Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

droppingball

Cathal O Neill danesfort is also called in

Garyp88

Is there anyone that's not been called up I'm Sat waiting by the phone....

Village87

Should be few more from the Village after getting to a county final

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

Should be few more from the Village after getting to a county final

Who's in from the village?scanlon and maybe tadgh dwyer?

tbiggertycome

brookville wrote: »

Who's in from the village?scanlon and maybe tadgh dwyer?

Scanlon and Conor Browne are the 2 from the Village AFAIK
Buckley, Ollie Walsh, Evan Cody, Conor Doheny and Bill Sheehan to be called in from the Boro there may be 1 or 2 more but haven't heard of any yet.

brookville

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Scanlon and Conor Browne are the 2 from the Village AFAIK
Buckley, Ollie Walsh, Evan Cody, Conor Doheny and Bill Sheehan to be called in from the Boro there may be 1 or 2 more but haven't heard of any yet.

Maybe oisin gough could be worth a look

Village87

brookville wrote: »

Maybe oisin gough could be worth a look

Very impressed with Gough, Evan Cody needs to step it up a bit from what iv seen of him

PeterCasey

Village87 wrote: »

Very impressed with Gough, Evan Cody needs to step it up a bit from what iv seen of him

Was Gough injured last Sunday when they took him off , because I thought he was doing all right. I think Conner Doheny is ahead of Cody.

brookville

Anyone know who's in from the rower,I presume joe and pat lyng and leahy are probably in but eoin doyle ciarian ryan and tom murphy have had their moments for them.
The management have threw the net far and wide by all account's hopefully a few can make the step up

Village87

brookville wrote: »

Anyone know who's in from the rower,I presume joe and pat lyng and leahy are probably in but eoin doyle ciarian ryan and tom murphy have had their moments for them.
The management have threw the net far and wide by all account's hopefully a few can make the step up

Not sure. Pat Lyng probably not up to the standard. I was impressed with Kenny anytime I seen them in action. I think he was full forward

Noddy33

Village87 wrote: »

brookville wrote: »

Anyone know who's in from the rower,I presume joe and pat lyng and leahy are probably in but eoin doyle ciarian ryan and tom murphy have had their moments for them.
The management have threw the net far and wide by all account's hopefully a few can make the step up

Not sure. Pat Lyng probably not up to the standard. I was impressed with Kenny anytime I seen them in action. I think he was full forward

Nothing against the lad but Jj Kenny no where near the required standard and more often than not this year was only a sub for the Rower!!! I seriously think you have him confused with someone else

JJs Left Hand

I've been told Scanlon isn't in but no idea if that's true or not

There's nobody from The Village other than him worth looking at bar Dwyer at a push. They're ****e and it's a travesty they got to a county final.

BoroMan32

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

I've been told Scanlon isn't in but no idea if that's true or not

There's nobody from The Village other than him worth looking at bar Dwyer at a push. They're ****e and it's a travesty they got to a county final.

There's some rubbish spouted on this forum but that's up there. Idiot.

dobbs2210

BoroMan32 wrote: »

There's some rubbish spouted on this forum but that's up there. Idiot.

Here here... Absolute bitterness towards the Village shining through better than the lighthouse beacon below on Hook Head.

Hammered a highly, highly fancied Shamrocks side in semi-final.

JJs Left Hand

Lads they should've been beaten by 15 points in the final. Obviously I'm exaggerating for dramatic effect but they're a poor side. They were desperate for 45 minutes against Martins in the relegation semi final and a decent side would've beaten them that day. They won one game in the league. One. But because they hurled for 30 minutes against Shamrocks they're a good side? Come on.

Why would I be bitter towards the Village?

dobbs2210

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Lads they should've been beaten by 15 points in the final. Obviously I'm exaggerating for dramatic effect but they're a poor side. They were desperate for 45 minutes against Martins in the relegation semi final and a decent side would've beaten them that day. They won one game in the league. One. But because they hurled for 30 minutes against Shamrocks they're a good side? Come on.

Why would I be bitter towards the Village?

I don't know, you tell me. Well if the Village are desperate what's your view on Carrickshock and Ballyhale Shamrocks.

JJs Left Hand

Put it this way - the Boro in the county final were the first team in the last 3 years (ish) where I thought that's a good team.

Village87

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

I've been told Scanlon isn't in but no idea if that's true or not

There's nobody from The Village other than him worth looking at bar Dwyer at a push. They're ****e and it's a travesty they got to a county final.

There should be a few more lads called as we did get to a county final. I did think we were in trouble after the Danesfort match and during the Martins game that we could end up Intermediate.

The standard in senior is gone very low over last few years

Noddy33

brookville wrote: »

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Scanlon and Conor Browne are the 2 from the Village AFAIK
Buckley, Ollie Walsh, Evan Cody, Conor Doheny and Bill Sheehan to be called in from the Boro there may be 1 or 2 more but haven't heard of any yet.

Maybe oisin gough could be worth a look

tbiggertycome wrote: »

brookville wrote: »

Who's in from the village?scanlon and maybe tadgh dwyer?

