Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Dionysis

usualstripes wrote: »

Jaysus. I know there was a stiff breeze but we were not up for it in the 1st half. Not up to the pace and too slow in possession. Let's hope we will improve big time in the 2nd half. Half forward line hurled out of it. Cmon lads. Get it going

Forwards not playing as a team, fancy dan hurling. Said it after the Leinster final, Leahy doesn't pass the ball nor do the rest of them. Kk should be level here it's very clear they are as good as hurlers but not playing as a team and the backs are too soft. Cleese centre back for kk, please god that will never happen.

Brennan has a lot to answer for here, that half was rubbish, interlink play is poor, and no bite.

mullinr2

God this is desperate. I tell ya there is softness about Kilkenny hurling at all levels. We are going to down for a long time boys

noserider

4 points in 40 minutes, awful hurling.
Basic skills missing, sideline cuts, first to the ball, lift off the ground.

dzer2

noserider wrote: »

4 points in 40 minutes, awful hurling.

Shane Walsh was an embarrassment to leave him on for that length was shocking.

mullinr2

Cody has the biggest challenge he ever has to face. To make Kilkenny competitive again. We are in disarray at all levels. We haven't been this poor since the mid 90s

Dionysis

We can safely say, having seen a lot of these players time and again over the last year that they just don't have what it takes to be senior inter county hurlers. None of them. I'd go so far as to say there are a number of them who need to be dropped from the senior panel. They will never be good enough and will only ever be journey men. I'd rather we had a battler than a fancy Dan who doesn't put it in.

As for Eddie Brennan, was asked to do a job and did his best.... so thanks for that but it's time now to realise that he's just not intercounty manager material. There's no shame in that.

BoroMan32

That was an appalling display from start to finish.

We had a soft run through to the final, and any of the Munster teams or Galway would have beaten us out the gate.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

We can safely say, having seen a lot of these players time and again over the last year that they just don't have what it takes to be senior inter county hurlers. None of them. I'd go so far as to say there are a number of them who need to be dropped from the senior panel. They will never be good enough and will only ever be journey men. I'd rather we had a battler than a fancy Dan who doesn't put it in.

As for Eddie Brennan, was asked to do a job and did his best.... so thanks for that but it's time now to realise that he's just not intercounty manager material. There's no shame in that.

So Eddie has no players who are of intercounty standard but yet he didnt do well enough to keep his job? Where are the players in Kilkenny who will replace the under 21s you want dropped?

Dionysis

Time to;
Bring back Martin Fogarty to the senior setup.
Badly, badly need a north and a south divisional side for minors from both intermediate and junior sids to develop playing senior standad hurling past U-17, and to catch the late developers.
Need to ðevelop managers and coachs and use the better ones at intercounty level, instead of using ex intercounty hurlers who are just not managers.
Comfy broad needs to realise that kk have a massive problem .... 2008 since he last u-21 win. Next year it will be 10 years. And wo minor wins since then, which is vey average.

corner back 2

After watching seniors and U21s this year I can't understand how the first touch of KK hurlers is gone so poor. Balls constantly bouncing off hurls or out of lads hands. In the modern game with so little room this is vital. Are we not coaching properly or not doing drills, ball wall work etc. We haven't looked sharp in comparison to other counties at all levels. I would love if someone could give me an explanation or maybe tell me I'm imagining it!

Topcat32

mullinr2 wrote: »

Cody has the biggest challenge he ever has to face. To make Kilkenny competitive again. We are in disarray at all levels. We haven't been this poor since the mid 90s

Dissaray is a big strong, lets put this in a bit of context before losing the plot, 7 or 8 of those Limerick lads have been on the Senior Limerick panel for the last 3 years and came through Munster quite comfortably beating q strong Galway team in the final, they were always strong favourites to win the all ireland.

Topcat32

dzer2 wrote: »

Shane Walsh was an embarrassment to leave him on for that length was shocking.

