Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Michael Kavanagh

kk1970 wrote: »

Why is that?

I suppose I put that wrong he was under big pressure the last twelve months not making the team panel the day of the all Ireland, very bad displays with his club last autumn the county semi final he could have been taken off he was so bad. He was annomonous last Saturday night his discipline was terrible you would have to look at the display Pat Hartley gave in the same position for Tullogher and his.

Formosa

Noddy33 wrote: »

Rice and Brian Kennedy were dropped from the panel this week.I am a bit suprised about them cuts and i know Cody dosnt do sentiment but you would definitely prefer if a great servant like rice could leave on his own accord and wud have def thought his experience would have been surely worth it alone to have him around the squad. Kennedy has had his chances and has good wrists and stick work but seems his size just left him open to be exposed by the opposition

No, just nepotism...

randd1

Just looking around the panel now, and Colin Fennelly apart, there's no-one there that will burn a lad with pace up front.

I know pace isn't everything and that we have lads who can run all day and lads that are fast enough to get a bit of space for themselves, but we don't have seem to have anyone like Richie Power or Eddie Brennan who can burn a lad over 20 yards and bury it, an assassin.

Anyone coming through the ranks? I haven't seen any really.

Hawkeye6

barneygumble99 wrote: »

Six St Kieran's Croke Cup winners named in Kilkenny team for Offaly minor clash
the42.ie/2730823

More media hype about a school, one of two in the city, leading people to think that they are the only schools capable of producing hurlers. Unfortunately, our minor management are part of the hype as they ignore players outside the city schools catchment area for the most part. Something which if looked at in detail is having repercussions around the county as the selections gets more and city orientated with the colleges getting increased media exposure.

18 out the 24 named players on the programme were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
11 of the starting team were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
ALL 5 subs introduced were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS (4 from Kierans)
75% of our best minors are in the city schools??? Are the city colleges superseding the Development squads?? What is the point of development squads then?? They cater for every club up to Under-17, but what happens at minor. Forget about it???

The truth is there are very good KILKENNY hurlers playing their colleges hurling in Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford, Laois and Carlow. The management teams over the past few years hardly want to know about them. But they are just as good as the city lads when put together. A team of them would probably beat the city selection.

A few weeks ago Kilkenny played Offaly in a minor hurling challenge in Clara without either the Kierans or CBS contingent. (4 of Saturdays team played)
Score KK 0-27 OFF 1-12. (Compare that to 3-25 to 1-13 with Kierans and Kilkenny CBS)
27 scores versus 28.
13 scores conceded versus 14.
Very little difference. In fact the 3 goals scored on Saturday came from non Kierans/CBS players. What does it do the confidence of these players who come through the squads system only to be ignored at minor because of where they go to school?? Lads who were subs on the city colleges teams are getting on the minor panel ahead of lads who play for their less famous college.

There is a direct link between the Kilkenny minor selection and the City schools. This has been the case for some time… The question is what is the effect on the overall state of hurling in the county??

Listing some of the junior clubs and thinking about their geography; Galmoy, Emeralds, John Lockes, Windgap, Piltown, Mooncoin, Carrigeen, Kilmacow, Slieverue, Graignamanagh, Blacks & Whites, Barrow Rangers and Cloneen. All border lying clubs and less likely to have pupils in the city secondary schools. Does Kilkenny really want to disenfranchise the passionate border counties in the coming years?

One more thought, these guys leave school at 18. When the support system of their city secondary school is gone. What happens? Think about our recent Under-21 record…. Their support system is gone and you’ve discarded the other lads.

Is it really a good idea to bank the future of Kilkenny hurling solely on the two city schools?? Surely our development squad system is a better production line and more inclusive of all clubs and players. The county board need to address this issue. There is no doubt some development squad coaches are unhappy that the work done through the squad system is being ignored at minor.

blackcard

randd1 wrote: »

Just looking around the panel now, and Colin Fennelly apart, there's no-one there that will burn a lad with pace up front.

I know pace isn't everything and that we have lads who can run all day and lads that are fast enough to get a bit of space for themselves, but we don't have seem to have anyone like Richie Power or Eddie Brennan who can burn a lad over 20 yards and bury it, an assassin.

Anyone coming through the ranks? I haven't seen any really.

Liam Blanchfield has decent pace, needs to work on his finishing but he seems to be made of the right stuff

jeff bingham

randd1 wrote:

Anyone coming through the ranks? I haven't seen any really.

John Walsh? Still has to make it of course but has a serious turn of pace.

Realt Dearg Sec

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

More media hype about a school, one of two in the city, leading people to think that they are the only schools capable of producing hurlers. Unfortunately, our minor management are part of the hype as they ignore players outside the city schools catchment area for the most part. Something which if looked at in detail is having repercussions around the county as the selections gets more and city orientated with the colleges getting increased media exposure.

18 out the 24 named players on the programme were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
11 of the starting team were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
ALL 5 subs introduced were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS (4 from Kierans)
75% of our best minors are in the city schools??? Are the city colleges superseding the Development squads?? What is the point of development squads then?? They cater for every club up to Under-17, but what happens at minor. Forget about it???

The truth is there are very good KILKENNY hurlers playing their colleges hurling in Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford, Laois and Carlow. The management teams over the past few years hardly want to know about them. But they are just as good as the city lads when put together. A team of them would probably beat the city selection.

A few weeks ago Kilkenny played Offaly in a minor hurling challenge in Clara without either the Kierans or CBS contingent. (4 of Saturdays team played)
Score KK 0-27 OFF 1-12. (Compare that to 3-25 to 1-13 with Kierans and Kilkenny CBS)
27 scores versus 28.
13 scores conceded versus 14.
Very little difference. In fact the 3 goals scored on Saturday came from non Kierans/CBS players. What does it do the confidence of these players who come through the squads system only to be ignored at minor because of where they go to school?? Lads who were subs on the city colleges teams are getting on the minor panel ahead of lads who play for their less famous college.

There is a direct link between the Kilkenny minor selection and the City schools. This has been the case for some time… The question is what is the effect on the overall state of hurling in the county??

