Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

dubcat51

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

In Kilkenny, we need to mentally deal with the loss of key players for the final better. It is still 15 on 15.

Just from a history point of view. Kilkenny won the All-Ireland in 1972 beating Cork. In 1973, we suffered the losses of Eddie Keher, Kieran Purcell, Jim Treacy and Eamonn Morrissey as well as losing Frank Cummins early on. Limerick beat us. Twelve months later in 1974 we were champions again and again in 1975.

Kilkenny won the All-Ireland in 2009 beating Tipperary. In 2010, we suffered the losses of Henry Shefflin, Brian Hogan and effectively, John Tennyson. Tipperary beat us. Twelve months later in 2011 we were champions again and again in 2012.

Kilkenny won the All-Ireland in 2015. In 2016, we all know about Michael Fennelly and you could possibly add Ger Aylward and James Maher. Who would genuinely bet against us in twelve months and two years time??



I agree that there are a lot of very good players coming through. Blanchfield and Kelly both did well in their baptisms. Others are very promising. The issue we face is that the vast majority of good players coming through are forwards. Natural backs are scarce. Some of the better defensive prospects coming through have either lost form or departed for other pastures. There is a challenge there. Lets not forget how well our intermediate team did this year winning the All-Ireland and scoring for fun, though they did have defensive issues too.



The other area of challenge is the whole area between minor and Under-21. As I ve mentioned on numerous occasions, the amount of players now in Kierans College where they are getting plenty of training but the vast majority are not getting matches of note. Kierans have a senior panel of over 40 players where only 18 are actually playing the key league/championship games. Lots of these should be with their local school getting match experience that would be more beneficial (there was no Kierans player involved in minor final yesterday or last year for that matter). After the historic Under-17 win last week (Without key Kierans/CBS players!), we should be favourites for Minor in 2017, but I wonder

There also seems to be a relative lack of Kilkenny representation on Fitzgibbon teams. Anyone wonder why? This is a key area of player development. Cyril Farrell mentioned several lads from the Tipp team who were stars with their third level institute. Had we any?



We lost ONE MATCH to a better team yesterday. That s all. No need for panic, but there is a need to review and ensure continuous improvement. Under-19 development squads?? Understand our Fitzgibbon representation. Review of underage structures in conjunction with the age grade changes at inter county level That ll be a tough one for every county in what was a very poorly thought out move.



In Cody s era, we didn t panic after 1999, 2004, 2010 or 2013. Lets not panic now. Congrats to Tipp for now.

Spot on hawkeye

mickmackey1

Having a vastly experienced defender like Tyrrell and then not bringing him on in that situation makes you wonder what he was doing on the bench in the first place.

blackcard

First, congratulations to Tipp, they have been unlucky to come out on the wrong side on a few occasions. They play a nice brand of hurling and are deserving champions. From a kk point of view, I couldn't fault the effort put in. I don't think we had the same hunger as Tipp but that is understandable. I thought our touch has been a bit off all year and this continued. I also thought our tactics weren't right and we played into Tipps hands by leaving our backs so exposed. The losses of Michael Fennelly, Ger Aylward and James Maher didn't help and you would have loved to have a fully fit Richie Power. Still, we had some good days this year and hopefully there will be more to come next year.

citykat

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

As I ve mentioned on numerous occasions, the amount of players now in Kierans College where they are getting plenty of training but the vast majority are not getting matches of note. Kierans have a senior panel of over 40 players where only 18 are actually playing the key league/championship games. Lots of these should be with their local school getting match experience that would be more beneficial (there was no Kierans player involved in minor final yesterday or last year for that matter).

I agree 100% with this. It's ridiculous the number of lads driving past their local school to attend city schools. The intake this year for Kierans is 150. That's approaching 900 students in the school now. Compared to say Callan CBS which is struggling to get students.
Tbf though, this was not the point you made on numerous occasions.

MfMan

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

What are you talking about did the man not get an allstar last year he must have doing something right , as regards Joe Canning you get sick of hearing excuses about him.

Ye could have done with a bit of a Joe-show yesterday, considering the no-show of the forwards.

mullinr2

Right lads this year is done and dusted, I'd say Cody is already thinking about next year. We need 3 new backs. Walsh, Murphy and Buckley are 100% safe. Im sorry but Holden and Pender don't inspire confidence in me and Joyce had a few good years but had a bad one this year.
If Tipp keep the same intensity for next year no one will come close to them. We need to build for maybe winning the All Ireland in 3/4 years. Tipp will win a 3 in a row.
We need to build a new team. Rob Lennon CB. Maybe move Cillian Buckley to full back. JJ worked a treat there why can't Buckley.
Luke Scanlon Midfield with Fogarty. We can't rely on Fennelly to be fit unfortunately.
TJ, Walter and Richie Hogan
Ger Alyward, Fennelly and Kevin Kelly. We need skillful players like Kelly in the team. He did well yesterday. We need to feed the ball into the full forward line much better so players like Alyward and Kelly can shine.
Have players like Alan Murphy Richie leahy, Liam Blanchfield on the bench to bring on. Eoin Larkin might retire but if not he doesn't have the legs to play a full 70 mins.
Cody needs to change things. We won't win with the same panel and style of play.