Scanlon and Conor Browne are the 2 from the Village AFAIK
Buckley, Ollie Walsh, Evan Cody, Conor Doheny and Bill Sheehan to be called in from the Boro there may be 1 or 2 more but haven't heard of any yet.

I know there there nearly 60 lads in training at the moment so definitely will wait to see who involved come league time before casting a judgement. But do people seriously think some of the aforementioned and along with some of the other names discussed are really up to Senior Inter county hurling? 
I am not trying to be critical at all and merely just looking to see what are peoples genuine opinion. For instance Conor Doheny for most parts of the year couldnt make the under 21 team and I dont even think he was in the listed panel for the AI final in September and I know he got injured mid season to for a bit which didnt help. The likes of Bill Sheehan and Tadgh Dwyer couldnt even make the U21 panel. Have they really shown enough over the 6-8 weeks or so to justify a run with the senior? I am totally of the opinon that winning matched gives players confidence and generally players form thrive off this and I am not for one minute insinuating that if a player cant make County U21 panel then they should be forgotten about when it comes to senior ranks........we seen how many late blossomers we have had over the last few years!!
I have seen alot of club games this year and alot of the names mentioned in this forum from what I have seen would be completely out of their depth at inter county level as some of the Boro lads found out last weekend when they went up another level in standard against what I will say is an excellent Cuala team. I know every year we would be delighted if we can find two good additions to the panel and I think this year will follow similar suit. 
Im gonna put my neck on the line and put it out there my two bolters to make an impression this year on the panel for me will be John Donnelly and Cathal O'Neill with Richie Reid to show good capabilities as a good option on the half back line/midfield area!

Realt Dearg Sec

Noddy33 wrote: »

I know there there nearly 60 lads in training at the moment so definitely will wait to see who involved come league time before casting a judgement. But do people seriously think some of the aforementioned and along with some of the other names discussed are really up to Senior Inter county hurling? 
I am not trying to be critical at all and merely just looking to see what are peoples genuine opinion. For instance Conor Doheny for most parts of the year couldnt make the under 21 team and I dont even think he was in the listed panel for the AI final in September and I know he got injured mid season to for a bit which didnt help. The likes of Bill Sheehan and Tadgh Dwyer couldnt even make the U21 panel. Have they really shown enough over the 6-8 weeks or so to justify a run with the senior? I am totally of the opinon that winning matched gives players confidence and generally players form thrive off this and I am not for one minute insinuating that if a player cant make County U21 panel then they should be forgotten about when it comes to senior ranks........we seen how many late blossomers we have had over the last few years!!

I know what you mean but you've answered your own question here. They might being in 60 lads and most of them aren't going to be up to the task, but nobody has lost anything in the process by having a look. But if we get one Martin Comerford type of character out of all of that, one lad overlooked by school, minor and under 21 coaches who, given his chance, takes it with both hands, then all the time spent looking at all these lads to find that one player is worth it.

If all this stuff unearths even a single player who surprises us all and makes a difference come summer, then the process is vindicated in my opinion. Especially since most people seem to agree there are ongoing problems with the development squads and other aspects of our development system.

northern lad

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I know what you mean but you've answered your own question here. They might being in 60 lads and most of them aren't going to be up to the task, but nobody has lost anything in the process by having a look. But if we get one Martin Comerford type of character out of all of that, one lad overlooked by school, minor and under 21 coaches who, given his chance, takes it with both hands, then all the time spent looking at all these lads to find that one player is worth it.

If all this stuff unearths even a single player who surprises us all and makes a difference come summer, then the process is vindicated in my opinion. Especially since most people seem to agree there are ongoing problems with the development squads and other aspects of our development system.

Lads, it's very obvious this an extended panel of players for both Senior and U21. Fitness and conditioning being combined for both. There are players after been called in who wont even make the U21 team later on

brookville

northern lad wrote: »

Lads, it's very obvious this an extended panel of players for both Senior and U21. Fitness and conditioning being combined for both. There are players after been called in who wont even make the U21 team later on

I was thinking the same but it's no harm to give everyone a look, lads can't have complaints about this lad or that lad not being called in

Noddy33

northern lad wrote: »

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I know what you mean but you've answered your own question here. They might being in 60 lads and most of them aren't going to be up to the task, but nobody has lost anything in the process by having a look. But if we get one Martin Comerford type of character out of all of that, one lad overlooked by school, minor and under 21 coaches who, given his chance, takes it with both hands, then all the time spent looking at all these lads to find that one player is worth it.

If all this stuff unearths even a single player who surprises us all and makes a difference come summer, then the process is vindicated in my opinion. Especially since most people seem to agree there are ongoing problems with the development squads and other aspects of our development system.

