Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

babyjesus14

Powerhouse wrote: »

He's offering an opinion. The question of what "makes sense" is purely subjective. Surely the lack of validity of an opinion is demonstrated only by taking it on and pointing out where his comments lack sense. Is that not what a discussion board is about?

It might be worth "taking it on" if he was capable of calm and reasoned analysis but when he starts ranting and questioning the commitment of players who have been competing and succeeding at the elite level in sport he's better off ignored!

babyjesus14

Powerhouse wrote: »

Interesting take on this from one of Ireland's leading hurling writers.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/comment-codys-time-as-top-cat-has-come-to-an-end-the-legendary-manager-should-be-moved-to-a-director-role-36540340.html

I assume you are being sarcastic? This is not the first time this individual has written an article looking for attention, wrote a personally quite insulting article on the Mayo football management team after the drawn All Ireland semi against Kerry last year and then was made look like a complete fool when they won the replay easily five days later.

I notice in his article he doesn't suggest any alternatives, i wonder why? I would guess because he actually doesn't have any.

Powerhouse

danganabu wrote: »

I have never denied that KK have regressed, its not exactly rocket science now is it :rolleyes: and I am not from KK so your claim that my thinking is ultra conservative is a little wide of the mark.

Rocket science maybe not, but confusing enough for some it seems. I don't get your suggestion that because your not from Kilkenny you cannot be ultra-conservative in your thinking. You remind me of a guy that would still nod and wink whenever Clare won a significant game even as later as 2006 as if the team of a decade earlier was still there waiting to reveal itself.

danganabu

Powerhouse wrote: »

I don't think this is an obvious outcome at all. Kilkenny's first game is away to Cork who had a patchy enough Munster League campaign so might not hit the ground running. Kilkenny, by contrast, have two tough dogged matches behind them recently which will help.

Then they are at home to Clare which is winnable. They might well have four points after two games. They also have Wexford at home and based on yesterday would have a huge chance of winning that. They also do not have to play Galway as they are in the lower division.

Kilkenny, at this point, are as likely to be the play-offs as in relegation contention.

Powerhouse wrote: »

Rocket science maybe not, but confusing enough for some it seems.

Amazing the way you have changed your mind completely in a week! You just love contradicting people and looking for an argument, I was a bigger fool for taking the bait.

Dionysis

I understand people on here not wanting to be seen to take a shot at the kk side but we h ave to face reality. The kk side that Cody will have to name in the championship this year will most likely be the weakest side since 1995/ 1989/1990. And may even be weaker than them. Tipp, Galway, Waterford, Cork, Wexford and Clare have all beaten us handy over the past 12 months and you wouldn’t automatically say we will beat them if we meet them this year. That puts us 7th in the rankings. An unbelievable fall from grace. And with that we have lads who have all Ireland medals struggling to make the first team. You cannot tell me that such a situation is acceptable for them.

We have a couple of youngsters with high ability and others who will never make it. Calling out a lack of the basics at inter county level is not a disservice to the player, it’s a disservice to the county to leave him there. Others are too soft and Saturday night showed that.
Note, that a lot of 5hese young lads played most of the younger Waterford lads in 2013 and 2014 at minor and have since been left far behind them.
We were well beaten by Wexford in league, championship and Walsh cup over the past 12months, and wexford showed far more bottle.
Our U-21s have regressed greatly since winning minor in 2014.

Unlike others I don’t blame Cody, he was not over these teams and I’ll say again, he’s been fcuksd over with the standard of hurler being handed over to him. The papers are wrong it’s underage mgmt are the issue.
I called that he get the youngsters in early and drive them, and that’s what’s he’s doing so I can’t say a thing against him now.
I’ll predict that kk will be in the game against tip but will be physically mauled by Clare, Waterford and probably Wexford, why, cos tip like cork will let us hurl, but the others are more physical and will tear into us, Tripp and cork make us look better than we are.
We have a decent amount of skill but badly lack - bottle, hunger, aggression, determination, drive.... even if not physically up to it at this stage the yo7nger lDs don’t seem to have 5hese qualities.

There is supposed to be a bar, to which all those wanting to play for kk should reach, we seem to be lowering that bar as someone else mentioned.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

I understand people on here not wanting to be seen to take a shot at the kk side but we h ave to face reality. The kk side that Cody will have to name in the championship this year will most likely be the weakest side since 1995/ 1989/1990. And may even be weaker than them. Tipp, Galway, Waterford, Cork, Wexford and Clare have all beaten us handy over the past 12 months and you wouldn’t automatically say we will beat them if we meet them this year. That puts us 7th in the rankings. An unbelievable fall from grace. And with that we have lads who have all Ireland medals struggling to make the first team. You cannot tell me that such a situation is acceptable for them.

