Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Topcat32

dzer2 wrote: »

We are 10 yrs humping ball into the forwards, win your own ball mentality. I remember the minor final in 08 we won it in the last minute with a goal after pumping ball after ball wide from the half back line.

In 12 it was showed our backs were not quick enough. We won the AI but in fairness the forwards (Henry) dug us out.

In 14 again it was the forwards in the replay even if Kelly did his best to beat us.

In 15 again Galway made hay for the first half and only the ref didn't send Coen off sent a message to Cody and Co. to get really physical in the second half and Galway had no answer.

Last yr Tipp had their 2008 everything they hit turned to gold.

A player doesnt become a bad player to be tossed aside after a bad game. Cody has done this time and time again. Now he is looking at these guys week in week out. If Joyce or some of the forwards are not good enough then get in others and try them.
I have said on here too many times the squads are a promotion of the coaches or in the click kids. Too many better hurlers being ignored. Teachers and the coach's coaches running the squads. These guys are not coaching at club level and are having their heads turned by lads telling them that if their kid is not on the school team or in with squads then they will only hurl with the club. I was standing on the side line when a coach took off a particular player who was playing sh1te and was told by the parent that the kid wouldn't hurl again for him if he ever took him off again.
As I have said here time and time again no way can the squad system pick up all the developing players at each age yet there is never any addition to the squads. Take a look through this thread Lads are still talking about the same lads that were on the minor team 3 yrs ago. I know at least 3 players from a club close (not my own) that are better than the few lads on that u21 panel that have never got the call. These guys are playing senior with their clubs and have developed more in that 3 yrs.

But that is from a bitter auld lad who never hit a ball in anger and doesn't contribute to the club, has a ticket for every AI and never goes to ere a game:p

Why cant you name these 3 players? Im sure that wouldnt be against the rules here, maybe your concerned that some auld lad will say something a bit stupid about them?

dubcat51

Look we top minor 21 and senior all irelands roll of honour.things are not as bad as some on here portray.yes we need a few players but every team needs that.its how many of the minors and 21s that push on from here that will determine how we go at senior.also I agree with the poster that we should look outside these panels for late developers(shouldnt be to hard in a small county)finally best of luck to the kittens today.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

Not so sure on Eddie Brennan. Not impressed so far on what he has done with a savagely talented U-21side.

Would think that at least 50% of this years poor display is down to player fatigue, the older experienced ones were in the last three all-irelands. And am firm on the fact as I said a number of weeks ago that an early exit might just give this team so energy back for next year.
The opportunity is now there for Cody ( leaving aside the more experienced 15 on the team) to pick a group of lads to bring back early, i.e. November and begin pushing these new/young lads, to have them right for the league. They'll need to be pushed to be able to compete with the more experienced/stronger players on other sides, but pushing them early will compensate for that. Then come the League keep playing them, and keep pushing the must win mentality in these young lads. Come championship when the older lads are back we will have options. The same needs to be done for the U-21 squad. We need to bring on the talent ( post 18 years of age) quicker, to support the U-21 and senior teams quicker, for the foreseeable future. If our U-21 team loses this year it will be down to coaching team work and lack of a physical presence, as they have the raw talent. Clare won three all-Ireland U-21s by being fitter and more physical than other teams, along with a certain level of talent granted. But as you can see now, when fitness and talent even up at senior level, there not head and shoulders above the rest as the natural ability is lacking.

Dont want to have a dig really, but savagely talented? The only reason we can lose is lack of teamwork?

No mention of a lack of skill there from what I can see.

I actually agreed with what you said back then for the record.

brookville

What better hurlers are out there who weren't involved yesterday?kevin farrellI,gaffney??farrell would struggle physically yesterday..john walsh and shane walsh won't win high balls,alan murphy the same but apart from that our touch was poor I don't think eddie can be blamed for morrisey fumbling balls
Taking off leahy was baffling he should of being moved around.
Scanlon seems to be way off senior
Some of our lads look way physically off yesterday but it has to be said they have much more with senior experience cian lynch is 3 years playing senior an he stood out like a sore thumb.
Overall disappointed with yesterday's performance especially from mf up where we couldn't win a thing around half foward of like to see a review of the underage set up and proven coaches installed,dj and tom mullally are 2 who should be given jobs at minor or u21

brookville

dubcat51 wrote: »

Look we top minor 21 and senior all irelands roll of honour.things are not as bad as some on here portray.yes we need a few players but every team needs that.its how many of the minors and 21s that push on from here that will determine how we go at senior.also I agree with the poster that we should look outside these panels for late developers(shouldnt be to hard in a small county)finally best of luck to the kittens today.