Lads, it's very obvious this an extended panel of players for both Senior and U21. Fitness and conditioning being combined for both. There are players after been called in who wont even make the U21 team later on

Im well aware that its very much an extended panel and hence why I have referred to it previously as a 'Provisional Panel'. However  I wouldnt call it an joint affair with the U21 as I know DJ Carey has nothing to do with these sessions  so far and majority of the players that have been brought in are overage for U21 level.
My original point basically leads to that from what I seen in club games in 2017 worryingly there is no real standout club players thats not already involved which you think could make a real addition to the options at senior level. IMO opinion standard at club level in KK has dropped quite considerably from recent years just hope this doesnt correlate with a dry success spell at minor,U21 and County level!
I have seen people people here suggest that we should fast track Adrian Mullen into the set up. My own thoughts would be he not ready yet and should stay solely with the U21 for atleast a year but interestingly I believe he has returned to St. Kierans to repeat the leaving Cert. If this is the case I hope for his own sake he is left to concentrate on his studies and he will have plenty of years down the line to play in the black and amber

tbiggertycome

Noddy33 wrote: »

Im well aware that its very much an extended panel and hence why I have referred to it previously as a 'Provisional Panel'. However  I wouldnt call it an joint affair with the U21 as I know DJ Carey has nothing to do with these sessions  so far and majority of the players that have been brought in are overage for U21 level.
My original point basically leads to that from what I seen in club games in 2017 worryingly there is no real standout club players thats not already involved which you think could make a real addition to the options at senior level. IMO opinion standard at club level in KK has dropped quite considerably from recent years just hope this doesnt correlate with a dry success spell at minor,U21 and County level!
I have seen people people here suggest that we should fast track Adrian Mullen into the set up. My own thoughts would be he not ready yet and should stay solely with the U21 for atleast a year but interestingly I believe he has returned to St. Kierans to repeat the leaving Cert. If this is the case I hope for his own sake he is left to concentrate on his studies and he will have plenty of years down the line to play in the black and amber

I agree with most of what your saying but who is the last lad to really impress in the county championship and went on to become a top starter or even a regular sub. I honestly can't think of any. I can think of lads who were brought in after decent club performances and went on to make a place for themselves on the team but I wouldn't have said they were standout with their club. Shane Prendergast springs to mind but you could hardly say he was outstanding the year before he was brought in, he was certainly very good but the county wasn't abuzz talking about him. To be honest that type of buzz and breakout performances are made by young lads coming through and I think that has always been the way maybe I'm wrong and maybe you'll come up with a load of examples that I can't think of. I know Gorta and Derek Lyng came through and became unbelievable players but I don't remember them being amazing at club level before that and being hearlded as the new men to become stars for the county. I think most players who make it after U21 will have a very good club year and maybe a few lads in his own club will believe in him but few beyond that will get excited by his presence in the county set up.

I'm not going to comment on most of the players mentioned above at the moment as I have only seen bits and pieces of them. I will talk about 2 though, both Boro men. I've done video analysis for the club for the last two years and have watched these lads over and over and in slow motion and collated their stats so I think I'm fairly well placed to judge them.
Bill Sheehan- I think he is definitely worth a look to be honest. I'd say he's a bit young yet (20)and his size is seen as a negative in a lot of quarters. What he lacks in size he more than makes up for in speed, solid touch and is an accurate shooter. He sometimes doesn't take care of the ball when on the run but thats not often, he's well able for the physical stuff too. This was his first year starting for the Boro seniors and he has improved a huge amount from the start of the year. The one thing he has going for him is he's a tenacious tackler and never lets the defender out unchallenged a trait Cody will love. He was almost always in our top 3 hooks blocks and tacklers in every game. I think he is a guy that could possibly make it but it'll depend on his application. I'd be surprised to see him make the cut this year but it wouldn't suprise me in a year or two. However I would be shocked if he's not included in the U21 panel along with Oisin Gough and Tom Kenny.

Conor Doheny- He's actually one of the few I think could make the step up and handle it well. For the poster who said he struggled to get on the U21 team they couldn't be further from the truth. He had a very severe accident/injury and as the saying goes "he was lucky to come away from it with his life" (D'unbelievables voice). That happened the week after the Westmeath match and he didn't resume contact training until the week before the U21 AI final.
In the U21's first day out against Dublin he was savage and only for he got a slap and had to come off in the second half he would have pushed Billy Ryan for the man of the match award. Against Westmeath he again was very good but got a very nasty slap on his hand just before halftime and was replaced at the break. In a half where Kilkenny struggled against Westmeath he was the one who was breaking up most of their attacks. I know for a fact the U21 management were not too happy they'd lost a very big cog in their defence.
He was eased back into it for the club and he didn't really start to hurl back to his potential until the Co. final and he was the clubs best player on display against Cuala in my opinion. He was also played out of position out of necessity by the club for most of the year he's most naturally a right wing back but was played on the left wing, midfield, centre back but mainly right corner back for most of the Championship. He is a smart player and is rarely caught in the wrong place he wins ball he probably has no right to given his size. The only thing he could improve on is taking his time with deliveries, as he's well able to pick out great passes but sometimes just launches it.

delaney001

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I agree with most of what your saying but who is the last lad to really impress in the county championship and went on to become a top starter or even a regular sub. I honestly can't think of any. I can think of lads who were brought in after decent club performances and went on to make a place for themselves on the team but I wouldn't have said they were standout with their club. Shane Prendergast springs to mind but you could hardly say he was outstanding the year before he was brought in, he was certainly very good but the county wasn't abuzz talking about him. To be honest that type of buzz and breakout performances are made by young lads coming through and I think that has always been the way maybe I'm wrong and maybe you'll come up with a load of examples that I can't think of. I know Gorta and Derek Lyng came through and became unbelievable players but I don't remember them being amazing at club level before that and being hearlded as the new men to become stars for the county. I think most players who make it after U21 will have a very good club year and maybe a few lads in his own club will believe in him but few beyond that will get excited by his presence in the county set up.

