Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

citykat

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah but he wasn't talking about past players just to reminisce, it was in the context of an argument (conspiracy theory, really) claiming that the KK minor team was unfairly privileging Kierans and CBS players, which he was (quite successfully) tearing apart. It didn't matter that some people who weren't from Kilkenny happened to hurl there.

Original post clearly stated “City secondary schools”
(issue fudged by poster stating “city clubs” and making it the main opposition point, so just to clarify)

The key numbers are;
75% of minor match day squad v Offaly were from “City secondary schools”
73% of starting team were from “City secondary schools”
100% of the substitutes introduced were from “City secondary schools”
About a dozen NON-“City secondary school” players were dropped from panel within hours of Kierans winning the All-Ireland without been given the chance to compare on the training ground with the lads from Kierans
40% of the “City secondary schools” senior squads saw No competitive college game time. (so what makes them better than to Non “City secondary schools” lads?)

This has happened in the past. Two years ago a player frequently mentioned here as a senior prospect was omitted from the minor team embarrassingly humbled by Dublin in the Nowlan Park. He did Not attend a “City secondary school”. After intervention from a high ranking county board official he was drafted in. He went on to play a huge role culminating with a Man of the Match performance in the All Ireland final.

Issue was also fudged by historic references going back to the fifties, but it is true that parents from country clubs have been head hunted to send their talented young Cumann Na Bunscoil player to Kierans in recent times. In addition, “AFAIK” a key member of the management team has a direct link with Kierans College (do your research)

One poster did put a lot of time into stats and that is respected, but they weren’t all relevant to proving it is a level playing field for minor level selection.

I suggest it isn’t a level playing field, it is getting worse and that it does have knock on effects on the geographical spread of junior clubs and our recent failures at Under-21 (which thankfully can be compensated for while the current senior management team is in place). But the first part needs to be understood before you can expand that debate. We can come back to the effect on junior reference (which was also taken out of context) at a later date and also the Under-21 (which nobody was prepared to analyse) so as the initial issue is not fudged. It is clear and understandable that the ex-students and teachers believe there is a level playing field, then they would.

So a dozen lads were dropped from the Kilkenny minor panel. This occurred after Kierans had won the All Ireland. Presumably these lads had been training away/playing matches prior to that with the CBS lads. Would it be possible that in spite of their endeavours, these lads just didn t do enough to merit retention? That s where I would be focusing my energy rather than a possibility to shine in a once-off challenge match involving the Kierans players. The charge that the minor selectors dropped better players for inferior Kierans players thus jeopardising potential success later in the year is just not credible. I have heard theories regarding selectorial bias based on club affiliation but bias based on schooling, that s a new one on me.
Kilkenny has a well-established squad system involving U-14 North & South; U-15 North and South; U-16 and U17 North and South teams. The beauty of this system apart from hot housing talent is that given the geographical spread, every lad with potential in the county gets a chance to show his stuff. It doesn t matter where you went to school as the players are proposed by their clubs. It s also a form of conveyor belt for the minor team. By the time lads get to U18 their ability is well known to the selectors. If you re good enough you ll get a chance.
You back your theory on the proposition that the MOTM from the 2014 minor AI had to be brought in on the prompting of a county board official and hadn t been part of the first round game against Dublin. Well, if you did your own research, you d know that said individual was actually playing that day against Dublin, Full Forward in fact. He was subsequently dropped but got back in the team and the rest is history. I have no idea why he got dropped but I d imagine it was his form in training/challenge matches that got him dropped/reselected rather than some bull**** about an intervention from a county board official. Ironically this lad played with Hoban s old club.
BTW I presume you re aware that bar Hoban, all the minor back room team are new this year. If you re proposing that there was some kind of city-school bias back in 2014 and this year, that would imply some form of ingrained/institutional bias which as conspiracy theories go, is out there.

Finally you contend that this bias is affecting prospects at U21 inter county level. True Kilkenny have had some lean years recently but for a very simple reason, the players just weren t up to it. When these U21 teams were at minor level, they won sweet FA then as well. The U21 manager for the last two years was Brian Ryan. He has been a full time hurling coach in Kilkenny for more than 20 years. If anybody knows what talent is out there, then it s him. I ve met him at U10 go games ffs.

dubcat51

Any news on ins and outs from senior panel. Also any posters on here coming up for minor game next saturday

Cornerback1

Any challenge matches played or lined up does anyone know?

unrealtime

would love to hear progress with injuries - Fennelllys, Paul Murphy and Fogarty - and how Larkin is doing to get back to championship fare

Cornerback1

unrealtime wrote: »

would love to hear progress with injuries - Fennelllys, Paul Murphy and Fogarty - and how Larkin is doing to get back to championship fare

