Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

deadybai

That was a very poor performance. There's no real threat in our attack. Tj and Hogan tried hard but 2 isn't enough . I'd be very worried we don't seem to have the edge to create a clear cut goal chance any more

dzer2

ah lads Waterford took everything man or ball they wont get away with that on a faster pitch and a decent ref

mullinr2

deadybai wrote: »

That was a very poor performance. There's no real threat in our attack. Tj and Hogan tried hard but 2 isn't enough . I'd be very worried we don't seem to have the edge to create a clear cut goal chance any more

Completely agree. Where is the skill level of the kilkenny forwards, apart from Hogan and Reid. I think kevin kelly is skillful so hopefully he will start more thisyear

Deise_2012

dzer2 wrote: »

ah lads Waterford took everything man or ball they wont get away with that on a faster pitch and a decent ref

We've had plenty of those days against ye. Also on a faster pitch our forwards will leave yer defenders for dead I reckon ;)

Topcat32

I thought it was a decent match for this time of year, Waterford played fairly well, Kilkenny were ok. The lack of goal threat was worrying but I think from the time the team was picked it was clear the forwards didnt have a lot of pace.

While not being overly tested, Conor O Shea did well, Pat Lyng was good, Ollie Walsh had some good moments. Padraig Walsh played well but I could see him making the same slip for the goal again, Paul Murphy got on loads of ball but his use of it was poor, I think it was definitely a better performance than the first league match last year.

brookville

I thought our backs started off all over the place but we got to grips in the 2nd half and could of snatched a draw but waterford deserved their win.We didn't create a goal chance which is a worry.
Pat lyng tried hard and conor o shea done ok which were the positives

Topcat32

mullinr2 wrote: »

Completely agree. Where is the skill level of the kilkenny forwards, apart from Hogan and Reid. I think kevin kelly is skillful so hopefully he will start more thisyear

Not like you to be so downbeat about things, that been said the forward line picked lacks pace and goal scoring ability, early to write off the likes of Blanchfield, Lyng or Morissey tho. I think Jonjo struggles against Waterford and Cody doesnt really see him as a championship starter anyway. A fully fit Walter Walsh, Colin Fennelly, Ger Aylward and maybe Kevin Kelly and Chris Bolger will hopefully help things

I think this will be a difficult league for us, but we may actually learn more from it in a positive way than the years when we won it.

usualstripes

dzer2 wrote: »

ah lads Waterford took everything man or ball they wont get away with that on a faster pitch and a decent ref

Eoin Murphy very good today
Conor o shea - solid enough but maybe short of pace
Padraig walsh - decent apart from the slip
Joey holden - all over the place for the 1st 50 mins - needs to get out 1st an stay out 1st
Joyce, Buckley and Paul Murphy slow with the 1st touch
Ollie walsh decent today and was a little bit unlucky to be pulled ashore as paddy deegan didn't improve matters
Conor Fogarty ok but a lot of our lads not quick enough in possession and getting caught leaving off the ball
Pat Lyng decent started slow
TJ needs to be on the wing
Sean morrissey needs to be better
John joe was horsed out of it and 1st touch too slow
Richie in and out
Blanchfield strong but needs to get more pace
Richie leahy and walter definitely improved things when introduced
Overall we didn't seem to be able to carve out anygoal chances
Our half and full forward line were bullied out of it for large parts of the match
TJ really needs to be on the wing to be more effective and to bring more lads into the game.
Possibly Richie leahy on the other side with walter in the centre.
We need more pace in the full forward line but maybe it's too early to be overly harsh but definitely need to up all sides of the game, from 1st touch to delivery and bringing other players into the game

usualstripes

Team v clare???

Eoin Murphy
Paul Murphy
Padraig walsh
Joey/ conor o she's
Kieran joyce
Cilian Buckley
Conor Fogarty
Lester ryan
Ollie walsh
Richie leahy
Walter
TJ
Richie hogan
John joe
Liam blanchfield

What's the story with luke scanlon, john walsh and kevin kelly?
I know ger aylward is probably a bit away as is Colin fennelly
Pat Lyng may also be an option at half forward as would be james maher and push leahy to the corner but leahy needs space

brookville

usualstripes wrote: »

Team v clare???