U21 doesn't guarantee anything limerick know that more that more than anyone,clare won 3 in a row but have yet to kick on after 13 but the performance yesterday was like a team playing together for the first time and as I've said here several times they have about 5 starting senior which helps.we try pick one or two from each year;tipp ,galway do the same.

dzer2

Topcat32 wrote: »

Why cant you name these 3 players? Im sure that wouldnt be against the rules here, maybe your concerned that some auld lad will say something a bit stupid about them?

Hey lad I am from the north of the county loads of senior clubs up here why not go to some of these games and come back with a few names yourself and see do we agree;)

Topcat32

dzer2 wrote: »

Hey lad I am from the north of the county loads of senior clubs up here why not go to some of these games and come back with a few names yourself and see do we agree;)

To be fair if you cant make a county team playing with a Northern senior team, you are not good enough, if you had said south I might have come around to what you are saying.

Topcat32

dzer2 wrote: »

Hey lad I am from the north of the county loads of senior clubs up here why not go to some of these games and come back with a few names yourself and see do we agree;)

To be fair if you cant make a county team playing with a Northern senior team, you are not good enough, if you had said south I might have come around to what you are saying.

dzer2

Topcat32 wrote: »

To be fair if you cant make a county team playing with a Northern senior team, you are not good enough, if you had said south I might have come around to what you are saying.

Loads of them down there too

But the comment shows where you are really in terms of hurling bias
It never really bothers me where a chap is from as long as he his chance
Cody was that way too but has regressed lately

soft free

Hurling development doesn’t happen in isolation.
Whatever we may or may not be doing, other counties are working at development and currently at a higher level and more intensity than what we are at. Our much vaunted Development Squad system brought us an advantage at underage but that it no longer the case. And squads are only one part of the development of players, clubs are first and foremost,
As an example, Wexford, Laois, Dublin, Waterford and maybe others are bringing large numbers of players at u13 in at county and regional level together. Some might say that’s too early and there are pitfalls in it but there may be, in time, advantages to it.
This year Kilkenny scrapped the previous method of selecting players for u14 squads. Instead of clubs nominating players for u14, Kilkenny clubs agreed, in December 2016, to use the Paddy Grace Feile to identify players for u14 and across all grades at A,B and C. A lot of work went into that change but it will take a while to see if it is better than the previous system and clubs retain the power to change it.
Compare a young lad coming into a Kilkenny development squad at u14 to a young lad from another hurling county. The Kilkenny player will participate in maybe a maximum 20-24 sessions from April to end of August while a young lad, from say Wexford will have started at u13 over the previous winter and will, by August of the following year, may have done around 40-50 sessions, including blitzes. I’m just giving Wexford as an example, other counties would be similar. However, a young lad in Kilkenny will most likely be hurling in school and based on current standings, at a level higher than many other counties. Swings and roundabouts: hurling at a higher school level vs collective sessions, elements of S&C, team development etc. Kilkenny over the past few years have delivered programmes over the winter aimed at introducing awareness and basic techniques of own body weight exercises and flexibility, etc. This years u14s will begin that in October/ November, based on the last few years programme. (Kilkenny this year also introduced regional blitz type session where players not involved in squads trained collectively with players from other clubs)

