Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Cornerback1

blackcard wrote: »

Dionysis wrote: »

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Wexford were agressive and wanted a battle. They dominated all over the pitch. They deserved to win and win by more in fairness. Only for Scruff Murphy they could have scored another 3 goals. Top keeper in Ireland.

This season has been a learning curve for the younger lads and that's a positive.




Big thing for me is, after all these games, I don't think we are any further on interms of our defence - specifically our full back line. Every time runners burst through, I fear a goal opportunity.

Hopefully this will be used to motivate the lads in June. Wexford had an edge to them.

KK need a full back and a centre back with a bit of bite in them. So what if they are not the finished article, but Cody should play the best we have and continues ye with it until they learn the role. Padraig Walsh is no full back.

As an aside, when Ireland were struggling for props the time of the Bull Hayes,the IRFU took it upon themselves to develop a number of options in this area in the coming years. Maybe KK development squads along with Cody need to take a lesson from rugby here and start developing talent for roles rather than trying to shoe horn in s make shift full back.

So who is the full back and centre back that should be playing?

I'd try Joyce at No. 3 - work on his speed and turning over the next 2 months.

I think Padraig, at wing back, is capable of playing in decent deliveries to the forwards.

unrealtime

Very bad and worrying. No more meaningful matches to try says James Maher and we need Ger and Mick. I think Joey is worth a run at full back again with say Padraig at left full and Paul on thr right. Buckley has to go back to half back with say Cleere and Fogarty.

dubcat51

Dionysis wrote: »

Of those names you mentioned I would remove - Walter, Colin, Ger (played one good season).
Michael Fennelly will Probably not play again.

Buckley, Fogarty and Walsh are decent, but not very good.

TJ, Richie and Murphy are very good.

Buckley walsh and fogarty not very good your definitely having a laugh😃

Topcat32

The league is over for us and even though I can still see us as being competitive this season, its fair to say that it has been pretty dissapointing. Only the Tipp match and to a lesser extent the second half against Cork have been enjoyable to watch.

The players that I would see that have maintained or enhanced their reputation would be as follows: Eoin Murphy, Conor O'Shea, Conor Fogarty, Liam Blanchfield, Richie Leahy, Pat Lyng, Jason Cleere and Paddy Deegan

Paul Murphy and Richie Hogan had poor leagues by their standards and to be honest seemed a bit disinterested at times

Walter and Colin mixed the ok with the very average, both were impacted by injury

Padraig Walsh, Cillian Buckley were ok but dont look really comfortable in the positions they have been asked to play.

TJ was good at times but I think his workrate could have been better.

Evan Cody and Sean Morrissey got starts but theirs debuts didnt go well.

With a lot of experience gone from the dressing room I think we are lacking some leadership on the field as well, one thing I noticed against Dublin was how quiet the players were to each other, lads like Shefflin used to be pretty open in letting the rest of the team know when he was unhappy.

Larkin had a go at the younger players after the Clare match, I think its been the more experienced players who have been dissapointing during this league, which can partly be explained by injury, being played out of position and possibly that another league medal wouldnt mean a huge amount to multipe all ireland winners

68deville

I hope Cody plays Holden at FB again , come championship chances are he will be on Guiney at the edge of the square

Dionysis

Quite simply, the backs have no bite. Tipp, Wexford yesterday, Waterford and Galway backs all have an edge to them. Some go over the top with dragging and shoving off the ball but they all have bite. We have.... anything but. It's 2001 all over again. Our players are getting out muscled and out fought all over the pitch.

The biggest issue with the backs is that the opposition all know to isolate them. Every team does it against us now. Why Cody doesn't keep his full back line and half back line back with his midfield sitting tight as well and shore up the space I don't know. Tipp did it last Sept and Wexford did it yesterday.

The division 1b teams that won yesterday were; Galway beat Waterford, hardly a surprise; limerick beat cork, I'd have thought limerick to have been a better side. And wexford who have got their focus and fight back coupled with some good youngsters over the past few years.

Yesterday and this years league is coming with the last few years. The county boards lip service to the U-21 championship is now costing us. Players that are years off the required physical and mental standard to play senior intercounty hurling. Cody is a fantastic manager but he's not Jesus. He cannot make wine out of water.