We have a couple of youngsters with high ability and others who will never make it. Calling out a lack of the basics at inter county level is not a disservice to the player, it’s a disservice to the county to leave him there. Others are too soft and Saturday night showed that.
Note, that a lot of 5hese young lads played most of the younger Waterford lads in 2013 and 2014 at minor and have since been left far behind them.
We were well beaten by Wexford in league, championship and Walsh cup over the past 12months, and wexford showed far more bottle.
Our U-21s have regressed greatly since winning minor in 2014.

Unlike others I don’t blame Cody, he was not over these teams and I’ll say again, he’s been fcuksd over with the standard of hurler being handed over to him. The papers are wrong it’s underage mgmt are the issue.
I called that he get the youngsters in early and drive them, and that’s what’s he’s doing so I can’t say a thing against him now.
I’ll predict that kk will be in the game against tip but will be physically mauled by Clare, Waterford and probably Wexford, why, cos tip like cork will let us hurl, but the others are more physical and will tear into us, Tripp and cork make us look better than we are.
We have a decent amount of skill but badly lack - bottle, hunger, aggression, determination, drive.... even if not physically up to it at this stage the yo7nger lDs don’t seem to have 5hese qualities.

If you are not physically up to it as you put it, I think it's almost impossible to show those qualities and realistically they fell from 3rd in 2016 to 6th or 7th in 2017, dissapointing but not exactly an astonishing fall.

I think where the ball was dropped was the physical development between minor and under 21 over this decade, I thought even Westmeath were a more physical under 21 team than Kilkenny last year.

babyjesus14

Topcat32 wrote: »

If you are not physically up to it as you put it, I think it's almost impossible to show those qualities and realistically they fell from 3rd in 2016 to 6th or 7th in 2017, dissapointing but not exactly an astonishing fall.

I think where the ball was dropped was the physical development between minor and under 21 over this decade, I thought even Westmeath were a more physical under 21 team than Kilkenny last year.

Out of curiosity who are you placing ahead of us in '16? Considering we beat Waterford in the semi final and Galway Leinster final.

Topcat32

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Out of curiosity who are you placing ahead of us in '16? Considering we beat Waterford in the semi final and Galway Leinster final.

I think Galway reached a level in the Semi final that we didn't get to that year, in terms of consistency I take your point that Kilkenny were the second best team of the year in 2016.

Powerhouse

danganabu wrote: »

Amazing the way you have changed your mind completely in a week! You just love contradicting people and looking for an argument, I was a bigger fool for taking the bait.

Assuming you are an adult isn't it sad to have to search through previous posts to attempt to find an inconsistency to land a blow on an anonymous discussion board. Sadder still when you fail to recognise it for what it was.

There are two simple utterly compatible views espoused by me. 1) Kilkenny are not necessarily fourth in the rankings - it is at the very least arguable, on the basis of actual competitive results over the past nine months, that Cork and Wexford are ahead of them also and 2) there is nothing inevitable about Kilkenny being in a League relegation play-off. Wexford, who struggled to beat Kilkenny last week, beat Waterford more comfortably yesterday. Clare looked middling. Tipperary seem to need their absolute full team to be competitive. Kilkenny have at least a 50-50 chance against all those teams. That does not mean that their achievements in 2017 change and they deserve to be ranked above teams which clearly did better than them. The former was a different discussion altogether.

I know you are desperate (God knows why) to score points but there is no inconsistency in my views. I happily change my views when the evidence in front of me changes - you seem not so inclined - but I haven't done so in the last week anyway.

P.S. Funny to look at my profile and see the visitors to my profile page. Safe to say yourself and poor ould Charlie69 are having a meltdown. All fine too unless of course you are adults and should have more perspective towards internet chat. When you are reduced to researching people in this environment rather than just taking the benefit of anonymity to shoot the breeze without fear of rancour it is being taken far too seriously. Not everyone will have the same view of the world. Get over it.

catseye2

babyjesus14 wrote: »

I assume you are being sarcastic? This is not the first time this individual has written an article looking for attention, wrote a personally quite insulting article on the Mayo football management team after the drawn All Ireland semi against Kerry last year and then was made look like a complete fool when they won the replay easily five days later.

I notice in his article he doesn't suggest any alternatives, i wonder why? I would guess because he actually doesn't have any.