Clearly, Limerick were the much better team yesterday. Physically, skill wise and team work , they displayed higher levels than Kilkenny did and were the better team more than score line indicated. While a number of Limerick players are involved at senior level and hence have a higher level of conditioning and hurling, it is not the only reason why they won. I don’t about others but I have only seen the u21 in matches and not training. But I have seen players from my own club and others being close enough to the level. The selection process of players and a team is led by and filtered through management’s experience and expectations. The panel selected yesterday and the team that started was, in their view, the best available. Some of us might disagree and I would number amongst them. Comparing the minor result from both teams in 2014 was a futile exercise. The match yesterday showed that in the intervening years Limerick had passed Kilkenny out and anyone with a passing knowledge of what other counties are doing would have known that.
It is or it should be that clubs are where players are. It is in school teams and squads where the stronger player get stronger. That is not happening at the moment. The success of St. Kierans and other schools tends to skew the relative strength of Kilkenny underage hurling.
Some posters calling for ex county players to be involved in squad level. This has been happening and this year DJ was the coach for the u14s (came in last year for football). JJ Delaney and others took sessions this year. Should there be more? Depends. Are they good coaches? That’s the question.
So we can look back this year at provincial wins at minor and u21. On their own, they are merited. But our u17s, who were untouchable in Forristal at u14, were beaten and well beaten by a Dublin team who were miles off them three years ago. How did that happen? Not rocket science but evidence, if it were needed, that other counties were working harder to catch up and have passed us out, at underage at least. The change made at u14 this year might be a sign that we are slowly beginning to think differently. But working hard at club level will mean less hard work as players develop. Develop skills, flexibility, strength, team work and a work ethic that starts with individual responsibility will help us get back to parity. Parity is where we are at. We are no longer top of the tree. At underage, we haven’t been for a few years. Club hurling, these past few years, has been of an ordinary standard at senior. Intermediate has been a bit better. It is for clubs to do the groundwork. Squads and schools, with or without ex-players coaching or teaching, is where we need to begin again. The rest, squads, inter county teams, will reap benefits allied with good structures and resources.

Cornerback1

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Should eddie brennan get a third term with the under 21s? They definetly underachieved again this year considering the easy run to todays final. Will he be a contender to eventually replace cody? If things had gone well that would have seemed likely. If brennan is not in charge next who should get the job? Shefflin? Pat Hoban? Dj?

I wouldn't be a big fan of bringing a manager in on account of their playing CV. This is totally wrong but in the GAA, both codes and a few other sports it seems to be the way at the minute. X was a great player, won this and that, therefore he will probably be a good manager. This 'fast track' approach doesn't really work in my opinion. Not sure what Eddie's experience is in terms of management but to get the U21 was a big ask for him and will this be how he will be defined as a manager? I hope not. I think managers should get loads of experience first with schools, clubs and uni's etc. first before getting a county job. That's just my opinion.


Take D.J. for example. He's building up a good CV with Carlow IT this past few years. He was also doing coaching sesssions with Ulster GAA and other provincies etc. so he's building up all his management skills. I like this approach. Just my opinion in terms of county managers and no disrepect to Eddie.

Topcat32

dzer2 wrote: »

Loads of them down there too

But the comment shows where you are really in terms of hurling bias
It never really bothers me where a chap is from as long as he his chance
Cody was that way too but has regressed lately

I have no bias at all, I really hope that all those players you mentioned are there, it just undermines your argument that you cant even give one name.

dzer2

Topcat32 wrote: »

I have no bias at all, I really hope that all those players you mentioned are there, it just undermines your argument that you cant even give one name.

No one good enough in the north clubs yeah no bias,

Topcat32

dzer2 wrote: »

No one good enough in the north clubs yeah no bias,

Listen this is getting boring, I just asked you to name players not on the under 21 panel from any part of the county who should have been there, was genuinely interested in your thoughts, it was you who brought up the north south thing, where did I say that nobody from the North wasnt good enough, I thought Delaney and Blanchfield were some of the only players who came out of the game well yesterday, both from Northern clubs as I understand it.