I'm not going to comment on most of the players mentioned above at the moment as I have only seen bits and pieces of them. I will talk about 2 though, both Boro men. I've done video analysis for the club for the last two years and have watched these lads over and over and in slow motion and collated their stats so I think I'm fairly well placed to judge them.
Bill Sheehan- I think he is definitely worth a look to be honest. I'd say he's a bit young yet (20)and his size is seen as a negative in a lot of quarters. What he lacks in size he more than makes up for in speed, solid touch and is an accurate shooter. He sometimes doesn't take care of the ball when on the run but thats not often, he's well able for the physical stuff too. This was his first year starting for the Boro seniors and he has improved a huge amount from the start of the year. The one thing he has going for him is he's a tenacious tackler and never lets the defender out unchallenged a trait Cody will love. He was almost always in our top 3 hooks blocks and tacklers in every game. I think he is a guy that could possibly make it but it'll depend on his application. I'd be surprised to see him make the cut this year but it wouldn't suprise me in a year or two. However I would be shocked if he's not included in the U21 panel along with Oisin Gough and Tom Kenny.

Conor Doheny- He's actually one of the few I think could make the step up and handle it well. For the poster who said he struggled to get on the U21 team they couldn't be further from the truth. He had a very severe accident/injury and as the saying goes "he was lucky to come away from it with his life" (D'unbelievables voice). That happened the week after the Westmeath match and he didn't resume contact training until the week before the U21 AI final.
In the U21's first day out against Dublin he was savage and only for he got a slap and had to come off in the second half he would have pushed Billy Ryan for the man of the match award. Against Westmeath he again was very good but got a very nasty slap on his hand just before halftime and was replaced at the break. In a half where Kilkenny struggled against Westmeath he was the one who was breaking up most of their attacks. I know for a fact the U21 management were not too happy they'd lost a very big cog in their defence.
He was eased back into it for the club and he didn't really start to hurl back to his potential until the Co. final and he was the clubs best player on display against Cuala in my opinion. He was also played out of position out of necessity by the club for most of the year he's most naturally a right wing back but was played on the left wing, midfield, centre back but mainly right corner back for most of the Championship. He is a smart player and is rarely caught in the wrong place he wins ball he probably has no right to given his size. The only thing he could improve on is taking his time with deliveries, as he's well able to pick out great passes but sometimes just launches it.

Sorry to be a bit unrelated. But what is the average for hooks/blocks/clean catches in the boro's games. We have started recording this this year, and I am always interested to hear in the averages from other clubs.
our lads are always giving out that there isnt enough hooking and blocking, but I think there wont ever be that high a number.

brookville

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I agree with most of what your saying but who is the last lad to really impress in the county championship and went on to become a top starter or even a regular sub. I honestly can't think of any. I can think of lads who were brought in after decent club performances and went on to make a place for themselves on the team but I wouldn't have said they were standout with their club. Shane Prendergast springs to mind but you could hardly say he was outstanding the year before he was brought in, he was certainly very good but the county wasn't abuzz talking about him. To be honest that type of buzz and breakout performances are made by young lads coming through and I think that has always been the way maybe I'm wrong and maybe you'll come up with a load of examples that I can't think of. I know Gorta and Derek Lyng came through and became unbelievable players but I don't remember them being amazing at club level before that and being hearlded as the new men to become stars for the county. I think most players who make it after U21 will have a very good club year and maybe a few lads in his own club will believe in him but few beyond that will get excited by his presence in the county set up.

I'm not going to comment on most of the players mentioned above at the moment as I have only seen bits and pieces of them. I will talk about 2 though, both Boro men. I've done video analysis for the club for the last two years and have watched these lads over and over and in slow motion and collated their stats so I think I'm fairly well placed to judge them.
Bill Sheehan- I think he is definitely worth a look to be honest. I'd say he's a bit young yet (20)and his size is seen as a negative in a lot of quarters. What he lacks in size he more than makes up for in speed, solid touch and is an accurate shooter. He sometimes doesn't take care of the ball when on the run but thats not often, he's well able for the physical stuff too. This was his first year starting for the Boro seniors and he has improved a huge amount from the start of the year. The one thing he has going for him is he's a tenacious tackler and never lets the defender out unchallenged a trait Cody will love. He was almost always in our top 3 hooks blocks and tacklers in every game. I think he is a guy that could possibly make it but it'll depend on his application. I'd be surprised to see him make the cut this year but it wouldn't suprise me in a year or two. However I would be shocked if he's not included in the U21 panel along with Oisin Gough and Tom Kenny.