All very quiet these days. Maybe that's not a bad thing. You'd hope that the injuries would be healing up alright.

blackcard

unrealtime wrote: »

would love to hear progress with injuries - Fennelllys, Paul Murphy and Fogarty - and how Larkin is doing to get back to championship fare

Paul Murphy played midfield for Danesfort today, was fine

citykat

unrealtime wrote: »

would love to hear progress with injuries - Fennelllys, Paul Murphy and Fogarty - and how Larkin is doing to get back to championship fare

Henry was on the radio today in the build up to the match and said Mick had played half of a challenge match with the club this morning. Said he came through ok. Rest were all back hurling with their clubs last week and training away.

unrealtime

thanks for that - hope they are all 100%. We need the effort and skill these 5 all have and for them to be at their best if we are to win yet another AI.

Cornerback1

unrealtime wrote: »

thanks for that - hope they are all 100%. We need the effort and skill these 5 all have and for them to be at their best if we are to win yet another AI.

Will be a big challenge this year but same was said last year. Cody and lads are well used to recharging the batteries at this time of the year and pushing on.

Hopefully one or two can push and get a starting place. Hard to beat a settled team.

Also hope we get no more injuries!!!!!

blackcard

It is going to be a big challenge to Kilkenny to counter the style of the likes of Waterford and Clare. Instead of our half back line catching high ball, they will have to get used to opposition players running from deep and laying the ball off. Our forwards may get used to being outnumbered. It seems that you will have to have a lot of young athletic players (as well as being good hurlers). You can see clubs already changing their style to make better use of the ball. Hurling, for better or worse, will never be the same

Michael Kavanagh

Hopefully everybody will get through the next couple of rounds club games the next couple of weekends.

dubcat51

We need to win again or a galway Welford or dare I say tipp so that this systematic hurling is sent packing.2 bad mistakes by clare gave waterford their goals . otherwise we would have had the same bore again . interestingly crowd for the replay was down I believe by 5k.punters starting to vote with their feet . championship game between clare and waterford could be dire to watch.

Realt Dearg Sec

dubcat51 wrote: »

We need to win again or a galway Welford or dare I say tipp so that this systematic hurling is sent packing.2 bad mistakes by clare gave waterford their goals . otherwise we would have had the same bore again . interestingly crowd for the replay was down I believe by 5k.punters starting to vote with their feet . championship game between clare and waterford could be dire to watch.

Replays always have lower attendance.

JJs Left Hand

I can't wait for the Munster Championship game. They're going to tear strips off each other. Nice little bit of niggle after building up over the last 2 weeks and potential sideline shenanigans between Dan and Davy. Hopefully a dry day in Semple and with hurlers like TK, McGrath, Podge, Gleeson and Bennett it could be brilliant even with a packed middle. Conditions will dictate the game though in my opinion. With hurlers of that calibre on a dry day then their touch will be good enough to make the game entertaining. A wet day and it'll lead to carnage.

Hype around Clare building nicely and while the pundits aren't, the general public are talking us down lovely. Still think with a fully fit 15 we beat anyone. Massive task this year though. Looking forward to it.

adrian522

Good article on Michael Fennelly and his injury woes...

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/michael-fennelly-still-up-to-the-task-and-it-s-still-worth-it-1.2640875

blue note

dubcat51 wrote: »

We need to win again or a galway Welford or dare I say tipp so that this systematic hurling is sent packing.2 bad mistakes by clare gave waterford their goals . otherwise we would have had the same bore again . interestingly crowd for the replay was down I believe by 5k.punters starting to vote with their feet . championship game between clare and waterford could be dire to watch.

We heard the same sort of thing as this during the last decade in relation to Kilkenny's system - their swarm, ulster football like defence was killing the interest in the game. I think there were Leinster finals in the 90s with 50k at them, then in the 00s there were finals with 15k at them.

Personally I think the lack of competitiveness affected attendances, the style not so much. But what do you think? Were people wrong the last time round but are right this time?

JimboJones99

blue note wrote: »

We heard the same sort of thing as this during the last decade in relation to Kilkenny's system - their swarm, ulster football like defence was killing the interest in the game. I think there were Leinster finals in the 90s with 50k at them, then in the 00s there were finals with 15k at them.

Personally I think the lack of competitiveness affected attendances, the style not so much. But what do you think? Were people wrong the last time round but are right this time?

Yeah I think if the games are going to be competitive then attendances wont be affected. The more competitive they are the more people will want to go and support their own team. I know a lot of people don't bother going to KK games as they feel they are too one-sided and not value for money.

