Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

sasta le

You have to admire his hunger have a sneaky feeling KK could still give it a go

Village87

Brian "Arsene Wenger" Cody.. Expecting the same results as this year.
Cody had the greatest team of all time with little or competition the odd burst from Cork or Tipp, gauranteed all Ireland semi final every year.

Now the competition is after catching up, im looking forward to seeing how Brian Cody can manage a team where he has to maximise all his resources.

Last year Wexford beat them in Nowlan Park and we all expected a plan for the game in Wexford Park but we were shown to be naive on the sideline. Big year for the management

dastardly00

Village87 wrote: »

Brian "Arsene Wenger" Cody.. Expecting the same results as this year.
Cody had the greatest team of all time with little or competition the odd burst from Cork or Tipp, gauranteed all Ireland semi final every year.

Now the competition is after catching up, im looking forward to seeing how Brian Cody can manage a team where he has to maximise all his resources.

Last year Wexford beat them in Nowlan Park and we all expected a plan for the game in Wexford Park but we were shown to be naive on the sideline. Big year for the management

It's hard to disagree with the above.

BUT I do still have faith in Cody

Hawkeye6

The initial responses to my post on “systems” and stats was pretty much as expected. People in Kilkenny don’t want to know about “systems” or don’t believe in them. The responses are typical of most Kilkenny coaches at the moment. It’s players not systems. And to be honest I agree… to a certain extent. Bear with me and see what you think. Again I’m just trying to create discussion. I have no doubt many will disagree.

A few years ago, there was a hugely talented, skillful player playing with a junior club in Kilkenny. We all know him. From under-12 up he was the go to player. He usually played in any of the diamond positions, centre back/forward or midfield. He tried to cover every blade of grass on the pitch. He was playing with players who were ok, average or just poor, but there was no doubting his talent. He worked very hard for his own individual scores, some of exceptional quality. If he had an off day, his team had an off day. His obvious ability earned him a call up to the Kilkenny panel. At inter county level he was now playing with players who were more than ok, in fact some exceptional players. Unfortunately, our super talented player found it difficult to fit into the team, a Kilkenny team that played a like a typical conventional and traditional Kilkenny team. He was constantly in the wrong position to receive the ball from a team mate. He was constantly over playing the ball. He was consistently not taking the right option and finding a team mate in a better position. The opposition were of a better standard also and the time he had on the ball was a lot less. After a number of underwhelming performances sprinkled with the odd flash of brilliant skill, he was released from the Kilkenny setup having failed to fit into the Kilkenny team setup.

Read the above paragraph and now use the word System instead of Team. That Kilkenny team was a conventional 6 backs, 2 midfielders and 6 forwards with the backs and forwards listed as right, centre, left, half and full. Here was the player who did stick out a mile but did not fit into the team or the modern word “system”.

Fast forward to now. Any of you who were at the Camogie final on Sunday (shame on those of you who weren’t, want to be a very good reason) would have noticed when the ball was thrown in, there was no traditional lineup of backs and forwards in the positions of right, centre, left, half and full. Something that is prevalent in Gaelic Football with a good while. It was still two teams, but both operating differently to the traditional setup or “system”. The positioning and movement of players from both teams was far from traditional throughout. Forget about the entertainment value. Elite sport is about results and getting an edge over the opposition in games where the margins are very small. The reality now is that at the top level there is no such thing as the positions of right, centre, left, half and full for forwards and backs. Soon, the teamsheet will be just numbers with the only guaranteed constant being number 1. Everyone has to play everywhere. Some of the Kilkenny Camogie forwards were back in their own corner back position clearing the ball on Sunday. And this has been the case for a while with the senior hurlers setup though not as pronounced as other counties. (Recall Eoin Larkin/Colin Fennelly defensive efforts). The fitness of players has changed with a top class player being able to run the length of a pitch twice as fast as his equivalent of30 years ago. The team (or system) setup has changed at inter county level. As I pointed out in my previous post, Waterford Intermediate clubs are trying to adapt, but how many Kilkenny clubs are trying to adapt, because obviously like our junior player, no matter how skillful you are, if you cannot fit into the team (or system) setup, contrary to thought, you are no addition to the county setup. The more exposure our club players get to the modern game (leave whether you like it or not for another day), the easier they will find to adapt when brought into an inter county team (or system).

So basically, I would suggest don’t get hung up too much on the term “system” , its still a team of 15 players, its just that the pieces do not function in the same sequence at inter county level any more. Therefore the players who stand out in upcoming club games , should be the ones which play in the games where positions are more fluid than traditionally understood.

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

Brian "Arsene Wenger" Cody.. Expecting the same results as this year.
Cody had the greatest team of all time with little or competition the odd burst from Cork or Tipp, gauranteed all Ireland semi final every year.

Now the competition is after catching up, im looking forward to seeing how Brian Cody can manage a team where he has to maximise all his resources.

