hungerford wrote: »

I would argue the opposite. There is a huge issue with the new Belfast morning departure time (06:15 am). It will depart before any of the current local connecting services get to Belfast Central or Portadown.

This means that passengers on the Larne, Bangor and Portadown local lines will be unable to use the service. And there is a surprising amount of such traffic - when connections to that first train have been broken in the past, Translink have had to reschedule local services to reinstate them.

The problem this time is that I cannot see Translink pushing back the start times of their local services by half an hour to accommodate the earlier departure.

And for that reason you are suggesting that there shouldn't be an earlier service between the two cities?

There may well be good connecting traffic, but I find it difficult to believe anyone would suggest that there shouldn't be a pre-9am arrival in Dublin on each line in the country.

Infini

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/train-drivers-may-not-be-able-to-operate-earlier-and-more-frequent-services-unions-34234658.html

Well it was inevitable that this was gonna happen. The unions are basically questioning weather this is even achivable. Dunno if it can be done I did hear a while back that the extra drivers they were supposed to have gotten have ended up replacing existing drivers leaving.

n97 mini

Nothing in this for the Maynooth line people. Very disappointing the existing problems haven't even been fixed, whatever about actual service improvements.

Ronan

Nothing in this for Portmarnock either - trains to city centre between 7 & 8am go from 6 down to 3 and the 6 are packed as it is. Halved coming home too which will be a nightmare. Sent feedback to their link and urge everyone affected to do the same. Ridiculous proposal.

AppleBottle

For my own commute, there isn't much of a difference to me bar a couple of minutes in the changes to the trains I would normally get to and from work.

I would worry that the new DART frequency could cause a lot of headaches for those on the Drogheda/Dundalk commuters. Anytime the 5:49 DART from Pearse to Malahide is delayed, they will always let that go ahead rather than the commuter to Dundalk at 5:55 meaning the commuter gets stuck right behind it. I can be pretty frustrating

devnull

AppleBottle wrote: »

Anytime the 5:49 DART from Pearse to Malahide is delayed, they will always let that go ahead rather than the commuter to Dundalk at 5:55 meaning the commuter gets stuck right behind it. I can be pretty frustrating

That train is delayed almost every day due to gross overcrowding and has shocking dwell times due to the fact there are only two northbound Malahide DARTS in 90 minutes in evening peak whereas there are Five Howth in an hou.

Also not helped if you miss that Malahide DART it's 50 minutes till the next one, which causes issues further up the line.

See here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=97940525

The increase in Malahide Darts in the second half of evening peak by over 100% should hopefully alleviate that problem and help things for the commuter sets too, since they are running so full partly because of the lack of DART's to Malahide.