Village87

Davy Fitz knows how to beat kilkenny, twice i the last 2 years so far. Stop TJ, he has been carrying the team the last few years. Most scores come through him either directly or indirectly.

People who are saying Paul Murphy was good yesterday need to have a good look at the game again.

The full back line were cleaned even playing with extra men. Wexford could have had 5 goals. Murphy is all over the place and needs to go, he has been awful in the league so far, as for Shane Pender, i wouldn't have him on the Village team, and im not joking

Dionysis

dubcat51 wrote: »

Buckley walsh and fogarty not very good your definitely having a laughðŸ˜႒

Buckley and Walsh got cleaned out in last years all Ireland. They are good players but not better than that. The thing is, as they are all we have people think they are excellent, they're not. They are not in the TJ and Richie calibre of player.

Dionysis

Village87 wrote: »

Davy Fitz knows how to beat kilkenny, twice i the last 2 years so far. Stop TJ, he has been carrying the team the last few years. Most scores come through him either directly or indirectly.

People who are saying Paul Murphy was good yesterday need to have a good look at the game again.

The full back line were cleaned even playing with extra men. Wexford could have had 5 goals. Murphy is all over the place and needs to go, he has been awful in the league so far, as for Shane Pender, i wouldn't have him on the Village team, and im not joking

Murphy is having a bad time, but he'll come good again, probably not soon enough though.
Pender is not up to This standard i agree.

JJs Left Hand

I agree with a lot of what you say but I'm not having anyone saying PW is just a "good" hurler. He's brilliant and is suffering for having to cover for those around him. He'd be unreal in the half forward line.

Village87

Brian Cody has no faith in his panel either, Kk were losing battles all over the field and should have been 8/9 points down, very similar to last years all ireland final. Cody introduced one sub, late enough too.

On another note, why did Cody take off Richie last week and not yesterday, Cody knew we were going to win last week with the wind behind kk backs and Dublin reduced to 14, he wouldnt do it yesterday when he really needed Richie.

Topcat32

Village87 wrote: »

Brian Cody has no faith in his panel either, Kk were losing battles all over the field and should have been 8/9 points down, very similar to last years all ireland final. Cody introduced one sub, late enough too.

On another note, why did Cody take off Richie last week and not yesterday, Cody knew we were going to win last week with the wind behind kk backs and Dublin reduced to 14, he wouldnt do it yesterday when he really needed Richie.

For a man with no faith in his panel he started a lot of players over the league. For me bringing in Lester for Conor Fogarty and the Farrell for Lester were very odd moves if you are trying to win the game. I think his thoughts yesterday were to let the players sink or swim and see how the team stood up to pressure, have to believe that in a championship game he wouldnt have brought on Joyce, Holden and lyng in a similar situation

davidx40

fdsfdsahhertdd wrote: »

davidx40 wrote: »

... much blather deleted


Simply saying the truth Walter is dreadful under a high ball no idea of timing or positional sense ....when i see us hitting puckouts down on top of him i just wonder what are selecters looking at..... if brian can make this team contenders it will be a miracle....we are so average ....to have any chance we need to come out of stone age and modernise tactics a bit....just hitting high hopless balls with o ball retention is just not going to work

JJs Left Hand

We don't need to modernise tactics we just need to stop skying ball into the forwards. The forwards need to take as much of the blame as well. I looked down at one stage when PW was coming out with the ball and our full forward line was standing static inside the 21 yard line not offering anything. ****ing move for **** sake this is U14 level stuff

FrankCummins

Village87 wrote: »

Davy Fitz knows how to beat kilkenny, twice i the last 2 years so far. Stop TJ, he has been carrying the team the last few years. Most scores come through him either directly or indirectly.

People who are saying Paul Murphy was good yesterday need to have a good look at the game again.

The full back line were cleaned even playing with extra men. Wexford could have had 5 goals. Murphy is all over the place and needs to go, he has been awful in the league so far, as for Shane Pender, i wouldn't have him on the Village team, and im not joking

Bring back T keogh

IrishAlice

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

The forwards need to take as much of the blame as well.

Completely agree, I thought they were absolutely dire yesterday and their poor performance put massive pressure on the backs.