JJs Left Hand

I don't even know where to start with that.... I think and hope it's a piss take...

pmy.murphy

Need to freshen things up during the next league campaign, one mistake Brian Cody made this year was not bringing enough lads through during the league other than James Maher and Lennon which I was surprised about and reckoned at the time the lack of squad depth may come back to haunt us later in the year. Need at least 4 or 5 next year as we may have one or two more retirements

Dionysis

mullinr2 wrote: »

Right lads this year is done and dusted, I'd say Cody is already thinking about next year. We need 3 new backs. Walsh, Murphy and Buckley are 100% safe. Im sorry but Holden and Pender don't inspire confidence in me and Joyce had a few good years but had a bad one this year.
If Tipp keep the same intensity for next year no one will come close to them. We need to build for maybe winning the All Ireland in 3/4 years. Tipp will win a 3 in a row.
We need to build a new team. Rob Lennon CB. Maybe move Cillian Buckley to full back. JJ worked a treat there why can't Buckley.
Luke Scanlon Midfield with Fogarty. We can't rely on Fennelly to be fit unfortunately.
TJ, Walter and Richie Hogan
Ger Alyward, Fennelly and Kevin Kelly. We need skillful players like Kelly in the team. He did well yesterday. We need to feed the ball into the full forward line much better so players like Alyward and Kelly can shine.
Have players like Alan Murphy Richie leahy, Liam Blanchfield on the bench to bring on. Eoin Larkin might retire but if not he doesn't have the legs to play a full 70 mins.
Cody needs to change things. We won't win with the same panel and style of play.

I've seen a lot of folks on the various threads question why Cody didn't change things, well to be fair to him, he's known for hawling lads off if they are not performing but yesterday there were two things at play 1) we were taking on water all over the field especially the forwards who were letting the ball be cleared by the Tipp backs far to easy and 2) he looked to the bench and saw what? Not much! Nothing that would perform better or even to the level of that which was already playing.

A key contributor to KKs problems are well documented on these websites numerous times, but the main one is the poor performance of our U-21 system. The minors are producing decent enough minors but they are lost to the game after that, and those that make U-21 have falling back in grade and class. Beaten by West Meath this year, hammered by Wexford last year. By Dublin the year before. We are a joke at U-21 level. Our poor management of players at this level means that Cody has too much to do to bring the up to senior standard which takes years. Tipp had a number of young players on yesterday who slotted in easily to senior as have Waterford, yet we make excuses for ours.

I've said it before numerous times here. Cody needs to pick his best next best 20 players (outside of yesterday's starting 15, but including Blanchfield and Kelly) and seriously push them from November of this year. Play them in the league and Walsh cup. They need to toughen up to intercounty grade hurling and we can't wait until they are 26. Tipp have managed this as have Waterford. So what if we get relegated, we need to hot house our upcoming talent. Then join them to the remaining starting 13 from last Sunday come the league relegation play off next April. We need to find new players badly - we need new options for 3;4;5;6;9;10:13;14.
I'd like to know who's out there from the various clubs that could be brought in? Across the three grades.

johnconnors

Small things can change the course of a game. Ye breached our defence a couple of times and another day, goals might have followed. Eoin Murphy brought off some tremendous saves that prevented a few more goals for us. That's how games can unfold. Kilkenny have not become a bad team overnight. Nor has Brian Cody become a bad manager. By the law of averages, no team are going to keep on winning forever and no team will be losing forever. Kilkenny have a pool of experienced medal holders who I am sure will put everything back into the game that they got out of it.

One thing that I would like to compliment your players on, is their sportsmanship. Young Blanchfield shipped a heavy challenge from Ronan Maher but got to his feet immediately and continued to hurl. I think it was Richie Hogan, being surrounded by Tipp backs on the edge of the square, despite taking some hefty tackles, continued to stay on his feet and not, to use that phrase beloved by the pundits, ''play for a free''. Throughout the field, we saw several examples of this.

Looking forward to renewing rivalry in 2017

Topcat32

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Need to freshen things up during the next league campaign, one mistake Brian Cody made this year was not bringing enough lads through during the league other than James Maher and Lennon which I was surprised about and reckoned at the time the lack of squad depth may come back to haunt us later in the year. Need at least 4 or 5 next year as we may have one or two more retirements

Id be interested on opinions on who those 4 or 5 should be.

Conor Doheny, Jason Cleere, Evan Cody and Tommy Walsh are defenders that seem to be highly rated by underage management but have had their problems at times, Luke Scanlon is a good talent at midfield, then in the forwards Sean Morrisey, John Walsh and Alan Murphy look promising. Next year is likely a year too early for Richie Leahy. Anybody else who people would like to see get a run.

Dionysis

johnconnors wrote: »

Small things can change the course of a game. Ye breached our defence a couple of times and another day, goals might have followed. Eoin Murphy brought off some tremendous saves that prevented a few more goals for us. That's how games can unfold. Kilkenny have not become a bad team overnight. Nor has Brian Cody become a bad manager. By the law of averages, no team are going to keep on winning forever and no team will be losing forever. Kilkenny have a pool of experienced medal holders who I am sure will put everything back into the game that they got out of it.

