Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

dubcat51

Which 3 players would you see making the matchday 26 for leinster semi final from all the players who might be tried this year. Mine are
1.richie leahy
2.chris bolger
3.jason cleere

brookville

I'd say more than 3 will make the 26.Two retirements will make room for two panel members but I reckon some of last year's 26 will do well to hold their places.

brookville

http://sportstalk.ie/10-kilkenny-hurlers-may-make-championship-debut-2017/

Realt Dearg Sec

Interesting lost, most notable for the absence of any serious full back prospect. Maher will almost certainly be making an appearance this year you'd expect, and I think he's going to be a huge addition as he develops.

Not sure I agree with all the talk of Buckley at full back. It's not that he couldn't do it, maybe he could I dunno, but it seems completely contrary to all of his instincts and strengths as a hurler to play that position, his pace, his forward threat, and his tendency to churn up space. He isn't really like JJ Delaney either, not least because he isn't as good a player.

brookville

The league will be interesting to see will he leave joey at 3 or who will he try although i do think joey got unfair criticism after the final.

Realt Dearg Sec

I'd need to watch the final again which I'm really not all that eager to do, but for me the problem all year was not so much that he's a terrible full back, it's more that if a team can isolate him he's susceptible to being turned. That only has to happen once or twice in a game and you can be completely banjacksed. He's just not great at minding the space in front of him the way his predecessors, JJ and Hickey, were. That's an awfully high bar, but essentially we are still lacking natural full backs in the county. (Actually there's not many in the whole sport right now, there a dying breed, but we've discussed that on this thread before I think.)

brookville

It's hard to name 3 top full backs in the country,and if galway had to beat tipp which they very nearly did the chances are joey would probably have two all stars because he was ok all year.Daithi burke is a very good full back who's not a great hurler but a strong tough sticky marker who doesn't give much away that's all ya really want from your full back

Cornerback1

Sweeper?????????

Realt Dearg Sec

Don't mention the war.

dubcat51

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Sweeper?????????

Dont .ention that word on here.never never never

kksaints

A sweeper could work if the player who is playing in the sweeper position is able to direct and pick out passes accurately to the forward line to make up for the reduction in players. A big problem with the sweeper system in hurling is that too often sweepers play the ball aimlessly forward and high which allows the opposition time to being their extra defender back to crowd out the attacker.

citykat

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Sweeper?????????

Think you've wandered into the wrong thread there.

brookville

I couldn't see us going with a sweeper but the last couple of years larkin had a free role and could pop up anywhere.He struggled last year to cover to ground he had covered in previous years.

mountgomery burns

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I'd need to watch the final again which I'm really not all that eager to do, but for me the problem all year was not so much that he's a terrible full back, it's more that if a team can isolate him he's susceptible to being turned. That only has to happen once or twice in a game and you can be completely banjacksed. He's just not great at minding the space in front of him the way his predecessors, JJ and Hickey, were. That's an awfully high bar, but essentially we are still lacking natural full backs in the county. (Actually there's not many in the whole sport right now, there a dying breed, but we've discussed that on this thread before I think.)

I think to be honest the quality of the players in full forward and of those delivering in the ball is more the issue than full backs. If a team has time to get the ball in, any of the lads you see in there now will make hay and it doesn't really matter who is in full back.

The quantity and quality of the ball to a player like Callanan was as much the issue as anything else.

danganabu

Far too much emphasis been put on FB, truth is that both corner backs were also cleaned out, the problem was the ball coming in, there was no pressure on the Tipp half back line and they had all the time in the world to pick out there man.

Topcat32

danganabu wrote: »

Far too much emphasis been put on FB, truth is that both corner backs were also cleaned out, the problem was the ball coming in, there was no pressure on the Tipp half back line and they had all the time in the world to pick out there man.