Much as I was encouraged by the display and hunger on saturday night shown by the young cats, we need to be a bit more open to alternative views.
I read this article and didnt find anything insulting in it. Just because he doesnt suggest any alternatives, doesnt mean there isnt a problem. This individual was brought up on kilkenny hurling and does show respect to the legend that is cody. He just has a view that it is time to let someone new run the team.
A good 2 points on sunday is the best answer to that

Topcat32

catseye2 wrote: »

Much as I was encouraged by the display and hunger on saturday night shown by the young cats, we need to be a bit more open to alternative views.
I read this article and didnt find anything insulting in it. Just because he doesnt suggest any alternatives, doesnt mean there isnt a problem. This individual was brought up on kilkenny hurling and does show respect to the legend that is cody. He just has a view that it is time to let someone new run the team.
A good 2 points on sunday is the best answer to that

I think he has total respect for Cody and Kilkenny hurling and I didn't find anything insulting but I just didn't see any actual argument for why Cody isn't the best person to be manager, he gave the example of Kerry footballers but as I understand it O Dwyer had tried to keep on going using the players who had brought him success, this isnt the case with the current Kilkenny team.

babyjesus14

catseye2 wrote: »

Much as I was encouraged by the display and hunger on saturday night shown by the young cats, we need to be a bit more open to alternative views.
I read this article and didnt find anything insulting in it. Just because he doesnt suggest any alternatives, doesnt mean there isnt a problem. This individual was brought up on kilkenny hurling and does show respect to the legend that is cody. He just has a view that it is time to let someone new run the team.
A good 2 points on sunday is the best answer to that

Well if this individual was brought up on Kilkenny hurling as you suggest he would know that Kilkenny averaged less than 2.5 All Irelands a decade before Brian Cody took over, he then preceded to win 11 All Irelands in his first 17 years in charge. He goes two years without winning one and he should be sacked.... and that's your idea of "showing respect"!

Topcat32

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Well if this individual was brought up on Kilkenny hurling as you suggest he would know that Kilkenny averaged less than 2.5 All Irelands a decade before Brian Cody took over, he then preceded to win 11 All Irelands in his first 17 years in charge. He goes two years without winning one and he should be sacked.... and that's your idea of "showing respect"!

Well his father is from Kilkenny and he has written some excellent pieces describing how much joy his father who was very sick at the time took from seeing Kilkenny finally beat Tipp in the championship, he has always written very favourably about Kilkenny, I dont agree with his article but that doesnt mean he has no respect for Brian Cody, far from it I think.

babyjesus14

Topcat32 wrote: »

Well his father is from Kilkenny and he has written some excellent pieces describing how much joy his father who was very sick at the time took from seeing Kilkenny finally beat Tipp in the championship, he has always written very favourably about Kilkenny, I dont agree with his article but that doesnt mean he has no respect for Brian Cody, far from it I think.

Do you not think that suggesting that someone who has been so successful should be sacked because he hasn't won the All Ireland for two years is not being disrespectful? If he had a coherent argument as to why he doesn't think Cody is the best man for the job and suggesting an alternative i might give the article some credence( of what relevance is Mick O'Dwyer) but it just reeks of ill thought out nonsensical attention seeking.

Powerhouse

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Well if this individual was brought up on Kilkenny hurling as you suggest he would know that Kilkenny averaged less than 2.5 All Irelands a decade before Brian Cody took over, he then preceded to win 11 All Irelands in his first 17 years in charge. He goes two years without winning one and he should be sacked.... and that's your idea of "showing respect"!

How many years do you think would be acceptable for Cody to go without winning an All-Ireland before his position came under question? Say another six years passed and Cody was 70 years old and Kilkenny eight years without an All-Ireland? That's not impossible. Time goes quickly. I'm not for a moment implying that he should go just interested in how you mention a timeframe at all.

I think the fact that Cody in in the job nearly 20 years and there are signs that it might end badly for him in the context of the incredible success he had influences Sweeney's thinking. Taking the example of O'Dwyer in Kerry, he was manager for just 15 years and got the road within three years of his last All Ireland. Now unlike O'Dwyer Cody has a different championship system which could well see Kilkenny back in the last four if things fall right for them without necessarily winning anything. In O'Dwyer's time they were gone by July of they lost to Cork and it didn't matter than Cork were the all-Ireland champions in his last year so performance looked worse than it might with Kilkenny.

But the question of Cody's future will arise and all the more so if people think a major rebuilding job is to be done over several years on limited resources. At what stage will it be "respectful" to raise the matter?

Powerhouse

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Do you not think that suggesting that someone who has been so successful should be sacked because he hasn't won the All Ireland for two years is not being disrespectful? If he had a coherent argument as to why he doesn't think Cody is the best man for the job and suggesting an alternative i might give the article some credence( of what relevance is Mick O'Dwyer) but it just reeks of ill thought out nonsensical attention seeking.

Seriously.............can you not see any comparison?

Topcat32

Powerhouse wrote: »

Seriously.............can you not see any comparison?

