Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

v3ttel

greenspurs wrote: »

How about getting fast Eddie onto the Senior management/Selector set up?

No better man to help sort out the forwards, and obviously doing a great job with the U21's.
He can also help bring along some of the (previously named) U21's that can potentially make the step up to Senior.

What yee think ?

Knee jerk reaction IMHO.

A year ago Eddie's stock was as low as it could possibly be after the U21 lost to Westmeath, fast forward 12 months and he is the answer to our senior problems. That's all a bit too reactionary for my liking. He needs more time before coming into the senior setup.

greenspurs

v3ttel wrote: »

Knee jerk reaction IMHO.

A year ago Eddie's stock was as low as it could possibly be after the U21 lost to Westmeath, fast forward 12 months and he is the answer to our senior problems. That's all a bit too reactionary for my liking. He needs more time before coming into the senior setup.

OR...
Has he progressed the Team that were beaten by Westmeath last year ..? And they are now playing to their potential ?

greenspurs

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

People will see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. It is human nature. Did Brian Cody push the fourth official or did the fourth official physically restrain Brain Cody as he chased the terrified Derek McGrath back into his dugout? Interestingly, it seemed to trigger an improved performance from James Owens, until opportunity arose in injury time. But let’s not get hung up the officials and get our own house in order.

Quote from a Kilkenny poster from last week in relation to my post about football, midfield and club responsibility. “And the five skills of football, pulling, dragging, bunching, fighting, and weight lifting.” I don’t want to credit the post to anyone in particular as it may be taken personally even though it is a typically Kilkenny view of football. I will return to this in a while.

Kilkenny are out of the senior hurling Championship 2017. Fact, I’m afraid. There are, as usual a wide variety of views and again people saw what they wanted to see. What did I see? I saw a typical Brian Cody led team who refused to give up and almost snatched it in normal time. Oh dear for TJ Reids missed free… I saw a Cody team where the players lead. What other county could have an injured player come down out of the stands and make a suggestion to their manager which would appear to have been heeded, rightly or wrongly. That’s not the Cody that has been painted for years? Or was it painted correctly. You’ve all got your own answer.

Without wishing to criticise individuals who gave there all and showed huge spirit (Cody-esque) regardless of the result, here are some other specifics I saw. Those of you who want to take the time to search my posts during league on the Padraig Walsh full back experiment will see, I was always of the opinion that this was a disaster waiting to happen. I see many of you now agree. But many also want new selectors. Are we to take it that most of you think it is now McGarry and Lyng that are at fault? The alone came up with this option for full back. Is that what you see? You may not have posted it in the one post but logic dictates or that’s what I see. I also notice recently people talking about the knee jerk reaction to moving Joey Holden out of full back after the All-Ireland. I was a supporter of Joey to remain at full back as you will see from previous posts, but supporter power made Joey the scapegoat. The management got the vibe and I wonder now was this their biggest error. Maybe they should have stayed faithful to what they saw.

General consensus, Buckley was excellent. General consensus, the delivery of the ball to the forwards was terrible. What I saw. Buckley had a huge amount of possession. Our forwards were man marked plus one (sweeper De Burca). We all knew this before a ball was hit. Buckley gets ball moves forward ponderously, looking for a free forward. Logic dictates at this level and that setup, even with movement it is near impossible to get free. As he ponders. Waterford move back more reinforcements. Space is gone. Buckley hits it anyway. The forwards get the blame for not moving. Pauric Maher, same situation, ball over the bar. Austin Gleeson, ball over the bar. Ok possibly a few wides, but the more you shoot the more you score. He got five with mad shots. What did Buckley get for all his possession?

General consensus, Lester Ryan was brilliant and should have started. Mick Fennelly was not at his best. What I saw... Lester was good on the ball, but switched off when he didn’t have the ball. Did anyone notice him when Jamie Barron was making his runs from midfield for the first point of extra time and the first vital goal? Is it a coincidence that when Mick Fennelly, whom I said previously is the only proper inter county midfielder in Kilkenny, went off, that we fell apart very quickly, especially in midfield. What would have happened to our midfield if Fennelly hadn’t started at all? How many runs would Barron have made, resulting in scores? People see what they want to see. Do the management team see the same flaws in Lester regarding his overall concentration?

A lot of people want new selectors now. Some want to see Cody go and a modern coach/manager in place. Do we really? The selectors are Derek Lyng and James McGarry. Are we saying these are the culprits for team selection? Out of nowhere the finger is pointed at them. How does anyone know what these men contribute? Kilkenny squad is shrouded in secrecy. Who knows what the dynamics are? Maybe Mick Fennelly is a closet selector or just a player empowered. You want a modern coach/manager. You mean somebody who plays a sweeper... God no!! Well I’m afraid that is what the modern coach is doing. You can’t on one hand say, No sweepers for Kilkenny and on the other hand look for a modern coach. How many Kilkenny clubs are playing a sweeper system in their adult teams? How often at club level do players get the opportunity to play against or with the system? It goes back to my previous posts and Kilkenny club coaches stuck in their ways. Brian Cody, Lyng and McGarry cannot fix this. Kilkenny Senior Camogie team operate a sweeper system and is starting to bring success (last 3 national titles and a provincial title already). Their sweeper is a top class forward in Ann Dalton. Some Kilkenny Camogie clubs are doing it too. Kilkenny hurling clubs may need to think about its use and forget about stubborn tradition. Yes, I see the clubs as the main issue to style of play. It is hard for the county to get the players to play a type of game that is alien to what they are doing with their club, regardless of ability. Think of your own club and how they set themselves up… Or should Kilkenny hurling bring in Ann Downey and her management team?

