Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Dionysis

Well this year is over so let's start talking about what remains, i.e. Minor and U-21 or next year.

If Cody is to stay on,
1) he needs to change the selectors:
Keep Dempsey
Bring back M Fogarty
Bring in Shefflin (Shefflin was amazing at barking orders at this forwRds organising them when he played, getting them to interlink well and to show for the ball, our forwards could do with him).
Drop Lyng and McGarry.

2) he needs to play his best players in there best positions
E Murphy
P Murphy
J Holden/ J Lyng or A N Other
A N Other
P Walsh
J Lyng/Joyce
C Buckley
Fogarty
A N Other
TJ Reid
A N Other
A N Other
R Hogan
C Fennelly
A N Other

3) I said it before and I'll say it again now, he needs to decide what newish and U21 players he wants to bring in, and drive them hard from Nov 2017 onwards. By thIs I mean, he needs to physically push these players and play them throughout the league. Waterford and Corks younger lads are far superior to KKs - mentally, physically and are far more driven. He needs to play them in every league game, and so what if we are relegated, but I want to see, hard nose, driven, determined young lads next summer, hungry for their place in the team. Id only add Blanchfield, Leahy and O Shea to this group, he rest need a rest and need to be saved until next summer. But he needs to push these new lads hard in training from next Nov 2017.

4) he needs to dictate what's happening at U-21 training as the players coming to him are years off being ready go play senior, which is wrong.

5) he needs to drop from the panel the players that are never going go make it, and try younger lads that might gain more from experience.

6) he needs to be ready, to play, multiple styles, running game, diagonal ball and high ball in to the forwards.

7) the work rate this year was miles off other years and that needs to be brought back to previous levels.

brookville

Dionysis wrote: »

Well this year is over so let's start talking about what remains, i.e. Minor and U-21 or next year.

If Cody is to stay on,
1) he needs to change the selectors:
Keep Dempsey
Bring back M Fogarty
Bring in Shefflin (Shefflin was amazing at barking orders at this forwRds organising them when he played, getting them to interlink well and to show for the ball, our forwards could do with him).
Drop Lyng and McGarry.

2) he needs to play his best players in there best positions
E Murphy
P Murphy
J Holden/ J Lyng or A N Other
A N Other
P Walsh
J Lyng/Joyce
C Buckley
Fogarty
A N Other
TJ Reid
A N Other
A N Other
R Hogan
C Fennelly
A N Other

3) I said it before and I'll say it again now, he needs to decide what newish and U21 players he wants to bring in, and drive them hard from Nov 2017 onwards. By thIs I mean, he needs to physically push these players and play them throughout the league. Waterford and Corks younger lads are far superior to KKs - mentally, physically and are far more driven. He needs to play them in every league game, and so what if we are relegated, but I want to see, hard nose, driven, determined young lads next summer, hungry for their place in the team. Id only add Blanchfield, Leahy and O Shea to this group, he rest need a rest and need to be saved until next summer. But he needs to push these new lads hard in training from next Nov 2017.

4) he needs to dictate what's happening at U-21 training as the players coming to him are years off being ready go play senior, which is wrong.

5) he needs to drop from the panel the players that are never going go make it, and try younger lads that might gain more from experience.

6) he needs to be ready, to play, multiple styles, running game, diagonal ball and high ball in to the forwards.

7) the work rate this year was miles off other years and that needs to be brought back to previous levels.

Spot on,we definitely need a coach who's modern and will have a say
We definitely need to work on the likes on billy ryan,conor delaney,cleere and darren mullen and try get them physically up to the next level.Darren mullen in particular could make the step up next year these lads need to be playing league hurling and Walsh cup matches not 12 of last year's all Ireland team.

dubcat51

Core group for next year still very strong.2x murphys p.walsh buckley tj richie walter colin.after that joyce fogarty lester for me.then ger with a league campaign and then the new guns leahy cleere j walsh donnelly ryan scanlon etc.mick fennelly if he gets a good run in the league.would like to see henry in to give the whole thing a big lift.

Village87

What a shambles on the line Saturday night, what was the idea of starting Jonjo when he hasnt been seen all year. He coudld not have been impressing in training as there is very little game time since Wexford defeat facing into qualifiers, where the sub keeper was brought in before him that day, cant understand it, to get the better of the sweeper a team needs fast skillful players, Jonjo has fighting qualities but not a man to use against the sweeper.

Robert Lennon on Gleeson was another crazy move, as soon as Waterford realised what Kilkenny were doing they dropped Gleeson out the field and Lennon only marked him as far as the 65 creating space in the Waterford full forward line, Gleeson got 5 points out the field while Lennon was lost, cant cover the ground and Gleeson supplied the crucial goal for Barron in ET.

Is there anyone in Kilkenny to mark Jamie Barron. he always comes up with the big scores, first Waterford point after HT when they were struggling and 1-2 in first half extra time which effectively won the game.

Clearances from defence... looking at Cork yesterday supplying the ball to the full forward and working it out of the backs was a joy, kilkenny often outnumbered Waterford 3-4 players to 1 in there half and kept hitting De Burca, what is Paul Murphy's problem, can he not look up and find a half forward or midfielder. Kilkenny struggle against the sweeper and i believe this is one of the reasons why. Brain dead in the backs on the ball.

Kilkenny have a lack of pace, Buckley, Wally and Fennelly apart. Fogarty is very slow when turned as seen when Jamie Barron turned him a few times, need to get faster lads in there.