Eoin Murphy
Paul Murphy
Padraig walsh
Joey/ conor o she's
Kieran joyce
Cilian Buckley
Conor Fogarty
Lester ryan
Ollie walsh
Richie leahy
Walter
TJ
Richie hogan
John joe
Liam blanchfield

What's the story with luke scanlon, john walsh and kevin kelly?
I know ger aylward is probably a bit away as is Colin fennelly
Pat Lyng may also be an option at half forward as would be james maher and push leahy to the corner but leahy needs space

Lester ryan will likely miss the whole league he got his appendix out yesterday
Kevin kelly has a hamstring injury and he has a big game with his college next week so I'd say that's why he want available.
Hopefully pat lyngs injury isn't to serious and he can play next week which is probably a must win game
John walsh played for his college mid week so probably just has to get up to match fitness
I think oillie walsh deserves another run while I'd also like to see leahy start next week

usualstripes

brookville wrote: »

Lester ryan will likely miss the whole league he got his appendix out yesterday
Kevin kelly has a hamstring injury and he has a big game with his college next week so I'd say that's why he want available.
Hopefully pat lyngs injury isn't to serious and he can play next week which is probably a must win game
John walsh played for his college mid week so probably just has to get up to match fitness
I think oillie walsh deserves another run while I'd also like to see leahy start next week

If you play pat Lyng and leahy along with walter, Richie hogan and tj who is left out and where do leahy and at pat Lyng play as we need strength in the half forward line so tj and walter need to be there

ttowncat

Hoganstand have it that lester will be out for a few weeks with appendix. Richie hogan doesn't have the pace or long enough legs for the corner.. he's either loose centre forward or midfield for me.
Is the panel finalised does anyone know? Or is there a cull coming? I thought Ollie Walsh was unlucky to be called ashore... dunno if we'll see jonjo again?

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Waterford win an all Ireland but not if they turn the game into rugby and puke football.. It must be very frustrating playing against that ****e- hopefully it'll get them nowhere.

I'd be expecting trouble for Ger Cunningham with the dubs too.. that short tappy game he's trying to get them to play along with the type of panel he's investing in is awful stuff..

thesultan

ttowncat wrote: »

Hoganstand have it that lester will be out for a few weeks with appendix. Richie hogan doesn't have the pace or long enough legs for the corner.. he's either loose centre forward or midfield for me.
Is the panel finalised does anyone know? Or is there a cull coming? I thought Ollie Walsh was unlucky to be called ashore... dunno if we'll see jonjo again?

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Waterford win an all Ireland but not if they turn the game into rugby and puke football.. It must be very frustrating playing against that ****e- hopefully it'll get them nowhere.

I'd be expecting trouble for Ger Cunningham with the dubs too.. that short tappy game he's trying to get them to play along with the type of panel he's investing in is awful stuff..

The Waterford game is horrible to watch and this is from a Waterford supporter.

usualstripes

thesultan wrote: »

The Waterford game is horrible to watch and this is from a Waterford

waterford concentrate large numbers of players under the ball and are when a waterford players wins possession from the ruck there are many players/runners to support the player in possession.
We just have to be cuter with our hurling and start delivering better ball to forwards that are able to get into space from there deliveries and either take their own scores or offload to someone coming into a better position.
The simple fact is backs do not want to be dragged out of position as it leaves gaps and openings for oncoming players to take advantage of.
If we are cuter with our delivery into forwards and open up space you will see a lot more chances and in particular goal chances created.
This means forwards need to be thinking ahead and be looking for possession that drags a back out of his comfort zone.

mullinr2

What is more concerning about the loss today is that there seems to be no fluidity to our play. It's all about hoofing the ball into the forwards. We don't have the Shefflins, Powers, Larkins to win those type of balls anymore. For the likes of K. Kelly and Alyward, the ball needs to come in with some precision. If we continue with the current approach we're at nothing.

mullinr2

I'd be worried for our backs next week against Clare. First touch was way off today

Topcat32

First touch and distribution was definitely poor but apart from the first 15 minutes I thought the backs were pretty solid. I dont see Padraig Walsh and Paul Murphy working out in central positions. Kieran Joyce is a lot more comfortable at wing back tho

dubcat51

Poor game today.giving away so many frees cost us the game.waterford very physical and wanting to lau down a marker.very hard for forwards in the conditions.lester big loss todsy as conditions were made for him.some players touch was way off(buckley in particular)
E.murphy excellent yop keeper
J holden poor needs to get out in front
P walsh ok but for me better at half back
C o shea decent performance
5 k.joyce ok
6.p.murphy hit alot of ball yo de burca
7.c bucley poor
8.c.fogarty gave away alot of ball
9.o.walsh good
10.p lyng decent
11 tj decent missed a few easy frees
12 s.morrissey poor
13 jonjo poor
14 l.blanch looked dangerous but didnt fire
15r hogan needs to play further out
Hopefully kelly bolger etc will get a run next week.

Cornerback1

One thing that got to me in the first half was 2 handy frees we conceded. One was a wild swing by T.J. and another straight after was a rugby type tackle from Joyce who was wrong side.

To me, at that level, we can't be conceding soft frees like that.

I thought Waterford deserved the win. They were hungrier and dominated the skies and the break ball. Our touch was very poor but it's early days. Sometimes we tried to take too much out of it. Barron in mid-field was excellent - kept it simple and chipped in with a few points.