And can you not in turn see that Cody is not continuing to pick the bulk of the team that brought him success, by choice and otherwise so there is also quite significant differences.

Powerhouse

Topcat32 wrote: »

And can you not in turn see that Cody is not continuing to pick the bulk of the team that brought him success, by choice and otherwise so there is also quite significant differences.

I do see that. I just don't see the relevance of the point as Sweeney did not reference this. It's a difference between them but in the context of the possibility of a manager staying too long to the point where an obvious successor is not identified and a generation of possibilities passed over I don't think it is a 'significant' difference as you put it. A difference, just not significant in the debate about Cody's future. You are arguing about the nature of the decline not that the decline is not happening.

greenspurs

Maybe we need a new thread for bitching and moaning and winding people up !! Fcuk sake give it a rest ! It's annoying to have to scroll down past all the self righteous fans that don't like to be contradicted !!

Realt Dearg Sec

Powerhouse wrote: »

a generation of possibilities passed over .

But the article claims that there is no generation of possibilities. He says, in fact, that the quality of player is simply not there anymore. It's not clear how this would be solved by Cody stepping down: there doesn't seem, in fact, to be any concrete criticism of anything Cody is actually doing as manager now that may be contributing to the decline of the team, which he identifies squarely with the lack of underage production.

Yet he suggests Cody step down. Not clear what that would solve (OK he suggests that Cody should be made the director of hurling for the county, but I'm not exactly sure why he would be the best man for that job, it is an entirely different role than managing a senior team). The logic of the article is, honestly, completely lost on me.

Powerhouse

greenspurs wrote: »

Maybe we need a new thread for bitching and moaning and winding people up !! Fcuk sake give it a rest ! It's annoying to have to scroll down past all the self righteous fans that don't like to be contradicted !!

To be honest I think the discussion has been more interesting here this evening than for a long time. There are some who want as Joe Brolly calls it 'Rose of Tralee' discussion and others who have background agendas and are far more interested in finding out who is who and firing PMs to each other in the undergrowth than any informed discussion.

But I think it's a shame that when discussion threatens to be some way adversarial (and I mean on-point and interesting adversarial rather than "last month you said this, today you said that" row for the sake of it adversarial) instead of "how good are Kieran's this year?" that the objectors wade in to try to quench it. I suppose it is a weakness of a single thread operation which caters for everyone that lurkers who come on just for info get irked by genuine argument.

Then again, I know far more people would favour what your view than mine. The Rose of Tralee is very popular!

Powerhouse

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

But the article claims that there is no generation of possibilities. He says, in fact, that the quality of player is simply not there anymore. It's not clear how this would be solved by Cody stepping down: there doesn't seem, in fact, to be any concrete criticism of anything Cody is actually doing as manager now that may be contributing to the decline of the team, which he identifies squarely with the lack of underage production.

Yet he suggests Cody step down. Not clear what that would solve (OK he suggests that Cody should be made the director of hurling for the county, but I'm not exactly sure why he would be the best man for that job, it is an entirely different role than managing a senior team). The logic of the article is, honestly, completely lost on me.

You make a fair point in that he does not provide a coherent argument that Cody is doing a bad job (other than pointing out the amount of games they have failed to win the last 12 months which would cause most managers to be looked at with a raised eyebrow). But such the qualitative argument is out there too, for example, it has often been suggested here that he struggles with game management and sweeper systems, both of which in an era when the quality of player is less might become more of an issue. But you are right Sweeney does not make that argument.

I think it is more an 'elephant in the room' point regarding the possible long-term nature of Kilkenny's recuperation and the advancing years and existing longevity of the manager.

Village87

Powerhouse wrote: »

I do see that. I just don't see the relevance of the point as Sweeney did not reference this. It's a difference between them but in the context of the possibility of a manager staying too long to the point where an obvious successor is not identified and a generation of possibilities passed over I don't think it is a 'significant' difference as you put it. A difference, just not significant in the debate about Cody's future. You are arguing about the nature of the decline not that the decline is not happening.

When Leinster got competitive 5/6 years ago things got harder for Cody. Kilkenny had the system sussed for years. Go hard at the league, play a few club matches, breeze through Leinster ,play another club match or 2, peak for 2 games the All Ireland semi final and Final, whilst having 3/4 of the best players to ever play the game. Everyone was happy.
Kilkenny have regressed and most other top counties have progressed and with Galway in Leinster the whole thing is very competitive. it could be said Kilkenny Conty Board & Management were sleeping at the wheel when other counties were making big strides, the management could be accused of being ignorant/arrogant or underestimating the changes to tactics to the modern game and were left behind, i do see Eamonn Sweeneys argument.

babyjesus14

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

But the article claims that there is no generation of possibilities. He says, in fact, that the quality of player is simply not there anymore. It's not clear how this would be solved by Cody stepping down: there doesn't seem, in fact, to be any concrete criticism of anything Cody is actually doing as manager now that may be contributing to the decline of the team, which he identifies squarely with the lack of underage production.