All true but not all the comments are based on the All Ireland final. In the league Semi Final some fairly ordinary balls into the full forward line caused mayhem. I think Joey Holden is a good hurler who will likely start next year but id prefer to see a physcially stronger player at full back. The Dathai Burke type of player who a couple of years ago would probably have played around midfield seems to be the most effective option at fullback.

danganabu

Topcat32 wrote: »

All true but not all the comments are based on the All Ireland final. In the league Semi Final some fairly ordinary balls into the full forward line caused mayhem. I think Joey Holden is a good hurler who will likely start next year but id prefer to see a physcially stronger player at full back. The Dathai Burke type of player who a couple of years ago would probably have played around midfield seems to be the most effective option at fullback.

Or the James Barry type fully agree though, the skillset required for FB has changed massively in the modern game.

Justice for the individual

brookville wrote: »

I couldn't see us going with a sweeper but the last couple of years larkin had a free role and could pop up anywhere.He struggled last year to cover to ground he had covered in previous years.

Could Mark Bergin fill that role?

Was it against Oulart The Ballagh he looked the part - all over the field and took his frees well. If you look at the old videos of Paddy Moran, he filled that role from midfield.

All left-handers too!

unrealtime

Best sweeper we ever had was Tommy Walsh in the full back line but never used there when senior. Paul Murphy could be number one sweeper now but what we need is a left full.

Village87

Kilkenny dont necessarily use a sweeper but over the last number of years they play a very defensive approach with midfielders and half forward line working all the way back to suffocate any space. This style was first brought into play when Kilkenny defeated Cork when going for 3 in a row, it stopped the so called "running game" Cork had success with.

Kilkenny used this tactic to great effect over the following 10 years, like a blanket defence in hurling, turnover possession, use the space and ball winners in the forwards

Noddy33

Village87 wrote: »

Kilkenny dont necessarily use a sweeper but over the last number of years they play a very defensive approach with midfielders and half forward line working all the way back to suffocate any space. This style was first brought into play when Kilkenny defeated Cork when going for 3 in a row, it stopped the so called "running game" Cork had success with.

Kilkenny used this tactic to great effect over the following 10 years, like a blanket defence in hurling, turnover possession, use the space and ball winners in the forwards

Agree with all of this. Kilkenny have never adapted a full on sweeper approach but have operated with a defensice tactic of one of the forwards dropping back deep to the half back line to help out when KK dont have the ball. The main difference here with the sweeper system to what KK have used is that this player then bursts his a$$ to get back up to the other end of pitch and ensure that the KK forwards are not completely outnumbered. In general the player tasked with this role was Larkin who played it to perfection and did all the often unnoticed work while nearly always chipping in with a few scores or assists.
What I can never understand about the sweeper system is the great praise the sweeper player generally always gets... dont get me wrong it takes great fitness and reading of the game to play this role but in essence this player is essentially marking nobody so if my team has a sweeper in place and that person is not clearing a mountain of ball then I would be querying our tactics as to if there a need for us to play the sweeper role!

unrealtime

Markham and Clare started this eons ago

blackcard

unrealtime wrote: »

Markham and Clare started this eons ago

It worked for Markham and Clare in a drawn championship match against KK in 2004. In the replay, Martin Comerford marked Markham making sure he wasn't free to act as sweeper meaning someone less proficient at the role had to play sweeper. It is often forgotten that a team with 14 players can decide who the free man is.

Cornerback1

People will always think of a sweeper playing in front of the full backs and rightly so.

What about this, especially if we are agreeing that the quality of ball going in was just as much as a problem as the isolation of our full back line?

Pulling the 2 corner forwards back into the half forward line/midfield to congest the middle third area and make sure the ball going in was not good - disrupt and harry etc.

I'm free to field any questions on this matter...

Realt Dearg Sec

Cornerback1 wrote: »

People will always think of a sweeper playing in front of the full backs and rightly so.

What about this, especially if we are agreeing that the quality of ball going in was just as much as a problem as the isolation of our full back line?

Pulling the 2 corner forwards back into the half forward line/midfield to congest the middle third area and make sure the ball going in was not good - disrupt and harry etc.

I'm free to field any questions on this matter...