Get rid of Cody... It will happen someday. I don’t wish for it any day soon. I look at history, Kerry after Dwyer, Meath after Boylan, Man U after Ferguson. It is the price you pay for a long run of success thanks to a great manager. The successors do not have the experience. On the other hand, I look at the Liverpool boot room, where the successor was already there within. Ok eventually they broke that too, but would I rush to dump McGarry or Lyng given the experience they are building up. No, I wouldn’t, but that’s not the way everyone sees it obviously.

Some people saw it as better to be beaten now than later. I didn’t see it that way. I never want to be beaten and nor does the Kilkenny management team. It is 100 years since Dublin beat Tipperary in a championship match. Waterford has never ever beaten Kilkenny in a championship match in normal time. Statistically a sequence doesn’t have to end. Cork are flying. They were in the league too. They could go all the way. This Kilkenny team beat Cork in the league at a time when Cork was going well and Kilkenny were allegedly going very bad. Why would you want to see Kilkenny lose at any stage? What would stop us from beating Crok again?

Back to “And the five skills of football, pulling, dragging, bunching, fighting, and weight lifting.” I saw a game on Saturday. There was an incredible amount of jersey pulling and dragging players around the neck. I saw a huge amount of bunching, rucks, melees and a blanket defence. I saw at one stage a referee throw a ball three times into a ruck wasting valuable playing time. I saw players swarming forward running off the shoulder. I saw goalkeepers playing short ball out to the corner backs. Yes football,… NO it wasn’t!!! it was a modern hurling match in Thurles. Again Kilkenny supporters and clubs need to change the traditional cultural view of hurling. It is possible to train for the modern game without playing football, but I guarantee, the players will not enjoy it as much, especially your average club player. Some traditionalists say they will not watch hurling if it continues the way it is. I don’t care how Kilkenny win as long as they win and within the rules. I enjoyed the Camogie team winning with a sweeper. Is there much of a difference between Anthony Nash and Stephen Cluxton in the kick out/puck out? Until some clubs take on the sweeper system, there is no platform for other clubs to figure and test out how to beat the system. You need the disease before you find the cure.

The way I see it, the culture of the Kilkenny supporters who in most cases is a Club person has to change. The snobbery against football, the snobbery against a sweeper, the snobbery against blanket defences needs to change. Like all systems, eventually it will be broken, but it will take time. From junior to senior this year the focus should be on the “system” the club teams uses rather than the individual hurlers. The hurlers will stand out anyway skill wise, but are our players getting exposure to the type of game being played at inter county level anymore? We all know we have the playing talent, but will they all be neutralised by not being able to play the modern inter county game. It starts here, Sideline watch for club games 2017… It might throw up a few potential successors for Cody if that’s what people want.

I will finish with four questions, 2 asked previously, but no suggestions submitted yet.
1. Who should replace Brian Cody as manager?
2. Who are the good midfielders coming through in Kilkenny?
3. Who are the great selectors to replace McGarry and Lyng?
4. Who are the Kilkenny club coaches or other Kilkenny coaches who are embracing the changes of the modern game?

Hurling has changed. Traditionalists including myself may not like it so much. The feel of Winning hasn’t, but there is no point in yearning for the days of old, unless you have a way of bringing that type of hurling back. All the above is a sample of what I see or saw. I’m sure you all saw whatever you wanted to see it...

Its almost, as if, you think questions shouldnt be asked after another season (yes, thats right) of failure...

"We all saw what we wanted to see" ? Obviously. Most people can/will disagree about any topic you care to mention.
Look at Waterford, Last year their own supporters were calling it "Puke Hurling" , "Mcgrath is killing the game" ... "hes ruining the young skilful hurlers" .....
Even up to throw in on Saturday , they were still at it.. "McGraths last game"... "Brick is too old"... "barron is too slow, will never score" ....
"Thats not a team to beat Kilkenny"....

When things dont go right ,supporters of the team in question usually look for negatives, and to blame someone, anyone.
When it goes well .... Genius.

Do Kilkenny have to change? If so , what? Structure of management, Selectors, style of play.... Its a difficult one.

JJs Left Hand

Hawkeye I agree with a lot of what you say but you don't half love yourself do you. The condescension absolutely seeps out of your posts.

danganabu

castletownman wrote: »

Thanks lads. Queries firmly answered.

I think that the best way of putting it is, that if you asked the same question on the Tipp or Cork or Galway thread you would pretty much get the same replies, he is a sublime hurler and if KK had one or two more of him they wouldn't be looking at 2018 already.

mountgomery burns

greenspurs wrote: »

Its almost, as if, you think questions shouldnt be asked after another season (yes, thats right) of failure...

"We all saw what we wanted to see" ? Obviously. Most people can/will disagree about any topic you care to mention.
Look at Waterford, Last year their own supporters were calling it "Puke Hurling" , "Mcgrath is killing the game" ... "hes ruining the young skilful hurlers" .....
Even up to throw in on Saturday , they were still at it.. "McGraths last game"... "Brick is too old"... "barron is too slow, will never score" ....
"Thats not a team to beat Kilkenny"....

When things dont go right ,supporters of the team in question usually look for negatives, and to blame someone, anyone.
When it goes well .... Genius.

Do Kilkenny have to change? If so , what? Structure of management, Selectors, style of play.... Its a difficult one.

Barron is too slow??? Who said that, I need to have a word.

danganabu

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Barron is too slow??? Who said that, I need to have a word.

That was what jumped out at me straight away as well, possibly think he might have meant Moran though??

greenspurs

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Barron is too slow??? Who said that, I need to have a word.

Sorry , my mistake .. !!! I meant Dillon !!!! :P:confused: ...

“In the half forwards, I took a note after 20 minutes that Jake Dillon was not at the races and should be replaced, which was not done until the 47th minute. Dillon’s lack of pace and height are a major double disadvantage.”

as posted by someone on the Waterford forum ....

mountgomery burns

greenspurs wrote: »

Sorry , my mistake .. !!! I meant Dillon !!!! :P:confused: ...