Yet he suggests Cody step down. Not clear what that would solve (OK he suggests that Cody should be made the director of hurling for the county, but I'm not exactly sure why he would be the best man for that job, it is an entirely different role than managing a senior team). The logic of the article is, honestly, completely lost on me.

Precisely he starts off pointing out Cody's competitive record as a reason he should be sacked and then towards the end of the article he points out Kilkenny's poor record at under 21 level when suggesting an alternate role for Cody. Does he not think there's a link there? How does getting rid of Cody solve that?

greenspurs

Powerhouse wrote: »

To be honest I think the discussion has been more interesting here this evening than for a long time. There are some who want as Joe Brolly calls it 'Rose of Tralee' discussion and others who have background agendas and are far more interested in finding out who is who and firing PMs to each other in the undergrowth than any informed discussion.

But I think it's a shame that when discussion threatens to be some way adversarial (and I mean on-point and interesting adversarial rather than "last month you said this, today you said that" row for the sake of it adversarial) instead of "how good are Kieran's this year?" that the objectors wade in to try to quench it. I suppose it is a weakness of a single thread operation which caters for everyone that lurkers who come on just for info get irked by genuine argument.

Then again, I know far more people would favour what your view than mine. The Rose of Tralee is very popular!

That's what I was trying to say ...

theblackspot

Just as well Sligo are not playing Kilkenny anytime soon.

greenspurs

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Precisely he starts off pointing out Cody's competitive record as a reason he should be sacked and then towards the end of the article he points out Kilkenny's poor record at under 21 level when suggesting an alternate role for Cody. Does he not think there's a link there? How does getting rid of Cody solve that?

You'd think he had the article ready for quite a while and was waiting for a chink in the armour to appear (ie losing some games) and then publish it.
As was mentioned , he started off saying Cody should resign , but then blames Minor and U21s not coming through ?!?
How can Cody be at fault for the other 2 grades not producing/having the talent to feed the Senior team? Or is he?
As was mentioned , I think the County board maybe did relax a bit while we had our glory years. Was there enough forward planning done as regards having the structures/management/players in place for when our "Golden Generation" hung up their hurleys?
We will have a few lean years, I think anyone that knows hurling can see that, but the Media and other counties will keep saying that Kilkenny will always have a chance/be there or thereabouts/serious outfit etc to enhance their own victories and the championship.

Ceist_Beag

Sweeney states in his article "No-one in Kilkenny has the authority to tell him when it's time to go. The manager is his own judge and jury. He may have earned that right.". He may have earned that right? If ever a manager earned that right it is Cody.
Absolutely journalists are entitled to ask the question, but as others have said, he hasn't really pointed out any reason for saying Cody should go other than he has been there for so long. He also hasn't put forward any alternative so it's hard to give him any credit in believing that Cody stepping aside would result in an improvement.
Rather than focus on O'Dwyer maybe he should have used the similarity with Alex Ferguson. When he stepped down things didn't exactly improve.
As others have said, the problem here imho is not Cody, it's just a natural thing that the era after the best team ever to play the sport would fall short of the high standards the county has been used to.

Powerhouse

Village87 wrote: »

When Leinster got competitive 5/6 years ago things got harder for Cody. Kilkenny had the system sussed for years. Go hard at the league, play a few club matches, breeze through Leinster ,play another club match or 2, peak for 2 games the All Ireland semi final and Final, whilst having 3/4 of the best players to ever play the game. Everyone was happy.
Kilkenny have regressed and most other top counties have progressed and with Galway in Leinster the whole thing is very competitive. it could be said Kilkenny Conty Board & Management were sleeping at the wheel when other counties were making big strides, the management could be accused of being ignorant/arrogant or underestimating the changes to tactics to the modern game and were left behind, i do see Eamonn Sweeneys argument.

I would agree that the system and weakness of Leinster in particular played into Kilkenny's hands during the Cody era albeit in a fairly unmeasurable way. But anyone who said 10 years ago that this was the case were told that if Kilkenny had real competition as was seen among the Munster counties they'd be even better. Never made any sense to me that and it is good to see acknowledged the few times Kilkenny had to peak during the year. I think funnily enough their wins between 2011 & '15 were more impressive than 2006-09 when competition was weaker.