Powerhouse

dubcat51 wrote: »

Look we top minor 21 and senior all irelands roll of honour.things are not as bad as some on here portray./QUOTE]

You are almost certainly right in that things are not as bad as people portray as people always overreact but referring to the roll of honour is irrelevant. Cork topped the roll of honour in all the grades 15 years ago and in 48 All Ireland finals across the three grades since they have qualified for just 7, winning just 2. Topping the roll of honour did not mean much in their case.

minty81

Ryan Bergin starts all ireland semi yet not named on panel for the final? Not injured so seems v strange

dastardly00

Best of luck to the senior camogie team. Throw-in at 4pm, live on RTE2. I think if they can play to their potential then they can beat Cork!

minty81

St Kierans have dominated colleges hurling in last 6/7 years. Kk cbs their nearest challengers. So my question is whats going on at minor and u-21 level to develop these players? Yesterday summed it up. 3 years ago i watched our minor team all though the year and thought that it was the best we'd had in 10 years. But that group has regressed so much and the county board needs to ask why.
I don't have an issue with eddie as manager, he's the figurehead. The bigger issue in my view is the inexperienced backroom team he selected. Richie Neill, richie doyle and bob aylward all great hurling men but what coaching experience do any have?
Our strategy yesterday was lash it down the field and win your own ball. Same as all kk strategy the last 15 years. But only donnelly and blanch could compete physically with limerick so we needed to play cuter. This is where coaching comes in.
The county board need to do some serious thinking on next years management team and we need a review on why outstanding hurlers are regressing after 16/17

Dionysis

Lads I think it's fair to say, kk have performed very badly at underage since '08. Also things are looking downhill rapidly since then. Ok we won minors in '10 and '14, but if your not converting to senior grades then there's a problem. And let's be fair we have a big problem, both on the pitch and on the sidelines. Not cutting it in either area. Time for the county board to take this problem seriously.

Realt Dearg Sec

minty81 wrote: »

St Kierans have dominated colleges hurling in last 6/7 years. Kk cbs their nearest challengers. So my question is whats going on at minor and u-21 level to develop these players? Yesterday summed it up. 3 years ago i watched our minor team all though the year and thought that it was the best we'd had in 10 years. But that group has regressed so much and the county board needs to ask why.
I don't have an issue with eddie as manager, he's the figurehead. The bigger issue in my view is the inexperienced backroom team he selected. Richie Neill, richie doyle and bob aylward all great hurling men but what coaching experience do any have?
Our strategy yesterday was lash it down the field and win your own ball. Same as all kk strategy the last 15 years. But only donnelly and blanch could compete physically with limerick so we needed to play cuter. This is where coaching comes in.
The county board need to do some serious thinking on next years management team and we need a review on why outstanding hurlers are regressing after 16/17

Kierans and cbs might be just pairing over the cracks though, kierans in particular bring in players from a much wider catchment than would be normal for any school, and hurlers make a point of going there. There is at least one poster here who thinks kierans actually damages our underage development, but at the very least their success is founded on conditions that don't necessarily reflect the real strength of underage hurling in the county.

That having been said you're right, massive regression at under 21, and not for the first time at that grade for us.

brookville

minty81 wrote: »

St Kierans have dominated colleges hurling in last 6/7 years. Kk cbs their nearest challengers. So my question is whats going on at minor and u-21 level to develop these players? Yesterday summed it up. 3 years ago i watched our minor team all though the year and thought that it was the best we'd had in 10 years. But that group has regressed so much and the county board needs to ask why.
I don't have an issue with eddie as manager, he's the figurehead. The bigger issue in my view is the inexperienced backroom team he selected. Richie Neill, richie doyle and bob aylward all great hurling men but what coaching experience do any have?
Our strategy yesterday was lash it down the field and win your own ball. Same as all kk strategy the last 15 years. But only donnelly and blanch could compete physically with limerick so we needed to play cuter. This is where coaching comes in.
The county board need to do some serious thinking on next years management team and we need a review on why outstanding hurlers are regressing after 16/17

I agree bout the backroom team even at minor some of the selectors haven't much experience I hope the county board look at appointing some proven coaches at underage,dj and tom mullally are two lads doing good work,pj delaney doing good work at st.mullins

Realt Dearg Sec

It'll be interesting to see how pj Ryan progresses in westmeath as well, it's definitely problematic to throw in lads in high profile jobs with no experience. There's a reason managers have to read their stripes, it's not just a tradition, managing is a complicated job that takes time to learn. Experience as a player is nice but there's more to it than that and it should take a long time to learn the ropes.

Actually I can't think of anyone who successfully transitioned from playing to a high profile management position as quickly as Brennan has done.

dastardly00

I think we're definitely the better team in the second half but this will probably still go down to the wire. Given the low scoring, if a team scores a goal, that will probably win it for them.