Lack of Leadership.. As stated here before with leaders we needed the following to step up. Fogarty, Padraig Walsh, Paul Murphy, Fennelly, Walter Walsh. Apart from Colin who tried hard Saturday the rest of these players had a very disappointing year. Padriag Walsh needs to be reinstated to the wing back position, where he can start attacks as he is good in the air and very skilful and gets on a lot of ball.

Village87

dubcat51 wrote: »

He is not as good a 5 as padraig.think back nearly 12 months to the scores padraig got in the replay v waterford and the 14 replay v tipp.all star last year at 5.

Fogarty is turning out to be very average, simply not able for Barron midfield and little influence wing back.. Average in the air, skill level, speed and striking very moderate. Against the sweeper Saturday Kilkenny needed attacking speedy wing backs to create attacks, Fogarty picked up a few loose balls in his own half but other than that now i'm very disappointing in him.

Dionysis

KK's backs lacked that raw aggression that should be there but isn't. When the ball comes into our back line especially our full back line our backs should be swarming all over it, Saturday night they were like lambs.

Midfield - forever and a day I'm saying now that our half back, midfield and half forward lines leave opposition players free in the middle third. The opposition destroy us in this area each game. Tipp did it last Sept, Wexford did it in June and Waterford did it Saturday night.

The sweeper - we were getting nothing from the extra defender so why not try something different and put three in midfield, or even seven players forward, spread out the play and make Waterford fight man to man for the ball. We needed to try something different.

Dionysis

KK's backs lacked that raw aggression that should be there but isn't. When the ball comes into our back line especially our full back line our backs should be swarming all over it, Saturday night they were like lambs.

Midfield - forever and a day I'm saying now that our half back, midfield and half forward lines leave opposition players free in the middle third. The opposition destroy us in this area each game. Tipp did it last Sept, Wexford did it in June and Waterford did it Saturday night.

The sweeper - we were getting nothing from the extra defender so why not try something different and put three in midfield, or even seven players forward, spread out the play and make Waterford fight man to man for the ball. We needed to try something different.

JJs Left Hand

We pushed forward on the extra Wexford defenders in the league and that only made their half more congested and left more space in our backs for them to crucify us. The idea is to create space not reduce it. This needs the defenders playing the ball into space and needs the forwards to actually ****ing move off the ball which none of our forwards do bar maybe Kevin Kelly. Look at Cadogan yesterday.. He was nearly always 3 or 4 yards ahead of his man making diagonal runs. Great to watch.

Also Village, did Fogarty ride your sister or something because you've a serious vendetta against him.

Dionysis

Regarding the U-21s

There's a lot of work to be done with that team if they are to stand a chance of winning that competition, which looking at the raw talent, they should.
Firstly I thought that the wexford side gave us the worst of the three games we had e we before the man was sent off.
Our backs are the weakest part of that team, Cleere looked good but is not good enough to make the senior centre back position.
Midfield were decent enough as were the forwards. Murphy is barely hanging on to his place and was very average outside of the frees.
The full forward line - well I wouldn't have a go at them as they didn't see much decent ball.
Myself I would have called, Cleere, Morrissey, Scanlon, Leahy, Murphy, Lyng and Walsh over after the game and made it clear to them that the reason the forwards got no goal, was solely down to them, and that the next day they either learn to know when to play decent ball into the full forward line and when to go for points, or there off.
A number of you won't agree with me, but this is a team game, and we need a scoring full forward line and we got a load of wides from our the field, a big score mind ya and crap ball into the full forward line. For this reason it would be unfair to rate the full forward line.

greenspurs

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Also Village, did Fogarty ride your sister or something because you've a serious vendetta against him.

Harsh!
He is allowed an opinion, even if its a bit ott

Not a good display, not a good year.
A lot of work to be done for next year !

Village87

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

We pushed forward on the extra Wexford defenders in the league and that only made their half more congested and left more space in our backs for them to crucify us. The idea is to create space not reduce it. This needs the defenders playing the ball into space and needs the forwards to actually ****ing move off the ball which none of our forwards do bar maybe Kevin Kelly. Look at Cadogan yesterday.. He was nearly always 3 or 4 yards ahead of his man making diagonal runs. Great to watch.

Also Village, did Fogarty ride your sister or something because you've a serious vendetta against him.

No the wife haha..

Vendetta against nobody only analyzing the current state of Kilkenny hurling and what we lack. Fogarty is rated as one of Kilkennys better hurlers and i dont think he justifies that, so lads like him take a bit more slack

Noddy33

The KK tactics and team selection were just completely wrong for this. I rate Rob Lennon but we all know he a big lad so pace not his strong point so the logic of putting him on Waterfords most athletic forward Gleeson was baffling. Also have to wonder where the selection of Jonjo came from. He wasnt good enough to even come on a sub in the the first two games and then all of  a sudden is thrown in to start on Saturday. Training last week would have been more tailored for recovery so couldnt have had a chance in a training match to make a statement.Think Lester was harshly shafted too and after his impressive cameo in Limerick match he had to start again Waterford.