I think there is an implied argument in what Sweeney says that the kind of revitalisation needed in Kilkenny could be better done with a fresh approach including a new manager. It will be interesting to assess Cody as a manager in the next few years with a less good team and see how he operates tactically. That will be the advantage of him staying on.

Powerhouse

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Rather than focus on O'Dwyer maybe he should have used the similarity with Alex Ferguson. When he stepped down things didn't exactly improve.

Why is O'Dwyer a less suitable similarity? Things didn't exactly improve when he stepped down either. Kerry didn't win an All-Ireland for eight years and got their biggest ever beating in a Munster Final the first year he was gone. Not sure why Ferguson is a more suitable comparison.

Powerhouse

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Sweeney states in his article "No-one in Kilkenny has the authority to tell him when it's time to go. The manager is his own judge and jury. He may have earned that right.". He may have earned that right? If ever a manager earned that right it is Cody.

I'll just preface this by saying that I'd hate Cody to step down. I think things will be far more interesting with him around and Kilkenny regressing. It will be a fascinating watch to see his management skills around that. But.....you say he has earned the right to be his own judge and jury. Just wondering if you think that is permanent right? For example if, in five years time, there has not been another All-Ireland final appearance would Cody still have that right?

Ceist_Beag

Powerhouse wrote: »

But.....you say he has earned the right to be his own judge and jury. Just wondering if you think that is permanent right? For example if, in five years time, there has not been another All-Ireland final appearance would Cody still have that right?

Absolutely, yes. I think Cody has earned that right - and I think most people will give him credit to know when the time is right as well. I certainly give him credit to be a better judge than the likes of Eamonn Sweeney that's for sure.

Powerhouse

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Absolutely, yes. I think Cody has earned that right - and I think most people will give him credit to know when the time is right as well. I certainly give him credit to be a better judge than the likes of Eamonn Sweeney that's for sure.

You cannot compare Cody versus Sweeney as a judge because Cody will be a central player in the decision. If Sweeney's judgement on the matter is flawed it doesn't matter as he will not have an input in the decision. If Cody's own judgement is flawed it will damage either his reputation or Kilkenny in general or maybe both. You can be assured that he will be given short shrift by supporters if success dries up in the coming years as the effects of all that eaten bread back the years wears off. Your idea that he can be manager in perpetuity if he chooses to be so irrespective of outcomes for the team will not stand the test of time. Removal of Cody will not solve problems but the crucial moment will come when his very presence itself is seen as a problem. The only managers who do not inhabit this space in the end are those who move on themselves and get ahead of the curve.

Ceist_Beag

So you ignore my statement that "I think most people will give him credit to know when the time is right as well" then?

Martin567

Powerhouse wrote: »

I would agree that the system and weakness of Leinster in particular played into Kilkenny's hands during the Cody era albeit in a fairly unmeasurable way. But anyone who said 10 years ago that this was the case were told that if Kilkenny had real competition as was seen among the Munster counties they'd be even better. Never made any sense to me that and it is good to see acknowledged the few times Kilkenny had to peak during the year. I think funnily enough their wins between 2011 & '15 were more impressive than 2006-09 when competition was weaker.

I was never convinced by the above argument at the time and I'm still not. Kilkenny were so good from 2006-09 that they made it easy for themselves.


If Kilkenny and let’s say Cork had swapped provinces around that time, would it have made any difference? I’m pretty certain that Kilkenny team would have handed out similar unmerciful hammerings to all of the Munster teams as they gave to Wexford, Offaly, etc, if they had been playing them every year.


Wexford were actually quite competitive back then outside Leinster. They were treated as a joke by some Munster people when complaining about how easy it was for Kilkenny. Yet no other team seemed to be able to defeat them so convincingly. I believe they had Championship victories over both Limerick and Tipperary during those years. Now I don’t know if that means that the strength of Leinster was underrated or Munster overrated but it comes back to the same thing anyway. Kilkenny were simply far ahead of everyone at that time.


Kilkenny’s wins between 2011 and 2015 were impressive for a different reason. Some of the players had a lot of miles in the legs and it took incredible mental strength and desire to keep winning more when it looked as though Tipperary were going to take over after 2010. But there’s no way the 2011-15 team could be seen as better than 2006-09 in any real comparison.


Kilkenny may have “had the system sussed” for a while but that was more to do with creating such a situation for themselves through the sheer performance and attitude of the team/squad rather than any structural advantage of the Championship.


Kilkenny were so good that it couldn’t possibly last forever. Now things are coming back to normal and there is a lot of rebuilding to be done. Historically, Kilkenny won about two All Irelands every decade and there is no reason for us to feel entitled that we should continue to dominate into the future as we did in recent times.

Powerhouse

[QUOTE=Martin567;105993641

But there’s no way the 2011-15 team could be seen as better than 2006-09 in any real comparison.