I have no reason to think this wouldn't work but haven't we been doing a variation on this, on and off, for years? Larkin's role could probably be described in those terms, except that, as someone mentioned above, he wasn't solely expected to push back out the field, but also to drift forward and create scoring opportunities as well.

Also, to state the obvious, that does reduce your scoring threat, especially if there is to be a renewed emphasis (as many people would probably be hoping) on scoring goals, and having an eye for goal. That instinct has been lacking since Eddie Brennan retired. But of course it's all horses for courses, it depends on who you're playing against, but also what players you have at your disposal. I wouldn't have pulled Eddie out to congest the middle since that's putting a finely tuned Ferrari in a demolition derby, but no reason not to consider putting Walter Walsh into that kind of role and (assuming he continues to develop as we all think and hope he will) allowing Blanchfield to work with Aylward as a forward scoring threat or something like that?

Cornerback1

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I have no reason to think this wouldn't work but haven't we been doing a variation on this, on and off, for years? Larkin's role could probably be described in those terms, except that, as someone mentioned above, he wasn't solely expected to push back out the field, but also to drift forward and create scoring opportunities as well.

Also, to state the obvious, that does reduce your scoring threat, especially if there is to be a renewed emphasis (as many people would probably be hoping) on scoring goals, and having an eye for goal. That instinct has been lacking since Eddie Brennan retired. But of course it's all horses for courses, it depends on who you're playing against, but also what players you have at your disposal. I wouldn't have pulled Eddie out to congest the middle since that's putting a finely tuned Ferrari in a demolition derby, but no reason not to consider putting Walter Walsh into that kind of role and (assuming he continues to develop as we all think and hope he will) allowing Blanchfield to work with Aylward as a forward scoring threat or something like that?

I agree he was doing it to a certain extent but was it not more of a free role i.e. picking up loose ball and using it wisely rather than in a defensive formation?

I think, in terms of the All Ireland Final and as a lot of people have said here already, the quality of ball coming in was a huge part of the problem. If we had 2 extra bodies in that middle third, whether it be on puck outs of they chase back when the opposition had the ball maybe.

If we don't look at protecting our full back line, we must try and stop good ball coming in. We can do this by overloading this middle third and by weight of numbers, have a better chance to getting any break ball.

Now I do understand the problem of lack of bodies in the full forward line as a result - maybe they will have to bust a gut to get up and down from mid-field. Goals are hard to come by but we'll need some sort of plan as we don't seem to have defensive cover!

Realt Dearg Sec

Cornerback1 wrote: »

I agree he was doing it to a certain extent but was it not more of a free role i.e. picking up loose ball and using it wisely rather than in a defensive formation?

I think, in terms of the All Ireland Final and as a lot of people have said here already, the quality of ball coming in was a huge part of the problem. If we had 2 extra bodies in that middle third, whether it be on puck outs of they chase back when the opposition had the ball maybe.

If we don't look at protecting our full back line, we must try and stop good ball coming in. We can do this by overloading this middle third and by weight of numbers, have a better chance to getting any break ball.

Now I do understand the problem of lack of bodies in the full forward line as a result - maybe they will have to bust a gut to get up and down from mid-field. Goals are hard to come by but we'll need some sort of plan as we don't seem to have defensive cover!

I agree with all of that. I don't think it would have to be a new system necessarily, but it would work well against a sweeper-using team. But we usually beat teams with sweepers anyway. What it all boils down to is will it beat Tipp? There's a lot involved in beating Tipp but stopping Seamus Callinan being fed like a fatted pig might be a good start alright!

Cornerback1

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I agree with all of that. I don't think it would have to be a new system necessarily, but it would work well against a sweeper-using team. But we usually beat teams with sweepers anyway. What it all boils down to is will it beat Tipp? There's a lot involved in beating Tipp but stopping Seamus Callinan being fed like a fatted pig might be a good start alright!

A few games now in the Walsh Cup to experiment and the league is a few weeks away also. Great chance for the management to run the eye over players and systems etc.