Conor Doheny- He's actually one of the few I think could make the step up and handle it well. For the poster who said he struggled to get on the U21 team they couldn't be further from the truth. He had a very severe accident/injury and as the saying goes "he was lucky to come away from it with his life" (D'unbelievables voice). That happened the week after the Westmeath match and he didn't resume contact training until the week before the U21 AI final.
In the U21's first day out against Dublin he was savage and only for he got a slap and had to come off in the second half he would have pushed Billy Ryan for the man of the match award. Against Westmeath he again was very good but got a very nasty slap on his hand just before halftime and was replaced at the break. In a half where Kilkenny struggled against Westmeath he was the one who was breaking up most of their attacks. I know for a fact the U21 management were not too happy they'd lost a very big cog in their defence.
He was eased back into it for the club and he didn't really start to hurl back to his potential until the Co. final and he was the clubs best player on display against Cuala in my opinion. He was also played out of position out of necessity by the club for most of the year he's most naturally a right wing back but was played on the left wing, midfield, centre back but mainly right corner back for most of the Championship. He is a smart player and is rarely caught in the wrong place he wins ball he probably has no right to given his size. The only thing he could improve on is taking his time with deliveries, as he's well able to pick out great passes but sometimes just launches it.

Are gough and sheehan U21 next year?I thought aidan nolan looks to have something as well.
I like the look of sheehan he could make it with senior coaching,He has great pace,oisin gough is another who could make it in time.
Doheny was a very tidy minor 2 years ago I'd definitely give him a chance,he was very unlucky this year with injury.
A lot of these lads will get a chance next year at u21

tbiggertycome

delaney001 wrote: »

Sorry to be a bit unrelated. But what is the average for hooks/blocks/clean catches in the boro's games. We have started recording this this year, and I am always interested to hear in the averages from other clubs.
our lads are always giving out that there isnt enough hooking and blocking, but I think there wont ever be that high a number.

We brought our average HBT's up from mid 50's to mid 80's this year. The problem with this metric is the tackles. What constitutes a tackle? I've been able to bring consistency, I've had two years doing the stats and now the last two years doing the video. When just doing stats the numbers would be much lower as when your doing it in real time you miss so much. I catch everything on the video. So things I term a tackle others may not or vice versa but the management understand what I class as what and even if they didn't, it doesn't really matter as long as whoever is doing it is as consistent as possible. Then if theirs a rise or fall in the number you know the performance was better or worse.
Personally I have 6 catagories for HBT. (rough averages and vary from game to game)
Hook (average 2)
Hook for a turnover (average 2)
Block (average 3)
Block for a turnover (average 4)
Tackle (average 64)
Tackle for a turnover (average 8)

Their all fairly self explanatory to be honest the only thing is what do I count as a tackle. There are a few things that have to happen for me to count it.
1. there has to be physical contact body or hurl
2. either the ball has to be dislodged (can be won straight back and often is)
3. or the player is forced to change direction of run or is held up from going forward.
If two of these are satisfied a player gets a tackle, obviously if the ball is knocked out and we win it, that's a Tackle for a turnover.

Hooks and blocks are too small a sample size personally to be able to tell if the team is working hard enough whereas once you decide a criteria for counting tackles these tell if the teams performance dropped, rose or maintained.

tbiggertycome

brookville wrote: »

Are gough and sheehan U21 next year?I thought aidan nolan looks to have something as well.
I like the look of sheehan he could make it with senior coaching,He has great pace,oisin gough is another who could make it in time.
Doheny was a very tidy minor 2 years ago I'd definitely give him a chance,he was very unlucky this year with injury.
A lot of these lads will get a chance next year at u21

Yep Gough and Sheehan are both U21 AFAIK. Aidan Nolan was on the U21's this year and came on against Down. He's definitely good and if he keeps the progress he's had in the last year he's definitely worth a look. He does need to tidy up a few things but he is very reliable and can be outstanding. Gough would be lethal if he worked on his running his gait is terrible (can definitely be fixed) and he could be so much faster if he worked on that. If he did he'd be very hard to stop has loads of talent and a lovely touch.

delaney001

tbiggertycome wrote: »

We brought our average HBT's up from mid 50's to mid 80's this year. The problem with this metric is the tackles. What constitutes a tackle? I've been able to bring consistency, I've had two years doing the stats and now the last two years doing the video. When just doing stats the numbers would be much lower as when your doing it in real time you miss so much. I catch everything on the video. So things I term a tackle others may not or vice versa but the management understand what I class as what and even if they didn't, it doesn't really matter as long as whoever is doing it is as consistent as possible. Then if theirs a rise or fall in the number you know the performance was better or worse.
Personally I have 6 catagories for HBT. (rough averages and vary from game to game)
Hook (average 2)
Hook for a turnover (average 2)
Block (average 3)
Block for a turnover (average 4)
Tackle (average 64)
Tackle for a turnover (average 8)

Their all fairly self explanatory to be honest the only thing is what do I count as a tackle. There are a few things that have to happen for me to count it.
1. there has to be physical contact body or hurl
2. either the ball has to be dislodged (can be won straight back and often is)
3. or the player is forced to change direction of run or is held up from going forward.
If two of these are satisfied a player gets a tackle, obviously if the ball is knocked out and we win it, that's a Tackle for a turnover.

Hooks and blocks are too small a sample size personally to be able to tell if the team is working hard enough whereas once you decide a criteria for counting tackles these tell if the teams performance dropped, rose or maintained.