Dont think any player who give up his time to represent his county is an embarresment, bitter auld lads sniping at players after they lost a final are another story.

Dionysis

It's eddies job to have his team mentally ready to go and playing a team game, both of which didn't happen in any game he managed in the last two years.

kksaints

That was a very poor performance from us. Lots of basic errors and really poor stickwork.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

Time to;
Bring back Martin Fogarty to the senior setup.
Badly, badly need a north and a south divisional side for minors from both intermediate and junior sids to develop playing senior standad hurling past U-17, and to catch the late developers.
Need to ðevelop managers and coachs and use the better ones at intercounty level, instead of using ex intercounty hurlers who are just not managers.
Comfy broad needs to realise that kk have a massive problem .... 2008 since he last u-21 win. Next year it will be 10 years. And wo minor wins since then, which is vey average.

Who is this comfy broad you are talking about?

Dionysis

All year we are saying he same t hing about these players at senior or u-21 level, it's time to realise that they are over rated.

Dionysis

Topcat32 wrote: »

Who is this comfy broad you are talking about?

County board.... your opinion and technical input about hurling is in valuable as always.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

It's eddies job to have his team mentally ready to go and playing a team game, both of which didn't happen in any game he managed in the last two years.

Ok I take that on board, they were flat today and personally I havent been overly happy with his management style, but who are the players who will replace the under 21s on the panel.

I think today shows that Cody has used the right under 21s on his team, Delaney, Cleere and Blanchfield were the only ones who could match Limerick physically.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

County board.... your opinion and technical input about hurling is in valuable as always.

Thanks for the compliment, now who should replace all those fancy dan under 21s?

Dionysis

Cleere went missing today. The backs were two yards off their man for every ball all day. Cody's in a pickle, cos you couldn't rely on an of those backs and to be fair, Cleere did less than the rest. He didn't command his centre back position, to interested in the loose ball. Not intercounty standard. The full back I wouldn't rate either but at least he didn't go missing.

brookville

Just on the way home where to start?congrats to limerick we could of being hamnered but limerick stalled a bit when lynch went off.
Leahy,walsh,ryan and morrisey all replaced which is dissapointing
There was huge wind against us in the 1st half but make no mistake limerick way better and it could of being worse.
Baffling taking of leahy or mullen not on earier.
Positives if any from today delaney was decent at 3 considering the pressure he was under.I thought tommy and lawlor tried hardand blanchfield and donnelly(good 2nd half) were the best of a poor performance.

mullinr2

Topcat32 wrote: »

Dissaray is a big strong, lets put this in a bit of context before losing the plot, 7 or 8 of those Limerick lads have been on the Senior Limerick panel for the last 3 years and came through Munster quite comfortably beating q strong Galway team in the final, they were always strong favourites to win the all ireland.

We got a soft run to the final which didn't help but Kilkenny hurling has gone soft and is in disarray. We have been outfought out thought and out skilled at senior u21 and minor this year. Look how far off we are to Galway in particular but also Tipp and Waterford. It'll take years to bridge the gap

usualstripes

1) Our fielding of the ball very poor
2) Our speed in possession poor
3) Complete inability to create space and drag a half or corner back out of his comfort zone.
4) Our intensity, strength under pressure and eagerness to win possession is gone.

I am not being overy dramatic here but the whole approach to games is not what it should be.
One of our biggest strengths over the last 15 years was our ability to
1) Punish teams with goals that came from forwards pulling there men all over the place and creating space for other forwards to drill through in goal.
2) Strength under the high ball and in rucks.