One thing that I would like to compliment your players on, is their sportsmanship. Young Blanchfield shipped a heavy challenge from Ronan Maher but got to his feet immediately and continued to hurl. I think it was Richie Hogan, being surrounded by Tipp backs on the edge of the square, despite taking some hefty tackles, continued to stay on his feet and not, to use that phrase beloved by the pundits, ''play for a free''. Throughout the field, we saw several examples of this.

Looking forward to renewing rivalry in 2017

One thing springs to mind from your thread. Only three of the KK team have ever suffered defeat in an All-Ireland final - Larkin, Hogan and Reid. That's a lot of experience and bitterness that has just been taken onboard by this KK team.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

I've seen a lot of folks on the various threads question why Cody didn't change things, well to be fair to him, he's known for hawling lads off if they are not performing but yesterday there were two things at play 1) we were taking on water all over the field especially the forwards who were letting the ball be cleared by the Tipp backs far to easy and 2) he looked to the bench and saw what? Not much! Nothing that would perform better or even to the level of that which was already playing.

A key contributor to KKs problems are well documented on these websites numerous times, but the main one is the poor performance of our U-21 system. The minors are producing decent enough minors but they are lost to the game after that, and those that make U-21 have falling back in grade and class. Beaten by West Meath this year, hammered by Wexford last year. By Dublin the year before. We are a joke at U-21 level. Our poor management of players at this level means that Cody has too much to do to bring the up to senior standard which takes years. Tipp had a number of young players on yesterday who slotted in easily to senior as have Waterford, yet we make excuses for ours.

I've said it before numerous times here. Cody needs to pick his best next best 20 players (outside of yesterday's starting 15, but including Blanchfield and Kelly) and seriously push them from November of this year. Play them in the league and Walsh cup. They need to toughen up to intercounty grade hurling and we can't wait until they are 26. Tipp have managed this as have Waterford. So what if we get relegated, we need to hot house our upcoming talent. Then join them to the remaining starting 13 from last Sunday come the league relegation play off next April. We need to find new players badly - we need new options for 3;4;5;6;9;10:13;14.
I'd like to know who's out there from the various clubs that could be brought in? Across the three grades.

I could be wrong but wasn't this approach taken with the Intermediate team this year

Also there is a bit of a chicken and egg thing with the under 21's in that part of the reason that we are struggling at Under 21 level is that our 19 to 21 year olds have found it very hard to get on the Senior panel and are going up against players who have National League and championship seasons and have gone through full Senior team training regimes

sasta le

Cody involved at Kilkenny underage would be a good thing

dubcat51

Look with 42 minutes gone we were up by 2.as cody says always its on the day.glway should have beaten tipp.yet now tipp are the greatest thing since sliced bread.they won and deserved to win.but writing us off and tipp foe 3 in a row is crazy.

As for yesterdayy I was disapointed that jackie wasnt brought on for pender.for sure he would have been better on the day.look forward to next year supporting this wonderfull team.

Faugheen

This thing about Jackie Tyrell has to stop.

His legs are gone at this level. When Pender was out, Rob Lennon was preferred to him. This lark about an experienced man for the big occasion is nonsense. He can't hack it at this level anymore and this was evident last season. He would have been roasted out there yesterday.

I know I sound like I don't rate the guy at all, but it's far from true. He was class for us in his day and he owes us nothing, but just unfortunately his day is now gone. It happens to the best of them - Henry, Tommy Walsh, Eddie Brennan et al. Only one I can remember who would have been able to keep going is JJ Delaney.

MfMan

Dionysis wrote: »

I've seen a lot of folks on the various threads question why Cody didn't change things, well to be fair to him, he's known for hawling lads off if they are not performing but yesterday there were two things at play 1) we were taking on water all over the field especially the forwards who were letting the ball be cleared by the Tipp backs far to easy and 2) he looked to the bench and saw what? Not much! Nothing that would perform better or even to the level of that which was already playing.

I the only one that thinks KK actually had a better bench than Tipp yesterday? For sure Jason Forde came on and made an impact, but lads like Lennon, Lester Ryan, Richie Power, JonJo Farrell, Tyrell, etc. have all had good spells for KK. It's simply astounding that Cody didn't try to make some change in defence and trust his subs a bit more.

Realt Dearg Sec

MfMan wrote: »

I the only one that thinks KK actually had a better bench than Tipp yesterday? For sure Jason Forde came on and made an impact, but lads like Lennon, Lester Ryan, Richie Power, JonJo Farrell, Tyrell, etc. have all had good spells for KK. It's simply astounding that Cody didn't try to make some change in defence and trust his subs a bit more.

Presume you meant John power. But the jars you listed are all forwards bar Tyrrell and Lennon. Tyrrell, honestly, hasn't the legs for it anymore, and in all probability Cody didn't want one of his greatest servant's last experience of playing for Kilkenny being a runaround by a really excellent full forward line. Lennon did come on, probably too late, but he could only replace one player, when there were five backs not up to it on the day. And he didn't set the world alight himself. We were goosed, I just don't see the point in blaming Cody for the lack of defensive talent on the day. Hope he stays around for the difficult work of another rebuild. From what we know of him, I think that's more likely than not.

dubcat51

Cant see how jackie wouls have been worse than pender on sunday.he was the only direct sub for the full back line.also I think joyce has got unfair critisicm on sunday.dont remember bonner maher doing much.

dastardly00

Regarding Jackie, I agree with those who have said that his legs are gone.