Last year Wexford beat them in Nowlan Park and we all expected a plan for the game in Wexford Park but we were shown to be naive on the sideline. Big year for the management

I agree its a huge year for the seniors we can't have the same craic as last year chopping and changing lads.we know areas we're weak in and we have to iron out some positions and I feel we need padraig on the wing I'd hope delaney gets league time at 3 to see how he goes evan cody also hurling well for the boro.
We'll probably have a few retirements,joyce,pender,fennelly and john joe might go
Hopefully lads like hogan,walter,alyward can rediscover form next season
Maybe the club matches can earth a few players.
I still think cody is the right man to bring us foward because I think he got it wrong with his team selections in his 2 defeats
Hopefully the young lads we expect to see next year are put on programmes to try and physically get them ready

greenspurs

Hopefully the Management will use the League as a place to try out new players, and as a last chance saloon for lads that are in the Senior squad but not 'doing the biz' ......

northern lad

When will U 21 and minor be ratified ?

brookville

northern lad wrote: »

When will U 21 and minor be ratified ?

The minor and u21 will probably be announced around November.it's usually the same with the senior but i don't think cody was ever going to do a runner when we're down
Despite what people think I'd prefer to have him driving the bus than a fresh face although I would of liked new selectors,a modern coach especially I would of liked dj added but maybe he can be brought into the minors or 21s
I know people want more lads bloodied next spring but I didn't work this year so we have to get the balance right.
I know lads can't be judged on one game but billy ryan,Jason cleere,Sean morrissey,John walsh look a long way off senior
What hurlers are in the county who aren't on the panel?
I'd like to see John power back next season he has the experience and the ability hopefully the year out will help

dastardly00

greenspurs wrote: »

Hopefully the Management will use the League as a place to try out new players, and as a last chance saloon for lads that are in the Senior squad but not 'doing the biz' ......

But is that not what they did in the League this year?

There was a core group of players who played the majority of games (Eoin Murph, Paul Murph, TJ, Buckley, Padraig Walsh, Richie, Fogarty and Wally) and then there was a host of other players who rotated between playing 2-5 games.

dubcat51

Play our best players in their best positions and then look to fill in where were short.stop playing the lukes of padraig at full back.we over reacted to 16 v tipp

soft free

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

The initial responses to my post on “systems” and stats was pretty much as expected. People in Kilkenny don’t want to know about “systems” or don’t believe in them. The responses are typical of most Kilkenny coaches at the moment. It’s players not systems. And to be honest I agree… to a certain extent. Bear with me and see what you think. Again I’m just trying to create discussion. I have no doubt many will disagree.

A few years ago, there was a hugely talented, skillful player playing with a junior club in Kilkenny. We all know him. From under-12 up he was the go to player. He usually played in any of the diamond positions, centre back/forward or midfield. He tried to cover every blade of grass on the pitch. He was playing with players who were ok, average or just poor, but there was no doubting his talent. He worked very hard for his own individual scores, some of exceptional quality. If he had an off day, his team had an off day. His obvious ability earned him a call up to the Kilkenny panel. At inter county level he was now playing with players who were more than ok, in fact some exceptional players. Unfortunately, our super talented player found it difficult to fit into the team, a Kilkenny team that played a like a typical conventional and traditional Kilkenny team. He was constantly in the wrong position to receive the ball from a team mate. He was constantly over playing the ball. He was consistently not taking the right option and finding a team mate in a better position. The opposition were of a better standard also and the time he had on the ball was a lot less. After a number of underwhelming performances sprinkled with the odd flash of brilliant skill, he was released from the Kilkenny setup having failed to fit into the Kilkenny team setup.

Read the above paragraph and now use the word System instead of Team. That Kilkenny team was a conventional 6 backs, 2 midfielders and 6 forwards with the backs and forwards listed as right, centre, left, half and full. Here was the player who did stick out a mile but did not fit into the team or the modern word “system”.

Fast forward to now. Any of you who were at the Camogie final on Sunday (shame on those of you who weren’t, want to be a very good reason) would have noticed when the ball was thrown in, there was no traditional lineup of backs and forwards in the positions of right, centre, left, half and full. Something that is prevalent in Gaelic Football with a good while. It was still two teams, but both operating differently to the traditional setup or “system”. The positioning and movement of players from both teams was far from traditional throughout. Forget about the entertainment value. Elite sport is about results and getting an edge over the opposition in games where the margins are very small. The reality now is that at the top level there is no such thing as the positions of right, centre, left, half and full for forwards and backs. Soon, the teamsheet will be just numbers with the only guaranteed constant being number 1. Everyone has to play everywhere. Some of the Kilkenny Camogie forwards were back in their own corner back position clearing the ball on Sunday. And this has been the case for a while with the senior hurlers setup though not as pronounced as other counties. (Recall Eoin Larkin/Colin Fennelly defensive efforts). The fitness of players has changed with a top class player being able to run the length of a pitch twice as fast as his equivalent of30 years ago. The team (or system) setup has changed at inter county level. As I pointed out in my previous post, Waterford Intermediate clubs are trying to adapt, but how many Kilkenny clubs are trying to adapt, because obviously like our junior player, no matter how skillful you are, if you cannot fit into the team (or system) setup, contrary to thought, you are no addition to the county setup. The more exposure our club players get to the modern game (leave whether you like it or not for another day), the easier they will find to adapt when brought into an inter county team (or system).