Listing some of the junior clubs and thinking about their geography; Galmoy, Emeralds, John Lockes, Windgap, Piltown, Mooncoin, Carrigeen, Kilmacow, Slieverue, Graignamanagh, Blacks & Whites, Barrow Rangers and Cloneen. All border lying clubs and less likely to have pupils in the city secondary schools. Does Kilkenny really want to disenfranchise the passionate border counties in the coming years?

One more thought, these guys leave school at 18. When the support system of their city secondary school is gone. What happens? Think about our recent Under-21 record…. Their support system is gone and you’ve discarded the other lads.

Is it really a good idea to bank the future of Kilkenny hurling solely on the two city schools?? Surely our development squad system is a better production line and more inclusive of all clubs and players. The county board need to address this issue. There is no doubt some development squad coaches are unhappy that the work done through the squad system is being ignored at minor.

Who is being overlooked that should be playing, and who should be dropped for them?

The comparison of the two offaly matches is meaningless unless they were both played against the same bunch of offaly players, which I doubt.

citykat

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

barneygumble99 wrote: »

Six St Kieran's Croke Cup winners named in Kilkenny team for Offaly minor clash
the42.ie/2730823

More media hype about a school, one of two in the city, leading people to think that they are the only schools capable of producing hurlers. Unfortunately, our minor management are part of the hype as they ignore players outside the city schools catchment area for the most part. Something which if looked at in detail is having repercussions around the county as the selections gets more and city orientated with the colleges getting increased media exposure.

18 out the 24 named players on the programme were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
11 of the starting team were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
ALL 5 subs introduced were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS (4 from Kierans)
75% of our best minors are in the city schools??? Are the city colleges superseding the Development squads?? What is the point of development squads then?? They cater for every club up to Under-17, but what happens at minor. Forget about it???

The truth is there are very good KILKENNY hurlers playing their colleges hurling in Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford, Laois and Carlow. The management teams over the past few years hardly want to know about them. But they are just as good as the city lads when put together. A team of them would probably beat the city selection.

A few weeks ago Kilkenny played Offaly in a minor hurling challenge in Clara without either the Kierans or CBS contingent. (4 of Saturdays team played)
Score KK 0-27 OFF 1-12. (Compare that to 3-25 to 1-13 with Kierans and Kilkenny CBS)
27 scores versus 28.
13 scores conceded versus 14.
Very little difference. In fact the 3 goals scored on Saturday came from non Kierans/CBS players. What does it do the confidence of these players who come through the squads system only to be ignored at minor because of where they go to school?? Lads who were subs on the city colleges teams are getting on the minor panel ahead of lads who play for their less famous college.

There is a direct link between the Kilkenny minor selection and the City schools. This has been the case for some time… The question is what is the effect on the overall state of hurling in the county??

Listing some of the junior clubs and thinking about their geography; Galmoy, Emeralds, John Lockes, Windgap, Piltown, Mooncoin, Carrigeen, Kilmacow, Slieverue, Graignamanagh, Blacks & Whites, Barrow Rangers and Cloneen. All border lying clubs and less likely to have pupils in the city secondary schools. Does Kilkenny really want to disenfranchise the passionate border counties in the coming years?

One more thought, these guys leave school at 18. When the support system of their city secondary school is gone. What happens? Think about our recent Under-21 record…. Their support system is gone and you’ve discarded the other lads.

Is it really a good idea to bank the future of Kilkenny hurling solely on the two city schools?? Surely our development squad system is a better production line and more inclusive of all clubs and players. The county board need to address this issue. There is no doubt some development squad coaches are unhappy that the work done through the squad system is being ignored at minor.

[font=Arial, sans-serif]That s a fair rant if you don t mind me saying so. Reads like a disgruntled parent or player. You d help your argument by listing some players who you feel have been overlooked. Personally, I don t accept your overall contention. Hoban afaik did not attend either school so wouldn t have any affinity or loyalty to either. He appears ambitious personally and for the team. Therefore I would be very surprised if he was overlooking players in favour of city based players. I imagine he just wants to get the best out on the pitch regardless of where they come from/went to school.[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]It s no surprise to me that the majority of players are provided by Kierans/CBS. Both schools have done a fair amount of hurling this year and hence the players have been playing to a high level for that time. A lot of those players are well drilled at this stage and would possess both the fitness and the hurling to prosper at inter county level. A player attending a non-hurling school would want to be one hell of a talent to be able to compete with a lad that has been hurling non-stop since last Sept.[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]As for non-representation of Junior clubs on the panel, last year, the following Junior clubs were represented: Glenmore, John Lockes, Barrow Rangers, Windgap, Mooncoin, Piltown.[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Last Sunday the following Junior clubs were represented: Piltown, Barrow Rangers, Blacks & Whites, Slieverue. All those lads will be training away and will get their chance over the summer. If they do their stuff in training, it won t matter where they went to school.[/font]

droppingball

The speed of thought and hands is what seperates Kilkenny hurlers.

Colin Fennelly is blessed with pace but wouldn't be a wristy hurler or a very natural hurler but his pace and workrate are very valuable assets.

Eddie Brennan was a great man to burn a player and pick off a score, as was DJ.

Tony Kelly is a great example of a speedster with loads of hurling but there aren't many others in the game that I can think off? They seem to be few and far between.

tbiggertycome

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

More media hype about a school, one of two in the city, leading people to think that they are the only schools capable of producing hurlers. Unfortunately, our minor management are part of the hype as they ignore players outside the city schools catchment area for the most part. Something which if looked at in detail is having repercussions around the county as the selections gets more and city orientated with the colleges getting increased media exposure.

18 out the 24 named players on the programme were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
11 of the starting team were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
ALL 5 subs introduced were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS (4 from Kierans)
75% of our best minors are in the city schools??? Are the city colleges superseding the Development squads?? What is the point of development squads then?? They cater for every club up to Under-17, but what happens at minor. Forget about it???

The truth is there are very good KILKENNY hurlers playing their colleges hurling in Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford, Laois and Carlow. The management teams over the past few years hardly want to know about them. But they are just as good as the city lads when put together. A team of them would probably beat the city selection.