“In the half forwards, I took a note after 20 minutes that Jake Dillon was not at the races and should be replaced, which was not done until the 47th minute. Dillon’s lack of pace and height are a major double disadvantage.”

as posted by someone on the Waterford forum ....

Ah right that makes more sense. For what its worth, pace is definitely not his strongest asset but he played well on Saturday to be fair to him which was great to see. He's many peoples favourite scapegoat.

Hawkeye6

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Hawkeye I agree with a lot of what you say but you don't half love yourself do you. The condescension absolutely seeps out of your posts.

I am sorry about the condescension. But isn't everyone who posts here condescending, believing that their view is the right one. Why post if you don't believ in what your posting?

For example here is a Reply of yours from 21 June to somebody. You sound adamant and condescending, but I get what your saying.

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that our club was told the clubs don't select them anymore and that the U14 selectors would be at the Kilkenny Feile weekend and the panel was to be picked after that. .

Anyway, sorry don't want to get into fiddly bit of rows over tone. I ended my posts with questions for others to debate. the content is there to debate if you want, here or down the local field or in the local.

Joe_ Public

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Get rid of Cody... It will happen someday. I don’t wish for it any day soon. I look at history, Kerry after Dwyer, Meath after Boylan, Man U after Ferguson. It is the price you pay for a long run of success thanks to a great manager. The successors do not have the experience. On the other hand, I look at the Liverpool boot room, where the successor was already there within. Ok eventually they broke that too, but would I rush to dump McGarry or Lyng given the experience they are building up. No, I wouldn’t, but that’s not the way everyone sees it obviously.

There is a lot I would agree with in your post and this bit in particular. It's always been in my mind that Kilkenny would face a problem of succession after BC, as in the cases you have referenced. I'm very happy with the model we have in Tipp, where a guy like Mick Ryan was eased and nurtured through the ranks until he was ready for the top job. It's not just players that need to be nurtured. If and when Ryan goes, we'll likely have Liam Cahill to step in and take things on. Doesn't always work as smoothly as you'd like, of course, but it does make the odds that bit better.

There are obviously good coaches in Kilkenny, and guys with good ideas, but I think it's unavoidable that there is going to be a void and Cody's shadow will hang over any new appointment, whenever it happens. Maybe that's just a price that has to be paid for such an unprecedented run of success. Most of us would have accepted that deal fairly willingly I would have thought!

JJs Left Hand

Touché

minty81

Who would be in the running if Cody was to bring in a new coach next year?
I really don't see a huge depth of options.
The kk man with the most impressive record at club level over last few years is Tom Mulally. An outrageous record with MLR, Clara and Glenmore. I don't think last weeks performance over wexford u-21's should damage his reputation too much.
Who would be the other contenders if Cody was to bring in a new hurling coach (as opposed to a strength & conditioning coach)
On the issue of selectors, the real question is what say these have. Does anyone hold much sway with Cody? If not then doesn't make much of a difference who is in the role

Realt Dearg Sec

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

I am sorry about the condescension. But isn't everyone who posts here condescending, believing that their view is the right one. Why post if you don't believ in what your posting?

For example here is a Reply of yours from 21 June to somebody. You sound adamant and condescending, but I get what your saying.



Anyway, sorry don't want to get into fiddly bit of rows over tone. I ended my posts with questions for others to debate. the content is there to debate if you want, here or down the local field or in the local.

Twas I said the thing about football that you quoted. Was just a joke, the substantive point you were making is a fair one, there probably are benefits to playing more football in the county (I know in our club the lads who play football often have a bit of an edge in fitness in addition to the benefits you're discussing in terms of spatial awareness that is suited to the way the game is increasingly being played)

blackcard

At u21 level, KK have won 11 AI in 53 years since its inception in 1964, an average of just over two per decade.
At minor level, KK have won 21 AI in 9 decades, an average of 2.3 per decade.
At senior level, we won 18 AI in the 80 years up to 2000, 2.25 per decade.
This is what you would expect from a county our size. What happened between 2000 and 2015 was freakish and it looks like we will return to our normality of 2 AI per decade. The recent of our u21s also indicate that we have fallen back.
We do need look at why we have not been performing at u21 level as our minors have been doing okay. We definitely need to adapt to the modern sweeper and running system and the delivery of ball to our forwards.

citykat

minty81 wrote: »

Who would be in the running if Cody was to bring in a new coach next year?
I really don't see a huge depth of options.
The kk man with the most impressive record at club level over last few years is Tom Mulally. An outrageous record with MLR, Clara and Glenmore. I don't think last weeks performance over wexford u-21's should damage his reputation too much.
Who would be the other contenders if Cody was to bring in a new hurling coach (as opposed to a strength & conditioning coach)
On the issue of selectors, the real question is what say these have. Does anyone hold much sway with Cody? If not then doesn't make much of a difference who is in the role

Not a big fan of Mullaly if Claras style is anything to go by. Too fond of the sweeper imo.

briancoolcat

citykat wrote: »

Not a big fan of Mullaly if Claras style is anything to go by. Too fond of the sweeper imo.

Well Tom Mullaly must be the answer to question number 4 posted by Hawkeye6 above so. As to question one why would we change Cody now?, well with no one of the calibre of Martin Fogarty to come in and replace him, we should hope he stays on, we have to trust that he and his selectors will start to really look at ways to beat the hurling sweeper system. I am no coach but can I ask ye lads a question in relation to the sweeper, if we had Richie Hogan playing to form why couldn't we use him as the extra man in a three man midfield against a team playing seven in defence to take the pass or puckouts and routinely slot them over the bar which he was doing with his eyes closed before injury/ form struck him? and when one of the backs inevitably has to push out to stop him slotting over points just send the ball in long to our six forwards marking six backs? Now maybe that's too simple and the likes of Waterford and wexford just crowd out the midfield too with only one or two playing in the forwards but surely some well practiced moves in training with accurate point taking from out the field can beat the dreaded sweeper system? Do any of ye see a clear cut way of beating it?

noserider

Who would be in the running if Cody was to bring in a new coach next year?