I expect a few players to retire..........think Fennelly, Prender and lester just to name a few might call it quits and then think alot of the fringe players will be let go as a big shake up of the squad is needed. We will always be there or there abouts but dont see us winning the All Ireland for next 2/3 years and need to develop a team around the quality players like Leahy, Buckley and Adrian Mullen

Think Cody will stay on with Dempsey as he knows we have some good young talent coming through but expect changes in Selectors set up but cant see Fogarty returnig

greenspurs

Jaysus, they are really milking it on WLR...
still playing highlights of their World Cup, i mean Qualifier , win .....
#58Years

kk.man

The first part of the rebuilding process is a strong spine. We hadn't had that at all this year. If we got the spine right we could build around it.

brookville

Noddy33 wrote: »

The KK tactics and team selection were just completely wrong for this. I rate Rob Lennon but we all know he a big lad so pace not his strong point so the logic of putting him on Waterfords most athletic forward Gleeson was baffling. Also have to wonder where the selection of Jonjo came from. He wasnt good enough to even come on a sub in the the first two games and then all of  a sudden is thrown in to start on Saturday. Training last week would have been more tailored for recovery so couldnt have had a chance in a training match to make a statement.Think Lester was harshly shafted too and after his impressive cameo in Limerick match he had to start again Waterford.

I expect a few players to retire..........think Fennelly, Prender and lester just to name a few might call it quits and then think alot of the fringe players will be let go as a big shake up of the squad is needed. We will always be there or there abouts but dont see us winning the All Ireland for next 2/3 years and need to develop a team around the quality players like Leahy, Buckley and Adrian Mullen

Think Cody will stay on with Dempsey as he knows we have some good young talent coming through but expect changes in Selectors set up but cant see Fogarty returnig

Agree with most of this especially the farrell and lenno one,to leave lennon on gleeson was madness
After all the experience our management and most of our players just can't cope with sweepers
I definitely think our Selectors will go maybe someone like the dodger will be brought in
I'd say joyce and pender will go but it'd be hard to blame Joyce if he did,lester might stay and mick Fennelly maybe if bhale win and his captain.

danganabu

brookville wrote: »

mick Fennelly maybe if bhale win and his captain.

Now is probably not the time and all but surely serious thought needs to be given to KK abandoning this silly tradition, its madness.

ttowncat

Agree re jonjo, I couldn't understand why/how he started. He proved in last years' semi final that he does not operate well in swarmed blanket congestion. He got a load of ball in the first 5 mins, he got his lovely diagonal ball to hand on the wing and could only manage an off balance awkward looking shot ( on his good left side!)

Congratulations to Waterford, they were hungrier and better on the night. There was no All Ireland in this KK team anyway and I think they've saved us a humiliation against Tipp or Galway. BUT in saying that I think the most tragic and unfortunate thing about this year and Saturday night was the missed chance to put an end to the sweeper system. I think Fair Play to Cody in honourably trying to beat to the sweeper system (on two occasions) with the first time long ball. If lady luck was on our side Bolger would have gotten something against Wexford and it would have put Davy one step closer to the end. And last Saturday we could have stolen it against Waterford in the last moments of normal time(or TJ missed frees or James Owens first have performance and last free against TJ) Then Waterford and good hurling people would have turned on McGrath and Waterford would appoint their successful U21 hurling manager and they'd be back hurling like they did in the naughties. I have great sympathy for the forwards. Whilst they could be making a few more diagonal runs, where are they supposed to run to? Across the sweeper or out to the 45/65 flags into the retreating wave? TJ won a low ball the other night in a central position and had to bounce off about 5 fellas just to get his head up to find someone free. Cadogan got great space and runs against them only because Waterford were on the brink of moving away from sweeper clogging style. While Waterford and Wexford have won nothing, a victory over KK is the same as the victories for Donegal football over Kerry and Dublin in the last few years-Donegal won nothing in those years but blanket sweeping was considered a huge success and copied by all. Even the commentary of the media and elders of Hurling have eased up on the sweeper blanket system, they're beginning to accept it, only two years ago they were blasting McGrath out of it... but now he's a magician/masterstroke. It's already seeping into and becoming more prevalent in club hurling. Once again fair play to Cody in trying to prove that traditional long ball over the blanket sweeper would prevail (you hear that phrase a lot in football btw) Last year, Tipp beat the Waterford sweeper with long high ball putting him on the back foot, it does work. But kilkenny gave in a lot of low long ball to the full forward last Saturday which De Burca was able to attack or with some great catches.

Catch 22 with team selection. It's no place for fellas with a light build against the Waterford blanket, no place for a lad like Kevin Kelly.. then if you go with strength like Lennon or Joyce your left with slow fellas who aren't comfortable being dragged into the middle of the pitch.
The three injured lads this year were found out (Mick F, P Walsh, R Hogan). They fatigued and were caught for some sloppy mistakes that led to scores directly or indirectly against us.
Cody could try and put out a load of cones and get lads running in waves in all directions around the half forward line but I don't think it's in a lot of our lads make up to run around like that ( Blanch, Wally, Richie, Fogarty, Deegan Lennon, old Mick Fenn) On a hopeful note it does seem to be in the U21 team- this kind of run and handpass to a man on the shoulder starting in the half back line and ending in a long distance score, often on the opposite side of the field to where it started. Hopefully hurling doesn't go this way. I never thought I'd say this but I hope Tipp or Galway trounce the sweeper systems to death, even though I've Waterford blood and would have supported them for years.

Nickindublin

I think we need to look at the year in a whole. It's been really poor. Players first touch was very poor and management and selectors have questions to answer around training, tactics, injuries and player/team selections. It's very hard to pinpoint from a distant what has gone wrong. We can only speculate. It maybe just staleness has set in.

The positives for me was the players never gave up. The U21 and Minor teams are showing promise.

I think for next year Cody needs to change his selectors. I think also he will need to change the squad and cut loose some of the guys who have been there a while but never quite made it. I do honestly believe we have as good a first 15 as any other county. But for some reason or another it just never happened this year.