We seem to have lost our way but I wouldn't give up hope completely. An agressive determination is what is required and coaching how to use it along with rediscovering our ability to open spaces and get out for a ball first.
Our backs have to read the game better and not allow a forward 10 yards of space where he has time to score or pass to someone who can.

jeff bingham

I wouldn't be blaming Shane Walsh when any of the 6 forwards or 2 midfielders could have been brought off.
Just couldn't match Limerick physically around the middle. Some excellent players on that Limerick team in fairness

brookville

jeff bingham wrote: »

I wouldn't be blaming Shane Walsh when any of the 6 forwards or 2 midfielders could have been brought off.
Just couldn't match Limerick physically around the middle. Some excellent players on that Limerick team in fairness

Lets not forget Limerick have maybe 5 or 6 starting senior we had blanchfield and leahy with others getting league time.
The conditioning of some of their lads compared to ours was staggering

dzer2

Topcat32 wrote: »

Dont think any player who give up his time to represent his county is an embarresment, bitter auld lads sniping at players after they lost a final are another story.

Not auld or bitter lad

He was there by name
I have said on here, plenty of times in all under age set ups, the best players in the county are not on them.

Its harder to get off the squads than to get on them. to say there is no player improving on the few that were selected at under 14 squad 7 yrs ago is rubbish.

I go to loads of club games both senior intermediate and underage and see loads of lads that a worth a try at under age never given a chance.

When is the last time Cody brought a lad in that wasn't on the under age squads.

Loads of good coaches at clubs too but cant devote the time to county squads if they are to coach at club as well.

Topcat32

dzer2 wrote: »

Not auld or bitter lad

He was there by name
I have said on here, plenty of times in all under age set ups, the best players in the county are not on them.

Its harder to get off the squads than to get on them. to say there is no player improving on the few that were selected at under 14 squad 7 yrs ago is rubbish.

I go to loads of club games both senior intermediate and underage and see loads of lads that a worth a try at under age never given a chance.

When is the last time Cody brought a lad in that wasn't on the under age squads.

Loads of good coaches at clubs too but cant devote the time to county squads if they are to coach at club as well.

How you can look at a match where the midfield and 2 of the half forwards were blown out of it and where the backline struggled to clear any ball and think the big problem is with the corner forwards is beyond me.

I think Shane is a decent club and underage hurler, dont see him making any impact at senior level, it is just my opinion that to use todays loss to have a such a personalised go at him is wrong based on the old story that there are these mystery men out there not getting a chance at county level, the standard of club hurling recently would suggest that is bull**** to be honest.

dzer2

TBH he didn't shake a leg, I am not personalising anything I say it as I see it. This was a game that that a hard working corner forward against that wind would be out trying to influence the game. In fairness to Ryan he tried. Shane didn't. All the other forwards at least got blocks and hooks in.They moved around trying to make space and only for an over hit hand pass and an over driven cross field pass could have had shots at goal. The standard of coaching and skills at underage level this last few yrs is appalling for Kilkenny. But if you are always picked for the squads then why worry about upgrading or getting better.

Road-Hog

Just a taste for a 'success laden' county to what it's like being a 'weaker county' who rarely even get to an all Ireland....no doubt this current 'Kk rot' will be short lived will hardly stretch as long as the 'langers' one 😀😀😀

WhatsGoingOn2

Very disappointing turnout from the Kilkenny fans today. 2k to 3k max. Massively outnumbered by the Limerick fans.

blackcard

Dissapointed but thought we could have been a bit closer at half time. Blanchfield over hit a handpass for a goal chance. Limerick hit a few frees from 90 yards. Limerick the better team but they had played tougher opposition. I would be surprised if 4 or 5 of the Kilkenny team don't make it at senior level

citykat

^^^^+1. Just wonder how many on here were at the game? I was in the old stand and it was all Limerick.
To be calling lads a disgrace is uncalled for regardless of how they played. The blame for today imo lies with Eddie and the management. Kilkenny looked undercooked today. The touch was poor. Lads getting caught in possession. No support play. No tracking into the backs to help out when needed. No hunger. These are aspects drilled into lads in training.
The decision-making on the line was also daft. Taking Morrissey off just before half time? Was he injured? He didn't look it. Then Leahy in the second? FFS. How Donnelly stayed on longer than those two is beyond me. In fairness to him he actually came into it in the second half.
Limerick were a super team and worthy winners but they handed us an opportunity in the second half which we were ill prepared to take.
In the grand scheme of things losing today mightn't be a bad thing. There'll certainly be no swelled heads. Some of those playing can go on to play senior. They're good enough. The question is will they really want it badly enough. They'll know after today that nobody is going to stand by and hand it to them.