PJ Ryan

Nickindublin

Reading the posts here you would think we are finished and we will never win an All Ireland again unless we change everything we have been doing.God we just lost out this year and I'm confident we will be feared next year. Ask any other county at the start of 2018.There are some good young hurlers coming through. I hope they don't read here.

People saying we should adopt a sweeper are rediculous. How many sweeper systems have won All Irelands?

I think that tiredness was the biggest issue we had this year. Those 2 games against Waterford knocked the stuffing out of us last year. Remember 2012 against Galway? What happened in 2013?

Finally I think it's imperative Cody stays on. Yes I think Cody and his team got things wrong. We have all gave our opinions on this. I think a refresh may do good there but the biggest thing is that they learn from this year.

dzer2

In fairness the biggest thing now is the county board pull the finger out and get the club championship over by the end of sept. And the players get a rest.

WhatsGoingOn2

Some seriously high scores in the Byrne Cup tonight.

Erins Own 2-24 1-12 Ballyhale Shamrocks
Rower Inistioge 1-28 2-19 Dicksboro
Carrickshock 1-16 3-24 Clara
St Martin's 1-13 2-23 Bennettsbridge
O`Loughlin Gaels 5-23 1-13 Danesfort
Mullinavat 2-17 4-12 James Stephens

kksaints

WhatsGoingOn2 wrote: »

Some seriously high scores in the Byrne Cup tonight.

Erins Own 2-24 1-12 Ballyhale Shamrocks
Rower Inistioge 1-28 2-19 Dicksboro
Carrickshock 1-16 3-24 Clara
St Martin's 1-13 2-23 Bennettsbridge
O`Loughlin Gaels 5-23 1-13 Danesfort
Mullinavat 2-17 4-12 James Stephens

Some decent scores in the Inistioge-Dicksboro match. Although the defending from both sides left a bit to be desired. Inistioge were deserved winners.

danganabu

Nickindublin wrote: »

People saying we should adopt a sweeper are rediculous. How many sweeper systems have won All Irelands?

I don't think anyone was suggesting that, the point was being made that KK need to work on how best to counter the sweeper.

Village87

danganabu wrote: »

I don't think anyone was suggesting that, the point was being made that KK need to work on how best to counter the sweeper.

You beat the sweeper, with skillful clever hurling from the backs upwards, play it to the midfield or the half back line, run at the opposition, corners and wing forwards always making themselves available.

Teams play a sweeper because they are effectively telling you they are not good enough or confident enough to go 15 on 15, so the better hurling team should still effectively win.

Paul Murphy and Cillian Buckley must have lost possession 75% of the time they had possession last week in Thurlus, hitting long clearances on Tadgh De Burcha all day long. Robert Lennon & Conor Fogarty are just spoilers they dont have the athleticism or hurling tomhurt teams in possession.

I believe Kilkennys problem start from the backs upwards, poor in possession and deliveries killed the forwards as a lot of people stated here after the Limerick match. The most comfortable back in possession is Eoin Murphy and he is the goalie

Ceist_Beag

Great article by Darragh O'Se in the times on Cody, the last line said it all. I loved the story on Paidi and the swimming pool!

ProudDUB

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Great article by Darragh O'Se in the times on Cody, the last line said it all. I loved the story on Paidi and the swimming pool!

He's delusional if he thinks that Paidi jumping into a pool fully clothed, gave someone like Brian Cody food for thought.

He probably took one look, thought "that eegit has had one too many" & promptly forgot all about it. :rolleyes:

Village87

Any report on the Intermediate game last night ? Anyone make a claim for the seniors next year ?

kilkennyboy

Village87 wrote: »

You beat the sweeper, with skillful clever hurling from the backs upwards, play it to the midfield or the half back line, run at the opposition, corners and wing forwards always making themselves available.

Teams play a sweeper because they are effectively telling you they are not good enough or confident enough to go 15 on 15, so the better hurling team should still effectively win.

Paul Murphy and Cillian Buckley must have lost possession 75% of the time they had possession last week in Thurlus, hitting long clearances on Tadgh De Burcha all day long. Robert Lennon & Conor Fogarty are just spoilers they dont have the athleticism or hurling tomhurt teams in possession.

I believe Kilkennys problem start from the backs upwards, poor in possession and deliveries killed the forwards as a lot of people stated here after the Limerick match. The most comfortable back in possession is Eoin Murphy and he is the goalie

The very first move to counter the sweeper is send out someone to pick him up.this way you decide who plays sweeper.de burcha is a good reader of the game good in the air so you dont want to hit lose ball down on him.colin picks him up and works him .straight away you have a new sweeper who dosent have the experience of that roll . Then use the ball down the lines .cross field to easy for sweeper to cut out

mountgomery burns

kilkennyboy wrote: »

The very first move to counter the sweeper is send out someone to pick him up.this way you decide who plays sweeper.de burcha is a good reader of the game good in the air so you dont want to hit lose ball down on him.colin picks him up and works him .straight away you have a new sweeper who dosent have the experience of that roll . Then use the ball down the lines .cross field to easy for sweeper to cut out

Then you have a Lar Corbettesque situation with your most dangerous forward double marked.

kilkennyboy

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Then you have a Lar Corbettesque situation with your most dangerous forward double marked.

That is fine .its about putting pressure on the extra defender .and forcing a poor clearence .the shocks done it to p mannion in the club final
And clompletly took him out of the game.

mountgomery burns

kilkennyboy wrote: »

That is fine .its about putting pressure on the extra defender .and forcing a poor clearence .the shocks done it to p mannion in the club final
And clompletly took him out of the game.