The only scenario I could imagine where Jackie would have been brought is if someone in our full-back line was being out-muscled from a Tipp forward.

tbiggertycome

dastardly00 wrote: »

Regarding Jackie, I agree with those who have said that his legs are gone.

The only scenario I could imagine where Jackie would have been brought is if someone in our full-back line was being out-muscled from a Tipp forward.

Which they were all day the normally imperious Paul Murphy was getting taken apart for the puck outs in the first half in particular as he was right in front of me. We didn't bring any bite or aggression to our game in defence and you can say what you like about Jackie and his legs but he would have brought a physical presence which we needed he would have brought experience and leadership. This Jackie doesn't have the legs anymore thing was proven to be crap for me anyway when I was talking to one of our players last night he couldn't believe Jackie wasn't starting on Sunday. He said he was going so well over the last month. I'd heard this before the team was named but in such a roundabout way you wouldn't be sure it's true but the player told be last night said every forward that went in on him for the last few weeks got taken apart.

As another lad pointed out to me there wasn't 1 yellow card and to be honest the only incident that deserved one from our players was a challenge from Wally. We've been accused of playing "over to the edge" for years which I never thought we did but we were always very close to it which is where you need to be. We were so far from the edge on Sunday our lads wouldn't have been able to see it with binoculars. I'd say there wasn't a Tipp player in Thurles last night with a bruise. I'm not saying we should be going out to hurt opposition players but Jesus these lads need to get a bit more physical and intense with their opposite number let them know their in for a tough day when that ball comes in.

Anyway rant over.

Powerhouse

dubcat51 wrote: »

Look with 42 minutes gone we were up by 2.as cody says always its on the day.glway should have beaten tipp.yet now tipp are the greatest thing since sliced bread.they won and deserved to win.but writing us off and tipp foe 3 in a row is crazy.

As for yesterdayy I was disapointed that jackie wasnt brought on for pender.for sure he would have been better on the day.look forward to next year supporting this wonderfull team.

Anyone writing anyone else off is foolish but taking solace from being two up after the goal is naïve. The Kilkenny forwards could not score a point from play in the entire second half. If searching for reasons not to be written off I would steer clear of last Sunday.

Galway should have beaten Tipp? Well, if imagining alternative worlds is your thing Waterford should have beaten Kilkenny too. You can't have it both ways.

Topcat32

Powerhouse wrote: »

Anyone writing anyone else off is foolish but taking solace from being two up after the goal is naïve. The Kilkenny forwards could not score a point from play in the entire second half. If searching for reasons not to be written off I would steer clear of last Sunday.

Galway should have beaten Tipp? Well, if imagining alternative worlds is your thing Waterford should have beaten Kilkenny too. You can't have it both ways.

Kilkenny still scored 2-20 to be fair, a lot from frees but they were genuine frees. Tipp did the same as 2010 and tackled very hard in the half back line, were prepared to give frees away to stop Kilkenny running into space. With James Maher and Ger Aylward to come back, possibly a fitter Eoin Larkin and fingers crossed Michael Fennelly to come back id be confident that we will have forwards capable of winning most matches next year. Its midfield and in the backs which is the worry, where 6 of the 8 Kilkenny players were comfortably beaten by their men on Sunday.

I think the point about Galway beating Tipp was more related to the commentary that Tipp will automatically dominate in the next few years, nobody has said that Kilkenny didnt need a bit of luck to beat Waterford

Powerhouse

Topcat32 wrote: »

I think the point about Galway beating Tipp was more related to the commentary that Tipp will automatically dominate in the next few years, nobody has said that Kilkenny didnt need a bit of luck to beat Waterford

Yes, but a team almost losing a match they ultimately won does not mean anything. Kilkenny won the 2014 All Ireland title after two replays and a two point semi-final win against Limerick which almost brought them down. With a bounce of the ball the might have lost any of three games. They won the following year's All Ireland nonetheless.

Topcat32

Powerhouse wrote: »

Yes, but a team almost losing a match they ultimately won does not mean anything. Kilkenny won the 2014 All Ireland title after two replays and a two point semi-final win against Limerick which almost brought them down. With a bounce of the ball the might have lost any of three games. They won the following year's All Ireland nonetheless.

Thats why I used the word automatically. What the Galway match suggests is that on a given day and under the right conditions Tipp can be beaten which is true of almost all teams. There has been some posts here that have stated that Tipp will win 3 in a row which while possible seems to be premature.

unrealtime

Serious over analysis here. We lost one match in the championship, were top of the league, scored 2-20 in the final, led in the second half, and were missing all stars and hurlers of the year. We have not gone away.

I would see Rob Lennon, James Maher and Ger Aylward coming in to the team. Richie Leahy and John Walsh could make their mark too. Mick Fennelly could come back also. The future looks bright to me. We could very well add to the 4 Titles already won this decade -a tremendous achievement. We are still good enough.