First thanks for such an in depth answer. I thought you meant you 50 to 80 hooks and blocks!!! Including tackles is a good idea cause what your saying is very true. We could have 3 blocks 3 hooks this week. Then have 1 extra block next week, which then suggests that the team has increased work rate by 16% which is more than likely incorrect.
Saying that I wonder should hooks and blocks be weighted differently to tackles when assessing the numbers, as they are going to be Much less common than tackles. If you read 5 extra tackles this week, you probably wouldn't think anything of it. But if you read 5 extra blocks you would be thinking they must have really been on their game.

brookville

Any word on the minor management are they staying on?

greenspurs

tbiggertycome wrote: »

We brought our average HBT's up from mid 50's to mid 80's this year. The problem with this metric is the tackles. What constitutes a tackle? I've been able to bring consistency, I've had two years doing the stats and now the last two years doing the video. When just doing stats the numbers would be much lower as when your doing it in real time you miss so much. I catch everything on the video. So things I term a tackle others may not or vice versa but the management understand what I class as what and even if they didn't, it doesn't really matter as long as whoever is doing it is as consistent as possible. Then if theirs a rise or fall in the number you know the performance was better or worse.
Personally I have 6 catagories for HBT. (rough averages and vary from game to game)
Hook (average 2)
Hook for a turnover (average 2)
Block (average 3)
Block for a turnover (average 4)
Tackle (average 64)
Tackle for a turnover (average 8)

Their all fairly self explanatory to be honest the only thing is what do I count as a tackle. There are a few things that have to happen for me to count it.
1. there has to be physical contact body or hurl
2. either the ball has to be dislodged (can be won straight back and often is)
3. or the player is forced to change direction of run or is held up from going forward.
If two of these are satisfied a player gets a tackle, obviously if the ball is knocked out and we win it, that's a Tackle for a turnover.

Hooks and blocks are too small a sample size personally to be able to tell if the team is working hard enough whereas once you decide a criteria for counting tackles these tell if the teams performance dropped, rose or maintained.

WOW !!!
Sorry i dont know what club you are involved in, But are clubs really going this route now?
So american football-ish ....... :rolleyes:

jeff bingham

greenspurs wrote:

WOW !!! Sorry i dont know what club you are involved in, But are clubs really going this route now? So american football-ish .......

My own club does so I'd imagine most if not all senior and intermediate clubs are

tbiggertycome

greenspurs wrote: »

WOW !!!
Sorry i dont know what club you are involved in, But are clubs really going this route now?
So american football-ish ....... :rolleyes:

No most clubs aren't I would say almost all are doing basic stats clipboard and pen job but not the video analysis. I said if I'm doing it at all, I'll try and do it right. Ballyhale had a big fancy rig at their semi final videoing it that I would say is for video analysis. Well I'm assuming it was Ballyhale because I didn't see it for the final so it wasn't the village using it most likely.

Stats and video analysis are fine, they can show lads where their going wrong and what their doing right, do less of the former and more of the latter please. It doesn't win any tackle or any games. I would say it contributes only a fraction to any success and that success can be achieved without it.

dastardly00

greenspurs wrote: »

WOW !!!
Sorry i dont know what club you are involved in, But are clubs really going this route now?
So american football-ish ....... :rolleyes:

tbiggertycome wrote: »

No most clubs aren't I would say almost all are doing basic stats clipboard and pen job but not the video analysis. I said if I'm doing it at all, I'll try and do it right. Ballyhale had a big fancy rig at their semi final videoing it that I would say is for video analysis. Well I'm assuming it was Ballyhale because I didn't see it for the final so it wasn't the village using it most likely.

Stats and video analysis are fine, they can show lads where their going wrong and what their doing right do less of the former and more of the latter please. It doesn't win any tackle or any games. I would say it contributes only a fraction to any success and that success can be achieved without it.

@greenspurs
If stats analysis can provide some insight and help improve performance (even though it might be only a marginal gain), then sure why not!
The only negatives are if management spend too much time and focus on the stats, and it distracts them from more important things like skill work, fitness, tactics etc. But that is poor management rather the fault of the stats.
And also cost would be a factor. Using money for underage development is far more important that paying tbiggertycome some bloke to analyse matches
(I'm not insinuating that tbiggertycome charges a lot of money! )

tbiggertycome

dastardly00 wrote: »

@greenspurs
If stats analysis can provide some insight and help improve performance (even though it might be only a marginal gain), then sure why not!
The only negatives are if management spend too much time and focus on the stats, and it distracts them from more important things like skill work, fitness, tactics etc. But that is poor management rather the fault of the stats.
And also cost would be a factor. Using money for underage development is far more important that paying tbiggertycome some bloke to analyse matches
(I'm not insinuating that tbiggertycome charges a lot of money! )

I don't charge a penny I do it for my club and would have no interest in doing it for any other. I agree with everything else you said.

tbiggertycome

delaney001 wrote: »

First thanks for such an in depth answer. I thought you meant you 50 to 80 hooks and blocks!!! Including tackles is a good idea cause what your saying is very true. We could have 3 blocks 3 hooks this week. Then have 1 extra block next week, which then suggests that the team has increased work rate by 16% which is more than likely incorrect.
Saying that I wonder should hooks and blocks be weighted differently to tackles when assessing the numbers, as they are going to be Much less common than tackles. If you read 5 extra tackles this week, you probably wouldn't think anything of it. But if you read 5 extra blocks you would be thinking they must have really been on their game.