KK did something like that with Michael Fennelly last year, but I wouldn't use Colin Fennelly. Maybe Walter Walsh.

kilkennyboy

mountgomery burns wrote: »

KK did something like that with Michael Fennelly last year, but I wouldn't use Colin Fennelly. Maybe Walter Walsh.

You need it to be someone very aggresive in the tackle and has pace to get their.

brookville

Well done to the intermediates last night did anyone attend?
I heard Wexford struggled to get a team so the result not a huge surprise.I think there playing in a curtain raiser next weekend in cork so good luck to them.It's a pity this isn't taken more seriously as it could be a stepping stone or a few lads around the 25 mark and let counties pick from senior clubs
3 leinster titles in a week is nothing to be sniffed at its just disappointing that our seniors never got going but we can't complain we'll definitely be back
Limerick looked fairly serious last night and it could be a repeat of the 14 minor final where we'll be outsiders again.A win in this grade this year would be a great lift heading into next year's league

Comerman

Was there, standout players for us were, backs- Doherty, whelan and teehan. Tracy and Costello were strong in mf. Forwards brennan and power were excellent (fit as fiddles and took some great scores) Carey and Donnelly were very good too and took good scores. Plenty of talent there even if wexford were poor. A lot of flowing movement from backs to forwards ending in good scores. The wexford goal was soft though keeper dropped a side line ball. All in all very positive.

Cornerback1

kilkennyboy wrote: »

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Then you have a Lar Corbettesque situation with your most dangerous forward double marked.

That is fine .its about putting pressure on the extra defender .and forcing a poor clearence .the shocks done it to p mannion in the club final
And clompletly took him out of the game.

I agree. Why let the opposition decide who their sweeper is? If playing against a sweeper, you want their worst stickman playing as sweeper - someone who's never played it before and doesn't know how to play it. Don't let the team who are playing with the sweeper set the tone!

tbiggertycome

I'm delighted with the effort shown and the attitude of the players and management on Saturday. Fair dues to Waterford they were the better team throughout and regrouped well for the extra time and pushed on while we feel apart.

I know last year the management were worried about our defence all year and I don't think they truly believed in our CB and FB last year. That has obviously continued on this year and that worry and uncertainty has permeated through the team. The players know the management don't trust them and they don't seem to trust each other, with 2 or 3 lads all going up for the same ball. If they trusted each other one would go up and the others would be sweeping around in support. All these guys with multiple All Irelands don't become useless overnight (or ever). I think our biggest problem has been the visible lack of trust given to the defence after last years All Ireland. This has then run through the rest of the team and has lead to guys been played out of position not playing with confidence in themselves or those around them and at this level that leads to dropped balls, poor shot selection and poor passing and movement.

I think the fact they all have the summer off now and can go off and enjoy themselves is a good thing. I know one of the players and he has taken the opportunity already and has two short holidays booked. The whole thing seemed a bit stale with the players not having that drive we’re used to in matches but they still weren’t willing to lie down for anyone and they still have fight in them. I think the break will revitalise them all.

Here’s a list of those I would expect to be in or around the panel next year with their current age or as close as I know. To me it shows a there’s plenty of scope for the young lads to be given their head.

Adrian Mullen 18
Martin Keoghan 19
Niall Brassill 19
Darren Mullen 20/21
Conor Doheny 20/21
Sean Morrissey 20/21
Liam Blanchfield 20/21
Billy Ryan 20/21
John Walsh 20/21
Michael Coady 20/21
Pat Lyng 20/21
John Donnelly 20/21
Richie Leahy 20/21
Luke Scanlon 20/21
Jason Cleere 20/21
Tommy Walsh 20/21
Conor Delaney 20/21
Darren Brennan 20/21
Evan Cody 21
Chris Bolger 22/23
James Maher 22/23
Paddy Deegan 22/23
Robert Lennon 22/23
Kevin Kelly 23
Conor O’Shea 24
Cillian Buckley 24
Richie Reid 24
Ollie Walsh 24/25
Padraig Walsh 25
Ger Aylward 25
Joe Lyng 26
Walter Walsh 26
Eoin Murphy 26
Colin Fennelly 27
Conor Fogarty 27
Joey Holden 27
Jonjo Farrell 28
Richie Hogan 28
Paul Murphy 28
Mark Bergin 28
TJ Reid 29
Lester Ryan 29
Kieran Joyce 30
Shane Pendergast 31
Michael Fennelly 32
Sorry if I forgot anyone obvious.

To be honest I don’t mind not winning this year or next year as long as young lads are been given a chance and a fair chance as well, not just a load of new lads playing with no experienced head to help and guide them. The thing that has disappointed me most about this year is the lack of game time for the younger lads in Championship games this year we had 3 games and only Paddy Deegan, Liam Blanchfield and Richie Leahy got on the pitch.

I’m not sure we need a whole new backroom team as Cody is a selection committee of 1 anyway but if we did have a selector who was confident enough to go in and to do some coaching with the lads. Coaching on a style of play they want them to use and give them a bit of structure to work off. I don’t know who that is, I can actually think of a few lads who would be well able to do it but I know they wouldn’t do it as they don’t have the time with work commitments, family etc. There is no man better than Cody to lead the team through the next few years as I don’t think anyone can instill the drive and never beaten attitude as well as Cody but I would like to see him try a few different things I would say a few new voices would freshen things up as well but we’ll see what happens with that in November.

brookville

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I'm delighted with the effort shown and the attitude of the players and management on Saturday. Fair dues to Waterford they were the better team throughout and regrouped well for the extra time and pushed on while we feel apart.

I know last year the management were worried about our defence all year and I don't think they truly believed in our CB and FB last year. That has obviously continued on this year and that worry and uncertainty has permeated through the team. The players know the management don't trust them and they don't seem to trust each other, with 2 or 3 lads all going up for the same ball. If they trusted each other one would go up and the others would be sweeping around in support. All these guys with multiple All Irelands don't become useless overnight (or ever). I think our biggest problem has been the visible lack of trust given to the defence after last years All Ireland. This has then run through the rest of the team and has lead to guys been played out of position not playing with confidence in themselves or those around them and at this level that leads to dropped balls, poor shot selection and poor passing and movement.