Justice for the individual

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Which they were all day the normally imperious Paul Murphy was getting taken apart for the puck outs in the first half in particular as he was right in front of me. We didn't bring any bite or aggression to our game in defence and you can say what you like about Jackie and his legs but he would have brought a physical presence which we needed he would have brought experience and leadership. This Jackie doesn't have the legs anymore thing was proven to be crap for me anyway when I was talking to one of our players last night he couldn't believe Jackie wasn't starting on Sunday. He said he was going so well over the last month. I'd heard this before the team was named but in such a roundabout way you wouldn't be sure it's true but the player told be last night said every forward that went in on him for the last few weeks got taken apart.

As another lad pointed out to me there wasn't 1 yellow card and to be honest the only incident that deserved one from our players was a challenge from Wally. We've been accused of playing "over to the edge" for years which I never thought we did but we were always very close to it which is where you need to be. We were so far from the edge on Sunday our lads wouldn't have been able to see it with binoculars. I'd say there wasn't a Tipp player in Thurles last night with a bruise. I'm not saying we should be going out to hurt opposition players but Jesus these lads need to get a bit more physical and intense with their opposite number let them know their in for a tough day when that ball comes in.

Anyway rant over.

Throughout this championship I thought Paul Murphy was blanket covering for the the other 2 f/backs. In Thurles, on one occasion, he saw one of the f/backs out of position, and he was like a hen trying to get accross to cover the danger. This prevented Paul from doing his own job in the corner up to his own high standards, and therefore for the first time in a long time, he did not have a good year.

When things started to go wrong in the full back line, the obvious moves were to bring in Lennon at full back and Jackie at left back - that is why the subs are there, to come on when others are not having a good day. All the other teams are abrasive with their tackling in this area, but Kilkenny lack this attribute now and need full backs with the Noel Hickey attitude, and let the opposition forwards know they are not going to waltz though at will.

Also, I have always thought that Joyce is a more natural full back, and could be coached like JJ to take on that task, and Lennon slotted in at centre back. I'm sure Brian Cody (he carries the can after all, and he knows himself, when he gets things right, he gets the plaudits, but if things go badly wrong he too knows the finger is pointed at him) weighted up the way things were going, and waited, and waited, for the game to swing around in Kilkenny's favour, as often happens in matches.

By the 50th minute, Kilkenny were still playing flat and the rally we usually get from the team did not materialize. Damage limitation is useless, you may as well be beaten by 50 as 1 point (2nd place is only for the losers) and you must go for broke then and throw on the subs with instructions to go in hard (with intensity as Tipp did thoroughout all of the game). We knew Tipp were going to bring intensity to the game, as that was their mantra all week to the media.

Liam Blanchfield, tried thoughout the game (he set up the goal for Kevin Kelly) even though he was obviously targeted by the Tipp backs, and TJ and Richie were bottled up or fouled before they could set up other players or make a move themselves. Blanchfield should probably have been inter-switched with Colin Fennelly during the game, as Tipp had closed down the space in front of their full back thus preventing the acres of space Colin had enjoyed the last day against Waterford. Blanchfield is good in the air, and with Colin running off his shoulder would make up a lethal duo.

Kevin Kelly is an out and out finisher, and more work needs to be done to get him free of his marker as a tight game does not suit him. With a bit of luck he could have got 2 goals instead of the 1 gift he got. He can only get better with experience, but he must bring more aggression to his game as do most of the forwards - defense begins begins with the forwards - no easy ball cleared - no time to look up to pick their spot.

However, Kilkenny of all teams know, that if they drop their intensity levels in these crucial matches, the team drifts back into a flat mode, and it is very hard to up it again. They failed in this on Sunday, but there can be no doubt the hunger and appetite will be back in no time. Tipperary were the hungrier and wanted it more, as you would expect from an excellent team which was just off the top over the past 5 years.

Realt Dearg Sec

unrealtime wrote: »

Serious over analysis here. We lost one match in the championship, were top of the league, scored 2-20 in the final, led in the second half, and were missing all stars and hurlers of the year. We have not gone away.

I would see Rob Lennon, James Maher and Ger Aylward coming in to the team. Richie Leahy and John Walsh could make their mark too. Mick Fennelly could come back also. The future looks bright to me. We could very well add to the 4 Titles already won this decade -a tremendous achievement. We are still good enough.

Speaking of the league, does anyone think the defeat to Clare was already signposting where our problems were?

Tbiggertheycome, regarding Jackie, you might right, but I can only go on what I saw this year, and anytime I saw him play, he was a yard off the pace. Now maybe that changed during the summer and he wasn't getting a look in, but I've heard many the story of the lad who is going great in training.

Topcat32

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Speaking of the league, does anyone think the defeat to Clare was already signposting where our problems were?

Tbiggertheycome, regarding Jackie, you might right, but I can only go on what I saw this year, and anytime I saw him play, he was a yard off the pace. Now maybe that changed during the summer and he wasn't getting a look in, but I've heard many the story of the lad who is going great in training.

I think it was quite a similar loss, for years the idea was that to beat Kilkenny that you had to get the ball and run at the backs, Clare and Tipperary did the opposite and went very direct into the full forward line. Also Clare won almost every breaking ball or ball that went to ground and looked a far more hungry team. For me Lennon should have stayed in the team because the Kilkenny back line struggled under the high ball all year which is unusual for a Kilkenny team.