To be honest we don't weight the hooks, blocks or tackles differently while i have them broken down in that way, the management just give the players the headline figure and we very much use it as our work rate metric. So we want to know if the team was working as hard this week as they were last week etc. Lots of stats don't tell very much to be honest, like puckout stats which team won the most puckouts. Did they win more of their own or the oppositions puckouts etc etc. So tracking this doesn't really tell you a whole lot and I can find very little correlation between winning puckouts and the outcome of the match. However there is a massive correlation between the number of hooks, blocks and tackles and the outcome of a match. The higher the figure the more likely you are to come out on top.

northern lad

Any word on DJ's management team ?

dobbs2210

northern lad wrote: »

Any word on DJ's management team ?

Heard a rumour a while back that Richie Power (jnr) & Nigel Skehan are selectors. Could be more involved.

JJs Left Hand

So we're in the 2nd weekend in November and the U14 championship finally ends tomorrow when the B final takes place between Galmoy/Windgap and Glenmore. I assumed the reason this has dragged is because of the whole Callan thing however having looked a bit deeper I've found that the U14 is an absolute mess and makes me wonder what the county board are at.

In this years championship SIX teams competed in Roinn A. SIX.
21 teams competed in Roinn B.
9 teams competed in Roinn C including a B team from The Village.

How do we have an A championship with 6 teams and a B championship with 21???????????

U16 is a bit better with 11/16/11 respectively with the 3 city teams with B teams in Roinn C. Both age groups have 35 individual clubs.

As an aside does anyone know how Galmoy and Windgap ended up together? Hardly neighbours. Logistics for training must be a nightmare. Fair play to all involved.

citykat

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

So we're in the 2nd weekend in November and the U14 championship finally ends tomorrow when the B final takes place between Galmoy/Windgap and Glenmore. I assumed the reason this has dragged is because of the whole Callan thing however having looked a bit deeper I've found that the U14 is an absolute mess and makes me wonder what the county board are at.

In this years championship SIX teams competed in Roinn A. SIX.
21 teams competed in Roinn B.
9 teams competed in Roinn C including a B team from The Village.

How do we have an A championship with 6 teams and a B championship with 21???????????

U16 is a bit better with 11/16/11 respectively with the 3 city teams with B teams in Roinn C. Both age groups have 35 individual clubs.

As an aside does anyone know how Galmoy and Windgap ended up together? Hardly neighbours. Logistics for training must be a nightmare. Fair play to all involved.

The U14 championship was a farce this year. Some roinn A clubs ran scared from a strong Boro team and elected to try their luck in Roinn B. Fair dues to the other city clubs, Gowran, Thomastown and Mooncoin for staying the course.
Don't know how Galmoy/Windgap hooked up. They're going to piss the roinn B final.

ttowncat

There really needs to be some sort of 'Country Cup' Championship at underage from around U12 up to minor, it works well at primary schools level. If we are worried about the drop off from minor to 21/senior then we should also be worried about drop offs from U14-U18, as in the demoralising hammerings dished out and no chance of silverware that come country clubs trying to operate in Roinn A are experiencing. The City Clubs are always going to be strong, it's not their fault with the numbers they can pull as well as other reasons across modern Ireland such as smaller families etc. In my own opinion, the current U15 and U14 quality in the county is at a very low and worrying level. The country teams still have the same strong spine of players down the middle but overall the standard on the wings and corners is definitely not what we've come to expect. Comparing it to my own days underage 15 years ago I would say that most of the current country teams operating at Roinn A would have been Roinn B average 15ish years ago. At U14 and U16 it's the Boro that are miles ahead and O'Loughlins at minor, and fair play to them, but other teams should def be closer.

dobbs2210

ttowncat wrote: »

There really needs to be some sort of 'Country Cup' Championship at underage from around U12 up to minor, it works well at primary schools level. If we are worried about the drop off from minor to 21/senior then we should also be worried about drop offs from U14-U18, as in the demoralising hammerings dished out and no chance of silverware that come country clubs trying to operate in Roinn A are experiencing. The City Clubs are always going to be strong, it's not their fault with the numbers they can pull as well as other reasons across modern Ireland such as smaller families etc. In my own opinion, the current U15 and U14 quality in the county is at a very low and worrying level. The country teams still have the same strong spine of players down the middle but overall the standard on the wings and corners is definitely not what we've come to expect. Comparing it to my own days underage 15 years ago I would say that most of the current country teams operating at Roinn A would have been Roinn B average 15ish years ago. At U14 and U16 it's the Boro that are miles ahead and O'Loughlins at minor, and fair play to them, but other teams should def be closer.

Dicksboro were knocked out at U16 qtr final stage in Roinn A this year. They didn't even qualify for the semi-final. O'Loughlin Gaels won u16 beating James Stephens with an injury time goal to win by one point.

ttowncat

Who knocked the Boro out at that stage? To be more specific it's the U15 and U14 age that boro are miles ahead. O'louglins obviously are on top at minor and some of that team I think were the very strong U16s in 2016 season who I presume won it out?