[/QUOTE]


Did I really suggest they were? You are overthinking what I wrote. I simply agreed with the original poster who suggested that they had an advantage through the few games they had against some weak opposition in those years. The later team has tougher campaigns and stronger opposition. Munster, with Cork on strike and Tipperary down was historically weak in those years. Limerick reached the 2007 final having won only three of seven matches in that championship! That's how mediocre they were. We saw a more realistic view of Kilkenny in the 2009 final when they had to go to the well to get past a rookie team.

Village87

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

So you ignore my statement that "I think most people will give him credit to know when the time is right as well" then?

We have the greatest hurling manager of all time over us when we are in decline, so we should let him see where it brings us for 3/4 years. Brian Cody won all around him with the greatest team ever with very few competitors for years. There was only ever one team to beat between 2004 -2011, Cork first, then Waterford followed by Tipperary for a few years. Things started to change around 2012, Galway began to get close to Kilkenny, Clare, Cork & Dublin started to improve and things became harder, as stated above they were big all irelands to win from 2012 onward. Then we started to lose the great players and now we are in decline/transition.

It will be very interesting to see how Brian Cody does over the next few years without the great players he had and the introduction of the new ultra competitive format. This will decide his legacy IMO

danganabu

Powerhouse wrote: »

We saw a more realistic view of Kilkenny in the 2009 final when they had to go to the well to get past a rookie team.

A rookie team?

tbiggertycome

There's a lot a stuff up here since the match and personally I think peoples reactions to the match and the current squad are way over the top. As most on here seem to agree Kilkenny have come back to the pack after such lofty heights. This is not a bad thing just natural however I think there is a little more to it than a lot of the one dimensional arguments being put forward and my tupence worth on Sweeneys article, as someone said it's like something written in advance. It's just spewed out and to someone with limited knowledge it seems clever and edgy but personally I think it's just bluster.

That is not to say I don't think Cody shouldn't be questioned or challenged and to be honest Sweeney can't know too much about Kilkenny if he thinks people in Kilkenny don't and won't challenge Cody. There have been many detractors and those with only begrudging praise for him in Kilkenny over the years. In serious hurling circles even in 08 & 09 the argument was been put forward by some, that sure Cody wouldn't have won anything in another era and that he was blessed with the players. Now I don't personally agree with this argument but I can see a grain of truth to it. Those same lads say he can't see whats happening on the pitch during a match and make a good timely call and that now he can't contrive a way to beat the sweeper system. These arguments I by and large agree with. Cody is an amazing manager and character in one way but he is in no way infallible in my opinion but I do think he deserves plenty of time if he wants it to help straighten the ship. I would like to see him rebuild the team and then hand it over to the next manager after we get back to our next All Ireland. The main reason being is what I think Cody's best at creating and drawing out character and leadership in players. I would love to see him change and coach our young lads on how to play but that doesn't seem to be his way.

The reason for our unprecedented success over the last almost two decades came down to a few things in my opinion.
A) The decision by the County board to start development squads with ex players leading the coaching back in 1995. The fact they committed to this and saw it through is an absolutely massive part in our success story
Through that process finding and encouraging players to keep at it and develop the correct skill sets. This led to a wider range and better trained bunch of players that Kilkenny had ever produced. The first full batch who'd been through it all started coming out of minor about 2000.
C) We unearthed some of the finest hurlers we've ever produced and they formed an unbelievable team. They were big strong and skilful and could all win there own ball.
D) We had Brian Cody over them to challenge and guide them through this success and somehow managed to keep them hungry.

What most people seem to conveniently forget is that Kilkenny had created the conditions for their own success it worked so well we had a great head start against other counties every year, until a few started to catch up. Now almost every county has a version or a system in place to make sure as much talent as is possible to hold on to, is brought through to county set ups. It took the quickest other counties 7 or 8 years to but in place a development squad type system and they didn't really start to challenge us until 2010-11. The challenge has got harder for Kilkenny now because other counties are now better than they've been they're not relying on fate to bring a strong team together every year. If you think about a graph most counties were bouncing along for decades all pretty much at the same level then a great team would come together for a county and they go above the others but soon come back to the pack. Kilkenny shot up above everyone else and stayed up there. Now other teams have started to rise to that level I still think they're below where Kilkenny were at their best but their close. Our current team has dropped below the main challengers but I expect us to bounce back up in the next year or so and then continue to bounce along with all the others and win a few here and there. Unless someone comes up with some other amazing innovation that can have as big an effect as the development squad had on hurling. Now there were other things happening too, to raise the standard. Dublin had huge investment. Development coaches going around to schools in most counties and other individual initiatives in different counties.