Village87

Nickindublin wrote: »

I think we need to look at the year in a whole. It's been really poor. Players first touch was very poor and management and selectors have questions to answer around training, tactics, injuries and player/team selections. It's very hard to pinpoint from a distant what has gone wrong. We can only speculate. It maybe just staleness has set in.

The positives for me was the players never gave up. The U21 and Minor teams are showing promise.

I think for next year Cody needs to change his selectors. I think also he will need to change the squad and cut loose some of the guys who have been there a while but never quite made it. I do honestly believe we have as good a first 15 as any other county. But for some reason or another it just never happened this year.

Not to many positives to take really, hopefully a few u21s play a more prominent role next year. TJ will be 31 next year and Richie Hogan will be 30, Mick Fennelly 33. Have to start looking at players coming through now. Adrian Mullen and Richie Leahy should be starting Championship next year, we have to back the youth, never been really Cody's way but we have no choice now, Kilkenny need 5 r 6 lads with really quick hurling to freshen things up. Too many palyers on the team are not up to the skill level required to compete at the highest level, they may be hard working and fit but not the hurling that is required to win All Irelands

longshotvalue

All that happened here is we finally see what happens when Richie Hogan or TJ just dont pull it out of the fire on their own.

In the not so distant past Richie could be counted on for 4-5 points from play (half of them with his arse on the ground)

If he can ever get back to full fitness we wont be that far away. Its very clear that Lester should be starting now. I can understand that it is difficult to give up such a useful and resourceful sub who can fill almost any position, but he has been our best forward for the last 3 games, and for the modern game he has an engine for getting back and forward .

We probably have enough players still if we can add 1-2 more to be competitive next year for sure.

My gut is Tipp are going to clean everyone out fairly easily, which is a pity.

laneykin

Anyone heading in to the Intermediates match on Wednesday in the park? Wonder when the team will be announced?

kk.man

Here's another change is required for next year. Eoin Murphy(whom i rate highly) is well capable of giving short accurate puck outs. The game has changed and he should be allowed do that.

My rant is over now!

2forjoy

If he's not allowed give short puck outs then its a huge miscarriage of justice.
Look at how well the short puck out has worked for other teams this year.

brookville

kk.man wrote: »

Here's another change is required for next year. Eoin Murphy(whom i rate highly) is well capable of giving short accurate puck outs. The game has changed and he should be allowed do that.

My rant is over now!

Nash can ping puck ours 60 yards to a player we balloon hail mary balls down plus I don't think we're comfortable playing that kinda game we're so used to lads like henry gortha etc winning it cleanly.

minty81

Just trying to figure out the logic to a couple of things
Richie Reid wears an outfield 16 for the wex game and comes on in last few mins at corner forward.
Obviously has little time to make any impact but then for next 2 games he's back to being sub goalie. What changed?

And there were 9 forwards used in both wex and limk games, Johnjo not used in either but now suddenly good enough to start?
I just can't understand the logic of these calls

brookville

minty81 wrote: »

Just trying to figure out the logic to a couple of things
Richie Reid wears an outfield 16 for the wex game and comes on in last few mins at corner forward.
Obviously has little time to make any impact but then for next 2 games he's back to being sub goalie. What changed?

And there were 9 forwards used in both wex and limk games, Johnjo not used in either but now suddenly good enough to start?
I just can't understand the logic of these calls

I've no doubt cody got it wrong on the line last weekend and against wexford starting injured players on both occasions we were well bet despite the scoreboard we wouldn't of won either match anyway.
Lads have to remember the amount of hurling most of these lads have done there not machines they've always came back year after year but this year we were well off in league and championship.the writing was on the wall after the league in the park after the wexford match that should of being our warning.
Last year's final seems to have scarred players and management
The long break will do us the world of good but it's important we get good selectors to help some of our coaching especially things like 3 lads going for 1 ball,good delivery from the backs or diagonal balls.
I'm confident there's good players coming who should help our cause next year

pmy.murphy

Management got a lot of things wrong this year and quite frankly in my opinion panicked after last years All Ireland and completely lost the plot. The two biggest mistakes were not bringing in enough of the U21 players during the league campaign, we can ill afford this stubborness in our current state as we dont possess the embarassment of riches we had in the noughties. The second biggest mistake was tactically between playing lads in wrong positions, playing players who have had chance after chance and will never be good enough, wrong match ups such as Gleeson on Lennon as an example which comes to mind and the players themselves just generally lacking a clear sense of direction in their play with their braindead delivery of the ball. This all comes from a management team who has quite frankly lost the plot.

However despite losing the plot this year, calling for peoples heads especially Brian Cody is nothing short of ridiculous. This is the greatest manager of all time for christ sake. He has shown time and time again in the past he has what it takes to learn and rebuild such as our failures in 2001, 2005, and 2013 especially. Maybe he didnt feel the need for wholesale changes this year considering we were in the final last year but it has gone wrong nonetheless. This year should finally make him realise that. If same mistakes are made in the next year or two then perhaps then questions should be asked.

Going forward, play lads in their best positions, get rid of those off the panel who have had numerous chances and are quite obviously never going to be good enough and finally trust in the youth that is coming through. Perhaps freshening up the backroom team would be a good idea perhaps bringing in an extra face with a different approach such as Henry couldnt do any harm

kk.man

brookville wrote: »

Nash can ping puck ours 60 yards to a player we balloon hail mary balls down plus I don't think we're comfortable playing that kinda game we're so used to lads like henry gortha etc winning it cleanly.

+1 But we haven't got a Henry and Gorta

Justice for the individual

Dionysis wrote: »

KK's backs lacked that raw aggression that should be there but isn't. When the ball comes into our back line especially our full back line our backs should be swarming all over it, Saturday night they were like lambs.