I agree, Tipp will be the team to beat. I sense a 'everybody is against us' attitude in terms of Callinan not getting POTY so M Ryan will have them well prepared again this year.

Village87

In regards beating Tipp, i agree with the above. Aside from that the quality of ball which was excellent i thought our full back line were awful. Shane Prendergast skill level and distribution were of a very low standard compared to Cathal Barrett. Excellent on the ball and great clearance for the goal.
Joey Holden, ok he was under pressure, but my god how can you leave a player of the quality of Callanan untouched for 70mins, was almost like Holden was playing touch hurling, didn't even contest one ball or take a chance to get in front for one. Most club hurlers in Kilkenny would have done better.

Paul Murphy had a poor day too, like a lot of the current Kilkenny team, great athlete but hurling leaves him down at times, missed pick ups, clearances. Missing the likes of JJ and Tommy around him and under pressure when teams go 15 on 15.

As stated earlier half forward line prob didn't work hard enough and Fogarty was very poor midfield, watched the game over xmas was almost like he wasnt there. Same issue again, doesnt have it in the wrists

TheNap

I heard Cathal Kenny is transferring to a club in Dublin

Topcat32

Village87 wrote: »

In regards beating Tipp, i agree with the above. Aside from that the quality of ball which was excellent i thought our full back line were awful. Shane Prendergast skill level and distribution were of a very low standard compared to Cathal Barrett. Excellent on the ball and great clearance for the goal.
Joey Holden, ok he was under pressure, but my god how can you leave a player of the quality of Callanan untouched for 70mins, was almost like Holden was playing touch hurling, didn't even contest one ball or take a chance to get in front for one. Most club hurlers in Kilkenny would have done better.

Paul Murphy had a poor day too, like a lot of the current Kilkenny team, great athlete but hurling leaves him down at times, missed pick ups, clearances. Missing the likes of JJ and Tommy around him and under pressure when teams go 15 on 15.

As stated earlier half forward line prob didn't work hard enough and Fogarty was very poor midfield, watched the game over xmas was almost like he wasnt there. Same issue again, doesnt have it in the wrists

Very harsh comments on both Murphy and Fogarty, in my opinion Murphy is an excellent hurler who gets caught out a couple a times a season by looking to play from the front, Fogarty was one of the better players in the All Ireland final and there was nothing wrong with his wrists when he got that equaliser against Waterford in the Semi-final, they are really important players for Kilkenny over the next 5 years

Really have to wonder what your motivation is for having a go at those two players in particular.

Village87

Agreed they are massive players to lead the team and I suppose I took the comment "as good as your last game" literally. Just my overall opionion of the cailibre of player Kilkenny now have. More athletes than hurlers. Paul Murphy has been a great player for Kilkenny, good man marker but I do believe he lacks the skills of Tommy,Jackie,JJ, the 2 Mahers, Cathal Barrett etc. Fogarty was poor by his standards in the final and also the semi final. Couldn't handle Gleason and needs Fennelly around him. Interesting year ahead and I hope these 2 can replace the great void of leaders that have left.

Topcat32

Village87 wrote: »

Agreed they are massive players to lead the team and I suppose I took the comment "as good as your last game" literally. Just my overall opionion of the cailibre of player Kilkenny now have. More athletes than hurlers. Paul Murphy has been a great player for Kilkenny, good man marker but I do believe he lacks the skills of Tommy,Jackie,JJ, the 2 Mahers, Cathal Barrett etc. Fogarty was poor by his standards in the final and also the semi final. Couldn't handle Gleason and needs Fennelly around him. Interesting year ahead and I hope these 2 can replace the great void of leaders that have left.

Totally disagree with that to be honest, when it comes to skill for me Murphy is better than Padraig Maher and Jackie. Conor Fogarty was good last year and was excellent in the two in a row all ireland wins, as for Barrett, who you seem to have a huge amount of time for as a Kilkenny fan, he is a great player but even he struggled at times in the earlier part of the championship and a little against Galway.

danganabu

Just my tuppence worth, Paul Murphy has been the best corner back in the country over the last 5 years and Cathal Barrett was the best corner back in the country last year.