Our forwards couldn't win the first ball and Waterford were first to the break. The only decent pass was by Cillian Buckley I think in the second half - 50 yards low into the left corner. I think we got a free out of it. Everyother pass was mi**** or to the defender's advantage.


After today, we may have more questions than answers but it's only early Feb.

Fort Stranger

I listened to Ronnie and Taggy on KCLR and it was a comedy classic, better than Ant and Dec any day! Brilliant, I hope they let them do a few more matchesðŸ‘

Topcat32

Cornerback1 wrote: »

One thing that got to me in the first half was 2 handy frees we conceded. One was a wild swing by T.J. and another straight after was a rugby type tackle from Joyce who was wrong side.

To me, at that level, we can't be conceding soft frees like that.

I thought Waterford deserved the win. They were hungrier and dominated the skies and the break ball. Our touch was very poor but it's early days. Sometimes we tried to take too much out of it. Barron in mid-field was excellent - kept it simple and chipped in with a few points.


Our forwards couldn't win the first ball and Waterford were first to the break. The only decent pass was by Cillian Buckley I think in the second half - 50 yards low into the left corner. I think we got a free out of it. Everyother pass was mi**** or to the defender's advantage.


After today, we may have more questions than answers but it's only early Feb.

I think what today shows is that to be competitive we are going to need a lot of luck with injuries and for the players who are coming back from injury to find form. Its possible that we could have a half forward line of Walter Walsh, TJ Reid, Richie Hogan and a full forward line of Colin Fennelly, Liam Blanchfield and Ger Aylward with Kevin Kelly and James Maher to come off the bench. Thats a far better forward line than we had out today or in the All Ireland final last year.

68deville

A lot of people putting a lot of faith in Chris Bolger to step up, watched him in U21 and far from ste the world alight

Topcat32

68deville wrote: »

A lot of people putting a lot of faith in Chris Bolger to step up, watched him in U21 and far from ste the world alight

He is scoring goals in the Fitzgibbon cup, was dangerous at under 21 and is worth a try. I think he might be an option off the bench.

Noddy33

No to hit the panic stations just yet as still have alot of key players to come back. But there no denying there definitely problems at both end of the pitch that need resolving. We have struggled big time against any decent kind of opposition. Anyone down in New Ross will know Wexford should have won that game and if Galway has any decent kind of free taker last week we would have been bet too.
Thought Padraig Walsh the slip aside for the goal was very assured at full back. However we got absolutely cleaned out under puck outs which is an area he general dominated when playing half back. I would have loved to seen Richie Reid given a run at half back yesterday as he has good aerial skills and would have been a good test to see if he an option outfield or not. Thought Pender did ok when introduced too. Murphy got on the ball alot which is what you want to see from your centre back but he will know himself he needed to use the ball more effectively. 
Midfield was completely dominated and was really hoping Ollie Walsh would have a good came as he impressed so far but unfortunately other the scoring a point he probably will have been disappointed with his own performance. The biggest concern for me was for the first time I can remember we didnt create one goal scoring chance........I would prefer to see Richie further out the field to allow him get on the ball more but perhaps until Ger Aylward is fit enough he prob needs to remain in Full Forward line to offer some kind of goal threat. Think if we have absolutely everybody fit our starting 15 will take a good team to beat them but the likelihood of having a full pick is very rare and not sure if the dept in squad is there to compete with the likes of Tipp
Just a quick mention to say great to see John Mulhall chip in with 6points for Kildare in their win over Armagh yesterday. The ship has sailed with him for Kilkenny but the lad obviously want to hurls Inter County at some level

Topcat32

Noddy33 wrote: »

No to hit the panic stations just yet as still have alot of key players to come back. But there no denying there definitely problems at both end of the pitch that need resolving. We have struggled big time against any decent kind of opposition. Anyone down in New Ross will know Wexford should have won that game and if Galway has any decent kind of free taker last week we would have been bet too.
Thought Padraig Walsh the slip aside for the goal was very assured at full back. However we got absolutely cleaned out under puck outs which is an area he general dominated when playing half back. I would have loved to seen Richie Reid given a run at half back yesterday as he has good aerial skills and would have been a good test to see if he an option outfield or not. Thought Pender did ok when introduced too. Murphy got on the ball alot which is what you want to see from your centre back but he will know himself he needed to use the ball more effectively. 
Midfield was completely dominated and was really hoping Ollie Walsh would have a good came as he impressed so far but unfortunately other the scoring a point he probably will have been disappointed with his own performance. The biggest concern for me was for the first time I can remember we didnt create one goal scoring chance........I would prefer to see Richie further out the field to allow him get on the ball more but perhaps until Ger Aylward is fit enough he prob needs to remain in Full Forward line to offer some kind of goal threat. Think if we have absolutely everybody fit our starting 15 will take a good team to beat them but the likelihood of having a full pick is very rare and not sure if the dept in squad is there to compete with the likes of Tipp
Just a quick mention to say great to see John Mulhall chip in with 6points for Kildare in their win over Armagh yesterday. The ship has sailed with him for Kilkenny but the lad obviously want to hurls Inter County at some level

I didnt think we were completely dominated at midfield but the ball that Waterford won there was used far more effectively, Waterford seemed to have an extra man there every time, Fogarty and Lyng who won a good bit of ball seemed to have to plough up the middle and get bottled up. It wasnt as if the Waterford half forwards won much ball either but the half back line fumbled the ball, were blocked down or hit the ball direct to a Waterford player far too often.