Midfield - forever and a day I'm saying now that our half back, midfield and half forward lines leave opposition players free in the middle third. The opposition destroy us in this area each game. Tipp did it last Sept, Wexford did it in June and Waterford did it Saturday night.

The sweeper - we were getting nothing from the extra defender so why not try something different and put three in midfield, or even seven players forward, spread out the play and make Waterford fight man to man for the ball. We needed to try something different.

Drop a half forward back to strengthen midfield and leave the full forwards deep up near the opposition goal, but with the corner forwards playing wide. That way, options of dropping the ball in to the full forward or diagonal passes out wide.

That would leave the sweeper having to cover back deeper, and also having to deal with say two midfielders or fast nippy half backs breaking forward. The U21's were using these tactics against Wexford, with Jason Cleere coming all the way forward to score 2 points.

All the forwards moving early looking for a pass or drawing the backs out, like our U21's last Wednesday and Cork were doing yesterday.

Hurling is a simple game, but coaches are complicating things with complex systems leading to confusion with over elaboration.

dubcat51

Justice for the individual wrote: »

Drop a half forward back to strengthen midfield and leave the full forwards deep up near the opposition goal, but with the corner forwards playing wide. That way, options of dropping the ball in to the full forward or diagonal passes out wide.

That would leave the sweeper having to cover back deeper, and also having to deal with say two midfielders or fast nippy half backs breaking forward. The U21's were using these tactics against Wexford, with Jason Cleere coming all the way forward to score 2 points.

All the forwards moving early looking for a pass or drawing the backs out, like our U21's last Wednesday and Cork were doing yesterday.

Hurling is a simple game, but coaches are complicating things with complex systems leading to confusion with over elaboration.

Just play the players in their best positions .hiw many points did buckley and walsh score last year in the chamlionship compared to this year.over reaction to last year.walsh joyce and buckley lost their first game (when all 3 started on the half back line)in ladt years all ireland final.since then walsh had gone to 3 joyce hardly starts and buckley plays 6 or midfield.mad stuff

greenspurs

How about getting fast Eddie onto the Senior management/Selector set up?

No better man to help sort out the forwards, and obviously doing a great job with the U21's.
He can also help bring along some of the (previously named) U21's that can potentially make the step up to Senior.

What yee think ?

Kenajonn

greenspurs wrote: »

How about getting fast Eddie onto the Senior management/Selector set up?

No better man to help sort out the forwards, and obviously doing a great job with the U21's.
He can also help bring along some of the (previously named) U12's that can potentially make the step up to Senior.

What yee think ?

May be a bit young

brookville

greenspurs wrote: »

How about getting fast Eddie onto the Senior management/Selector set up?

No better man to help sort out the forwards, and obviously doing a great job with the U21's.
He can also help bring along some of the (previously named) U12's that can potentially make the step up to Senior.

What yee think ?

Maybe but eddie is a bit unproven and this is a very talented crop of u21s.I'd like to see the dodger on board his after doing wonders with carlow.I definitely think there has to be a shake up and any dead wood will have to be cleared out

greenspurs

Kenajonn wrote: »

May be a bit young

Shur start em early......
*corrected age now

Village87

laneykin wrote: »

Anyone heading in to the Intermediates match on Wednesday in the park? Wonder when the team will be announced?

Dont Know anything about Kilkenny, think they can only pick from Junior & Intermediate so i suppose most of the team will be Carrickshock, Tullogher, Glenmore, Tullaroan & Ballyragget.

Wexford cantb field a team i heard yesterday so match may be called off

northern lad

brookville wrote: »

Maybe but eddie is a bit unproven and this is a very talented crop of u21s.I'd like to see the dodger on board his after doing wonders with carlow.I definitely think there has to be a shake up and any dead wood will have to be cleared out

I'm not sure bringing in former players is the way to go at all. Martin Fogarty came from a background of underage coaching in Comer, schools coaching, KK squads and then KK U21 management. His acquired experience and know how added immensely to the senior set up. None of that expertise can be fast tracked whether you hurled under Cody or not. When a very fortright Michael Fennelly was putting Richie Hogan back on last Saturday, the above mentioned know how, experience and expertise was sorely missing on the sideline beside Brian. Great players may or may not become great managers / selectors but you have to learn your trade. So Brian should be looking for a Fogarty type. Look across the water ... Klopp told Gerrard to start by managing the minors!

Dionysis

Not so sure on Eddie Brennan. Not impressed so far on what he has done with a savagely talented U-21side.

Would think that at least 50% of this years poor display is down to player fatigue, the older experienced ones were in the last three all-irelands. And am firm on the fact as I said a number of weeks ago that an early exit might just give this team so energy back for next year.
The opportunity is now there for Cody ( leaving aside the more experienced 15 on the team) to pick a group of lads to bring back early, i.e. November and begin pushing these new/young lads, to have them right for the league. They'll need to be pushed to be able to compete with the more experienced/stronger players on other sides, but pushing them early will compensate for that. Then come the League keep playing them, and keep pushing the must win mentality in these young lads. Come championship when the older lads are back we will have options. The same needs to be done for the U-21 squad. We need to bring on the talent ( post 18 years of age) quicker, to support the U-21 and senior teams quicker, for the foreseeable future. If our U-21 team loses this year it will be down to coaching team work and lack of a physical presence, as they have the raw talent. Clare won three all-Ireland U-21s by being fitter and more physical than other teams, along with a certain level of talent granted. But as you can see now, when fitness and talent even up at senior level, there not head and shoulders above the rest as the natural ability is lacking.