KK have gaps to fill but Paul Murphy most certainly aint one of them.

danganabu

Cornerback1 wrote: »

A few games now in the Walsh Cup to experiment and the league is a few weeks away also. Great chance for the management to run the eye over players and systems etc.

I agree, Tipp will be the team to beat. I sense a 'everybody is against us' attitude in terms of Callinan not getting POTY so M Ryan will have them well prepared again this year.

The vast majority of Tipp people felt that Paraic Maher should have gotten POTY not Seamie and tbh I doubt that the players really care about it.

Cornerback1

danganabu wrote: »

The vast majority of Tipp people felt that Paraic Maher should have gotten POTY not Seamie and tbh I doubt that the players really care about it.

I thought Pauric Maher should have got it also. He was consistent all year.

dubcat51

The sideline were are worse performers in the final.they watched on far to long without making a change
Players have bad games and management had a bad one last september.whether you agree or not about JT coming in (something had to be done).even the best gaa manager ever can have a bad day.

Twiceasnice97

I have not watched the game back but surely the biggest issue for kilkenny is walsh and buckley not being good defenders.
they are good hurlers when they are on the ball but once they are forced to turn back towards their own goal and get in hooks bl;ocks and tackles they are not as keen.
walsh in particular seems to me to be way too keen to get forward which leaves big holes behind him.

Topcat32

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

I have not watched the game back but surely the biggest issue for kilkenny is walsh and buckley not being good defenders.
they are good hurlers when they are on the ball but once they are forced to turn back towards their own goal and get in hooks bl;ocks and tackles they are not as keen.
walsh in particular seems to me to be way too keen to get forward which leaves big holes behind him.

Buckley is well able to tackle and is actually very good at blocks in particular, he could be more agressive at times. Padraig is certainly not as physical as Tommy but he is such a good hurler that I dont see him as being a problem, I think he gets stuck in pretty well and will improve at this. The problem for me is that over the last few years Brian Hogan and Jackie Tyrell have gone from the team and there hasnt been many players in hurling as physically strong as them.

Its amasing, one bad loss and people are questioning Paul Murphy, Conor Fogarty, Padraig Walsh and Cillian Buckley, players who have been generally excellent over the last few years and have brought Kilkenny to 3 all Ireland finals in a row, winning two of them

Realt Dearg Sec

Topcat32 wrote: »

Its amasing, one bad loss and people are questioning Paul Murphy, Conor Fogarty, Padraig Walsh and Cillian Buckley, players who have been generally excellent over the last few years and have brought Kilkenny to 3 all Ireland finals in a row, winning two of them

They're also all All-Star recipients except for Fogarty who was blatantly robbed of one a couple of years back. That's not the be-all and end-all of course, but it's worth remembering that Brian Hogan was once regarded as a bit of a risky proposition at centre back, not likely to nail down a place and basically just a stand-in when Tennyson was injured. We all know how that turned out.

My only point in that is that there is plenty of room for development in Padraig Walsh. Paul Murphy is the best corner back in the country over the last five years, so I wouldn't fear for him. I would see Buckley as someone whose strength lies in using his pace/fitness rather than dropping back but he has been extremely effective at wing back doing that. I certainly wouldn't see him as being any kind of weak link. Fogarty has been a crucial and underappreciated role-player in the team for three years now, the final in 2016 passed him by but again I would see him as a crucial player for the future (he's only 26).

dubcat51

Topcat32 wrote: »

Buckley is well able to tackle and is actually very good at blocks in particular, he could be more agressive at times. Padraig is certainly not as physical as Tommy but he is such a good hurler that I dont see him as being a problem, I think he gets stuck in pretty well and will improve at this. The problem for me is that over the last few years Brian Hogan and Jackie Tyrell have gone from the team and there hasnt been many players in hurling as physically strong as them.