davidx40

I think the penny might be finally dropping with a lot of people .....give out about Eddie and i have myself but we are really struggling for quality at minute .....last years senior championship the standout out player was gorta at end of his career......i thought this u21 team was over rated all year ....people on here saying cleere is going to make senior centre back , i cant ever see him making it at senior ....i think the whole thing needs a shake from county board down its gone a bit stale ....

brookville

blackcard wrote: »

Dissapointed but thought we could have been a bit closer at half time. Blanchfield over hit a handpass for a goal chance. Limerick hit a few frees from 90 yards. Limerick the better team but they had played tougher opposition. I would be surprised if 4 or 5 of the Kilkenny team don't make it at senior level

I'd be hopefull a few can step up granted a few of our forwards didn't do themselves justice,ryan and walsh in praticular but both are a bit inconsistent.I though leahy stated ok but faded but I wouldn't of took him off.
Our backs held up ok considering the pressure we were under.after looking at delaney today he could do a job at 3 he needs to be tried in next year's league and padraig needs to go back to the wing.
I'm still not convinced with cleere at 6 I don't think his the awnser.
The few I'd like to see called in are Darren brennan whos a very good shot stopper.
Delaney who definitely has potential.
Tommy walsh and huw lawlor both tried hard but it was upfront we struggled today we need to try get these lads bulked up we looked like kids compared to limerick today
Finally why didn't Darren mullen start?

Gentleman Off The Pitch

davidx40 wrote: »

I think the penny might be finally dropping with a lot of people .....give out about Eddie and i have myself but we are really struggling for quality at minute .....last years senior championship the standout out player was gorta at end of his career......i thought this u21 team was over rated all year ....people on here saying cleere is going to make senior centre back , i cant ever see him making it at senior ....i think the whole thing needs a shake from county board down its gone a bit stale ....

Was last year not the second year in a row Gorta was the best player on show during the championship?

Realt Dearg Sec

Road-Hog wrote: »

Just a taste for a 'success laden' county to what it's like being a 'weaker county' who rarely even get to an all Ireland....no doubt this current 'Kk rot' will be short lived will hardly stretch as long as the 'langers' one 😀😀😀

What happened to cork after 2006 was a long time in the making, years of problems left to fester at underage, and only now 11 years later, are they even really starting to show signs of emerging out of it. Before that 2006 all IrelandsJesus they were regarded as the most well drilled and professional outfit in the history of hurling and set to dominate for years to come.

They should be an object lesson in how easily things can go south if complacency is allowed to set in, or if people start to buy in to the kind of bull**** that is written about winning teams, and how long it can take to recover.

We've had no shortage of warning signs in the past few years that there are big problems in kk hurling. I know it can sound like a knee jerk reaction straight after a loss to get too apocalyptic but the signs are all over the place. Today has all the hallmarks we've seen before:

nobody seemed able to complete a pass, there was no joined up play in evidence, lads weren't playing like a team, working for each other or playing to an identifiable plan.

Some good individual players but we seemed to have very poor first touch and control, and Lim fielding of high ball was in a different stratosphere.

Now in fairness that is a savage limerick team, but we lacked serious fight when there were chances to claw our way back in around forty five to fifty minutes in.

We had some good workrate, our lads hooked and blocked really well I thought, but mainly because they struggled to win primary possession. Lim half back line destroyed us.

You can blame individual players and they have to take some blame, and Eddie Brennan will struggle to justify how flat and uninspiring we were.