Dionysis

Not so sure on Eddie Brennan. Not impressed so far on what he has done with a savagely talented U-21side.

Would think that at least 50% of this years poor display is down to player fatigue, the older experienced ones were in the last three all-irelands. And am firm on the fact as I said a number of weeks ago that an early exit might just give this team so energy back for next year.
The opportunity is now there for Cody ( leaving aside the more experienced 15 on the team) to pick a group of lads to bring back early, i.e. November and begin pushing these new/young lads, to have them right for the league. They'll need to be pushed to be able to compete with the more experienced/stronger players on other sides, but pushing them early will compensate for that. Then come the League keep playing them, and keep pushing the must win mentality in these young lads. Come championship when the older lads are back we will have options. The same needs to be done for the U-21 squad. We need to bring on the talent ( post 18 years of age) quicker, to support the U-21 and senior teams quicker, for the foreseeable future. If our U-21 team loses this year it will be down to coaching team work and lack of a physical presence, as they have the raw talent. Clare won three all-Ireland U-21s by being fitter and more physical than other teams, along with a certain level of talent granted. But as you can see now, when fitness and talent even up at senior level, there not head and shoulders above the rest as the natural ability is lacking.

Dionysis

Another issue that needs to be resolved is lack of primary possession - aerial ability. Kk have gone from being very good to very poor at this. Only TJ in the forwards can compete for the ball. We need another Gorta in there, so we need to look across the three grades for another target man. He may not be the long term solution, but we need another target man.

greenspurs

northern lad wrote: »

When a very fortright Michael Fennelly was putting Richie Hogan back on last Saturday, the above mentioned know how, experience !

Can anyone explain why a very off form, half injured player , that was completely off the pace of the game, was brought back on then ??

Were our options that limited ??

Village87

Good post Dionysis,

Competition has to be brought back in the panel, the last 3/4 lads that went, left on there own accord. Lads injured playing etc, lads with indiscipline problems playing. Lads who are not playing well for there clubs left on the panel the last few years. This all seeps to performances that Kilkenny have produced this year

danganabu

greenspurs wrote: »

How about getting fast Eddie onto the Senior management/Selector set up?

No better man to help sort out the forwards, and obviously doing a great job with the U21's.
He can also help bring along some of the (previously named) U21's that can potentially make the step up to Senior.

What yee think ?

Really? He oversaw a defeat to Westmeath in his first year and has overseen a team this year that considering the opposition in Leinster and the team KK have, they could have managed themselves!

Eddie was involved with a club team in Tipp 2 years ago and the feedback I heard and the actual results on the field left a lot to be desired, nice man though anytime I have met him.

brookville

danganabu wrote: »

Really? He oversaw a defeat to Westmeath in his first year and has overseen a team this year that considering the opposition in Leinster and the team KK have, they could have managed themselves!

Eddie was involved with a club team in Tipp 2 years ago and the feedback I heard and the actual results on the field left a lot to be desired, nice man though anytime I have met him.

Dj could be an option he has good record with it carlow after that I don't really know there's not many I can think of but we definitely need freshness

danganabu

brookville wrote: »

Dj could be an option he has good record with it carlow after that I don't really know there's not many I can think of but we definitely need freshness

True, I know from talking to one or two of the Laois guys that were involved that they spoke very highly of him.

castletownman

Lads, genuine question. How highly rated is TJ within the county?

Found myself in a (stubborn) debate with the club-mates at the weekend, where I was of the opinion that as a large bulk of his scoring is from dead-balls, as such he should be regarded as over-rated as one of the best forwards in the game.

Have been intrigued as to whether I was right in my assessment, and came across interesting stats. As we all know, Kilkenny didn't win the All-Ireland the last two years (come on lads, what's going on there ), and while Reid was their top scorer over that period with 4-76 over the two championships, only 1-8 of that tally came from play (the goal a one-yard tap in on Saturday night).

In the two previous years when Kilkenny won the AI, he compiled just under 34% of his overall tally from play in 2014, and 41% of his total from play in his "Hurler of the Year" campaign in 2015. As an impact sub in the great teams in the early part of his career, he ONLY scored from play.

Now I am not as well-versed in the inner workings of the hurling world, but as an outsider looking in I don't see him as influential from play (in terms of overall creativity and ability to produce an audacious point from play at a crucial juncture) as other Cats' forwards of Cody's era. I mean, "yeah but he only scored ___ from play" is one of the great criticisms within the GAA, and one you hear the whole time to belittle the scoring feats of a club player or a star from a lesser county (I've seen it used in Wexford circles the whole time). Never hear the same levelled at Reid though.

I would be of the opinion that the overall standard of the squad has naturally dwindled with all the great players having called it a day, and as a result it isn't enough to "carry" a dead-ball specialist.

Don't get me wrong, he is close to a pro as is possible in terms of dead-ball consistency in the game today (although he missed two "handy" frees against Wexford, and at least one against Waterford too), and is the best penalty taker I have seen since the new rule came in, but I don't know if I would rank him as one of the top forwards in the game.

FWIW, the six best KK forwards of my life time would line-up as follows: DJ-Henry-Larkin; Brennan-Comerford/Power-Hogan

Realt Dearg Sec

He has been, by a considerable distance, our best forward all year. He has been the only one able to field ball, he creates opportunities for other players by drawing the man and placing great passes (set up Wally nicely a few times at the weekend), his workrate is absolutely phenomenal, he creates havoc with or without possession, and the biggest problem we have at the moment is our over reliance on him to make something happen. No way is he being carried for his frees. Quite the contrary, he is carrying a lot of weight that other forwards are not. There's no player on the team right now who sold be a bigger loss if we didn't have him than tj Reid.