I think when we bounce back into the pack and that may well be this year. Despite what some have said on here there is some really good talent in the county but it needs to be given time and chances to get used to intercounty level. I can take some lads 2 or 3 years to get up to the level and get used to it. I'm in no way pessimistic and happily optimistic (& patient) about our future but then again I only saw Kilkenny win two AI's before I was 21 so for me this is like normal service being resumed. When you loose that many leaders from a dressing room you'll always struggle and having lads like we had also stops others becoming leaders. I think Buckley, Fogarty both Walshs and Eoin Murphy have even taken another step up this year on the evidence of that last match to being our new leaders.

Village87

One of the greatest games of all time

greenspurs

Powerhouse wrote: »

We saw a more realistic view of Kilkenny in the 2009 final when they had to go to the well to get past a rookie team.

A rookie team?
That Tipp team had Corbett, Cummins, Kelly , Callinan , Woodlock, Paddy Stapleton ,Declan Fanning and Brendan Maher, Noel and Shane McGrath.

They got 13 All star nominations in 2009 , (more than Kilkenny got) with 4 of them winning All Stars.
3 of that team had won All stars in 2008 ....
1 got one in 2007

danganabu

Village87 wrote: »

One of the greatest games of all time

I think it was the greatest I have ever seen, I constantly have this conversation with lads in the local and they immediately spout about 2010, I understand the thinking as Tipp actually won, but for me, despite the result, the quality of hurling in 2009 was on a differnet level, its very rare for two teams to reach those levels on the one day, especially in a final.

Village87

danganabu wrote: »

I think it was the greatest I have ever seen, I constantly have this conversation with lads in the local and they immediately spout about 2010, I understand the thinking as Tipp actually won, but for me, despite the result, the quality of hurling in 2009 was on a differnet level, its very rare for two teams to reach those levels on the one day, especially in a final.

I agree, Tipp played some of the best hurling i have seen for 65mins that day. They completly dominated Kilkenny for 50 minutes. Declan Fanning immense

Powerhouse

greenspurs wrote: »

A rookie team?

Yes, I know it's important to big them up in order to make greater Kilkenny's achievement but Tipperary had not been in an All Ireland final for eight years and only five of that team had started for Tipperary as recently as the 2007 quarter-final. Many of them had but a handful of championship games behind them. So a rookie team, yeah, definitely. And up against probably the most experienced team that has played in Croke Park.

Powerhouse

Village87 wrote: »

I agree, Tipp played some of the best hurling i have seen for 65mins that day. They completly dominated Kilkenny for 50 minutes.

That is the context for my view that some of what happened in the previous years was the intersection of a truly great team and a relatively weak field.

danganabu

Powerhouse wrote: »

Yes, I know it's important to big them up in order to make greater Kilkenny's achievement but Tipperary had not been in an All Ireland final for eight years and only five of that team had started for Tipperary as recently as the 2007 quarter-final. Many of them had but a handful of championship games behind them. So a rookie team, yeah, definitely. And up against probably the most experienced team that has played in Croke Park.

Nobody is bigging them up at all, but the fact is that only 3 of the starting 15 were in their rookie year, 5 of team all ready had an AI senior medal and 5 of the team had already won an all star (not the same 5), at the time they had also won back to back Munster titles.

greenspurs

danganabu wrote: »

Nobody is bigging them up at all, but the fact is that only 3 of the starting 15 were in their rookie year, 5 of team all ready had an AI senior medal and 5 of the team had already won an all star (not the same 5), at the time they had also won back to back Munster titles.

I think we are wasting our time...
He is either
A) a troll
knows a lot about ALL hurling...
C) Can never be incorrect
D) all of the above

Anyway .....

Powerhouse

greenspurs wrote: »

I think we are wasting our time...
He is either
A) a troll
knows a lot about ALL hurling...
C) Can never be incorrect
D) all of the above

Anyway .....

Again you are over-thinking things. I'm just someone with an opinion. You not agreeing with that opinion does not make the opinion-giver a troll even though someone having a different view of the world might astonish you.

Anyway..............

greenspurs

Powerhouse wrote: »

Again you are over-thinking things. I'm just someone with an opinion. You not agreeing with that opinion does not make the opinion-giver a troll even though someone having a different view of the world might astonish you.

Anyway..............

Yes all true, except I'm not over thinking things at all, I'm just of the opinion that
I find your way and your style of delivering that opinion that is , astonishing ..

ar aon nós ....

Powerhouse

greenspurs wrote: »

Yes all true, except I'm not over thinking things at all, I'm just of the opinion that
I find your way and your style of delivering that opinion that is , astonishing ..

ar aon nós ....

In what way is my style astonishing?