Ceist_Beag

Very little in the way of clean catches yesterday, an awful lot of fumbling and scrums on the ground. On the plus side, Kilkenny scored almost half their scores from play whereas Waterford only managed 1-4 from play but then that may say something about the number of frees conceded, sometimes quite silly frees to give away.
I thought Kilkenny could have let Eoin Murphy take a few more of the long range frees in the second half ... but then he made me eat my words with his last effort!
Young Lyng looked decent until he was taken out and Conor O'Shea did alright too. I thought the half back line was quite poor, well beaten for the most part. I thought Padraig did alright at FB.

Noddy33

Topcat32 wrote: »

Noddy33 wrote: »

No to hit the panic stations just yet as still have alot of key players to come back. But there no denying there definitely problems at both end of the pitch that need resolving. We have struggled big time against any decent kind of opposition. Anyone down in New Ross will know Wexford should have won that game and if Galway has any decent kind of free taker last week we would have been bet too.
Thought Padraig Walsh the slip aside for the goal was very assured at full back. However we got absolutely cleaned out under puck outs which is an area he general dominated when playing half back. I would have loved to seen Richie Reid given a run at half back yesterday as he has good aerial skills and would have been a good test to see if he an option outfield or not. Thought Pender did ok when introduced too. Murphy got on the ball alot which is what you want to see from your centre back but he will know himself he needed to use the ball more effectively. 
Midfield was completely dominated and was really hoping Ollie Walsh would have a good came as he impressed so far but unfortunately other the scoring a point he probably will have been disappointed with his own performance. The biggest concern for me was for the first time I can remember we didnt create one goal scoring chance........I would prefer to see Richie further out the field to allow him get on the ball more but perhaps until Ger Aylward is fit enough he prob needs to remain in Full Forward line to offer some kind of goal threat. Think if we have absolutely everybody fit our starting 15 will take a good team to beat them but the likelihood of having a full pick is very rare and not sure if the dept in squad is there to compete with the likes of Tipp
Just a quick mention to say great to see John Mulhall chip in with 6points for Kildare in their win over Armagh yesterday. The ship has sailed with him for Kilkenny but the lad obviously want to hurls Inter County at some level

I didnt think we were completely dominated at midfield but the ball that Waterford won there was used far more effectively, Waterford seemed to have an extra man there every time, Fogarty and Lyng who won a good bit of ball seemed to have to plough up the middle and get bottled up. It wasnt as if the Waterford half forwards won much ball either but the half back line fumbled the ball, were blocked down or hit the ball direct to a Waterford player far too often.

I thought our midfield failed to may any marker down espicially at the pucks put when we couldnt win primary ball or the breaking ball. Fogarty did win some dirty ball but each time ran into a wall of Waterford players. Agreed it was more so the half back coughed up possession too easy rather than being outplayed but aerial dominance was something that Kilkenny lorded over teams until recently and struggled with yesterday and thats reason why I would have loved to see if Richie Reid could have made an impression here. Our midfield will obviously strengthen considerably when Mick Fennelly returns but the importance of keeping him fit for Championship part of season becomes more vital

Noddy33

Topcat32 wrote: »

Noddy33 wrote: »

No to hit the panic stations just yet as still have alot of key players to come back. But there no denying there definitely problems at both end of the pitch that need resolving. We have struggled big time against any decent kind of opposition. Anyone down in New Ross will know Wexford should have won that game and if Galway has any decent kind of free taker last week we would have been bet too.
Thought Padraig Walsh the slip aside for the goal was very assured at full back. However we got absolutely cleaned out under puck outs which is an area he general dominated when playing half back. I would have loved to seen Richie Reid given a run at half back yesterday as he has good aerial skills and would have been a good test to see if he an option outfield or not. Thought Pender did ok when introduced too. Murphy got on the ball alot which is what you want to see from your centre back but he will know himself he needed to use the ball more effectively. 
Midfield was completely dominated and was really hoping Ollie Walsh would have a good came as he impressed so far but unfortunately other the scoring a point he probably will have been disappointed with his own performance. The biggest concern for me was for the first time I can remember we didnt create one goal scoring chance........I would prefer to see Richie further out the field to allow him get on the ball more but perhaps until Ger Aylward is fit enough he prob needs to remain in Full Forward line to offer some kind of goal threat. Think if we have absolutely everybody fit our starting 15 will take a good team to beat them but the likelihood of having a full pick is very rare and not sure if the dept in squad is there to compete with the likes of Tipp
Just a quick mention to say great to see John Mulhall chip in with 6points for Kildare in their win over Armagh yesterday. The ship has sailed with him for Kilkenny but the lad obviously want to hurls Inter County at some level