Village87

castletownman wrote: »

Lads, genuine question. How highly rated is TJ within the county?

Found myself in a (stubborn) debate with the club-mates at the weekend, where I was of the opinion that as a large bulk of his scoring is from dead-balls, as such he should be regarded as over-rated as one of the best forwards in the game.

Have been intrigued as to whether I was right in my assessment, and came across interesting stats. As we all know, Kilkenny didn't win the All-Ireland the last two years (come on lads, what's going on there ), and while Reid was their top scorer over that period with 4-76 over the two championships, only 1-8 of that tally came from play (the goal a one-yard tap in on Saturday night).

In the two previous years when Kilkenny won the AI, he compiled just under 34% of his overall tally from play in 2014, and 41% of his total from play in his "Hurler of the Year" campaign in 2015. As an impact sub in the great teams in the early part of his career, he ONLY scored from play.

Now I am not as well-versed in the inner workings of the hurling world, but as an outsider looking in I don't see him as influential from play (in terms of overall creativity and ability to produce an audacious point from play at a crucial juncture) as other Cats' forwards of Cody's era. I mean, "yeah but he only scored ___ from play" is one of the great criticisms within the GAA, and one you hear the whole time to belittle the scoring feats of a club player or a star from a lesser county (I've seen it used in Wexford circles the whole time). Never hear the same levelled at Reid though.

I would be of the opinion that the overall standard of the squad has naturally dwindled with all the great players having called it a day, and as a result it isn't enough to "carry" a dead-ball specialist.

Don't get me wrong, he is close to a pro as is possible in terms of dead-ball consistency in the game today (although he missed two "handy" frees against Wexford, and at least one against Waterford too), and is the best penalty taker I have seen since the new rule came in, but I don't know if I would rank him as one of the top forwards in the game.

FWIW, the six best KK forwards of my life time would line-up as follows: DJ-Henry-Larkin; Brennan-Comerford/Power-Hogan

Id rate TJ as the best ever club hurler in Kilkenny.
As for Intercounty TJ is carrying this team, winning ball, work rate, great man for a pass. One of the reasons the sweeper works against us is that an opposition defender can sacrifice his game and follow and spoil TJ everywhere he goes with the sweeper picking up the breaks. TJ is better than Eoin Larkin, Gorta, Hogan & Brennan.

Faugheen

TJ is a supremely talented hurler. If you take scoring out he still possesses excellent stick work, vision, strength and awareness of his team-mates are.

He's also very good under a high ball. A lot better than he's given credit for. A lot of teams who employ a sweeper tend to use it to double up on him as well.

Yes, his scoring stats don't look all that impressive from play but when you've had players like Hogan, Larkin, the Fennellys, Aylward, the Powers et al in recent years then all TJ needs to do is keep the scoreboard ticking over from the dead ball, of which there are very few better and more consistent than him.

castletownman

Thanks lads. Queries firmly answered.

Hawkeye6

People will see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. It is human nature. Did Brian Cody push the fourth official or did the fourth official physically restrain Brain Cody as he chased the terrified Derek McGrath back into his dugout? Interestingly, it seemed to trigger an improved performance from James Owens, until opportunity arose in injury time. But let’s not get hung up the officials and get our own house in order.

Quote from a Kilkenny poster from last week in relation to my post about football, midfield and club responsibility. “And the five skills of football, pulling, dragging, bunching, fighting, and weight lifting.” I don’t want to credit the post to anyone in particular as it may be taken personally even though it is a typically Kilkenny view of football. I will return to this in a while.

Kilkenny are out of the senior hurling Championship 2017. Fact, I’m afraid. There are, as usual a wide variety of views and again people saw what they wanted to see. What did I see? I saw a typical Brian Cody led team who refused to give up and almost snatched it in normal time. Oh dear for TJ Reids missed free… I saw a Cody team where the players lead. What other county could have an injured player come down out of the stands and make a suggestion to their manager which would appear to have been heeded, rightly or wrongly. That’s not the Cody that has been painted for years? Or was it painted correctly. You’ve all got your own answer.

Without wishing to criticise individuals who gave there all and showed huge spirit (Cody-esque) regardless of the result, here are some other specifics I saw. Those of you who want to take the time to search my posts during league on the Padraig Walsh full back experiment will see, I was always of the opinion that this was a disaster waiting to happen. I see many of you now agree. But many also want new selectors. Are we to take it that most of you think it is now McGarry and Lyng that are at fault? The alone came up with this option for full back. Is that what you see? You may not have posted it in the one post but logic dictates or that’s what I see. I also notice recently people talking about the knee jerk reaction to moving Joey Holden out of full back after the All-Ireland. I was a supporter of Joey to remain at full back as you will see from previous posts, but supporter power made Joey the scapegoat. The management got the vibe and I wonder now was this their biggest error. Maybe they should have stayed faithful to what they saw.

General consensus, Buckley was excellent. General consensus, the delivery of the ball to the forwards was terrible. What I saw. Buckley had a huge amount of possession. Our forwards were man marked plus one (sweeper De Burca). We all knew this before a ball was hit. Buckley gets ball moves forward ponderously, looking for a free forward. Logic dictates at this level and that setup, even with movement it is near impossible to get free. As he ponders. Waterford move back more reinforcements. Space is gone. Buckley hits it anyway. The forwards get the blame for not moving. Pauric Maher, same situation, ball over the bar. Austin Gleeson, ball over the bar. Ok possibly a few wides, but the more you shoot the more you score. He got five with mad shots. What did Buckley get for all his possession?