A few weeks ago Kilkenny played Offaly in a minor hurling challenge in Clara without either the Kierans or CBS contingent. (4 of Saturdays team played)
Score KK 0-27 OFF 1-12. (Compare that to 3-25 to 1-13 with Kierans and Kilkenny CBS)
27 scores versus 28.
13 scores conceded versus 14.
Very little difference. In fact the 3 goals scored on Saturday came from non Kierans/CBS players. What does it do the confidence of these players who come through the squads system only to be ignored at minor because of where they go to school?? Lads who were subs on the city colleges teams are getting on the minor panel ahead of lads who play for their less famous college.

There is a direct link between the Kilkenny minor selection and the City schools. This has been the case for some time… The question is what is the effect on the overall state of hurling in the county??

Listing some of the junior clubs and thinking about their geography; Galmoy, Emeralds, John Lockes, Windgap, Piltown, Mooncoin, Carrigeen, Kilmacow, Slieverue, Graignamanagh, Blacks & Whites, Barrow Rangers and Cloneen. All border lying clubs and less likely to have pupils in the city secondary schools. Does Kilkenny really want to disenfranchise the passionate border counties in the coming years?

One more thought, these guys leave school at 18. When the support system of their city secondary school is gone. What happens? Think about our recent Under-21 record…. Their support system is gone and you’ve discarded the other lads.

Is it really a good idea to bank the future of Kilkenny hurling solely on the two city schools?? Surely our development squad system is a better production line and more inclusive of all clubs and players. The county board need to address this issue. There is no doubt some development squad coaches are unhappy that the work done through the squad system is being ignored at minor.

I had a look at the clubs that the Kilkenny minor panel is made up of and the make up of the St Kierans and CBS panels when they played each other in the Leinster final. The Kierans and CBS panels I have only included those who started or came on as subs that day as It's hard to find a list of the players with their clubs listed.
Theres a few things you seem to readily mix together here, city clubs and city schools. The city accounts for approx 26% of the population (95.4k in the county and 24.4k in the city). On the minor panel the 3 city clubs have 28% of the places on the minor panel. 9 city players out of 32 places is in no way excessive in fact it's very representative of the county.

The same 3 city clubs made up 49% of the players when the two teams played in the Leinster Final
22% of the Kierans team and 76% of the CBS panel.
Dicksboro =2 Kierans team +5 CBS team only 3 KK panel v Offaly

O'Loughlins =0 Kierans team +6 CBS team only 4 KK panel v Offaly

J Stephens =2 Kierans team +2 CBS team only 2 KK panel v Offaly

If your talking about lads who go to city schools dominating then your correct 63% (20players) of the minor panel played in that Colleges Leinster Final. But that also means that 37% (12 players) on the minor panel didn't play in that game and went to other schools. I would say Kilkenny is quite unique compared to many counties as our many town/city is right in the centre of the county and not up against one border and therefore has a large draw of players into it for education I would say the proportions of the minor panel is about correct for what I know of St Kierans students who come from almost every corner of the county.

St Kierans and CBS had 17 players from the 3 city teams but also had players from
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 3,
Young Irelands 2,
Emeralds 1,
Dunnamaggin 2,
Clara 2,
Conahy 1,
GBC 2,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 1,
Barrow Rangers 1.

Thats 14 of clubs represented,
6 Senior teams 23 players 65% of the teams,
6 Inter teams 10 players 29% of the teams,
2 Junior teams 2 players 6% of the teams,

Agreed there is nothing south of Dunnamaggin or Ballyhale in that list but I wouldn't expect there to be much. Although when I was in Kierans there were lads from Thomastown, Windgap, Graigue, Inistioge and even Mullinavat.

However the minor panel is more representative.
J Stephens 2,
OLG 4,
Dicksboro 3,
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 1,
Dunnamaggin 1,
Clara 2,
Conahy 2,
GBC 1,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 2,
Barrow Rangers 2,
St Martins 1,
Ttown 1,
Erin Own 2,
Piltown 2,
B&W 1,
Slieverue 1,
Rower Inistioge 1

Thats 19 clubs represented with
9 Senior teams 18 players 56% of squad,
6 Interm teams 8 players 25% of squad,
4 Junior teams 6 players 19% of squad,

Given how big the cities catchment area is it's no suprise to see how much of a representation its two main hurling schools have on the county minor panel I would say it's about proportionate.

Wheather it's right to have all those players concentrated in two schools is another argument but with Kierans especially being a more country orientated school and such a successful one it's hard to stop lads wanting to go there.
Look at 4 of it's most famous past pupils from a hurling perspective
Eddie Keher- Inistioge
DJ Carey- Gowran
Henry Shefflin- Ballyhale
Tommy Walsh- Tullaroan
All country lads and three on the borders of the county like your worried about

CBS is a much more city focused school and as a result has more city lads enrolled.

Another thing to look at however is the level of a lot of the clubs that are missing out. While they may be on the edge of the county their also in the lower divisons of the county championship.

Look at the map attached all the clubs in Black are Senior, Orange are Intermediate and Junior are Blue almost all the clubs your talking about are junior clubs and while these clubs can and do produce great players. Those players also have it harder competing with lads who come from the stronger clubs as outside of development squads they don't get the same level of competition. I think the minor panel has it about right to be honest.


There may well be young lads out there who deserve a go but I don't know of any. If clubs aren't happy they should have it addressed at a county board meeting by their rep. What would worry me more is that a parish like Slieverue population 5951 or Piltown population 3839, the 4th and 6th largest parish populations in the county are only at junior level. To me there is a far bigger question as to what is going on in both those clubs. Why aren't they challenging for higher honours? I don't know the answer I'm not from the south of the county.

After U17 unfortunately there are no other intercounty competitions for lads to be entered into hence the development squads cease. A young lad still has plenty of opportunities to shine if he's good enough. He has the U21 and Fitzgibbon to aim for plus he has club matches and intercounty Intermediate panel to go after. If he makes an impression you can be sure a certain Mr BC won't ignore him.

Have you any suggestions yourself as to what can be done?