I think the fact they all have the summer off now and can go off and enjoy themselves is a good thing. I know one of the players and he has taken the opportunity already and has two short holidays booked. The whole thing seemed a bit stale with the players not having that drive we’re used to in matches but they still weren’t willing to lie down for anyone and they still have fight in them. I think the break will revitalise them all.

Here’s a list of those I would expect to be in or around the panel next year with their current age or as close as I know. To me it shows a there’s plenty of scope for the young lads to be given their head.

Adrian Mullen 18
Martin Keoghan 19
Niall Brassill 19
Darren Mullen 20/21
Conor Doheny 20/21
Sean Morrissey 20/21
Liam Blanchfield 20/21
Billy Ryan 20/21
John Walsh 20/21
Michael Coady 20/21
Pat Lyng 20/21
John Donnelly 20/21
Richie Leahy 20/21
Luke Scanlon 20/21
Jason Cleere 20/21
Tommy Walsh 20/21
Conor Delaney 20/21
Darren Brennan 20/21
Evan Cody 21
Chris Bolger 22/23
James Maher 22/23
Paddy Deegan 22/23
Robert Lennon 22/23
Kevin Kelly 23
Conor O’Shea 24
Cillian Buckley 24
Richie Reid 24
Ollie Walsh 24/25
Padraig Walsh 25
Ger Aylward 25
Joe Lyng 26
Walter Walsh 26
Eoin Murphy 26
Colin Fennelly 27
Conor Fogarty 27
Joey Holden 27
Jonjo Farrell 28
Richie Hogan 28
Paul Murphy 28
Mark Bergin 28
TJ Reid 29
Lester Ryan 29
Kieran Joyce 30
Shane Pendergast 31
Michael Fennelly 32
Sorry if I forgot anyone obvious.

To be honest I don’t mind not winning this year or next year as long as young lads are been given a chance and a fair chance as well, not just a load of new lads playing with no experienced head to help and guide them. The thing that has disappointed me most about this year is the lack of game time for the younger lads in Championship games this year we had 3 games and only Paddy Deegan, Liam Blanchfield and Richie Leahy got on the pitch.

I’m not sure we need a whole new backroom team as Cody is a selection committee of 1 anyway but if we did have a selector who was confident enough to go in and to do some coaching with the lads. Coaching on a style of play they want them to use and give them a bit of structure to work off. I don’t know who that is, I can actually think of a few lads who would be well able to do it but I know they wouldn’t do it as they don’t have the time with work commitments, family etc. There is no man better than Cody to lead the team through the next few years as I don’t think anyone can instill the drive and never beaten attitude as well as Cody but I would like to see him try a few different things I would say a few new voices would freshen things up as well but we’ll see what happens with that in November.

I'd be shocked if cody left I'd say he'll definitely stay,leahylooked like a proper hurler last saturday night that's a positive and joe lyng had 2 good games.
Definitely agree the summer off will do no harm we've 6 months to assess the whole thing and try pick a few players from the club.
The one thing player who I feel we miss the most is larkin the ground he covered and nearly always got a point or 2,great man to funnel back to his defence.
We had no1 like henry to give instructions to the fowards instead we had lads stuck together

WhatsGoingOn2

Senior and Intermediate club dates:
Round 4 the weekend of 11th August and round 5 Tuesday 22nd / Wednesday 23rd August

brookville

WhatsGoingOn2 wrote: »

Senior and Intermediate club dates:
Round 4 the weekend of 11th August and round 5 Tuesday 22nd / Wednesday 23rd August

Think there caught with the minor,21s,intermediate and football all coming up,its a good complaint I suppose and at least the club players now know where they stand

1984baby

brookville wrote: »

I'd be shocked if cody left I'd say he'll definitely stay,leahylooked like a proper hurler last saturday night that's a positive and joe lyng had 2 good games.
Definitely agree the summer off will do no harm we've 6 months to assess the whole thing and try pick a few players from the club.
The one thing player who I feel we miss the most is larkin the ground he covered and nearly always got a point or 2,great man to funnel back to his defence.
We had no1 like henry to give instructions to the fowards instead we had lads stuck together

I think Lester could play wing forward and play that position like Larkin.

Nedflanders02

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I'm delighted with the effort shown and the attitude of the players and management on Saturday. Fair dues to Waterford they were the better team throughout and regrouped well for the extra time and pushed on while we feel apart.

I know last year the management were worried about our defence all year and I don't think they truly believed in our CB and FB last year. That has obviously continued on this year and that worry and uncertainty has permeated through the team. The players know the management don't trust them and they don't seem to trust each other, with 2 or 3 lads all going up for the same ball. If they trusted each other one would go up and the others would be sweeping around in support. All these guys with multiple All Irelands don't become useless overnight (or ever). I think our biggest problem has been the visible lack of trust given to the defence after last years All Ireland. This has then run through the rest of the team and has lead to guys been played out of position not playing with confidence in themselves or those around them and at this level that leads to dropped balls, poor shot selection and poor passing and movement.

I think the fact they all have the summer off now and can go off and enjoy themselves is a good thing. I know one of the players and he has taken the opportunity already and has two short holidays booked. The whole thing seemed a bit stale with the players not having that drive we’re used to in matches but they still weren’t willing to lie down for anyone and they still have fight in them. I think the break will revitalise them all.

Here’s a list of those I would expect to be in or around the panel next year with their current age or as close as I know. To me it shows a there’s plenty of scope for the young lads to be given their head.