So basically, I would suggest don’t get hung up too much on the term “system” , its still a team of 15 players, its just that the pieces do not function in the same sequence at inter county level any more. Therefore the players who stand out in upcoming club games , should be the ones which play in the games where positions are more fluid than traditionally understood.

On Kilkenny specifically, we had the type of player who had the confidence and skills to go where they were needed. These past two years that has not been an option given that while honest and hard working, their ability to go where they were needed didn't necessarily bring any bounce from it.

The systems that people think of are those associated with Davy and Derek. What we require now are players with confidence, fitness, flexibility and skill to play in a structure that has the confidence and in field leadership and off pitch support to read the game. And while that can be sharpened at inter county panel level, clubs are where players learn that. Therefore coaches need to have that confidence to focus on skills and beleif to respond to situations when required to do so. Hurling is instinctive and demands players to react and to have the confidence to do so and if that means ending up in the other end of the pitch then others players have to react accordingly.

Richie Hogan's goal v Tipp in 2011 still, for me, captured some of all that's great about Kilkenny hurling. It involved a defender, a midfielder, a half forward coming out to midfield by the sideline, a smart handpass to Eddie Brennan, Shefflin taking Paudi Maher for a detour over to the Hogan Stand while Eddie heads towards goal. Hogan, instinctively knows to go where he is needed and with skill buries the ball. That verve has been missing. 4 players form that move are retired. But the move required confidence, skill and movement and verve. Can we coach that in clubs? Can we focus on developing players who are fit and strong and who don't have to be man mountains and who are encouraged to go where they are needed. Who can hurl the game as it unfolds?

brookville

dubcat51 wrote: »

Play our best players in their best positions and then look to fill in where were short.stop playing the lukes of padraig at full back.we over reacted to 16 v tipp

I agree and wondered why he didn't leave joyce at 3 because he wasn't our worst performer against wexford.
The stats prove that our fowards with the exception of tj weren't scoring enough to win matches this will have to be addressed with the positioning of the right
There's more problems than padraig at 3,too much uncertainty around lads like lennon,joey,lyng and paul murphy apart from the limerick match couldn't reach his usual heights.
Cody has a job to find all these new defenders apart from lawlor and delaney last saturday the other 4 look a long way off

JJs Left Hand

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Fast forward to now. Any of you who were at the Camogie final on Sunday (shame on those of you who weren’t, want to be a very good reason).

If they stopped letting them throw away the hurl every 5 seconds it might make it bearable but as long as they continue that I'm not going. I wouldn't mind only they're good enough to not do it but they still do and most of the time it doesn't even make sense. Its infuriating. That and the constant squealing. Dear God the squealing.

greenspurs

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

If they stopped letting them throw away the hurl every 5 seconds it might make it bearable but as long as they continue that I'm not going. I wouldn't mind only they're good enough to not do it but they still do and most of the time it doesn't even make sense. Its infuriating. That and the constant squealing. Dear God the squealing.

Ooh the Squealing was unbelievable, but hey, that was the sound of about 15,000 girls under the age of 16 enjoying the All Ireland ! It was great to be up there and to see all those kids at the game and for them to see the top camogie players in the country , and hopefully this will inspire them to keep playing the game and represent their county !!!
#SupportHerSport

Hawkeye6

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

If they stopped letting them throw away the hurl every 5 seconds it might make it bearable but as long as they continue that I'm not going. I wouldn't mind only they're good enough to not do it but they still do and most of the time it doesn't even make sense. Its infuriating. That and the constant squealing. Dear God the squealing.

Dinosaur!
Those girls are Kilkenny girls, elite Kilkenny GAA athletes and this is a KILKENNY GAA thread. They are someone's daughter, sister, granddaughter from Kilkenny.They put as much time into their sport as the men.

If Kilkenny hurling legends like Brian Cody and Tommy Walsh could support them, not just in the final by the way, you could make an effort if you are a Kilkenny GAA fan. I'm sure your mother is proud of your attitude towards girls sports.

As the previous poster said that "squealing" as you called it, is thousands of kids who can get into a senior final in Croke Park and have a wonderful day out. The future of the GAA! I think it's absolutely magnificent that they are there. They are there with their flags and banners, cheering and excited, not sitting in a premium box with a suit and a prawn sandwich. And those kids could tell you who is playing.

As for dropping the hurley, many lads from your era such as Pat Delaney, Kieran Purcell, Eddie Keher, Cloney Brennan etc. were thankful to be able to drop the hurley. You obviously didn't think much of them either. And thinking outside the box, there is a case for again allowing the dropping of the hurley in open play. It would help alleviate the development of some of the rucks, as players can use their dominant hand to release the ball quicker and more accurate.

Motivator

I can't believe Kilkenny are persisting with Cody. Obviously the county board haven't the balls to get rid of him and are waiting for him to walk. As an outsider, I'm delighted he's back for another year! It'll be another year where Kilkenny will win nothing.