Cornerback1

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

More media hype about a school, one of two in the city, leading people to think that they are the only schools capable of producing hurlers. Unfortunately, our minor management are part of the hype as they ignore players outside the city schools catchment area for the most part. Something which if looked at in detail is having repercussions around the county as the selections gets more and city orientated with the colleges getting increased media exposure.

18 out the 24 named players on the programme were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
11 of the starting team were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
ALL 5 subs introduced were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS (4 from Kierans)
75% of our best minors are in the city schools??? Are the city colleges superseding the Development squads?? What is the point of development squads then?? They cater for every club up to Under-17, but what happens at minor. Forget about it???

The truth is there are very good KILKENNY hurlers playing their colleges hurling in Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford, Laois and Carlow. The management teams over the past few years hardly want to know about them. But they are just as good as the city lads when put together. A team of them would probably beat the city selection.

A few weeks ago Kilkenny played Offaly in a minor hurling challenge in Clara without either the Kierans or CBS contingent. (4 of Saturdays team played)
Score KK 0-27 OFF 1-12. (Compare that to 3-25 to 1-13 with Kierans and Kilkenny CBS)
27 scores versus 28.
13 scores conceded versus 14.
Very little difference. In fact the 3 goals scored on Saturday came from non Kierans/CBS players. What does it do the confidence of these players who come through the squads system only to be ignored at minor because of where they go to school?? Lads who were subs on the city colleges teams are getting on the minor panel ahead of lads who play for their less famous college.

There is a direct link between the Kilkenny minor selection and the City schools. This has been the case for some time The question is what is the effect on the overall state of hurling in the county??

Listing some of the junior clubs and thinking about their geography; Galmoy, Emeralds, John Lockes, Windgap, Piltown, Mooncoin, Carrigeen, Kilmacow, Slieverue, Graignamanagh, Blacks & Whites, Barrow Rangers and Cloneen. All border lying clubs and less likely to have pupils in the city secondary schools. Does Kilkenny really want to disenfranchise the passionate border counties in the coming years?

One more thought, these guys leave school at 18. When the support system of their city secondary school is gone. What happens? Think about our recent Under-21 record . Their support system is gone and you ve discarded the other lads.

Is it really a good idea to bank the future of Kilkenny hurling solely on the two city schools?? Surely our development squad system is a better production line and more inclusive of all clubs and players. The county board need to address this issue. There is no doubt some development squad coaches are unhappy that the work done through the squad system is being ignored at minor.

I had a look at the clubs that the Kilkenny minor panel is made up of and the make up of the St Kierans and CBS panels when they played each other in the Leinster final. The Kierans and CBS panels I have only included those who started or came on as subs that day as It's hard to find a list of the players with their clubs listed.
Theres a few things you seem to readily mix together here, city clubs and city schools. The city accounts for approx 26% of the population (95.4k in the county and 24.4k in the city). On the minor panel the 3 city clubs have 28% of the places on the minor panel. 9 city players out of 32 places is in no way excessive in fact it's very representative of the county.

The same 3 city clubs made up 49% of the players when the two teams played in the Leinster Final
22% of the Kierans team and 76% of the CBS panel.
Dicksboro =2 Kierans team +5 CBS team only 3 KK panel v Offaly

O'Loughlins =0 Kierans team +6 CBS team only 4 KK panel v Offaly

J Stephens =2 Kierans team +2 CBS team only 2 KK panel v Offaly

If your talking about lads who go to city schools dominating then your correct 63% (20players) of the minor panel played in that Colleges Leinster Final. But that also means that 37% (12 players) on the minor panel didn't play in that game and went to other schools. I would say Kilkenny is quite unique compared to many counties as our many town/city is right in the centre of the county and not up against one border and therefore has a large draw of players into it for education I would say the proportions of the minor panel is about correct for what I know of St Kierans students who come from almost every corner of the county.

St Kierans and CBS had 17 players from the 3 city teams but also had players from
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 3,
Young Irelands 2,
Emeralds 1,
Dunnamaggin 2,
Clara 2,
Conahy 1,
GBC 2,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 1,
Barrow Rangers 1.

Thats 14 of clubs represented,
6 Senior teams 23 players 65% of the teams,
6 Inter teams 10 players 29% of the teams,
2 Junior teams 2 players 6% of the teams,

Agreed there is nothing south of Dunnamaggin or Ballyhale in that list but I wouldn't expect there to be much. Although when I was in Kierans there were lads from Thomastown, Windgap, Graigue, Inistioge and even Mullinavat.

However the minor panel is more representative.
J Stephens 2,
OLG 4,
Dicksboro 3,
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 1,
Dunnamaggin 1,
Clara 2,
Conahy 2,
GBC 1,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 2,
Barrow Rangers 2,
St Martins 1,
Ttown 1,
Erin Own 2,
Piltown 2,
B&W 1,
Slieverue 1,
Rower Inistioge 1

Thats 19 clubs represented with
9 Senior teams 18 players 56% of squad,
6 Interm teams 8 players 25% of squad,
4 Junior teams 6 players 19% of squad,

Given how big the cities catchment area is it's no suprise to see how much of a representation its two main hurling schools have on the county minor panel I would say it's about proportionate.

Wheather it's right to have all those players concentrated in two schools is another argument but with Kierans especially being a more country orientated school and such a successful one it's hard to stop lads wanting to go there.
Look at 4 of it's most famous past pupils from a hurling perspective
Eddie Keher- Inistioge
DJ Carey- Gowran
Henry Shefflin- Ballyhale
Tommy Walsh- Tullaroan
All country lads and three on the borders of the county like your worried about

CBS is a much more city focused school and as a result has more city lads enrolled.

Another thing to look at however is the level of a lot of the clubs that are missing out. While they may be on the edge of the county their also in the lower divisons of the county championship.

Look at the map attached all the clubs in Black are Senior, Orange are Intermediate and Junior are Blue almost all the clubs your talking about are junior clubs and while these clubs can and do produce great players. Those players also have it harder competing with lads who come from the stronger clubs as outside of development squads they don't get the same level of competition. I think the minor panel has it about right to be honest.