BoroMan32

Kilkenny's forwards not good enough on the day.

Not quite sure how they threw that game away to be honest.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Very exciting match, a draw would have been a fair result.I feel sorry for the girl who lost the ball at the end for the winning score.

Tipsy McSwagger

No wonder nobody watches Camogie, it's so poor it's embarrassing.

dastardly00

Gutted for the camogie team

Dirty Dingus McGee

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

No wonder nobody watches Camogie, it's so poor it's embarrassing.

I thought it's was an exciting match, some lively touches from players on both teams.

It's never going to be as good as the male version nothing can be done about that but I thought it was an entertaining match today.

BoroMan32

It was a decent match, largely due to the tightness all through the second half.

Conditions were bad, so some allowances must be made but on the whole the standard was rather poor. Kilkenny's inability to settle in possession for the last 8 minutes was woeful.

barneygumble99

BoroMan32 wrote: »

Kilkenny's forwards not good enough on the day.

Not quite sure how they threw that game away to be honest.

That last score was handed to cork on a plate, with a ribbon on top. I don't know how no one got a block on the cork lady for the winning point. So annoyed right now after a good comeback.

Topcat32

Kilkenny look the better team to me in the second half, Cork going a bit longer played into our hands as it brought Ann Dalton into the game, very dissapointing for the team.

soft free

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how pj Ryan progresses in westmeath as well, it's definitely problematic to throw in lads in high profile jobs with no experience. There's a reason managers have to read their stripes, it's not just a tradition, managing is a complicated job that takes time to learn. Experience as a player is nice but there's more to it than that and it should take a long time to learn the ropes.

Actually I can't think of anyone who successfully transitioned from playing to a high profile management position as quickly as Brennan has done.

I guess you mean PJ in Wexford? He is essentially the goalkeeping coach I think but was very vocal in Wexford Park the night Wexford spanked us!

I think there has to be an apprenticeship of sorts to learn the ropes. The challenge is where to get that opportunity? Apart from the annual switching of stalwarts in club management, the chances are probably more likely outside of Kilkenny. Tom Mullally has coached Wexford minors and u21 as well as at least one club team in Wexford and was involved in Carlow clubs too. He wasalso with Kilkenny minors when Adrian Ronan was involves. DJ is with IT Carlow, doing as lot with Martin Fogarty is his role as National Hurling Co-ordinator and sometimes does coaching sessions in Wexford as well. Should Kilkenny look at identifying a core of coaches and supporting them to develop skills in management through county squads/teams? Is that too far fetched or unrealistic? Either way, something new has to be considered. Every year the gap widens and while at senior we have been very strong, its from u21 down where the issuers are: fix them and we improve. No guarantees. A poster mentioned Bergin from John Lockes. I was wondering what the story was. Same lad I recall getting subbed v Galway in 2015 when playing solid in the corner.

raindodger

Limerick man here, so starved of any success will read anything abou t yesterdays match.
Can see by the tone of the discussion why ye were at the top for so long and it wont be long before your back there again.
If ye think your having a famine imagine how we feel like,
also ye were very gracious in defeat

barneygumble99

raindodger wrote: »

Limerick man here, so starved of any success will read anything abou t yesterdays match.
Can see by the tone of the discussion why ye were at the top for so long and it wont be long before your back there again.
If ye think your having a famine imagine how we feel like,
also ye were very gracious in defeat

Congrats to ye down there in Limerick. Hope ye can transition the U21 success to senior achievers in the years to come. Also as a side note Limerick supporters are top class, even during a 'famine'.

brookville

barneygumble99 wrote: »

Congrats to ye down there in Limerick. Hope ye can transition the U21 success to senior achievers in the years to come. Also as a side note Limerick supporters are top class, even during a 'famine'.