Cody is finished and the writing has been on the wall for the last couple of years. I wonder will he be sacked if yee scrape through a qualifier and get humiliated by Waterford again?

djPSB

Any thoughts on this weekend's club games?

JJs Left Hand

I'm 31. Noone has ever dropped their hurl in my "era". And my mother couldn't give a **** about sport so I doubt she'll be overly judgemental on my no show at the camogie All Ireland.

The idea that you're a better KILKENNY GAA fan because you went to a camogie game is laughable. I was at an U14 game on Monday evening - there was a full round of games on. Were you there? Eh? Eh? These are the FUTURE! Because a true KILKENNY GAA man would have been there. And if you were there watching then why are you only watching and not coaching these kids? Because a true KILKENNY GAA man would be coaching.

Etc etc etc

Interesting to see if anyone reacts to Motivator. Went in both barrels there maybe lacking a bit of subtlety...

As for the club games St Martins will beat The Village......

brookville

Motivator wrote: »

I can't believe Kilkenny are persisting with Cody. Obviously the county board haven't the balls to get rid of him and are waiting for him to walk. As an outsider, I'm delighted he's back for another year! It'll be another year where Kilkenny will win nothing.

Cody is finished and the writing has been on the wall for the last couple of years. I wonder will he be sacked if yee scrape through a qualifier and get humiliated by Waterford again?

Writing on the wall the last few years?did kilkenny not win 2 years ago?beaten in an all Ireland the year after and lose in extra time to the finalist this year?too say cody is finished is a bit premature but 2017 is a huge year no doubt

BoroMan32

djPSB wrote: »

Any thoughts on this weekend's club games?

Senior:

First RD:

Shamrocks v Inistioge - Ballyhale have put in some indifferent displays during the league campaign and it wouldn't surprise me if Inistioge gave it a good go against them. It's one thing thinking there's a different gear there, but another thing actually finding it. Shamrocks by 2.

Danesfort v Comer - A free shot of sorts for Danesfort who'll probably be happy enough to have avoided the relegation scenario. They were decent against the Village but got goals at the right time and they'll have it tougher against a Comer side who are dogged and determined as ever. Comer by 2.

First RD Relegation:

Bridge v Mullinavat - Mullinavat can count themselves as very unlucky to have landed in a relegation semi. The Bridge started the campaign slowly but got better as things went on. These two served up a high scoring draw in the first round last year and you couldn't see there being much between them again. Vat by 1.

Village v Martins - Don't think this is a formality for the city side at all. Muckalee like nothing better then a cause, and they tend to put in 1 or 2 big efforts every year. We haven't seen it so far this year so it could come on Sunday. Saw the Village v Danesfort and it has to be said they were bloody atrocious, Jackie Tyrell and Eoin Larkin's powers are seriously on the wane and the supporting cast aren't up to much. Muckalee by 4.

dastardly00

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Interesting to see if anyone reacts to Motivator. Went in both barrels there maybe lacking a bit of subtlety...

I actually feel sorry for the chap at this stage... he clearly seems to have some issues...

swengall

Senior:

First RD:

Shamrocks v Inistioge - RI usually go well in Thomastown, Shamrocks could be more vulnerable here than say in competition. A few RI County U21s with a point to prove, a few key men with injuries for Shamrocks. Verdict: Rower

Danesfort v Comer - Both teams probably happy with drawing one another. Will be close one would think. RH CF battle could be key. Verdict: Danesfort

First RD Relegation:

Bridge v Mullinavat - 2 strong enough teams to be in the relegation position. Mvat have a stronger panel and BB down one player due to suspension. Vegas recently won Football, good win over Clara in Byrne Cup- generally going well. Verdict: Mullinvat.

Village v Martins - Village being brought a long way for this one, and will be under more pressure than Martins. St M have improved of late and fitness levels have come on. Verdict St Martins

Hawkeye6

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

The idea that you're a better KILKENNY GAA fan because you went to a camogie game is laughable. I was at an U14 game on Monday evening - there was a full round of games on. Were you there? Eh? Eh?

The truth be known I was NOT at an under-14 match on Monday night. I was at the Camogie homecoming. However, I was at an Under-14 match the middle of last week, will be at another this Saturday as well as Minor and Under-16 Please God. Was at Under-16 one on Tuesday, Under-12 tonight. BTW, there wasn't a full round of U14 on Monday night. 2 matches one of which was abandoned.

Note to oneself, this guy has issues of a chauvinist nature. Not worth derailing proper discussion for.

brookville

swengall wrote: »

Senior:

First RD:

Shamrocks v Inistioge - RI usually go well in Thomastown, Shamrocks could be more vulnerable here than say in competition. A few RI County U21s with a point to prove, a few key men with injuries for Shamrocks. Verdict: Rower

Danesfort v Comer - Both teams probably happy with drawing one another. Will be close one would think. RH CF battle could be key. Verdict: Danesfort

First RD Relegation:

Bridge v Mullinavat - 2 strong enough teams to be in the relegation position. Mvat have a stronger panel and BB down one player due to suspension. Vegas recently won Football, good win over Clara in Byrne Cup- generally going well. Verdict: Mullinvat.