There may well be young lads out there who deserve a go but I don't know of any. If clubs aren't happy they should have it addressed at a county board meeting by their rep. What would worry me more is that a parish like Slieverue population 5951 or Piltown population 3839, the 4th and 6th largest parish populations in the county are only at junior level. To me there is a far bigger question as to what is going on in both those clubs. Why aren't they challenging for higher honours? I don't know the answer I'm not from the south of the county.

After U17 unfortunately there are no other intercounty competitions for lads to be entered into hence the development squads cease. A young lad still has plenty of opportunities to shine if he's good enough. He has the U21 and Fitzgibbon to aim for plus he has club matches and intercounty Intermediate panel to go after. If he makes an impression you can be sure a certain Mr BC won't ignore him.

Have you any suggestions yourself as to what can be done?

Fair play. Great bit of research there.

Topcat32

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Fair play. Great bit of research there.

Very interesting map and layout of the senior teams. The main thing that stands out is large concentration of junior hurling clubs in south Kilkenny, an area where there is an expanding population.

Interesting also that there was a smaller than usual influence of the "City Schools"in last years starting team with only 6 of the starters having attended St Kierans. If im not mistaken there was 4 Ballyhale vocational school, 3 Good Council, 1 Castlecomer vocational school and 1 New Ross Vocational school

danganabu

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Look at 4 of it's most famous past pupils from a hurling perspective
Eddie Keher- Inistioge
DJ Carey- Gowran
Henry Shefflin- Ballyhale
Tommy Walsh- Tullaroan

You forgot about Eoin Kelly

tbiggertycome

danganabu wrote: »

You forgot about Eoin Kelly

Oh I didn't but mentioning him didn't help my argument. There were plenty more like him especially when Kierans had boarders.

Michael Kavanagh

danganabu wrote: »

You forgot about Eoin Kelly

Nicky Rackard

tbiggertycome

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

Nicky Rackard

Agreed but it was a conversation about Kilkenny players that's why I left them out. I could have included the great but relatively unknown John Alley from Durrow. He was on the same Kierans team as Eddie Keher and was a phenomenal centre back and won a Leinster and i think an AI colleges with amazing displays. He went to college in UCC and won all around him and was thought of as one of the finest hurlers in the country. He was begged by at least one Kilkenny County board delegation to play for Kilkenny as he was so close to the boundry. In fairness to him he picked his home county and ploughed a fairly unproductive furrow and never won much after college. If he had of played for Kilkenny he would probably be lauded now as an all time great definitely among Kilkenny teams.

Justice for the individual

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Agreed but it was a conversation about Kilkenny players that's why I left them out. I could have included the great but relatively unknown John Alley from Durrow. He was on the same Kierans team as Eddie Keher and was a phenomenal centre back and won a Leinster and i think an AI colleges with amazing displays. He went to college in UCC and won all around him and was thought of as one of the finest hurlers in the country. He was begged by at least one Kilkenny County board delegation to play for Kilkenny as he was so close to the boundry. In fairness to him he picked his home county and ploughed a fairly unproductive furrow and never won much after college. If he had of played for Kilkenny he would probably be lauded now as an all time great definitely among Kilkenny teams.

You missed out the most famous of all - Nick O'Donnell.

He won a Junior All-Ireland with Kilkenny and was a sub on the winning Kilkenny Senior team of 1947, and despite being numbered at 22 only 21 medals were given out. That fact rankled him, and he carried that regret all his life as he would have treasured getting that medal for Kilkenny. He gave up on playing for Kilkenny and moved to Enniscorthy playing for the St.Aidan's Club. He later won 3 All-Ireland medals playing with his adopted county of Wexford.

The GAA could still make a gesture to honour 'Nicko', by having a medal specially minted for him and present it to his family.

I have a vested interest in this, as he was a cousin of my mother, and his sister was a bridesmaid at my mother's wedding.

The medal presented to his family would be a brilliant gesture, if it could be organised.

The Dickler

jeff bingham wrote: »

They went to a quieter pub in town so as not to be seen.

FFS. A quieter pub in a one horse town. It's not as if it's a city or something.
Thrown off the panel foe stupidity more like.

The Dickler

droppingball wrote: »

We seem to be very tight on corner backs, anyone called in?

After last week the best people you could call are the Samaritans.

Realt Dearg Sec

The Dickler wrote: »

After last week the best people you could call are the Samaritans.

Are you done trying to wind people up or do you have any more material to get through before scuttling back to the Waterford thread?

The Dickler

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Are you done trying to wind people up or do you have any more material to get through before scuttling back to the Waterford thread?

Lol. Sorry Realt. I seriously think ye are in a bit of bother though. Is Cody losing touch here? Great man and all that he is all thing must end. With TJ calling for sweepers and the likes of Clare using you for target practice maybe it's time you looked for someone a bit more in touch with the modern game. I have it from good authority that Eddie Brennan is only gagging for the job.

dastardly00

The Dickler wrote: »

Lol. Sorry Realt. I seriously think ye are in a bit of bother though. Is Cody losing touch here? Great man and all that he is all thing must end. With TJ calling for sweepers and the likes of Clare using you for target practice maybe it's time you looked for someone a bit more in touch with the modern game. I have it from good authority that Eddie Brennan is only gagging for the job.

Yawn. Is that the best trolling you can do? Poor effort. Try harder.

The Dickler

dastardly00 wrote: »

Yawn. Is that the best trolling you can do? Poor effort. Try harder.

That's it. Bury your head in the sand.

Realt Dearg Sec

The Dickler wrote: »

Lol. Sorry Realt. I seriously think ye are in a bit of bother though. Is Cody losing touch here? Great man and all that he is all thing must end. With TJ calling for sweepers and the likes of Clare using you for target practice maybe it's time you looked for someone a bit more in touch with the modern game. I have it from good authority that Eddie Brennan is only gagging for the job.

He must have lost touch at some point since September. Seemed pretty in touch at that stage. I know there have been massive strides in the way the game is played since then, but I'm sure he'll catch up between now and championship.

citykat

dastardly00 wrote: »

Yawn. Is that the best trolling you can do? Poor effort. Try harder.