Realt Dearg Sec

Topcat32 wrote: »

I think it was quite a similar loss, for years the idea was that to beat Kilkenny that you had to get the ball and run at the backs, Clare and Tipperary did the opposite and went very direct into the full forward line. Also Clare won almost every breaking ball or ball that went to ground and looked a far more hungry team. For me Lennon should have stayed in the team because the Kilkenny back line struggled under the high ball all year which is unusual for a Kilkenny team.

Good point. Would also echo tbiggertheycome in saying we seriously lacked that whiff of sulphur. There wasn't the necessary bit of aggression from years gone by.

unrealtime

Paul Murphy has been sweeping across the full bACK LINE since JJ left. He is the best at that and will thrive again with something better inside him. One solid player would do and that could be Joyce though I don't know.

Jackie is finished and Brian has been trying to tell him so without actually saying it to him. He placed him in the team earlier in the championship and Jackie cried off. That was the end I thought for him. Jackie will no doubt retire now and can go in a dignified fashion.

citykat

I think it s academic who was or was not brought on. We were below par in too many positions to be in a position to win that game.
The fact we lost isn t a great shock to me. The level of apathy around town in the lead up to the game was something I have never experienced. This constant refrain of Kilkenny s dominance being bad for the game got in on people and I think got through to the players. A common attitude prior to the game was that if we win, good, but if we lose, sure what s the harm; somebody else gets a turn .
These players aren t living in a bubble. They re living among us. I think this apathy is in some way responsible for the performance last Sunday. One indicator for me was the amount of unforced errors by players throughout the team. I don t like singling out players because they were all making these errors but I think of Murphy fumbling the ball over the line, Pender passing a ball straight to a Tipp player; Forgarty missing a one handed spoon completely to name a few. There were many more.

Tipp were worthy winners on the day and maybe our best wouldn t have been good enough anyway. One thing's for sure though, we were a long way from our best last Sunday.

C__MC

One thing that was strange sunday was the amount of space tipp had upfront in comparison to KK. They type of ball being delivered in was also contrasting, kk went for a lot of route one ball while tipp played the spaces i.e bubbles goal.

KK will never go away, their tradition just wont allow it. This is codys' bigggest challenge yet. In 2004 and 10, cork and tipp lost their manager, this time will be different. Tipp peformance on sunday was up there with kk in 2008 and perhaps even better.

At least 3 backs need replacing, Joyce is way to slow for the center. In fairness the ball in was quality to Tipp forwards, but holden and prendergast were miles off their men. It was easy for Tipp, shooting practice with 15 to go.

2017 will be very interesting!

Topcat32

C__MC wrote: »

One thing that was strange sunday was the amount of space tipp had upfront in comparison to KK. They type of ball being delivered in was also contrasting, kk went for a lot of route one ball while tipp played the spaces i.e bubbles goal.

KK will never go away, their tradition just wont allow it. This is codys' bigggest challenge yet. In 2004 and 10, cork and tipp lost their manager, this time will be different. Tipp peformance on sunday was up there with kk in 2008 and perhaps even better.

At least 3 backs need replacing, Joyce is way to slow for the center. In fairness the ball in was quality to Tipp forwards, but holden and prendergast were miles off their men. It was easy for Tipp, shooting practice with 15 to go.

2017 will be very interesting!

Can't agree that Tipp performance was better than 2008, in 2008 it was over after 10 minutes, not sure why 2008 is relevent anyway to be honest.

It depends what you mean be being back, the team is more than capable of being competitive next year but winning 4 of the next 5 all Irelands as per the last two defeats you have mentioned looks unlikely

Whiplash85

Topcat32 wrote: »

Can't agree that Tipp performance was better than 2008, in 2008 it was over after 10 minutes, not sure why 2008 is relevent anyway to be honest.

It depends what you mean be being back, the team is more than capable of being competitive next year but winning 4 of the next 5 all Irelands as per the last two defeats you have mentioned looks unlikely

For Kilkennys All Ireland in 2008 read Tipp's All Ireland in 1989.

Hawkeye6

Average Age of Starting 15 on Sunday
Kilkenny 26.4
Tipperary 25.5

Cornerback1

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Average Age of Starting 15 on Sunday
Kilkenny 26.4
Tipperary 25.5

I know we can all get caught up in stats like this BUT that's interesting!!

Irish Beef

citykat wrote: »

I think it s academic who was or was not brought on. We were below par in too many positions to be in a position to win that game.
The fact we lost isn t a great shock to me. The level of apathy around town in the lead up to the game was something I have never experienced. This constant refrain of Kilkenny s dominance being bad for the game got in on people and I think got through to the players. A common attitude prior to the game was that if we win, good, but if we lose, sure what s the harm; somebody else gets a turn .
These players aren t living in a bubble. They re living among us. I think this apathy is in some way responsible for the performance last Sunday. One indicator for me was the amount of unforced errors by players throughout the team. I don t like singling out players because they were all making these errors but I think of Murphy fumbling the ball over the line, Pender passing a ball straight to a Tipp player; Forgarty missing a one handed spoon completely to name a few. There were many more.