Village v Martins - Village being brought a long way for this one, and will be under more pressure than Martins. St M have improved of late and fitness levels have come on. Verdict St Martins

Some good matches this wknd with the rower v shamrocks probably the standout and should bring a big crowd if it's a nice morning
Shamrocks were missing a few during the league will mick fennelly and company be back or can darragh joyce play for the rower?
The rower will fancy their chances but hard to back against shamrocks.

Danesfort are going well but so are comer who are scoring more this year I expect comer to shade this.
Vegas and the bridge will be tight but I think the vat have learnt from last year and might shade this.
I didnt expect the village to be in this situation but they should have too much for muackalee who'll relish this challenge but they'll probably find the scores difficult to come by

Realt Dearg Sec

Edit: Ugh, not my battle

Can anyone tell me when were the village last relegated? Don't ever remember it in my lifetime.

dobbs2210

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Edit: Ugh, not my battle

Can anyone tell me when were the village last relegated? Don't ever remember it in my lifetime.

Never were. The longest serving senior team in club history in Kilkenny. Won Junior in 1955 and came straight into senior as Intermediate didn't exist. Have held senior status since then.

They have freewheeled into the situation they find themselves in this season. Last season wasn't much better. St. Martins beat Village by 5 or 6 points last season as well.

tbiggertycome

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

I'm 31. Noone has ever dropped their hurl in my "era". And my mother couldn't give a **** about sport so I doubt she'll be overly judgemental on my no show at the camogie All Ireland.

The idea that you're a better KILKENNY GAA fan because you went to a camogie game is laughable. I was at an U14 game on Monday evening - there was a full round of games on. Were you there? Eh? Eh? These are the FUTURE! Because a true KILKENNY GAA man would have been there. And if you were there watching then why are you only watching and not coaching these kids? Because a true KILKENNY GAA man would be coaching.

Etc etc etc

I'm assuming or at least hoping that most of this is with tongue firmly in cheek.

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

The truth be known I was NOT at an under-14 match on Monday night. I was at the Camogie homecoming. However, I was at an Under-14 match the middle of last week, will be at another this Saturday as well as Minor and Under-16 Please God. Was at Under-16 one on Tuesday, Under-12 tonight. BTW, there wasn't a full round of U14 on Monday night. 2 matches one of which was abandoned.

Note to oneself, this guy has issues of a chauvinist nature. Not worth derailing proper discussion for.

This one-up-manship is tiresome. Would you not agree that you don't have to go to every match in the county to be interested in the GAA? I'd love to go to tonnes of games, I can't go to lots because of work, family or just general life getting in the way. This doesn't mean I'm not interested. Because someone didn't go to an under 14 match or the Camogie or whatever game doesn't mean you aren't a supporter. Its actually this kind of attitude that puts many people off attending club games as they feel they'll be looked down on for their lack of involvement.

To be honest if someone just wants to follow the Kilkenny Senior hurling team then that should be encouraged. If they just follow the Camogie that's fine too, if they only go to club games or underage games, who cares as long as they go and are interested in the sport we love. Why do you have to attend every game going to be a great GAA person?:(

A mother or father, who brings their kid to underage games and never goes to a senior game, are more important than self important hurlers on the ditch in my view. The more people watch of the sport the more they will get involved and by and large it will grow their interest in other levels of the sport. I think it's the kind of narrow minded carry on that puts people off our or any sport. If your not FANatical your not any kind of a FAN which is BS :mad:

Rant over :cool:

JJs Left Hand

Yea I wasn't being serious. Whether or not someone goes to a game is absolutely irrelevant to me.

tbiggertycome

I'm fairly sure I've said this on here since last years AI but I just want to pop a version of it up here now the intercounty season is totally done. I looked at us last winter and suggested that we're entering a 2 year rebuilding process for a few reasons.
1. There is a gap of a few years where there was not a huge amount of talent coming through
2. We still had big leaders up to last years AI and it will take a while for lads to realise they now need to be the leaders
3. With Codys style of management it will take a few years for lads to get the message of how much work is involved in reaching the top level as he will never spell it out for lads.

So after year 1 where are we?
1. I personally don't think the young lads were given enough exposure to Senior level and so we're probably not where I would hope we would be this winter in terms of players development.
2. I didn't really see anyone new step up as a leader on the field maybe Buckley but that would be about it, If anything I think lads who had been doing a bit of leading fell back last year
3. This will take time to take effect for those who will make it.

Personally I think any young lad wanting to make it with Kilkenny should read Jackies book and I would say they should treat it like a bible and read it at least once a year. I think it's the perfect handbook to teach lads what needs to be done to make it physically and also and probably more importantly mentally.

The two things that pop out of the book for me and the thing that made our great team great were two fundamentals.
1. Players who were totally driven.
2. Total belief in their team mates and the confidence that if they were picked Cody/management believed in them too.

So what did we see this year from our teams at all levels?
I think they were honest and hard working by and large they have skill so what was missing?
Well I think our U21's and minors showed some drive but not enough. Our seniors were almost completely lacking in drive bar a few exceptions Buckley, TJ, Fogarty, M Fennelly, P Murphy, Lester, E Murphy. The issue with some of these in terms of getting a performance was the secound element and thats belief.