Its amasing, one bad loss and people are questioning Paul Murphy, Conor Fogarty, Padraig Walsh and Cillian Buckley, players who have been generally excellent over the last few years and have brought Kilkenny to 3 all Ireland finals in a row, winning two of them

Agree topcat,we won 2015 with the same defenders.as I said in earlier post management were poor on the sideline last september.

droppingball

Half back seems to be Padraig Walshs best position and he has been excellent for us and is contributing 2 points a game, however it is a worry that he is leaving holes when he attacks.

We get away with it against the likes of Waterford or other teams who have less forwards inside. But against Tipperary and the threat that there inside line provides we should have sat way deeper and offered more protection. Padraig was driving forward as we chased the game and things got worse from there but I for one don't think Cody will panic and he will look to maybe find a corner back and centre back.

Don't think he will overhaul the entire back line or play Buckley at full back as a few suggest, I think he will stick with Joey at full back to start with but try a few in there as the league goes on. It will be a clean slate with Cody anyway he knows the boys will be hurting and will go harder this year and he won't be ruling anyone out or in just yet.

We are in a good position for the year ahead with plenty writing us off and if we experiment in the league, avoid relegation but find one or two I would be happy with that. With TJ, Richie, Aylward, Walter up front and a better defensive game plan we will be right in the mix.

Village87

Padraig Walsh is an exceptional hurler for Kilkenny, good in the air, aggressive, great striker both sides. Kilkennys best back by a long way.
Kilkenny need him in the backs but a great option in the forwards, wrists to match the best forwards in the country such as bubbles, R Hogan, TJ, Joe Canning, not sure can we afford to do this though.
Apart from Riche and TJ Kilkenny lack natural forwards. Walter Walsh, Colin Fennelly, Liam Blanchfield, Jonjo Farrell are not big scorers, they are great athletes and workers and every forward line needs two of these but players like Riche Hogan, TJ,Bubbles can make the ball sing and these players get the big scores in the big games, IMO Padraig Walsh can provide this

Topcat32

Village87 wrote: »

Padraig Walsh is an exceptional hurler for Kilkenny, good in the air, aggressive, great striker both sides. Kilkennys best back by a long way.
Kilkenny need him in the backs but a great option in the forwards, wrists to match the best forwards in the country such as bubbles, R Hogan, TJ, Joe Canning, not sure can we afford to do this though.
Apart from Riche and TJ Kilkenny lack natural forwards. Walter Walsh, Colin Fennelly, Liam Blanchfield, Jonjo Farrell are not big scorers, they are great athletes and workers and every forward line needs two of these but players like Riche Hogan, TJ,Bubbles can make the ball sing and these players get the big scores in the big games, IMO Padraig Walsh can provide this

Ger Aylward is a natural forward, as is John Walsh and Kevin Kelly. Colin Fennelly is capable of scoring heavily on his best form and Walter has a good scoring record. Its too early to say Blanchfield will not score heavily at intercounty level. I think we did seriously miss Aylwards speed last year allright and with him back in the team and hopefully John Walsh to provide further options there should be a nice balance to the forwards next year.

I think TJ and Richie should stay in the forwards next year whatever the circumstances, the tactic of bringing them back into midfield ultimately worked against Kilkenny.

dubcat51

Padraig walsh has put up some great scores playing for tullaroan this year but I would keep him where he is.we still scored 2-20 in the final (couls have been a few pts more if we wernt going for goals).really looking forward to this year qith do many writing us off.

Village87

I am going on last years All Ireland squad, id love to see these young players step up and Ger Aylward back in contention.

unrealtime

Is there any chance Ger and James Maher will be back?

brookville

Both played with their respective clubs at the end of last year so both should be available later in the year.They shouldn't be rushed back but both will be big additions if they can reproduce the form they had

suirway

Any dates on the rounds for the local senior/inter/junior leagues??

wingbacknr5

suirway wrote: »

Any dates on the rounds for the local senior/inter/junior leagues??

Didn't see anything published yet but the first round of league championship games in all grades is usually the second weekend of April.

Junior all county league normally starts on the second or third weekend of March.