Tipp were worthy winners on the day and maybe our best wouldn t have been good enough anyway. One thing's for sure though, we were a long way from our best last Sunday.

Have to agree with a lot that was said here. I think a lot of our players underperformed on sunday, you'll have days like that. I wouldn't be in any way critical of the players or Cody. And this talk of Tipp winning the next few All Irelands is complete garbage. You have to remember Kilkenny have won the last two ALL Irelands, its very hard to keep that kind of hunger year on year. If Kilkenny had started the game the way they started in the Waterford Replay, I think they would have been in with a chance of winning but they just didn't have that level of intensity on the day. Having said that we could do with a few more option in that backs. Would have liked to see Lennon stay on the starting 15 mid season and give him a bit of experience for the big day.

blackcard

citykat wrote: »

I think it s academic who was or was not brought on. We were below par in too many positions to be in a position to win that game.
The fact we lost isn t a great shock to me. The level of apathy around town in the lead up to the game was something I have never experienced. This constant refrain of Kilkenny s dominance being bad for the game got in on people and I think got through to the players. A common attitude prior to the game was that if we win, good, but if we lose, sure what s the harm; somebody else gets a turn .
These players aren t living in a bubble. They re living among us. I think this apathy is in some way responsible for the performance last Sunday. One indicator for me was the amount of unforced errors by players throughout the team. I don t like singling out players because they were all making these errors but I think of Murphy fumbling the ball over the line, Pender passing a ball straight to a Tipp player; Forgarty missing a one handed spoon completely to name a few. There were many more.

Tipp were worthy winners on the day and maybe our best wouldn t have been good enough anyway. One thing's for sure though, we were a long way from our best last Sunday.

I couldn't agree with you more. You would hardly know last week that we were about to play an all Ireland. There was no buzz around whatsoever. People have become blase about being in an all Ireland as if it is commonplace which indeed it has become. Plus you have all the talk about Kilkenny's dominance being bad for the game. Last year, the celebrations for winning lasted one day. Schools were getting bored of the cup being brought around. Sure that happened almost every year. When the players were being introduced last Sunday, there was only muted applause for the Kilkenny players compared to Tipp. All of this is bound to get through to the players. It is no surprise that we were flat this year. However it was pleasing to see so many at the homecoming. Hopefully we can get the hunger back next year. Not saying that we would have won this year but we would have put up a better performance

Charlie69

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Which they were all day the normally imperious Paul Murphy was getting taken apart for the puck outs in the first half in particular as he was right in front of me. We didn't bring any bite or aggression to our game in defence and you can say what you like about Jackie and his legs but he would have brought a physical presence which we needed he would have brought experience and leadership. This Jackie doesn't have the legs anymore thing was proven to be crap for me anyway when I was talking to one of our players last night he couldn't believe Jackie wasn't starting on Sunday. He said he was going so well over the last month. I'd heard this before the team was named but in such a roundabout way you wouldn't be sure it's true but the player told be last night said every forward that went in on him for the last few weeks got taken apart.

As another lad pointed out to me there wasn't 1 yellow card and to be honest the only incident that deserved one from our players was a challenge from Wally. We've been accused of playing "over to the edge" for years which I never thought we did but we were always very close to it which is where you need to be. We were so far from the edge on Sunday our lads wouldn't have been able to see it with binoculars. I'd say there wasn't a Tipp player in Thurles last night with a bruise. I'm not saying we should be going out to hurt opposition players but Jesus these lads need to get a bit more physical and intense with their opposite number let them know their in for a tough day when that ball comes in.

Anyway rant over.

Absolutely spot on, couldn't believe Jackie didn't get a run, he was going very well in training and as you say he would have brought a physical presence and a bit of leadership. He never had much pace anyway and wouldn't have tolerated the half back's and midfield leaving the full back line so exposed.

Listen Tipperary were superb and it's very possible that whatever Cody and his selectors tried on the day wouldn't have worked anyway, but to watch us lose our shape to that extent and get torn to shreds all day without trying to address the situation leaves me baffled to be honest.

Clonmel1000

The only talk honestly of Tipp winning the next few all Ireland's is from Kilkenny people trying to build up a siege mentality. People in Tipp are relieved that we finally put in a performance to beat our greatest rivals and the greatest team in the history of the game. There's no talk of domination of anything we are just relieved and happy to have won. I'd have absolutely no fear that KK and Tipp will be the teams to beat next year. Two colossus of the game.

fed up sick and tired

Motivator wrote: »

Some crazy decisions from the manager today. I think he's lost it.

Hogan - should have been taken off.

Joyce - got cleaned should have been gone at half time.

Prendergast - the less said the better.

Holden - cleaned.

Worst kk team for a long time, Cody has a job on his hands now. Tipp performance better than kk in 2008. Nice to see such a great team like tipp win like that today.

Motivator posts, but edited by rebel girl 15...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100903392&postcount=2470

Your motivational skills are required a lot more urgently, closer to home.