I think the management showed no belief or very little at best in the players. Their team selection day to day was totally in consistent and also they individually messed with lads heads and I think that lead to a team were lads had very little self belief and very little belief in their team mates and they felt they had no belief from the management. This lead to the disjointed displays we saw from proven players. The only good thing that might come out of it is that players eyes may have been opened to what needs to be done to get to the level (for the newer lads) and from a leadership point of view (for the established lads).

I think If the management settle on 11 to 12 players and play them consistently in their best positions and plug in players around them we'll actually do well next year.

There are 3 things I would like to see happen next year
1. Players finding/rediscovering their drive to be the best
2. Belief in each other from management down
3. a game plane (no matter how basic)

I can tell you that all of this can be achieved in a very short space of time. I've seen it develop in my own club over the last 9 months. We were embarrassed in the championship last year and yet this year we're a different proposition for anyone we will face in the next few months. All of this was brought about by a management team which demanded the players to challenge themselves to get better, They all have. The management have belief in all the players that stuck around and work with them all to improve their weaknesses individually and team weaknesses. They've developed a very simple but highly effective gameplan, actually more a set of basic actions to be carried out when possible. The gameplan for the players is simple a few things they need to do when the opportunities occur but also to how to make them occur. The gameplan is not complicated or so prescriptive that lads are straight jacketed into playing in limited way. If a club can do this much this well in 9 months the county with boundless more time and skilfull players can definitely achieve better things next year if done right. I think we have the hurlers but have they the drive and belief to challenge is the only thing holding us back. I don't expect us to win the AI next year (it would be nice) but I think we should be challenging and really pushing on to be in an AI by 2019.

The future is bright and it will definitely have Black and Amber in it.

brookville

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I'm fairly sure I've said this on here since last years AI but I just want to pop a version of it up here now the intercounty season is totally done. I looked at us last winter and suggested that we're entering a 2 year rebuilding process for a few reasons.
1. There is a gap of a few years where there was not a huge amount of talent coming through
2. We still had big leaders up to last years AI and it will take a while for lads to realise they now need to be the leaders
3. With Codys style of management it will take a few years for lads to get the message of how much work is involved in reaching the top level as he will never spell it out for lads.

So after year 1 where are we?
1. I personally don't think the young lads were given enough exposure to Senior level and so we're probably not where I would hope we would be this winter in terms of players development.
2. I didn't really see anyone new step up as a leader on the field maybe Buckley but that would be about it, If anything I think lads who had been doing a bit of leading fell back last year
3. This will take time to take effect for those who will make it.

Personally I think any young lad wanting to make it with Kilkenny should read Jackies book and I would say they should treat it like a bible and read it at least once a year. I think it's the perfect handbook to teach lads what needs to be done to make it physically and also and probably more importantly mentally.

The two things that pop out of the book for me and the thing that made our great team great were two fundamentals.
1. Players who were totally driven.
2. Total belief in their team mates and the confidence that if they were picked Cody/management believed in them too.

So what did we see this year from our teams at all levels?
I think they were honest and hard working by and large they have skill so what was missing?
Well I think our U21's and minors showed some drive but not enough. Our seniors were almost completely lacking in drive bar a few exceptions Buckley, TJ, Fogarty, M Fennelly, P Murphy, Lester, E Murphy. The issue with some of these in terms of getting a performance was the secound element and thats belief.

I think the management showed no belief or very little at best in the players. Their team selection day to day was totally in consistent and also they individually messed with lads heads and I think that lead to a team were lads had very little self belief and very little belief in their team mates and they felt they had no belief from the management. This lead to the disjointed displays we saw from proven players. The only good thing that might come out of it is that players eyes may have been opened to what needs to be done to get to the level (for the newer lads) and from a leadership point of view (for the established lads).

I think If the management settle on 11 to 12 players and play them consistently in their best positions and plug in players around them we'll actually do well next year.

There are 3 things I would like to see happen next year
1. Players finding/rediscovering their drive to be the best
2. Belief in each other from management down
3. a game plane (no matter how basic)

I can tell you that all of this can be achieved in a very short space of time. I've seen it develop in my own club over the last 9 months. We were embarrassed in the championship last year and yet this year we're a different proposition for anyone we will face in the next few months. All of this was brought about by a management team which demanded the players to challenge themselves to get better, They all have. The management have belief in all the players that stuck around and work with them all to improve their weaknesses individually and team weaknesses. They've developed a very simple but highly effective gameplan, actually more a set of basic actions to be carried out when possible. The gameplan for the players is simple a few things they need to do when the opportunities occur but also to how to make them occur. The gameplan is not complicated or so prescriptive that lads are straight jacketed into playing in limited way. If a club can do this much this well in 9 months the county with boundless more time and skilfull players can definitely achieve better things next year if done right. I think we have the hurlers but have they the drive and belief to challenge is the only thing holding us back. I don't expect us to win the AI next year (it would be nice) but I think we should be challenging and really pushing on to be in an AI by 2019.