I didnt think we were completely dominated at midfield but the ball that Waterford won there was used far more effectively, Waterford seemed to have an extra man there every time, Fogarty and Lyng who won a good bit of ball seemed to have to plough up the middle and get bottled up. It wasnt as if the Waterford half forwards won much ball either but the half back line fumbled the ball, were blocked down or hit the ball direct to a Waterford player far too often.

I thought our midfield failed to may any marker down espicially at the pucks put when we couldnt win primary ball or the breaking ball. Fogarty did win some dirty ball but each time ran into a wall of Waterford players. Agreed it was more so the half back coughed up possession too easy rather than being outplayed but aerial dominance was something that Kilkenny lorded over teams until recently and struggled with yesterday and thats reason why I would have loved to see if Richie Reid could have made an impression here. Our midfield will obviously strengthen considerably when Mick Fennelly returns but the importance of keeping him fit for Championship part of season becomes more vital

ttowncat

I don't know how much aerial and middle third dominance can improve against the Waterford system? It's all about bodies in the way, subtle and not so subtle body checking and jousting under the puck outs that a ref is not to to be able to see or call( not that I could see any full on blatant fouling myself) but you'd want to be super human to hold your ground, protect your hand, make space and catch in those crowded melees let alone do anything with a ball if you did catch it!
Part of me thinks that that is part of the reason Waterford clog the middle third for puck outs->they spoil the oppositions chance of primary possession and then fancy themselves to pick up breaks near the ground with what comparatively looks like stockier and quicker lads who are used to the scrum and support system. Maybe if we had Joyce and fogarty lift Walter up into the air like a rugby line out we could beat them at their own game!!! ��

Anyhow did anyone at the match notice were there any reasonable opportunities for eoin Murphy to go short on the puckouts and then hope that whatever half back that got it could get it over the middle third (then there's de burca sweeping I suppose!) or would this be a trap? Herity said in an interview lately that he was never really allowed go short unless it was a 120yard short puck out!

Topcat32

ttowncat wrote: »

I don't know how much aerial and middle third dominance can improve against the Waterford system? It's all about bodies in the way, subtle and not so subtle body checking and jousting under the puck outs that a ref is not to to be able to see or call( not that I could see any full on blatant fouling myself) but you'd want to be super human to hold your ground, protect your hand, make space and catch in those crowded melees let alone do anything with a ball if you did catch it!
Part of me thinks that that is part of the reason Waterford clog the middle third for puck outs->they spoil the oppositions chance of primary possession and then fancy themselves to pick up breaks near the ground with what comparatively looks like stockier and quicker lads who are used to the scrum and support system. Maybe if we had Joyce and fogarty lift Walter up into the air like a rugby line out we could beat them at their own game!!! ��

Anyhow did anyone at the match notice were there any reasonable opportunities for eoin Murphy to go short on the puckouts and then hope that whatever half back that got it could get it over the middle third (then there's de burca sweeping I suppose!) or would this be a trap? Herity said in an interview lately that he was never really allowed go short unless it was a 120yard short puck out!

Thats an interesting point about the short puck outs. It was pretty common for Jackie to recieve them short so I dont think Cody is completely against them, I just think its that Holden and O Shea would not be trusted to consistently clear the ball well, our best option in that regard would probably be Shane Prendergast.

Ceist_Beag

Even simple hand passes were being dropped yesterday. I don't think it was a day to risk short puck outs. Once the ball went to ground it was proving very hard to get it back to hand again as well.

usualstripes

Looking at the match yesterday a few things spring to mind;

1) We need to be quicker and more assured in possession. We were caught a number of times in possession.
2) We cannot have a situation whereby waterford had 8 men under the dropping ball. Where were their markers, our own men? Wed have top try to drag lads into positions that brings their markers with them rather than allowing them to support under the dropping ball.
3) Spraying diagonal, crossfield balls or direct into the corners to try to pull their men out of position and more importantly out of their comfort zone. I know that they play a sweeper but we have to be far cuter in our deliveries. This means our forwards are never static and always looking for a ball in space, pulling out their backs and either taking our own score or offloading to a man in a better position.
4) Our strength in fielding and under the dropping ball was uncharacteristically poor yesterday but that will improve over the coming weeks.
5) Strength in the ruck or breaking ball will have to be upped, we got horsed out of it in these congested areas yesterday.

danganabu

mullinr2 wrote: »

Anyone else think that Tipp will do a clean sweep this year - league, munster and all ireland. They have a forward line to be envious of. If you really think about it only TJ and R.Hogan would make their forward line. It's their forward line that will probably bring them a 3 in a row All Ireland

I really can't over emphasise how absolutely terrible Dublin were, they are in very big trouble and don't think that Cunningham will last the year.