Anyway my point is that if it's not one city team at a high level of dominance it's another (i am aware that Ballyhale won the minor 2016 but surely this is the exception and not the norm). An added country cup competition/championship to the regular Roinn A league and Championship would help with keeping lads into the game and club.

citykat

ttowncat wrote: »

Who knocked the Boro out at that stage? To be more specific it's the U15 and U14 age that boro are miles ahead. O'louglins obviously are on top at minor and some of that team I think were the very strong U16s in 2016 season who I presume won it out?

Anyway my point is that if it's not one city team at a high level of dominance it's another (i am aware that Ballyhale won the minor 2016 but surely this is the exception and not the norm). An added country cup competition/championship to the regular Roinn A league and Championship would help with keeping lads into the game and club.

When are these other competitions going to be played? The roinn b is finishing this weekend, practically mid November.
Amalgamation is the only way to go for struggling rural clubs. But, if you amalgamate, you play roinn A.
Village and O'Loughlins were very poor at U14 this year. Some Roinn b teams would've beaten them.

ttowncat

Roinn B U14 finishing late is due to exceptional circumstances, as i'm led to believe on this forum, such as games abandoned to managers invading the pitch etc. Roinn A U14 finished on 14th Oct only because the semi between Thomastown and Mooncoin went to two replays. The reward for Thomastown coming out of these battles was a 27 point hammering from Boro in the final.

Surely our underage club teams deserve more than 5 league games (max 6) and then a knockout championship game or two after a long summer break- I recognise there's a range of difficulties with competitive matches during the summer such as exams, family holidays, Gaeltacht etc.

With the new U13/15/17 ages coming it there is definitely scope for the addition of fixtures in some sort of capacity, whether it be a country cup for only one or two of the age groups such as U15 and U17 (U14 have their Feile to look forward to), or a shield (personally I hate the word 'shield' as it is Tommy-Murphy-esque). The 3 city teams could even play out their own premierleague style home and away whilst this is going on -they could even invite strong large towns from outside the county for this to get proper competitive matches (like they do with Naas currently)... I'm sure KK's city teams don't see benefit of dishing out hammerings on a regular basis. THESE ARE JUST BRAINSTORMING IDEAS


BTW- the answers to
1)Dobbs2210-> "Dicksboro were knocked out at U16 qtr final stage in Roinn A this year. They didn't even qualify for the semi-final. O'Loughlin Gaels won u16 beating James Stephens with an injury time goal to win by one point"
2)ttowncat->"Who knocked the Boro out at that stage? To be more specific it's the U15 and U14 age that boro are miles ahead. O'louglins obviously are on top at minor and some of that team I think were the very strong U16s in 2016 season who I presume won it out?"

.... is that O'loughlins knocked them out at 1/4 final stage; and (2) in U16 2016 that very strong U16 O'Loughlins team lost the final to...Dicksboro

Anyhow, before an argument breaks out, I am not anti City teams, fair play to them for making the most of their resources and playing population. Look at it from the All Ireland football where Dublin's playing population and resources have reached unprecedented high levels and what it must be like to be from a county like Meath, kildare, or any team that would fancy themselves as competing up around Division 1 or2 (apart from Kerry and Mayo) What is going through guys heads to commit to competing against that? What are counties to do? breed like rabbits? get sponsored by Emirates? Amalgamate?

jeff bingham

Windgap and Galmoy joined because they were both struggling to field teams at underage. I think they take turns for home games. My cousin played underage for a couple of years with them until minor he said training was almost nonexistent for the lads from 15-17 until they were ready to train with the adults. No fault of the trainers but they could have training and then only have 5 or 6 lads at it.
In fairness they are very competitive at Roinn B level since joining up

blackcard

Kildare have a population of 230k, Meath 180 k. Mayo have only 130k. Kildare and Meath should be performing better.
Your general point about rural clubs competing with the city teams at underage level does hold however. You have 13 year olds marking big 16 year olds and being trounced by 30-40 points which is demoralizing and good for neither team. Fair play to the mentors of the city teams as a lot of good work is being carried out by them. Instead of the current method of the city teams having a B team, could you have a random draw so that in theory you have two equal teams? You would not have a Village A team and B team but say the Village Vikings against the Village Lions. At u17 or u19 level, you could revert to the current system. I think you would have much more competitive fare. You don't learn anything if you are trouncing another team.

davidx40

The callan thing u14 , what was the punishment giving out to trainer and club ,

paulie gaultieri

FT in wexford park
Callan 2.11-1.17 Fethard

ttowncat

blackcard wrote: »

Instead of the current method of the city teams having a B team, could you have a random draw so that in theory you have two equal teams? You would not have a Village A team and B team but say the Village Vikings against the Village Lions. At u17 or u19 level, you could revert to the current system. I think you would have much more competitive fare. You don't learn anything if you are trouncing another team.

It's a good idea but i couldn't see the the city clubs going for it. Between city clubs watching each other as to how fairly and evenly they pick the teams, as well as parents within a club watching what team their darling is picked on i.e. the perceived stronger or weaker team, or who has the better mentors, or little jimmys friends are on the other team. If the country teams start winning games and championships then the city clubs wouldn't be long getting up in arms.