The future is bright and it will definitely have Black and Amber in it.

Good post hopefully we have a good league that can give us confidence going into the summer and some stability in the team we need to settle on few central positions if we can find a number 3 and move padraig out to his best position at 5.fogarty back to mf and a few forwards to add competion there's still a good core of players to compete

Motivator

dastardly00 wrote: »

I actually feel sorry for the chap at this stage... he clearly seems to have some issues...

Can I not ask a serious question about your fearless leader? Are you not allowed speak ill of the main man?

Surely the most ardent Kilkenny fan must be mystified by his decision to stay on? He's gotten all he can out of the players - there doesn't seem to be anyone coming through that wojld strike fear in to opponents such as a Shefflin, R. Hogan or Reid.

Was taking the piss with the last line of the original post but I was being serious with my summary of things. I think he's done, finished. But it has more to do with the players, current and potential than he himself. In my mind, 6 or 7 of the players that played against Waterford aren't on the same planet as those who filled those positions at the back end of the last decade.

Realt Dearg Sec

I think what mystifies us is your ongoing preoccupation with Kilkenny. Don't worry it's not just you, it's quite common among Waterford fans. I mean, that kind of Stockholm syndrome is understandable when you've had so little success compared with your neighbours, so I get why it would be tempting to go putting the boot in, but it just seems like ye haven't gotten over the inferiority complex, as demonstrated by your attempts to troll this thread in the last couple of months, before ye shat the course again in September.

Motivator

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I think what mystifies us is your ongoing preoccupation with Kilkenny. Don't worry it's not just you, it's quite common among Waterford fans. I mean, that kind of Stockholm syndrome is understandable when you've had so little success compared with your neighbours, so I get why it would be tempting to go putting the boot in, but it just seems like ye haven't gotten over the inferiority complex, as demonstrated by your attempts to troll this thread in the last couple of months, before ye shat the course again in September.

You're obviously still bitter after Waterford embarrassed Kilkenny down in Thurles.

Another reason I'm surprised Cody stayed on is that he might have to hide behind the linesman again the next time they meet Waterford. Hiding, mouthing and then cowardly pushing a poor linesman when McGrath stood up to him on the line. Cody was terrified of Derek and Dan.

Hope you boys weren't too bored for the summer after we made a show of ye in early July 😆

Realt Dearg Sec

Motivator wrote: »

You're obviously still bitter after Waterford embarrassed Kilkenny down in Thurles.

Another reason I'm surprised Cody stayed on is that he might have to hide behind the linesman again the next time they meet Waterford. Hiding, mouthing and then cowardly pushing a poor linesman when McGrath stood up to him on the line. Cody was terrified of Derek and Dan.

Hope you boys weren't too bored for the summer after we made a show of ye in early July ��

Not bitter at all, actually, I was supporting Waterford. Most KK people I know were supporting ye, because we're not obsessed with ye. But you're right, we probably are bitter at all the success ye nearly had this year. We'll never know the feeling of almost winning that is so deeply ingrained in the hurling culture of Waterford. And we are, of course, massively bitter about all the silverware that ye got quite close to winning. I'm sure Cody is very intimidated by all the All Ireland medals Derek and Dan dream of one day possessing.

Gentleman Off The Pitch

Motivator wrote: »

You're obviously still bitter after Waterford embarrassed Kilkenny down in Thurles.

Another reason I'm surprised Cody stayed on is that he might have to hide behind the linesman again the next time they meet Waterford. Hiding, mouthing and then cowardly pushing a poor linesman when McGrath stood up to him on the line. Cody was terrified of Derek and Dan.

Hope you boys weren't too bored for the summer after we made a show of ye in early July ��

You're going to be very embarrassed looking back on a lot of your posts when you grow up

bruschi

Christ, a Waterford lad talking about a team being embarrassed in a Kilkenny v Waterford game, but the 08 final is not the game he's talking about!

Being from wexford, we've been embarrassed enough times over the last few years, so being selfish, I'm delighted to see Kilkenny in this 'drought'. But it still wouldn't lead me to gloat over beating them this year. Twice in fact.

Motivator

bruschi wrote: »

Christ, a Waterford lad talking about a team being embarrassed in a Kilkenny v Waterford game, but the 08 final is not the game he's talking about!

Being from wexford, we've been embarrassed enough times over the last few years, so being selfish, I'm delighted to see Kilkenny in this 'drought'. But it still wouldn't lead me to gloat over beating them this year. Twice in fact.

Ssssssoak it in maaaaaan

buzzinfly83

Waterford man here. Huge respect for Kilkenny hurling and all the achievements. Whilst I would be happy for Waterford to win just one, I can't understand the silly comments or the gloating over winning one game. If anything would look to the success ye have had as something to be admired.

Realt Dearg Sec

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

Waterford man here. Huge respect for Kilkenny hurling and all the achievements. Whilst I would be happy for Waterford to win just one, I can't understand the silly comments or the gloating over winning one game. If anything would look to the success ye have had as something to be admired.