But a lot of what we've seen, the lack of first touch, the lack of a game plan, and, basically, the lack of a discernible identity, are common features of Kilkenny teams lately. I know we haven't the lads that were in the previous generation, but there's no sense that kk teams have an identity right now. It all points to deeper problems, whether in the development set up, or the club game, or maybe in the lack of flexibility in the relationship between the two. There needs to be a root and branch review of the whole system in the county to identify what is and isn't working. There's no shortage of brilliant and committed people running things at every level but somewhere along the way things aren't joining up properly. I know our country board are not likely to go down the cork "mushrooms that grow up overnight" road of just sitting back and waiting for the next bunch of Tommys, Henrys and JJs to spring into existence. In fact it's with remembering that that unbelievable generation came along right after the last time standards were seen to have been slipping and the county executive took profound remedial action to fix the set up. In the process they created the greatest team in the history of the sport, and a development system that was the model for all other counties.

washman3

dzer2 wrote: »

Shane Walsh was an embarrassment to leave him on for that length was shocking.

Disgusting comment on an underage amateur player.:mad:

Did you play much yourself.??

dubcat51

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What happened to cork after 2006 was a long time in the making, years of problems left to fester at underage, and only now 11 years later, are they even really starting to show signs of emerging out of it. Before that 2006 all IrelandsJesus they were regarded as the most well drilled and professional outfit in the history of hurling and set to dominate for years to come.

They should be an object lesson in how easily things can go south if complacency is allowed to set in, or if people start to buy in to the kind of bull**** that is written about winning teams, and how long it can take to recover.

We've had no shortage of warning signs in the past few years that there are big problems in kk hurling. I know it can sound like a knee jerk reaction straight after a loss to get too apocalyptic but the signs are all over the place. Today has all the hallmarks we've seen before:

nobody seemed able to complete a pass, there was no joined up play in evidence, lads weren't playing like a team, working for each other or playing to an identifiable plan.

Some good individual players but we seemed to have very poor first touch and control, and Lim fielding of high ball was in a different stratosphere.

Now in fairness that is a savage limerick team, but we lacked serious fight when there were chances to claw our way back in around forty five to fifty minutes in.

We had some good workrate, our lads hooked and blocked really well I thought, but mainly because they struggled to win primary possession. Lim half back line destroyed us.

You can blame individual players and they have to take some blame, and Eddie Brennan will struggle to justify how flat and uninspiring we were.

But a lot of what we've seen, the lack of first touch, the lack of a game plan, and, basically, the lack of a discernible identity, are common features of Kilkenny teams lately. I know we haven't the lads that were in the previous generation, but there's no sense that kk teams have an identity right now. It all points to deeper problems, whether in the development set up, or the club game, or maybe in the lack of flexibility in the relationship between the two. There needs to be a root and branch review of the whole system in the county to identify what is and isn't working. There's no shortage of brilliant and committed people running things at every level but somewhere along the way things aren't joining up properly. I know our country board are not likely to go down the cork "mushrooms that grow up overnight" road of just sitting back and waiting for the next bunch of Tommys, Henrys and JJs to spring into existence. In fact it's with remembering that that unbelievable generation came along right after the last time standards were seen to have been slipping and the county executive took profound remedial action to fix the set up. In the process they created the greatest team in the history of the sport, and a development system that was the model for all other counties.

Well its not happening in camogie.u14s won A and B all ireland blirz todaybeating cork in both finals.15s and 17s both won all irelands this year.good work being done in camogie.

Realt Dearg Sec

Good to get some good news today anyway dubcat!

Pretty.Odd.

dzer2 wrote: »

Shane Walsh was an embarrassment to leave him on for that length was shocking.

Disagree. A lot of them were on par with him so I think it's disgraceful for you to single out one of them. If I remember correctly out of the 6 forwards he had scored 3 of the 4 points we had on the board at time of subbing.

Stopitwillya

Should eddie brennan get a third term with the under 21s? They definetly underachieved again this year considering the easy run to todays final. Will he be a contender to eventually replace cody? If things had gone well that would have seemed likely. If brennan is not in charge next who should get the job? Shefflin? Pat Hoban? Dj?

davidx40

After watching match again ....we were not at races physicaly at all....blown out of it ...they were stronger team....our two big men Donnelly and Blanchfield good under ball but not very athletic or agile ....they were a big team but very mobile and pacy ....