Adrian Mullen 18
Martin Keoghan 19
Niall Brassill 19
Darren Mullen 20/21
Conor Doheny 20/21
Sean Morrissey 20/21
Liam Blanchfield 20/21
Billy Ryan 20/21
John Walsh 20/21
Michael Coady 20/21
Pat Lyng 20/21
John Donnelly 20/21
Richie Leahy 20/21
Luke Scanlon 20/21
Jason Cleere 20/21
Tommy Walsh 20/21
Conor Delaney 20/21
Darren Brennan 20/21
Evan Cody 21
Chris Bolger 22/23
James Maher 22/23
Paddy Deegan 22/23
Robert Lennon 22/23
Kevin Kelly 23
Conor O’Shea 24
Cillian Buckley 24
Richie Reid 24
Ollie Walsh 24/25
Padraig Walsh 25
Ger Aylward 25
Joe Lyng 26
Walter Walsh 26
Eoin Murphy 26
Colin Fennelly 27
Conor Fogarty 27
Joey Holden 27
Jonjo Farrell 28
Richie Hogan 28
Paul Murphy 28
Mark Bergin 28
TJ Reid 29
Lester Ryan 29
Kieran Joyce 30
Shane Pendergast 31
Michael Fennelly 32
Sorry if I forgot anyone obvious.

To be honest I don’t mind not winning this year or next year as long as young lads are been given a chance and a fair chance as well, not just a load of new lads playing with no experienced head to help and guide them. The thing that has disappointed me most about this year is the lack of game time for the younger lads in Championship games this year we had 3 games and only Paddy Deegan, Liam Blanchfield and Richie Leahy got on the pitch.

I’m not sure we need a whole new backroom team as Cody is a selection committee of 1 anyway but if we did have a selector who was confident enough to go in and to do some coaching with the lads. Coaching on a style of play they want them to use and give them a bit of structure to work off. I don’t know who that is, I can actually think of a few lads who would be well able to do it but I know they wouldn’t do it as they don’t have the time with work commitments, family etc. There is no man better than Cody to lead the team through the next few years as I don’t think anyone can instill the drive and never beaten attitude as well as Cody but I would like to see him try a few different things I would say a few new voices would freshen things up as well but we’ll see what happens with that in November.

That's a serious list of players listed out there and shows the amount of talent in the county, others you could even add to that could be:

Huw Lawlor - O'Louglhins - 21
Ciaran Wallace - Erin's Own - 22/23
Ciaran Ryan - The Rower - 22/23
Kevin Blanchfield - Bennettsbridge - 22/23
Robbie Fitzpatrick - Dicksboro - 22/23
Ger Teehan - Graigue Ballycallan - 23/24
Tom Awlyard - Mullinavat - 23/24

The above mightn't be as prominent as some the younger lads you've mentioned but they've all hurled well at club level the last year or so.

brookville

Nedflanders02 wrote: »

That's a serious list of players listed out there and shows the amount of talent in the county, others you could even add to that could be:

Huw Lawlor - O'Louglhins - 21
Ciaran Wallace - Erin's Own - 22/23
Ciaran Ryan - The Rower - 22/23
Kevin Blanchfield - Bennettsbridge - 22/23
Robbie Fitzpatrick - Dicksboro - 22/23
Ger Teehan - Graigue Ballycallan - 23/24
Tom Awlyard - Mullinavat - 23/24

The above mightn't be as prominent as some the younger lads you've mentioned but they've all hurled well at club level the last year or so.

While some of the above probably won't make it there's no doubt there's good hurlers in the county.we've won 3 leinster titles in the last week and hopefully we've put our act together at u21 because we've had decent minor teams in recent years and good college teams while at intermediate and junior level we've won a good few all irelands and while these don't guarantee success for our county team it certainly does no harm.
The club scene will be a great window for any player because I can see this being like 05 where lads will be culled and younger lads brought in because it certainly looked stale this year.
I'd like to see wallace and ciarian ryan both have impressed me when I saw them.
Just touching on the local matches while bhale will be favourites I think the rower could be a darkhorse
Intermediate as always very open tullaron favourites but ttown,bragget,tullogher all evenly matched
Emeralds should go up but it's a hard grade with callan and conahy both fancying their chances

tbiggertycome

Nedflanders02 wrote: »

That's a serious list of players listed out there and shows the amount of talent in the county, others you could even add to that could be:

Huw Lawlor - O'Louglhins - 21
Ciaran Wallace - Erin's Own - 22/23
Ciaran Ryan - The Rower - 22/23
Kevin Blanchfield - Bennettsbridge - 22/23
Robbie Fitzpatrick - Dicksboro - 22/23
Ger Teehan - Graigue Ballycallan - 23/24
Tom Awlyard - Mullinavat - 23/24

The above mightn't be as prominent as some the younger lads you've mentioned but they've all hurled well at club level the last year or so.

Yep their all good hurlers and are capable of making it if given the chance. I also forgot young Farrell from Carrickshock 20/21.

Brookville talked about staleness which I can't disagree with in the slightest. However the question has to be was it the players were stale or was the message from the management stale? I honestly don't know the answer. If it's the players who where stale you would expect those back in next year to be mad for road and driving on after their extended break. If it was the management then they will need to come with some new ideas and approaches to the whole set up. It was probably a combination of both to be honest and thats why I think a few fresh voices in there wouldn't hurt at all, commanded by Cody as long as he stays.

brookville

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Yep their all good hurlers and are capable of making it if given the chance. I also forgot young Farrell from Carrickshock 20/21.

Brookville talked about staleness which I can't disagree with in the slightest. However the question has to be was it the players were stale or was the message from the management stale? I honestly don't know the answer. If it's the players who where stale you would expect those back in next year to be mad for road and driving on after their extended break. If it was the management then they will need to come with some new ideas and approaches to the whole set up. It was probably a combination of both to be honest and thats why I think a few fresh voices in there wouldn't hurt at all, commanded by Cody as long as he stays.