Ah go easy on him. Sounds like he just broke the pledge. Pity the poor f***er sitting beside him on the bus home.

unrealtime

Who the f.... are Waterford?

dubcat51

Shocking stuff clare v waterford . hurling needs a non sweeper playing team to win the all ireland for the sake of the game.at a wedding down west yesterday and saw paddy power were offering 7/1 on us winning the u 21st this year.put 50 on at 7. Waterford at 2/1 are the bookies favs followed by galway.

blackcard

dubcat51 wrote: »

Shocking stuff clare v waterford . hurling needs a non sweeper playing team to win the all ireland for the sake of the game.at a wedding down west yesterday and saw paddy power were offering 7/1 on us winning the u 21st this year.put 50 on at 7. Waterford at 2/1 are the bookies favs followed by galway.

I would even prefer Tipperary to win than have this style of hurling, at least they play the game the right way

Cornerback1

blackcard wrote: »

dubcat51 wrote: »

Shocking stuff clare v waterford . hurling needs a non sweeper playing team to win the all ireland for the sake of the game.at a wedding down west yesterday and saw paddy power were offering 7/1 on us winning the u 21st this year.put 50 on at 7. Waterford at 2/1 are the bookies favs followed by galway.

I would even prefer Tipperary to win than have this style of hurling, at least they play the game the right way

Brutal to watch alright. Giving hurling a bad name.

blackcard

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Brutal to watch alright. Giving hurling a bad name.

In fairness, extra time has been entertaining

dubcat51

Best part was xtra time . would also prefer to see tipp win than see a team winning playing in the manner waterford play.no sign of them changing just more and more of the same boring stuff.do waterford supporters no what it is to see a goal.

Cornerback1

blackcard wrote: »

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Brutal to watch alright. Giving hurling a bad name.

In fairness, extra time has been entertaining

That's when the game came to life. Lively finish but first 70mins were forgetable. Serious wdes by Waterford and serious frees given away by Clare.

Not sure if the want another match with Munster c'ship so close by.

adrian522

blackcard wrote: »

I would even prefer Tipperary to win than have this style of hurling, at least they play the game the right way

Ah here, that's deserving of a ban

dubcat51

Takes a lot to wish a win for tipp.but this sweeper system has begun to ruin our great game.with the forwards clare have why would you play 7 at the back.natueal talent giving way to managerial systems.waterford also have great young players but they must be getting sick of seen balls hit wide over there heads from 70 _80 yards out.once they don't win with this system fans will soon turn on management. Certainly wouldn't buy a season ticket to watch them (not value for money )

blackcard

dubcat51 wrote: »

Takes a lot to wish a win for tipp.but this sweeper system has begun to ruin our great game.with the forwards clare have why would you play 7 at the back.natueal talent giving way to managerial systems.waterford also have great young players but they must be getting sick of seen balls hit wide over there heads from 70 _80 yards out.once they don't win with this system fans will soon turn on management. Certainly wouldn't buy a season ticket to watch them (not value for money )

You can see the sweeper system being used in a lot more games. Have seen it at club level and at college level. Running the ball into contact and the short passing game seems to be confined to county level. It is changing the very nature of hurling and not for the better

Michael Kavanagh

The Dickler wrote: »

Lol. Sorry Realt. I seriously think ye are in a bit of bother though. Is Cody losing touch here? Great man and all that he is all thing must end. With TJ calling for sweepers and the likes of Clare using you for target practice maybe it's time you looked for someone a bit more in touch with the modern game. I have it from good authority that Eddie Brennan is only gagging for the job.

1959 a long time ago I often wonder why Waterford employers go for people across the Bridge education

Michael Kavanagh

Justice for the individual wrote: »

You missed out the most famous of all - Nick O'Donnell.

He won a Junior All-Ireland with Kilkenny and was a sub on the winning Kilkenny Senior team of 1947, and despite being numbered at 22 only 21 medals were given out. That fact rankled him, and he carried that regret all his life as he would have treasured getting that medal for Kilkenny. He gave up on playing for Kilkenny and moved to Enniscorthy playing for the St.Aidan's Club. He later won 3 All-Ireland medals playing with his adopted county of Wexford.

The GAA could still make a gesture to honour 'Nicko', by having a medal specially minted for him and present it to his family.

I have a vested interest in this, as he was a cousin of my mother, and his sister was a bridesmaid at my mother's wedding.

The medal presented to his family would be a brilliant gesture, if it could be organised.

That is the man I was actually thinking about its a pity the county board couldn't do something about it. Did he buy a farm down there settled down I meet him once with my father he was a big man.

Michael Kavanagh

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Agreed but it was a conversation about Kilkenny players that's why I left them out. I could have included the great but relatively unknown John Alley from Durrow. He was on the same Kierans team as Eddie Keher and was a phenomenal centre back and won a Leinster and i think an AI colleges with amazing displays. He went to college in UCC and won all around him and was thought of as one of the finest hurlers in the country. He was begged by at least one Kilkenny County board delegation to play for Kilkenny as he was so close to the boundry. In fairness to him he picked his home county and ploughed a fairly unproductive furrow and never won much after college. If he had of played for Kilkenny he would probably be lauded now as an all time great definitely among Kilkenny teams.

Fair enough but there was plenty of lads that hurled with kierans from outside the county that deserve mention and have great fondness for it still like Pat White Kildare his father was from Kilkenny , M Kelly from Blessington Co Wicklow that man you mentioned above all these lads were a much a part of kierans success as the locals were that's why Nicky Rackard was mentioned.

mountgomery burns

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

1959 a long time ago I often wonder why Waterford employers go for people across the Bridge education

Can you use your education please and write that last bit again in English so that we can understand what you're on about?

Realt Dearg Sec

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

Fair enough but there was plenty of lads that hurled with kierans from outside the county that deserve mention and have great fondness for it still like Pat White Kildare his father was from Kilkenny , M Kelly from Blessington Co Wicklow that man you mentioned above all these lads were a much a part of kierans success as the locals were that's why Nicky Rackard was mentioned.

Yeah but he wasn't talking about past players just to reminisce, it was in the context of an argument (conspiracy theory, really) claiming that the KK minor team was unfairly privileging Kierans and CBS players, which he was (quite successfully) tearing apart. It didn't matter that some people who weren't from Kilkenny happened to hurl there.