Topcat32 wrote: »

a pretty average Limerick team were only beaten by 3 points against them last year.

Being a little disingenuous with the truth there Topcat, wiki doesnt always tell the full story!!

dzer2 wrote: »

ah lads Waterford took everything man or ball they wont get away with that on a faster pitch and a decent ref

Horgan is brutal imo, I have watched him all the way up along and the amount he has regressed in the last few years since making the inter-county referees panel is frightening.

Topcat32

I see Kierans had a good win at the weekend and CBS were going well untill their match was abandoned. A good few Kk players in the Good Council team as well and the best player on a decent Borris Vocational school team is from Paulstown. It seems like we have never been no dominant in that competition over the last few years which is odd giving the generally negative feeling around underage county teams over the last few years.

Topcat32

danganabu wrote: »

I really can't over emphasise how absolutely terrible Dublin were, they are in very big trouble and don't think that Cunningham will last the year.



Being a little disingenuous with the truth there Topcat, wiki doesnt always tell the full story!!



Horgan is brutal imo, I have watched him all the way up along and the amount he has regressed in the last few years since making the inter-county referees panel is frightening.

Ah the match was televised and I do live in Limerick so I did watch the match, you did only win by 3 points, I said Tipp give teams chances, doesnt one of your best players getting stupidly sent off and giving away late goals to a team that you are much better than meet that discription??

usualstripes

usualstripes wrote: »

Looking at the match yesterday a few things spring to mind;

1) We need to be quicker and more assured in possession. We were caught a number of times in possession.
2) We cannot have a situation whereby waterford had 8 men under the dropping ball. Where were their markers, our own men? Wed have top try to drag lads into positions that brings their markers with them rather than allowing them to support under the dropping ball.
3) Spraying diagonal, crossfield balls or direct into the corners to try to pull their men out of position and more importantly out of their comfort zone. I know that they play a sweeper but we have to be far cuter in our deliveries. This means our forwards are never static and always looking for a ball in space, pulling out their backs and either taking our own score or offloading to a man in a better position.
4) Our strength in fielding and under the dropping ball was uncharacteristically poor yesterday but that will improve over the coming weeks.
5) Strength in the ruck or breaking ball will have to be upped, we got horsed out of it in these congested areas yesterday.

Just to add to the above i dont think there is any need to be too down on this, this was the 1st match of the league, we have had 5 in the Walsh cup, which included a selection of u21s in dunmore for the 1st match in the Walsh cup.
The lads will come on and yesterdays match will have done them no harm at all, in fact it will spur them on to make the necessary improvements.
Also take into consideration the following guys;

Colin Fennelly - will be back in action in the next few weeks
James Maher - improving on his fitness and will be a big addition
Ger Aylward - will improve his fitness after a long spell off
John Walsh - will hopefully be involved when colleges are finished
Kevin Kelly - will be retraining from colleges also
Mark Kelly - not sure where he is at atm
Mark Bergin - not sure where he is at atm either
Luke Scanlon - not sure where he is at atm either
Mick Fennelly - probably looking at late may at least
Evan Cody - will get his chance
Conor Delaney - hopefully will come on to the panel at some stage if not already in training

The backs will improve if Padraig gets a sustained run in there. This will settle things down and once the whole panel gets training together i have no doubt we will see a different team performance to yesterday.
A big effort will be required in Ennis this weekend though as we need to get a few points on the board.

randd1

Topcat32 wrote: »

I see Kierans had a good win at the weekend and CBS were going well untill their match was abandoned. A good few Kk players in the Good Council team as well and the best player on a decent Borris Vocational school team is from Paulstown. It seems like we have never been no dominant in that competition over the last few years which is odd giving the generally negative feeling around underage county teams over the last few years.

I think we put too much emphasis on schools to be honest. Take last year for example, we had a huge influence on the schools junior and senior competitions last year, with Kierans winning a three in a row at senior.

But they weren't training with the county, and a team that was full of talent but hadn't worked together came up against a good Dublin team that had the work done and became a cropper.

When you think of what a Thurles CBS inspired Tipp team did at minor last year, it makes you wonder what could have been had we put a bit more focus on getting the minors right for the Dublin game.

Not to mention that a lot of the intermediate and junior AI success over the last 5/6 years have been driven by young club teams, it makes you wonder how we're not progressing lads as much as we should be.