Dionysis

There's a saying, insanity,: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Can't help but think that definition has some credance here in the discussions held on this forum over the past few months when it comes to a number of players and management.

Realt Dearg Sec

Dionysis wrote: »

There's a saying, insanity,: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Can't help but think that definition has some credance here in the discussions held on this forum over the past few months when it comes to a number of players and management.

What would you suggest?

dzer2

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What would you suggest?

Stay doing the same thing for another 10 yrs:eek:

Realt Dearg Sec

dzer2 wrote: »

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What would you suggest?

Stay doing the same thing for another 10 yrs:eek:

Yeah but sarcasm aside, what would you do instead?

Dionysis

Numerous suggestions have been made, as well as the same faults highlighted prior to games for people to say we are wrong or too critical, for them only to come to fruition during games.

One thing is for sure, kk have a serious problem with underage, we are not converting talent to the senior grades; the underage have fallen behind; the old problems of picking the favourites in clubs has come back; a lack of managers; an unwillingness to realise that the game has moved on and we are physically way behind; no divisional sides at senior grade for junior and maybe intermediate teams to make up a side; kk paying lip service to the u-21 grade to the detriment of the senior team

dzer2

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah but sarcasm aside, what would you do instead?

We are 10 yrs humping ball into the forwards, win your own ball mentality. I remember the minor final in 08 we won it in the last minute with a goal after pumping ball after ball wide from the half back line.

In 12 it was showed our backs were not quick enough. We won the AI but in fairness the forwards (Henry) dug us out.

In 14 again it was the forwards in the replay even if Kelly did his best to beat us.

In 15 again Galway made hay for the first half and only the ref didn't send Coen off sent a message to Cody and Co. to get really physical in the second half and Galway had no answer.

Last yr Tipp had their 2008 everything they hit turned to gold.

A player doesnt become a bad player to be tossed aside after a bad game. Cody has done this time and time again. Now he is looking at these guys week in week out. If Joyce or some of the forwards are not good enough then get in others and try them.
I have said on here too many times the squads are a promotion of the coaches or in the click kids. Too many better hurlers being ignored. Teachers and the coach's coaches running the squads. These guys are not coaching at club level and are having their heads turned by lads telling them that if their kid is not on the school team or in with squads then they will only hurl with the club. I was standing on the side line when a coach took off a particular player who was playing sh1te and was told by the parent that the kid wouldn't hurl again for him if he ever took him off again.
As I have said here time and time again no way can the squad system pick up all the developing players at each age yet there is never any addition to the squads. Take a look through this thread Lads are still talking about the same lads that were on the minor team 3 yrs ago. I know at least 3 players from a club close (not my own) that are better than the few lads on that u21 panel that have never got the call. These guys are playing senior with their clubs and have developed more in that 3 yrs.

But that is from a bitter auld lad who never hit a ball in anger and doesn't contribute to the club, has a ticket for every AI and never goes to ere a game:p

Dionysis

Topcat32 wrote: »

Did the guy from Cork know who won minor 3 years ago and could easily won it again 2 years ago. But then again if the guy is from Cork he must know what he is talking about, I didnt see any problems with the touch of the Kilkenny team against Westmeath, what I did see was a home team of a county which had targeted the match as one of their biggest games of the year put their bodies on the line more than the Kilkenny team did, how for example he thinks Clare have a good under 21 team this year is a bit of a mystery to me.

The signs back in June and we ridicule people for highlighting them, but yesterday has been coming a long time. It's like AA, first step to recovery is to realise we have a problem.

This is not a dig against Topcat32, it's highlighting that we have seen this issue coming and no-one wants to hear that we have a massive problem.

dubcat51

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What would you suggest?

Bring in jackie