However I do think it will affect the neutrals going to games and in particular the TV audience. I used to love watching the football games, now I'd rarely watch a game for the full 70 mins the way its gone. Personally I don't think hurling is gone nearly as bad but the more defensive it gets, the more people are going to switch off.

dubcat51

Anyone know if your season card gets u into the minor match on Saturday?

blackcard

dubcat51 wrote: »

Anyone know if your season card gets u into the minor match on Saturday?

Afraid not

dubcat51

8pts to 4 up at half time in minor match.fortunate to be ahead.dublin missed many points and a couple of goals.kilkenny missed a great chance by Sean bolger.delaney stand out for kilkenny so far.

dubcat51

Last minute goal for dublin.xtra time.mullen and donnelan doing the scoring for kilkenny. 1-12 to 15pts at full time.10 min each way xtra time to be played.

Topcat32

Dissapointing result for the Kilkenny minors, caught in injury time for the second year in a row. Parnell Park is a tough place to get a result.

dubcat51

Only 2 forwards mullen and donnellly Sucker goal at the end of the game.hard to see many seniors from this team (but time will tell)shocking ref from wexford for both teams.

Topcat32

dubcat51 wrote: »

Only 2 forwards mullen and donnellly Sucker goal at the end of the game.hard to see many seniors from this team (but time will tell)shocking ref from wexford for both teams.

Apart from mullen and donnelly did anybody else stand out?

BORO BILL

Donnelly outstanding through out.mullen had good second half, rest of forwards made no contribution. Kilkenny lost midfield battle and Kilkenny defence was poor at times inability to clear the ball cost them several scores. Kilkenny goalie had good game also. Some of john donnellys fielding and score taking was top drawer didn't deserve to be on losing side

dubcat51

Not really top cat. Tommy Walsh solid and Darren mullen and John connolly hurled ok.the team seemed a bit lack luster to me.always ahead until dublin goaled in the last minute.dublin missed many points in the first half.team didn't show enough urgency to drive it over the line.pity because as we have seen once you get to leinster final you are guaranteed 2 games.at this age teams can improve and develop. Look at last year beaten at the first round by dublin but then beat them by 9 in the final. Parnell Park also doesn't suit our teams.

Topcat32

dubcat51 wrote: »

Not really top cat. Tommy Walsh solid and Darren mullen and John connolly hurled ok.the team seemed a bit lack luster to me.always ahead until dublin goaled in the last minute.dublin missed many points in the first half.team didn't show enough urgency to drive it over the line.pity because as we have seen once you get to leinster final you are guaranteed 2 games.at this age teams can improve and develop. Look at last year beaten at the first round by dublin but then beat them by 9 in the final. Parnell Park also doesn't suit our teams.

Im surprised Evan Carroll didnt start and Connolly wasnt pushed forward, my impression of the team this year was that it had good solid hurlers but didnt have the type of player such as Liam Blanchfield, Alan Murphy, John Walsh and Richie Leahy that could drag the team through a tough match like todays. Next year is the last year that minor will be under 18 and I think the GAA has made a deliberate effort to reduce the significance of minor hurling, which given Kilkenny's history in the competition is sad. It will be interesting to see how Kilkenny deal with this issue as there is a very big gap between under 17 and under 21.

dubcat51

Spot on top cat. This team didn't have the calibre of the players you have mentioned..could have put connolly up front as 4 forwards didnt score.no outstanding players on the dublin team.but they worked hard and had good support from the stands.we were to lack luster for me.

Dan Chipowski

The Village beat The Rower by 4pts this evening (1-14 to 0-13) in a close enough contest which was of a poor standard, truth be told.

Niall Mullins got the crucial goal mid-way through the first half, while The Rower's forward line really struggled and shot some awful wides in the second half.

Kieran Joyce and Eoin Larkin were the two outstanding players on view. Both hurled excellently, and Larkin looked very sharp.

MfMan

KK minors out now? If so, bit surprising considering their dominance at colleges level.

Topcat32

MfMan wrote: »

KK minors out now? If so, bit surprising considering their dominance at colleges level.

Well collages is under 18 and a half rather than under 18 which is actually a big difference at that age, also some of the minors have actually being struggleing to make their school team over the last few years which is obviously far from ideal.

randd1

MfMan wrote: »

KK minors out now? If so, bit surprising considering their dominance at colleges level.

Dublin made the SF's last year, and had a few left over this year so they were always going to be a tough task, especially away from home.

That said, I think there is a problem there in Kilkenny at underage, and it's manifested at minor the last few years where given our talent we should probably have gotten another AI out of them. Even going back to 2013 when we came out of a slump of 2 years, 2014 apart we just don't seem to have the ability to create goals to win games.

Hurling wise we are as good as what's out there, better than most, but we lack the killer instinct for goal, Waterford 2013, Galway twice last year, Dublin this year, all games where we failed to match the opposition in goals or even get one.