Justice for the individual

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

That is the man I was actually thinking about its a pity the county board couldn't do something about it. Did he buy a farm down there settled down I meet him once with my father he was a big man.

Yes, my uncle said he bought some land near Enniscorthy. I think 2 of his brothers were priests, and they were related to the Clashwilliam O'Donnells. My uncle had a photograph of the O'Donnells, and they were certainly all big men. Nick was about six foot three - a big raw-boned man. Ring was a smallish man, but very tough, and they used to have some great battles. Nick's son was a bank manager in Kilkenny a few years ago, probably still around. I think he was into the rugby.

I remember hearing there was an incident in an All-Ireland with Tipperary, where early in the game as Jimmy Doyle was soloing up the sideline, Nick charged across and hit him with a shoulder. Jimmy'a collarbone was broken I think, and he was carried off. At the time, Tipp were ruthless and did not hesitate to use whatever means necessary to win. Unfortunately, the incident between Nick and Jimmy involved two of the gentlemen in the sport.

The great 'Diamond' Hayden was the regular full back on the Kilkenny team when Nick was a sub, and he was from Barrowcore, not too far from Graiguenamanagh - but Nick would have found it hard to dislodge him at the time. In the 1947 All-Ireland, when the Kilkenny centre-back, Peter Prendergast was injured in a clash with Ring, The Diamond went to centre-back to mark Ring, and Fr. Ned Kavanagh was brought in ahead of Nick, which my uncle did not agree with. My uncle said that Nick was a better player at the time, and wondered why the selectors made that decision. Nick was a humble man, and said nothing at the time, but it hurt, and he then decided to throw in his lot with Wexford, and he had a point to prove. He won three All-Ireland's with Wexford and became the prince of fullbacks, being picked on the team of the century.

Michael Kavanagh

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah but he wasn't talking about past players just to reminisce, it was in the context of an argument (conspiracy theory, really) claiming that the KK minor team was unfairly privileging Kierans and CBS players, which he was (quite successfully) tearing apart. It didn't matter that some people who weren't from Kilkenny happened to hurl there.

I know what he was talking about I was just saying from talking to these people the enjoyment they had hurling with st kierans .

Hawkeye6

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah but he wasn't talking about past players just to reminisce, it was in the context of an argument (conspiracy theory, really) claiming that the KK minor team was unfairly privileging Kierans and CBS players, which he was (quite successfully) tearing apart. It didn't matter that some people who weren't from Kilkenny happened to hurl there.

Original post clearly stated “City secondary schools”
(issue fudged by poster stating “city clubs” and making it the main opposition point, so just to clarify)

The key numbers are;
75% of minor match day squad v Offaly were from “City secondary schools”
73% of starting team were from “City secondary schools”
100% of the substitutes introduced were from “City secondary schools”
About a dozen NON-“City secondary school” players were dropped from panel within hours of Kierans winning the All-Ireland without been given the chance to compare on the training ground with the lads from Kierans
40% of the “City secondary schools” senior squads saw No competitive college game time. (so what makes them better than to Non “City secondary schools” lads?)

This has happened in the past. Two years ago a player frequently mentioned here as a senior prospect was omitted from the minor team embarrassingly humbled by Dublin in the Nowlan Park. He did Not attend a “City secondary school”. After intervention from a high ranking county board official he was drafted in. He went on to play a huge role culminating with a Man of the Match performance in the All Ireland final.

Issue was also fudged by historic references going back to the fifties, but it is true that parents from country clubs have been head hunted to send their talented young Cumann Na Bunscoil player to Kierans in recent times. In addition, “AFAIK” a key member of the management team has a direct link with Kierans College (do your research)

One poster did put a lot of time into stats and that is respected, but they weren’t all relevant to proving it is a level playing field for minor level selection.

I suggest it isn’t a level playing field, it is getting worse and that it does have knock on effects on the geographical spread of junior clubs and our recent failures at Under-21 (which thankfully can be compensated for while the current senior management team is in place). But the first part needs to be understood before you can expand that debate. We can come back to the effect on junior reference (which was also taken out of context) at a later date and also the Under-21 (which nobody was prepared to analyse) so as the initial issue is not fudged. It is clear and understandable that the ex-students and teachers believe there is a level playing field, then they would.

kksaints

Just saw that Railyard won the senior football final on Saturday for the 3rd year in a row. Is that their season over or do they play in the Leinster Football Championship at any level?

JJs Left Hand

They play in the Intermediate Club Championship

Nedflanders02

kksaints wrote: »

Just saw that Railyard won the senior football final on Saturday for the 3rd year in a row. Is that their season over or do they play in the Leinster Football Championship at any level?

They'll Leinster Intermediate championship in Oct/Nov. They're still involved in the Carlow football league at the minute too which will run until around the middle of June.

Nedflanders02

kksaints wrote: »

Just saw that Railyard won the senior football final on Saturday for the 3rd year in a row. Is that their season over or do they play in the Leinster Football Championship at any level?

They'll play Leinster Intermediate championship in Oct/Nov. They're still involved in the Carlow football league at the minute too which will run until around the middle of June.

Nedflanders02

Did anyone hear how the U-21 challenge game between Kilkenny and Tipp went at the weekend, or has anyone any idea of the team?

danganabu

Nedflanders02 wrote: »

Did anyone hear how the U-21 challenge game between Kilkenny and Tipp went at the weekend, or has anyone any idea of the team?

Tipp won by two, 1-16 to 0-17, strong wind kind of ruined the game tbh.

Tipp had a reasonably strong team although were missing Ronan Maher, Barry Heffernan, Daire Quinn and Brain Hogan who are all with the seniors.

Not really sure what the KK line up was.

tbiggertycome

It's very obvious that this is something that your very passionate about and as another poster suggested this is very close to you personally. Thats great and informs your opinions as you almost definitely have had more direct experience of the set ups than me. I do think however that it has slightly skewed your perception of whats going on. I don't doubt your contention that lads were summarily dropped from the minor panel once the Kierans lads were ready. I do agree this is not good/nice/proper/decent way to treat them. However the management are there to make calls and they succeed or fall by these kinds of calls. The management dropped 12 lads they felt weren't as good as the lads they now had access to from the Kierans panel. You may not agree, I may not agree (if I knew them all as hurlers) but that doesn't matter unfortunately as it's not our decision to make.