Yea fair play to limerick yesterday,very good team and great passionate supporters

sportsmaddad

soft free wrote: »

Hurling development doesn’t happen in isolation.
Whatever we may or may not be doing, other counties are working at development and currently at a higher level and more intensity than what we are at. Our much vaunted Development Squad system brought us an advantage at underage but that it no longer the case. And squads are only one part of the development of players, clubs are first and foremost,

soft free - I can see you've put a lot of thought, and have a lot of relevant info, into your post. Definitely a topic for discussion in the quiet months ahead. A few comments I'd add:

U14 - I for one believe that the Kilkenny ‘softly softly’ approach of phasing in players to the development squad structure is preferable. I think the approach in other counties puts on too much pressure at a very young age, and the U14 Tony Forristal tournament may become the be all and end all for them.

U17 - I take your point about Kilkenny's demise from U14 kingpins 3 years ago. However, they lost a big number of their key players to this year’s minor team. I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, Dublin and eventual winners Cork managed to play players on both panels. Looking at KK's minor semi-final, the U17s were certainly robbed of a couple of key personnel.

Regional 'development' blitzes - did they actually get off the ground? I heard them announced early on, but didn't hear anything more about them. I'm involved at club level and they certainly didn’t filter down to our club.

Clubs - I think a huge amount is being done at club level, but I think they're badly hamstrung by the underage fixtures mess. Let me take U16 as an example. The season consists of about 5 or 6 games played over the month of April, then a championship of max 4 games (just 1 for half the clubs!) played over 2 or 3 weeks in August. Pick up even a small injury, or go away for a week off at the wrong time, and you could miss the whole thing. These lads can end up with very little hurling during a crucial phase of their development.

Like I say, you could have started up a topic for lively discussion in the off season…

jeff bingham

A couple of posters have mentioned divisional teams. How exactly does it work? Example if there was a South and North junior divisional team competing at senior. Do players play championship at both levels or just play the league at senior and junior champ with the club?

We do lose some very good junior club players after minor/21s(as potential senior intercounty) because the jump in training and matches is pretty big at the moment.

lim4ev

Another Limerick man here lads and have been reading yer posts I think re yesterday's match we were the better team but in first half I felt had ye not been so wasteful it could have been closer a few balls misdirected by your forwards that could have caused us problems had the passes came off. I wouldn't be despondent if I was a Kk man huge tradition and piles of young lads hurling so ye'll always be there and thereabouts plus the success yeve had in last decade or so would do even the top 3 counties for a lifetime I can only imagine what it must have felt like we're so starved I actually watched the 2014 semi final on YouTube today really hope we can learn from past mistakes and push on with this crop and try end our famine.

Topcat32

jeff bingham wrote: »

A couple of posters have mentioned divisional teams. How exactly does it work? Example if there was a South and North junior divisional team competing at senior. Do players play championship at both levels or just play the league at senior and junior champ with the club?

We do lose some very good junior club players after minor/21s(as potential senior intercounty) because the jump in training and matches is pretty big at the moment.

In Cork and Kerry, players on divisonal teams play county championship for both the relevent senior and junior/intermediate teams.

Kerry have a seperate senior club championship and the winners of that final play in the provincial club championship if the winners of the actual county championship is a divisional team.

soft free

sportsmaddad wrote: »

soft free - I can see you've put a lot of thought, and have a lot of relevant info, into your post. Definitely a topic for discussion in the quiet months ahead. A few comments I'd add:

U14 - I for one believe that the Kilkenny ‘softly softly’ approach of phasing in players to the development squad structure is preferable. I think the approach in other counties puts on too much pressure at a very young age, and the U14 Tony Forristal tournament may become the be all and end all for them.

U17 - I take your point about Kilkenny's demise from U14 kingpins 3 years ago. However, they lost a big number of their key players to this year’s minor team. I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, Dublin and eventual winners Cork managed to play players on both panels. Looking at KK's minor semi-final, the U17s were certainly robbed of a couple of key personnel.

Regional 'development' blitzes - did they actually get off the ground? I heard them announced early on, but didn't hear anything more about them. I'm involved at club level and they certainly didn’t filter down to our club.

Clubs - I think a huge amount is being done at club level, but I think they're badly hamstrung by the underage fixtures mess. Let me take U16 as an example. The season consists of about 5 or 6 games played over the month of April, then a championship of max 4 games (just 1 for half the clubs!) played over 2 or 3 weeks in August. Pick up even a small injury, or go away for a week off at the wrong time, and you could miss the whole thing. These lads can end up with very little hurling during a crucial phase of their development.