We seem to have lads willing to take the point than take a risk. Fair enough in getting scores, but a lot of our teams are getting by strangling the opposition, but we're lacking assassins around the goal, lads who know instinctively to go for goal first. Kieran's this year in the final are a prime example, much the better side, content to take the points, left the opposition in the game that they should have won well out and almost let it slip, instead of going for the jugular.

dobbs2210

Dan Chipowski wrote: »

The Village beat The Rower by 4pts this evening (1-14 to 0-13) in a close enough contest which was of a poor standard, truth be told.

Niall Mullins got the crucial goal mid-way through the first half, while The Rower's forward line really struggled and shot some awful wides in the second half.

Kieran Joyce and Eoin Larkin were the two outstanding players on view. Both hurled excellently, and Larkin looked very sharp.

Thought the hour showed up two very poor teams. Larkin dragged the Village to victory. Both sets of fowards looked very average. Neither will be featuring for championship honors later in year going on tonight.

Thought Diarmuid Cody played poorly tonight.
Kieran Joyce hurled well for the Rower.

dubcat51

Minors had 2 great chances for goals yesterday but fluffed them.first one the corner fwd bolger from o lough link missed a sitter.2nd chance whitby from Danes fort burst through drew the last man but put his hand pass behind mullen and chance was gone . either of those would have closed out the game.lack of killer instinct.dublin not great but very industrious.

citykat

Boro 4-15 Fenians 1-12. Boro made hard work of this one though they weren't 12 pts better. Couple of late goals killed what had been a lively encounter. Buckley played most of the game at centre forward and looked ordinary for him. If they played a bit more direct, Boro could do some damage this year. Best for Fenians were Grehan (MF), two Tobins Conor/Darragh and Phelan (CF).

Cornerback1

citykat wrote: »

Boro 4-15 Fenians 1-12. Boro made hard work of this one though they weren't 12 pts better. Couple of late goals killed what had been a lively encounter. Buckley played most of the game at centre forward and looked ordinary for him. If they played a bit more direct, Boro could do some damage this year. Best for Fenians were Grehan (MF), two Tobins Conor/Darragh and Phelan (CF).

Would Buckley be an option at half-forward for the Cats?

pat 22

John Walsh scored 3-6 for Mullinavat today. Anyone know how much of this was from play?

Cornerback1

pat 22 wrote: »

John Walsh scored 3-6 for Mullinavat today. Anyone know how much of this was from play?

That's after him playing yesterday also.

pat 22

What game was that yesterday?

Cornerback1

pat 22 wrote: »

What game was that yesterday?

Wrong thread Pat!

randd1

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Would Buckley be an option at half-forward for the Cats?

No, he's usually lost there. Wing back is his best position by far. Though he hasn't been in great form this year.

JJs Left Hand

2 wins from 2... hon the parish.. we're going to win the lot

In Liam Dowling we trust

citykat

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Would Buckley be an option at half-forward for the Cats?

He was like a fish out of water against JJ today. I don't think he has the hands for the forwards. Imo he's most comfortable attacking the ball where he can use his athleticism.

dobbs2210

Joey holden was absolutely destroyed today. He was roasted against Mullinavat. Worrying for Kilkenny.

dastardly00

dobbs2210 wrote: »

Joey holden was absolutely destroyed today. He was roasted against Mullinavat. Worrying for Kilkenny.

Jesus, just looked at the score there. Ballyhale conceded 5-7. That's the type of score that you would typically see from a match in the 1940's or something.

droppingball

Was John Walsh on the frees or how much of the 3-6 cames from play?

John Power didn't line out for Carrickshock, not sure why.

Sounds like the Bridge got a bit of a trimming, thought they would beat St Martins, but it will probably take a while to acclimatise to senior hurling.

brookville

dobbs2210 wrote: »

Joey holden was absolutely destroyed today. He was roasted against Mullinavat. Worrying for Kilkenny.

Ive seem him struggle for the club at times but we've no one better for the county in that position.he was very good last year.did michael fennelley play?john walsh has being in good form since he came back from injury the dry sod will suit him hopefully he gets called into senior training

Comerman

Was out at Erin's Own v Danesfort yesterday evening, Conor Delaney gave Paul Murphy (playing at center forward) a lesson in hurling, so much so they moved him out to midfield for the second half where he did very little.

dirkmeister

droppingball wrote: »

Was John Walsh on the frees or how much of the 3-6 cames from play?

He was on the frees.
His 3 goals were all from play, he might have scored a point from play also.

brookville

dirkmeister wrote: »

He was on the frees.
His 3 goals were all from play, he might have scored a point from play also.

Who was he full foward?