I think myself it was a combination of both we definitely need a few fresh ideas our system is to predictable and one dimensional,teams have learned to counteract it so that's something that can definitely be worked on for the next few months.
Things like uncertainty around team selection didn't help while competition for places is essential we went through the league and still chopped and changed our central players right up to last Saturday this certainly isn't ideal.
The positives are the future is bright but it's important we blood a few players next year there's no use playing joey,pender,joyce and lester if he doesn't trust them to start in the summer.
Take any good team competing for this years all Ireland or us a few years ago you need at least 4 of your forwards motoring and troubling the scoreboard we hadn't got that all year only tj from frees and penaltys the rest in fits and starts.We need wally and colin to really grab the bull by the horns and richie to get back to his previous form.Hopefully leahy,billy ryan and donnelly can add something next year all 3 can score and win their own ball.
Scanlon and morrissey will hopefully be options in the not so distant future.
In defence cleere and mullen look good prospects but we still have no solution to our number 3 while delaney looks good its a huge step up it looks like padraig is our long term 3 but I'm disappointed joyce wasn't left at 3 an padraig on the wing.
While the u21 is very important it's not the be all and end all if we could get 5-6 pushing for places next year id be happy

Nedflanders02

I agree 100% agree with what your saying. I think a vital part of what we do early next year is to get settled look to the spine of our team. One of the positives from this year has been Buckley's move to centre back, obviously we have to go back to the drawing board for full back but no matter who we pick I think we have to leave them at fb and Buckley at cb and build a defence around them.

As has been mentioned a lot here the distribution into the forwards has to be a lot better next year too, a lot of the time this year it has been hit and hope stuff and it's not giving our forwards much of a chance, I think with someone like Padraig and Cleere at wing back this will improve. At midfield I'd love to Darren Mullen been tried there, he reminds me an awful lot like Cha, for a small man he's good in the air, his distribution is excellent and he's a fighter too and I think he could be the perfect foil to someone like Mick Fennelly!!

Our forwards really have to offer something different next year, accepted that the ball in has been poor but the movement at times has been non existent and we are so easy to defend against!! There's a massive lack of pace in our forwards to. I'd love to see a forward line for the league next year that included Leahy, Scanlon and Morrissey and I'd let 3 of them interchange amongst themselves and start dragging opposition backs around and make life uncomfortable for them!! We need to start taking the pressure off TJ who has really carried us these last 2 seasons, the more space we can create for him the better and the more damage he will do!!

As disappointing as it is to be out this early in the championship I think there is a lot of cause for optimism in Kilkenny hurling, the fight the seniors showed against Waterford showed we aren't far off the top teams we just need a little reconstruction to get us back to the top. The performances of the minors and U-21's over the last week have showed the talent is there waiting to come through, and with the prospect of good minor and U-21 teams again next year I think its going to an exciting time looking at this young talent coming through and seeing how they develop!!

thesultan

Will Cody do to Reid and Hogan like he did to Shefflin and rest them more(Shefflin was injured a lot too)? I always thought that Kilkenny for the most part gave hail mary balls to their forwards but it was the fact they could win it

brookville

thesultan wrote: »

Will Cody do to Reid and Hogan like he did to Shefflin and rest them more(Shefflin was injured a lot too)? I always thought that Kilkenny for the most part gave hail mary balls to their forwards but it was the fact they could win it

I think it's hugely important tj,richie are rested more next year.
I was at the walsh cup match in January and playing them two in that match against antrim is ridiculous.
Tj had to carry the can all through the league we need a few more scoring forwards and we need to find at least 2 good defenders with pace.
I have great confidence in darren mullen I think he would of being a better option than lennon last week his very comfortable on the ball and knows how to give a good pass.I'd have him as our number 4 next year
I wonder will adrian mullen be brought into the set up next year it'll be interesting to see how he fares at club level this year.
Ger alyward will hopefully get a good club season behind him and bolger hopefully stay improving

Topcat32

brookville wrote: »

I think it's hugely important tj,richie are rested more next year.
I was at the walsh cup match in January and playing them two in that match against antrim is ridiculous.
Tj had to carry the can all through the league we need a few more scoring forwards and we need to find at least 2 good defenders with pace.
I have great confidence in darren mullen I think he would of being a better option than lennon last week his very comfortable on the ball and knows how to give a good pass.I'd have him as our number 4 next year
I wonder will adrian mullen be brought into the set up next year it'll be interesting to see how he fares at club level this year.
Ger alyward will hopefully get a good club season behind him and bolger hopefully stay improving

I think Darren Mullen is a great hurler and probably has the best hurling brain of all our young players but due to his size and injury history Id be suprised if he gets close to the senior team for the next 2 years at least. He does have 2 years left at under 21 level so he has time on his side. I think the a big plus point for him is that his club have a great record of turning underage talent into quality senior hurlers.

I think next year the focus will be more on bringing Conor Delaney, Jason Cleere, Pat Lyng, Sean Morrissey, Richie Leahy onto or close to the team and looking to get Blanchfield back on track, possibly somebody like John Power can find his form in the club championship as well.

brookville

Topcat32 wrote: »

I think Darren Mullen is a great hurler and probably has the best hurling brain of all our young players but due to his size and injury history Id be suprised if he gets close to the senior team for the next 2 years at least. He does have 2 years left at under 21 level so he has time on his side. I think the a big plus point for him is that his club have a great record of turning underage talent into quality senior hurlers.

I think next year the focus will be more on bringing Conor Delaney, Jason Cleere, Pat Lyng, Sean Morrissey, Richie Leahy onto or close to the team and looking to get Blanchfield back on track, possibly somebody like John Power can find his form in the club championship as well.

I remember buckley was injury prone years ago but thankfully he turned into a super athlete mullen is a smart hurler and hurling with bhale will bring him on.He had a very good campaign last year for them in,I can't wait to see how adrian does this year at senior he could be called in next year

Dionysis

What ever happened Colum Prendervile from G' Ballycallan?