Bye.

mickmackey1

blackcard wrote: »

I couldn't agree with you more. You would hardly know last week that we were about to play an all Ireland. There was no buzz around whatsoever. People have become blase about being in an all Ireland as if it is commonplace which indeed it has become. Plus you have all the talk about Kilkenny's dominance being bad for the game. Last year, the celebrations for winning lasted one day. Schools were getting bored of the cup being brought around. Sure that happened almost every year. When the players were being introduced last Sunday, there was only muted applause for the Kilkenny players compared to Tipp. All of this is bound to get through to the players. It is no surprise that we were flat this year. However it was pleasing to see so many at the homecoming. Hopefully we can get the hunger back next year. Not saying that we would have won this year but we would have put up a better performance

Might be a fair point, but there didn't seem any shortage of motivation v Waterford in the semi. No evidence of apathy in the fightback the first day, and refused to give the starving Decies anything cheaply in the replay.

fyfe79

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Average Age of Starting 15 on Sunday
Kilkenny 26.4
Tipperary 25.5

Darren Gleeson in goal is 36 so he'd bring up the average a bit, I'd think. He might not be a starter next year.

minty81

Two main thoughts on Sunday.

Our half back line were constantly dragged up field following their markers which left huge gaps behind. Most un-kilkenny like. And i can't fathom why? Why are we following Bonner Maher and Dan Mccormack up field when neither are going to score long range points?
This left huge gaps for tipp to hit deliveries into.

Secondly the intensity and workrate of our forwards and midfield was way off our usual standard. We never laid a finger on them. Did any Tipp player wake up sore on Monday morning? I doubt it
Its very rare a team beats kilkenny in the tackle count. We were obliterated 54-36.
Our tackle count in both waterford games was 51 and 54.
Again not to have any pressure on their half backs clearing ball was most un-kilkenny like.

The two issues together created the perfect storm for our full back line to be hung out to dry

Hawkeye6

Good luck to the Kilkenny Senior and Intermediate Camogie Teams in the All-Ireland Finals versus Cork on Sunday in Croke Park.

This is where the genuine Kilkenny GAA supporter will be seen and where the Kilkenny teams has been starved of success. This time in contrast to the hurlers the shoe is on the other foot as Kilkenny will be aiming to win their first Senior title since 1994 against a dominant Cork side. The Intermediates will be trying to win their first title since 2008.

Its an opportunity for us all to show our support for Kilkenny teams regardless of historic success.

Orizio

What are you basing this on? One Minor/All-Ireland in the past five years - hardly suggestive that there is huge talent coming through for KK.

granturismo

blackcard wrote: »

... There was no buzz around whatsoever. People have become blase about being in an all Ireland as if it is commonplace which indeed it has become.... When the players were being introduced last Sunday, there was only muted applause for the Kilkenny players compared to Tipp. All of this is bound to get through to the play... . However it was pleasing to see so many at the homecoming....

Totally agree. The big screen on Sunday showed the noise levels in the stadium when both teams came onto the pitch, Tipp supporters were only a few decibels above Kilkenny's ( I think the difference was 2 dB) but an increase of 3 decibels is a doubling in loudness.

In recent years, Shefflin got a decent cheer when the teams were introduced, followed by Richie Hogan and Tommy Walsh, every other player go a muted response but never as bad as last Sunday.

A few years ago, the FAI planted supporters around stadia who would lead chants. Maybe the supporters club could do something similar. During the second half in particular, Tipp supporters started the 'TIPP, TIPP, TIPP ' chant after scores by both sides, it must have given their players a boost. Kilkenny supporters are vocal during a game but a chant has to raise our sides moral. Waterford supporters can chant 'WAT - ER - FORD' so there's no reason why Kilkenny supporters cant chant a 3 syllable chant or even 'CATS'.

Noise levels have been louder from Kilkenny supporters during final replays when there are more teenagers and younger kids in the stands due to lower ticket prices, they also get a chant going.

We had a teacher in the CBS during the 80s who wrote a few chants for the school team, one of them used the beat to an SS marching song, not the best choice in hindsight.

Even with the absence of a Kilkenny chant in Thurles, some of the players appreciated the supporters roars and support, they couldnt hear each other calling for the ball sometimes. I could feel the increased noise level sitting close to the pitch in Semple.

Sound from the stands doesnt seem to carry as far onto the pitch in Croke Park so maybe its time we started chanting like other supporters to rally our players.

Topcat32

Orizio wrote: »

What are you basing this on? One Minor/All-Ireland in the past five years - hardly suggestive that there is huge talent coming through for KK.

Well im not sure who you are replying too but I think its based on the minors of 2013, 2014 and 2015. In 2013 the team were leading a very good waterford team with about 10 minutes to go, in 2014 the minor team won the all ireland beating a highly rated Limerick team in the final and in 2015, Galway needed a replay to beat Kilkenny in the semi-final and then beat Tipp easily in the final. I think its a little foolish to think that if a minor team doesnt win the all ireland that it doesnt in many cases have the same amount of promosing players as the wining team

Also what indicates that we have good players coming through is the performance of the collages teams over those years, where Kierans Collage have dominated and CBS have been very strong

Topcat32

fyfe79 wrote: »

Darren Gleeson in goal is 36 so he'd bring up the average a bit, I'd think. He might not be a starter next year.

Id be suprised if he didnt start next year, his puckouts and distribution are excellent. He is looking his age a little bit but he is still a decent shotstopper. I think he would be a significant loss to Tipp when he goes.