General consensus, Lester Ryan was brilliant and should have started. Mick Fennelly was not at his best. What I saw... Lester was good on the ball, but switched off when he didn’t have the ball. Did anyone notice him when Jamie Barron was making his runs from midfield for the first point of extra time and the first vital goal? Is it a coincidence that when Mick Fennelly, whom I said previously is the only proper inter county midfielder in Kilkenny, went off, that we fell apart very quickly, especially in midfield. What would have happened to our midfield if Fennelly hadn’t started at all? How many runs would Barron have made, resulting in scores? People see what they want to see. Do the management team see the same flaws in Lester regarding his overall concentration?

A lot of people want new selectors now. Some want to see Cody go and a modern coach/manager in place. Do we really? The selectors are Derek Lyng and James McGarry. Are we saying these are the culprits for team selection? Out of nowhere the finger is pointed at them. How does anyone know what these men contribute? Kilkenny squad is shrouded in secrecy. Who knows what the dynamics are? Maybe Mick Fennelly is a closet selector or just a player empowered. You want a modern coach/manager. You mean somebody who plays a sweeper... God no!! Well I’m afraid that is what the modern coach is doing. You can’t on one hand say, No sweepers for Kilkenny and on the other hand look for a modern coach. How many Kilkenny clubs are playing a sweeper system in their adult teams? How often at club level do players get the opportunity to play against or with the system? It goes back to my previous posts and Kilkenny club coaches stuck in their ways. Brian Cody, Lyng and McGarry cannot fix this. Kilkenny Senior Camogie team operate a sweeper system and is starting to bring success (last 3 national titles and a provincial title already). Their sweeper is a top class forward in Ann Dalton. Some Kilkenny Camogie clubs are doing it too. Kilkenny hurling clubs may need to think about its use and forget about stubborn tradition. Yes, I see the clubs as the main issue to style of play. It is hard for the county to get the players to play a type of game that is alien to what they are doing with their club, regardless of ability. Think of your own club and how they set themselves up… Or should Kilkenny hurling bring in Ann Downey and her management team?

Get rid of Cody... It will happen someday. I don’t wish for it any day soon. I look at history, Kerry after Dwyer, Meath after Boylan, Man U after Ferguson. It is the price you pay for a long run of success thanks to a great manager. The successors do not have the experience. On the other hand, I look at the Liverpool boot room, where the successor was already there within. Ok eventually they broke that too, but would I rush to dump McGarry or Lyng given the experience they are building up. No, I wouldn’t, but that’s not the way everyone sees it obviously.

Some people saw it as better to be beaten now than later. I didn’t see it that way. I never want to be beaten and nor does the Kilkenny management team. It is 100 years since Dublin beat Tipperary in a championship match. Waterford has never ever beaten Kilkenny in a championship match in normal time. Statistically a sequence doesn’t have to end. Cork are flying. They were in the league too. They could go all the way. This Kilkenny team beat Cork in the league at a time when Cork was going well and Kilkenny were allegedly going very bad. Why would you want to see Kilkenny lose at any stage? What would stop us from beating Crok again?

Back to “And the five skills of football, pulling, dragging, bunching, fighting, and weight lifting.” I saw a game on Saturday. There was an incredible amount of jersey pulling and dragging players around the neck. I saw a huge amount of bunching, rucks, melees and a blanket defence. I saw at one stage a referee throw a ball three times into a ruck wasting valuable playing time. I saw players swarming forward running off the shoulder. I saw goalkeepers playing short ball out to the corner backs. Yes football,… NO it wasn’t!!! it was a modern hurling match in Thurles. Again Kilkenny supporters and clubs need to change the traditional cultural view of hurling. It is possible to train for the modern game without playing football, but I guarantee, the players will not enjoy it as much, especially your average club player. Some traditionalists say they will not watch hurling if it continues the way it is. I don’t care how Kilkenny win as long as they win and within the rules. I enjoyed the Camogie team winning with a sweeper. Is there much of a difference between Anthony Nash and Stephen Cluxton in the kick out/puck out? Until some clubs take on the sweeper system, there is no platform for other clubs to figure and test out how to beat the system. You need the disease before you find the cure.

The way I see it, the culture of the Kilkenny supporters who in most cases is a Club person has to change. The snobbery against football, the snobbery against a sweeper, the snobbery against blanket defences needs to change. Like all systems, eventually it will be broken, but it will take time. From junior to senior this year the focus should be on the “system” the club teams uses rather than the individual hurlers. The hurlers will stand out anyway skill wise, but are our players getting exposure to the type of game being played at inter county level anymore? We all know we have the playing talent, but will they all be neutralised by not being able to play the modern inter county game. It starts here, Sideline watch for club games 2017… It might throw up a few potential successors for Cody if that’s what people want.

I will finish with four questions, 2 asked previously, but no suggestions submitted yet.
1. Who should replace Brian Cody as manager?
2. Who are the good midfielders coming through in Kilkenny?
3. Who are the great selectors to replace McGarry and Lyng?
4. Who are the Kilkenny club coaches or other Kilkenny coaches who are embracing the changes of the modern game?

Hurling has changed. Traditionalists including myself may not like it so much. The feel of Winning hasn’t, but there is no point in yearning for the days of old, unless you have a way of bringing that type of hurling back. All the above is a sample of what I see or saw. I’m sure you all saw whatever you wanted to see it...