Like I say, you could have started up a topic for lively discussion in the off season…

U16 needs a revamp, no doubt. A few years ago we went away over Easter and missed two games. A good few 16s will also hurl minor so they are getting games but that age, for me, is a critical in the areas of physical and mental development.

Clubs are working hard, some could be doing more and I include my own in that. Generally

The u13/14 introduction is an interesting one. I've always been of the view that 14 is time enough for lads but I wonder is there an advantage to it in player development terms but with work any advantages gained can be overcome with good coaching and plenty of games. I highlighted other counties going at u13 as an indication of where some trends are heading towards.

I'm not overly pessimistic for the future, far from it. But I sense that this year at inter county level we have been cranky in our hurling, kind of playing without any verve. I've no idea as to why.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that all serious hurling counties are working on development when for many years they were not. I think we need to focus as much resources and energy on clubs as we can for the obvious reasons. I wouldn't be one for ripping it what we have done in the past but more like sharpening the lead. The weight of expectation for Kilkenny inter county hurling comes not just the past 130 years but the Cody era also. I've no idea whether we will ever see players the caliber of Tommy, JJ, Mick Kavanagh again but our coaching, club, school, squads and inter county has to be as good as it can be to make players as technically competent and as ready as they can be.

Village87

Where was the physicality and hunger Saturday and again as with the senior, a lack of leadership.

Kilkenny hurling is at the lowest it has been in a while.

Look at the club Senior and Intermediate, the best players are all late 20s and thirty's. If i go to a club match now its still to see, Jackie, Eoin Larkin, TJ, Fennellys, Gorta, John Dalton, Wally Walsh, Pat Hartley, Brian Hogan, Tommy Walsh, JJ Delaney, Richie Hogan, Paddy Hogan, Richie Power(when he plays), Noel Hickey, Noel Mcgree, Eddie Brennan(when he plays).

Time for all these young pretenders to step up for there clubs now before their intercounty careers start, like teams on the past have been built.

They are sheltered from Kierans to minor to u21 then on the senior panel and a lot of them are very average when asked to step up for their clubs.

brookville

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=275598

Loughnane not holding back anyway

MfMan

That's a good sign for KK so, considering that the 'amiable curate' guided Galway to victory this year.

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/ger-loughnane-mounts-savage-attack-on-galway-players-and-ridicules-their-fr-trendy-manager-338821

Hawkeye6

Good to finally see some proper debate regarding where Kilkenny are now and are going over the past few days thanks to the input of some fresh posters. With club matches this weekend, it will be interesting to see club “systems” and style of play as much as individual performances. Some players may look really good but they might be playing for or against a team that may allow them to do so, but the likelihood of the same freedom is sparse at inter county level. I think this is a factor a lot of people are forgetting in Kilkenny at the moment, with the rise popularity of “systems” at inter county level. Therefore a lot of the young players who are rightly rated very highly, disappoint on the inter county stage. They are not used to playing this type of game.

Watched a Waterford intermediate club playing recently and although their skill level was not wonderful, they were trying to play a similar “system” or style to the Waterford senior team. We want our players to adapt to inter county defensive systems, but I’m not sure if any clubs in Kilkenny are playing this way. Training sessions at county level, particularly at underage (given the scarcity of session together) is not a lot to allow players to practice and adapt.

The Camogie final, showed that possibly, the Camogie management teams are further ahead in this regard. Yes, Kilkenny lost, but it was a game that could have gone either way up to the last puck. Some might suggest to just go out and attack, but for a long number of years Kilkenny Camogie teams were doing that with little success, since last year and the introduction of a “system”, trophies are being won. (2 leagues, 1 Senior AI, 1 Intermediate AI and 1 senior Leinster)

Have we anything to be optimistic about. I did a short Analysis of where the 4 south east counties are after 2017. You can decide which county should be the most optimistic. Interestingly, Kilkenny are the only ones with a senior trophy. Waterford and Wexford have no trophy of any kind in 2017 hurling.