Have to say the standard of senior club hurling in the county has been very poor and free ridden the last few years, very few creative or dominant players are coming through with senior clubs, Mullen and Cody from Ballyhale apart really.

brookville

usualstripes wrote: »

Just to add to the above i dont think there is any need to be too down on this, this was the 1st match of the league, we have had 5 in the Walsh cup, which included a selection of u21s in dunmore for the 1st match in the Walsh cup.
The lads will come on and yesterdays match will have done them no harm at all, in fact it will spur them on to make the necessary improvements.
Also take into consideration the following guys;

Colin Fennelly - will be back in action in the next few weeks
James Maher - improving on his fitness and will be a big addition
Ger Aylward - will improve his fitness after a long spell off
John Walsh - will hopefully be involved when colleges are finished
Kevin Kelly - will be retraining from colleges also
Mark Kelly - not sure where he is at atm
Mark Bergin - not sure where he is at atm either
Luke Scanlon - not sure where he is at atm either
Mick Fennelly - probably looking at late may at least
Evan Cody - will get his chance
Conor Delaney - hopefully will come on to the panel at some stage if not already in training

The backs will improve if Padraig gets a sustained run in there. This will settle things down and once the whole panel gets training together i have no doubt we will see a different team performance to yesterday.
A big effort will be required in Ennis this weekend though as we need to get a few points on the board.

Theres no doubt we'll improve as the year progresses I remember last year the first day out it was the same thing but this time we had more newcomers
Sunday is really a must win game away to clare.
As far as I know mark kelly isn't on the panel while bergin is currently injured

danganabu

randd1 wrote: »

When you think of what a Thurles CBS inspired Tipp team did at minor last year, it makes you wonder what could have been had we put a bit more focus on getting the minors right for the Dublin game

I don't think there was a single Thurles CBS player on the Tipp team, Templemore and Nenagh provide the majority.

danganabu

Topcat32 wrote: »

Ah the match was televised and I do live in Limerick so I did watch the match, you did only win by 3 points, I said Tipp give teams chances, doesnt one of your best players getting stupidly sent off and giving away late goals to a team that you are much better than meet that discription??

Fair enough, still think its a silly arguement and a meaningless sample size but each to their own as they say!

Topcat32

danganabu wrote: »

Fair enough, still think its a silly arguement and a meaningless sample size but each to their own as they say!

Only thing I got wrong was that you won by two points. I didnt say you were not the much better team on the day. I think its fair comment that Tipp have not always killed off teams when in strong positions over the last few years. Obviously that changed in the final but it still does give hope to other teams which they probably didnt have against us when Kilkenny were in their prime.

mountgomery burns

ttowncat wrote: »

Hoganstand have it that lester will be out for a few weeks with appendix. Richie hogan doesn't have the pace or long enough legs for the corner.. he's either loose centre forward or midfield for me.
Is the panel finalised does anyone know? Or is there a cull coming? I thought Ollie Walsh was unlucky to be called ashore... dunno if we'll see jonjo again?

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Waterford win an all Ireland but not if they turn the game into rugby and puke football.. It must be very frustrating playing against that ****e- hopefully it'll get them nowhere.

I'd be expecting trouble for Ger Cunningham with the dubs too.. that short tappy game he's trying to get them to play along with the type of panel he's investing in is awful stuff..

I think that's pretty unfair to be honest. For the first 45 mins Waterford played a pretty expansive game and there was always at least two in the full forward line. Kilkenny often dragged Eoin Larkin out to do a similar function around the middle.

Waterford created 3 goal scoring chances and a lot of good ball was played to Curran and Devine in that period. With regard to midfield rucks, when Waterford were getting the ball they were bottled up as well and found it very hard to burst forward due to the number of Kilkenny bodies around. It's a slower game this time of year and with the cold there was a lot of fumbles and mis control, you don't get second chances at that level. I'd far rather see a game like yesterday than one with zero intensity such as the Cork Dublin league game a couple of years ago where Cork got 21 points by half time.

Waterford retreated second half and Kilkenny actually game into it more but his could be as much to do with players tiring as much as it was predesigbed to protect a lead. Tadhg Bourke didn't stand in front of Barry Coughlan all game and he covers a serious amount of ground. Kilkenny have a tendency to drop the center forward out to midfield, he wouldn't be a very good center back if he was to leave 60 yards of space in front of his full back in order to man mark a center forward.

Topcat32

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I think that's pretty unfair to be honest. For the first 45 mins Waterford played a pretty expansive game and there was always at least two in the full forward line. Kilkenny often dragged Eoin Larkin out to do a similar function around the middle.

Waterford created 3 goal scoring chances and a lot of good ball was played to Curran and Devine in that period. With regard to midfield rucks, when Waterford were getting the ball they were bottled up as well and found it very hard to burst forward due to the number of Kilkenny bodies around. It's a slower game this time of year and with the cold there was a lot of fumbles and mis control, you don't get second chances at that level. I'd far rather see a game like yesterday than one with zero intensity such as the Cork Dublin league game a couple of years ago where Cork got 21 points by half time.