Sorry lad I don't mean to be sounding too high and mighty, motivators posts really invited the easy response. Like I said I supported Waterford in the final (actually kind of wanted a draw to get another big match out of the season), would be delighted if ye won one to reflect the great players that have been and in some cases still are on the team. Be interesting to see if ye can push on next year or the year after.

Amprodude

Motivator wrote: »

Can I not ask a serious question about your fearless leader? Are you not allowed speak ill of the main man?

Surely the most ardent Kilkenny fan must be mystified by his decision to stay on? He's gotten all he can out of the players - there doesn't seem to be anyone coming through that wojld strike fear in to opponents such as a Shefflin, R. Hogan or Reid.

Was taking the piss with the last line of the original post but I was being serious with my summary of things. I think he's done, finished. But it has more to do with the players, current and potential than he himself. In my mind, 6 or 7 of the players that played against Waterford aren't on the same planet as those who filled those positions at the back end of the last decade.

Amazing how Cody has stayed on but I think also he is finished and will probably turn out like Micky Harte in his future years of management and nothing to deliver with the current crop of players . Cody has been blessed with great players in the past but this present kilkenny team are nowhere as good as those of the last decade. No team will fear playing them. It's not looking good either that the minors and u21s are not winning and even struggling in Leinster. Hurling could be bleak in Kilkenny for a short while.

greenspurs

Amprodude wrote: »

Amazing how Cody has stayed on but I think also he is finished and will probably turn out like Micky Harte in his future years of management and nothing to deliver with the current crop of players . Cody has been blessed with great players in the past but this present kilkenny team are nowhere as good as those of the last decade. No team will fear playing them. It's not looking good either that the minors and u21s are not winning and even struggling in Leinster. Hurling could be bleak in Kilkenny for a short while.

I would look on Brian Cody staying on as his biggest challenge . Maybe the man sees the challenge is something he relishes?
He took over Kilkenny at a time in 98 , when Kilkenny had won 2 AllIrelands (only?) in 15 years (92+93) , and it took him until 2000 to win it.
So maybe he looks at it as a greater challenge to guide a team in transition back to the top , than to guide a team of brilliant hurlers to All Irelands.
Whatever people say , hes a fighter , and wouldnt shirk a challenge!

greenspurs

Motivator wrote: »

Ssssssoak it in maaaaaan

Would you ever go away yaa eejit.... You are embarrassing your county with your childish crap.....
Stop displaying your inferiority complex on the internet
60 years, tick tock...... 2008 etc, if you want us to start on you ??

brookville

greenspurs wrote: »

I would look on Brian Cody staying on as his biggest challenge . Maybe the man sees the challenge is something he relishes?
He took over Kilkenny at a time in 98 , when Kilkenny had won 2 AllIrelands (only?) in 15 years (92+93) , and it took him until 2000 to win it.
So maybe he looks at it as a greater challenge to guide a team in transition back to the top , than to guide a team of brilliant hurlers to All Irelands.
Whatever people say , hes a fighter , and wouldnt shirk a challenge!

His first year was 99 beaten by cork by a point won then in 00.
No doubt this is a big challenge to fill a few holes left by unbelievable hurlers we'll probably not see for a long time
jj,tommy,larkin,henry,power,eddie to name but a few.they don't exactly grow on trees they were exceptional individuals.
The easiest thing to do was leave after the tipp all Ireland in 14 when 5 lads retired knowing the replacements weren't there but he got another all Ireland in 15 with a much weaker panel than the previous year.
We were beaten by a much better team in the 16 final while we huffed and puffed all this year and showed very little form all year the writing was on the wall this spring that we could have a short summer
The county board have rubber stamped the management team earlier so id expect work to start very soon trying to plug the holes and cull any dead wood on the panel and unearth a few new lads

dubcat51

Lost in xtra time and you call that embarassed.go back and hide under your blanket.

dubcat51

A record never to be broken.waterford in 08 took 45 minutes to score from play.now thats what I call embarassed.

gobo99

Motivator wrote: »

Kilkenny are finished lads, deal with it.

Beaten by a piss poor Wexford team and then humiliated by Waterford.

You know things are bad for Kilkenny when all of Waterford are laughing at you!

Go to bed, you're drunk.

Realt Dearg Sec

Motivator wrote: »

Kilkenny are finished lads, deal with it.

Beaten by a piss poor Wexford team and then humiliated by Waterford.

You know things are bad for Kilkenny when all of Waterford are laughing at you!

You know things are bad for Motivator when all of Waterford are apologising for you!

suirway

Predictions;
Senior champions O'Loughlins
Intermediate - Ballyragget
Junior - Emeralds

kksaints

Motivator wrote: »

Kilkenny are finished lads, deal with it.

Beaten by a piss poor Wexford team and then humiliated by Waterford.

You know things are bad for Kilkenny when all of Waterford are laughing at you!

Then we look at the All-Ireland winners list and laugh at Waterford's "mighty" total of two wins and the length of time since their last one.

blackcard

suirway wrote: »

Predictions;
Senior champions O'Loughlins
Intermediate - Ballyragget
Junior - Emeralds

Dicksboro, Tullaroan, Emeralds