KILKENNY
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Winners -League QF - Leinster SF - AI Qualifier
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Champions - AI Champions
UNDER-21: Leinster Champions - AI Finalists
MINOR: Leinster Champions - AI Semi Finalist
UNDER-16: AI Champions
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

TIPPERARY
SENIOR: Did not enter Munster League - League Finalists - Munster QF - AI SF
INTERMEDIATE: Did not enter
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: AI Finalists
UNDER 14: AI Champions

WATERFORD
SENIOR: 4th of 5 teams - League QF -Munster SF - AI Finalists
INTERMEDIATE: Munster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

WEXFORD
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Semi Finalists - League SF - Leinster Finalists -AI QF
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Leinster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Leinster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

So maybe the above contradicts the use of “systems”. Oh and Kilkenny are the only ones with a football trophy too (British Junior). Look forward to more improved discussion over the coming weeks and not just player name dropping.

Village87

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Good to finally see some proper debate regarding where Kilkenny are now and are going over the past few days thanks to the input of some fresh posters. With club matches this weekend, it will be interesting to see club “systems” and style of play as much as individual performances. Some players may look really good but they might be playing for or against a team that may allow them to do so, but the likelihood of the same freedom is sparse at inter county level. I think this is a factor a lot of people are forgetting in Kilkenny at the moment, with the rise popularity of “systems” at inter county level. Therefore a lot of the young players who are rightly rated very highly, disappoint on the inter county stage. They are not used to playing this type of game.

Watched a Waterford intermediate club playing recently and although their skill level was not wonderful, they were trying to play a similar “system” or style to the Waterford senior team. We want our players to adapt to inter county defensive systems, but I’m not sure if any clubs in Kilkenny are playing this way. Training sessions at county level, particularly at underage (given the scarcity of session together) is not a lot to allow players to practice and adapt.

The Camogie final, showed that possibly, the Camogie management teams are further ahead in this regard. Yes, Kilkenny lost, but it was a game that could have gone either way up to the last puck. Some might suggest to just go out and attack, but for a long number of years Kilkenny Camogie teams were doing that with little success, since last year and the introduction of a “system”, trophies are being won. (2 leagues, 1 Senior AI, 1 Intermediate AI and 1 senior Leinster)

Have we anything to be optimistic about. I did a short Analysis of where the 4 south east counties are after 2017. You can decide which county should be the most optimistic. Interestingly, Kilkenny are the only ones with a senior trophy. Waterford and Wexford have no trophy of any kind in 2017 hurling.

KILKENNY
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Winners -League QF - Leinster SF - AI Qualifier
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Champions - AI Champions
UNDER-21: Leinster Champions - AI Finalists
MINOR: Leinster Champions - AI Semi Finalist
UNDER-16: AI Champions
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

TIPPERARY
SENIOR: Did not enter Munster League - League Finalists - Munster QF - AI SF
INTERMEDIATE: Did not enter
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: AI Finalists
UNDER 14: AI Champions

WATERFORD
SENIOR: 4th of 5 teams - League QF -Munster SF - AI Finalists
INTERMEDIATE: Munster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

WEXFORD
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Semi Finalists - League SF - Leinster Finalists -AI QF
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Leinster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Leinster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

So maybe the above contradicts the use of “systems”. Oh and Kilkenny are the only ones with a football trophy too (British Junior). Look forward to more improved discussion over the coming weeks and not just player name dropping.

If a player is good enough he sticks out a mile, potential, work rate, skill will always overcome a system.

dubcat51

Village87 wrote: »

If a player is good enough he sticks out a mile, potential, work rate, skill will always overcome a system.

Forget systems they dont win the big one.just pick our best players in their best positions and let them.hurl.

minty81

Cody staying on. No changes to the backroom.

brookville

minty81 wrote: »

Cody staying on. No changes to the backroom.

Heard this myself although I would of liked fresh voices

minty81

brookville wrote: »

minty81 wrote: »

Cody staying on. No changes to the backroom.

Heard this myself although I would of liked fresh voices

Yea really surprised and disappointed no new coach in the backroom

dobbs2210

minty81 wrote: »

Yea really surprised and disappointed no new coach in the backroom

Under Brian Cody...a new forward thinking hands on coach who will develop a clear system and plan of hurling on field will not and never be allowed under his reign.

The driving balls into sky with the mantra of 'win your own ball' will continue at pace.