Waterford retreated second half and Kilkenny actually game into it more but his could be as much to do with players tiring as much as it was predesigbed to protect a lead. Tadhg Bourke didn't stand in front of Barry Coughlan all game and he covers a serious amount of ground. Kilkenny have a tendency to drop the center forward out to midfield, he wouldn't be a very good center back if he was to leave 60 yards of space in front of his full back in order to man mark a center forward.

I think thats pretty fair, I thought yesterday was a decent match for this time of year. I would doubt if anybody fron Tipp was overly worried about anything they saw tho, non many stand out performances on either side.

danganabu

Topcat32 wrote: »

Only thing I got wrong was that you won by two points. I didnt say you were not the much better team on the day. I think its fair comment that Tipp have not always killed off teams when in strong positions over the last few years. Obviously that changed in the final but it still does give hope to other teams which they probably didnt have against us when Kilkenny were in their prime.

And the Munster Final and the first round. Your example is based on a game where Tipp played three quarters of the game with 14 players in absolute awful conditions and never at any stage looked in trouble or in danger of not winning. It's the ultimate straw man arguement.

ttowncat

Suppose it's a matter of opinion of where wou draw the line on what is overly defensive, puke and blanket hurling. Yes kilkenny started the drop back of wing forwards to defend space against the cork running game of the early naughties, but Kilkenny didn't regularly set up for puck outs with most of the team in the middle third-> a lot of the time a forward would track back as an outlet for the ball if our backs were under siege and hence find himself in his own team's half..

I think it all slightly compares with (something related to but not nearly as extreme) as what mickey Harte did with Tyrone and what everyone thought was a blanket.. but Donegal in football and Waterford in hurling have taken it to a whole new level and now football is ruined..
Where do you draw the line with how the game is played is your own opinion- that everyone stays in their programme positions and midfielders operate between the 45s? Or Anthony daly sweeper system? Or Clare running around everywhere? Or half forwards tracking back deeper? Etc but in my opinion Football has gotten so bad that they will have to intervene with rule changes to make it watchable and if the Waterford defensive level infects hurling in the same way then it too will need rule changes...
The silver lining is that at least Waterford know that the defensive system will not get them over the line in the summer but that it is just about effective for winter hurling.. but the amount of rucks and three men boxing in a player is terrible ****e to watch and there's no way there would have been that many if Kilkenny had been playing anyone else yesterday...

Topcat32

danganabu wrote: »

And the Munster Final and the first round. Your example is based on a game where Tipp played three quarters of the game with 14 players in absolute awful conditions and never at any stage looked in trouble or in danger of not winning. It's the ultimate straw man arguement.

I think you think you might want to look up the definition of what a straw man "arguement" is, or possibly you mean argument, wiki might help.

mountgomery burns

The two games between Kilkenny and Waterford in the championship last year were the two best games of the championship. The two league games were not entertaining contests to that effect. This isn't by any means me bragging over winning a league match, but I think your frustration watching Waterford crowd out Kilkenny might be colouring your judgement on what was entertaining.

If Waterford were as negative as you are suggesting, they wouldn't have created three clear cut goal chances. I don't see how Waterford are anything like Donegal at their worst and I also think Waterford are more expansive than two years ago.

ttowncat

I take your point on KK being partly culprits in rucks etc. yes Waterford are more expansive than 2 years ago when they just had maurice shanahan to aim for but they are engaging in two defensive methods at the same time which makes them more defensive than anyone else-> clogging the middle and the sweeper. Hopefully this summer they will hurl with the abandon of their U21s and learn the lessons of retreating into their shell to protect a lead but I have a feeling that they haven't and on another day Kilkenny would have caught them at the finish. I'm delighted I couldn't travel for this match regardless of the result as the free flowing and quality of hurling wasn't there as well as the display from some of the Kilkenny lads was abysmal (although if they were playing in a more open game they might have showed better, who knows..)
And it's not always the case that entertaining means quality.. close games with a chase at the finish usually make for entertaining and exciting. Allowing for the winter conditions and rustiness it was still more like a game of rugby..

blackcard

Watergord seemed to be more up for the game yesterday as evidenced by the antics of Dan and Waterford winning all the rucks. Cody will store this for later in the year as he will the"attention" that Blanchfield got from Coughlan. Any word on Blanchfield's injury?

blackcard

After years where ex kk players had no media involvement, there is now a flood of players involved. David Herity, Michael Kavanagh, JJ Delaney, Jackie Tyrrell, Brian Hogan, Henry Shefflin, Eddie Brennan, Aidan Fogarty spring to mind. Any of that generation likely to get involved in coaching?