To give you a different take on Kierans from talking to my closest Kierans connection. The place is a nightmare for the staff every September/October. They spend hours dealing with angry parents over young lads not making the team.
Take very typical case of Hypothetical Little Johnny a 1st year, he heads off to Kierans and Johnnys the best talent his club has produced in maybe 15 or 20 years.
Johnny goes for the Kierans U14's team trials going up against lads who've hurled at high levels all along and lads who are bigger/stronger/faster/fitter/better/older.
Johnny doesn't make it.
Johnny is totally devastated, he can't sleep at night, he can't concentrate in class because coming to Kierans and getting on the team is what he's dreamed of! He expected it of himself and it's what others expected of him.
Johnnys parents are understandably upset to see their young lad in such a state so they often get angry and cause pandemonium in the school after the team is announced.
However Johnny invariably goes back to his club and hurls on but he also hurls with lads in Kierans during the breaks and sees what the level he has to get to is.
Johnny trys out again in second year, he gets on to the team this time and plays very well.
Johnny is often the lad who makes the senior team when he's still in transition year and plays senior for 3 years.

To me this highlights the advantages of having a Kierans College in Kilkenny it is the stuff of lads dreams. It actually makes young lads who are already good better because they want to be on that Kierans team.

Just look at whats happened to Cork hurling since their strong hurling secondary schools North Mon & St Finbarrs have fallen by the way side. Hurling in Cork city has died and as a result has been in a terrible state all over the county.

I've made a few notes on your last post.

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Original post clearly stated “City secondary schools”
(issue fudged by poster stating “city clubs” and making it the main opposition point, so just to clarify) Well I stated I was unsure which you were referring to from reading your original post after reading this it is clearer. Thank you

The key numbers are;
75% of minor match day squad v Offaly were from “City secondary schools”
73% of starting team were from “City secondary schools”
100% of the substitutes introduced were from “City secondary schools”
About a dozen NON-“City secondary school” players were dropped from panel within hours of Kierans winning the All-Ireland without been given the chance to compare on the training ground with the lads from Kierans I agree this is a poor way of handling the young lads
40% of the “City secondary schools” senior squads saw No competitive college game time. (so what makes them better than to Non “City secondary schools” lads?) Very little to yours or my eyes but then again we're not the ones in watching the training all the time and I definitely haven't been following these guys up through the grades from U14's up. Most minor managements are appointed because of work they've done with certain underage groups up along and because of their knowledge of the players available at the age group

This has happened in the past. Two years ago a player frequently mentioned here as a senior prospect was omitted from the minor team embarrassingly humbled by Dublin in the Nowlan Park. He did Not attend a “City secondary school”. After intervention from a high ranking county board official he was drafted in. He went on to play a huge role culminating with a Man of the Match performance in the All Ireland final.
Ok are you talking about John Walsh in 2014 because he got man of the match, didn't go to a city school as far as I know. However the rest of the story doesn't match John Walsh. Heres his playing record or the minors in 2014!
v Dublin - 26 April - started FF- subbed for C Carroll(0-0)- scored 0-0
v Carlow - 10 May - started LCF- subbed for E Kenny(0-1) - scored 0-1
v Laois - 21 June - Sub- came on for RCF: R Corcoran(0-1)- scored 0-1
v Dublin - 6 July - Sub- came on 52mins for CF: R Butler(0-1) - scored 0-1
v Waterford - 10 August - Sub- came on 37mins for LWF: B Ryan(0-1)- scored 1-1
v Limerick - 7 September - started LCF- played full game- scored 2-5
So if it's not John Walsh who was this lad I can't figure it out?

Issue was also fudged by historic references going back to the fifties, I didn't fudge anything I used examples to show that Kierans has a long history of pulling in top talent from around the county but it is true that parents from country clubs have been head hunted to send their talented young Cumann Na Bunscoil player to Kierans in recent times. How recent? That last player I know that Kierans specifically went after was Tipperarys Eoin Kelly. What form does this head hunting take? Is it just a chat on the sidelines something like "Jasus your young lad is very good have you ever considered sending him to Kierans?" or does it actually have some sort of form where they actively call out too or call parents in? In addition, “AFAIK” a key member of the management team has a direct link with Kierans College (do your research) I have done my research and none of the management team has a direct link with Kierans college.
Here they're can you let me know which one has a link with Kierans and what the link is?
Pat Hoban (Mullinavat) - Manager; he has a son in Kierans but he's not on the minor panel or Kierans Senior team this year
Peter O'Donovan (Erins Own) - Selector; no known connection
Niall Mc Cormack (Dunnamaggin) - Selector; no known connection
Pat Nolan (Blacks & Whites) - Selector; no known connection
Ray O Keeffe (James Stephens) - Fitness & Conditioning; possibly being confused with another Mr O'Keeffe from the village who teaches in Kierans and trains their cross country team but not the same man.


One poster did put a lot of time into stats and that is respected, thank you but they weren’t all relevant to proving it is a level playing field for minor level selection. correct I was unsure as to which way your argument was going at the time

I suggest it isn’t a level playing field, it is getting worse and that it does have knock on effects on the geographical spread of junior clubs To be quite honest these guys have been watched coming through since at least U14's, through U16's and the top talent is spotted very early on and like it or not these are invariably the guys who do well. Those that are good enough are given the chances to prove it with the development squads and some develop late and are brought in and given a go, some make it, others don't. and our recent failures at Under-21 can be tracked back along way before they hit minor and has followed through to U21 unsurprisingly (which thankfully can be compensated for by the great talent we already have on board and the management are OK too the current senior management team is in place). But the first part needs to be understood before you can expand that debate. We can come back to the effect on junior reference We'll leave it for now so (which was also taken out of context) at a later date and also the Under-21 (which nobody was prepared to analyse) I am let me know what you would like analysed so as the initial issue is not fudged. It is clear and understandable that the ex-students and teachers believe there is a level playing field, then they would. what?