We were outmaneuvered at every turn yesterday, Davy had our cards marked before ever stepping into Nowlan park but I can't help but think Wexford have shown their hand now.

Whatever happens it's going to be an interesting championship.

Nedflanders02

I think something drastically needs to be done with the forwards, they are just so one dimensional at the minute, there was little of no movement off the ball from any of them, neither corner forward made a diagonal run across the field looking for the ball at any stage yesterday. For years one of the characteristics of the KK forwards was the moving of positions between themselves but that doesn't seem to happen anymore, they stand in there position and unless Cody or Dempsey tell them to move they stay there. The lack of pace in the forwards really makes us easy to play against, I can't imagine to many opposition defenders having sleepless nights worrying about our forwards at the minute.

It's easy to blame the full back line and point the finger at them but we have not learned any lessons from the AI final, the half back line is still being dragged to far out the pitch and not offering any protection back there. The midfield yesterday were very ineffective and let Wexford run straight through the middle. Buckley and Walsh are good hurlers but I don't think midfield is there best position at this level, hopefully Buckley will move back to wing back for the championship.

One thing that really stood out yesterday was the lack of leadership from the more established players, near the end yesterday a lot of them went missing and in the end it the younger lads like Cleere, Deegan and Blanchfield who were getting on the ball and driving forward.

unrealtime

Time for Cody to go. He is making irrational decisions even if he desires to show up how inadequate some players are so he can boot them off the panel. But playing many out of position and holding on to those like. K Joyce and Joey while refusing to play them is simply insane.

We have no place to go now and Cody is not going to redeem himself.

Topcat32

unrealtime wrote: »

Time for Cody to go. He is making irrational decisions even if he desires to show up how inadequate some players are so he can boot them off the panel. But playing many out of position and holding on to those like. K Joyce and Joey while refusing to play them is simply insane.

We have no place to go now and Cody is not going to redeem himself.

Yeah we should pull all our teams out of the Leinster championship immediately too and go back to playing cricket.

dastardly00

Final basic stats from the league campaign...

dastardly00

Anyone know the story with Robert Lennon? He was an unused sub for the first two matches against Waterford & Clare, but hasn't been on the bench since then.

Village87

Lennon, Joyce, Holden all to slow. Cleere looked very average yesterday, poor under high ball, sloppy at times, not very commanding.

Kilkennys biggest game in a long time is the showdown v Dublin u21. Cody seems to relying on this u21 to build his next team around, lose against Dublin and Kilkenny will go 5 years without doing anything u21. Not the platform to build your team around.

Topcat32

Village87 wrote: »

Lennon, Joyce, Holden all to slow. Cleere looked very average yesterday, poor under high ball, sloppy at times, not very commanding.

Kilkennys biggest game in a long time is the showdown v Dublin u21. Cody seems to relying on this u21 to build his next team around, lose against Dublin and Kilkenny will go 5 years without doing anything u21. Not the platform to build your team around.

What other choice does have other than to rebuild the team with young players? Whatever happens in that game we need to rebuild with the under 21s, he is not a magician.

Dyr

Jesus lads, If yiz are all finished with Cody can we have him?

davidx40

Topcat32 wrote: »

Village87 wrote: »

Lennon, Joyce, Holden all to slow. Cleere looked very average yesterday, poor under high ball, sloppy at times, not very commanding.

Kilkennys biggest game in a long time is the showdown v Dublin u21. Cody seems to relying on this u21 to build his next team around, lose against Dublin and Kilkenny will go 5 years without doing anything u21. Not the platform to build your team around.

What other choice does have other than to rebuild the team with young players? Whatever happens in that game we need to rebuild with the under 21s, he is not a magician.

Agree totally hes not magician ....this fall of has being coming with 5/6 years weve had very poor u21 teams in that perìod.....you didnt have to be a genius to see what was coming.....we have so many lads on senior team at minute who are so limited in striking and basic skills its a real worry for nxt few years

Village87

Selectors and Cody need to have a good look at club players when the games start back on. Its a joke the panel at the moment, not one sub to make a difference on the bench yesterday and last years all ireland, Michael Walsh and Michael Malone for example, i am about 3 stone over weight and can play masters and i have as much chance of coming on yesterday and these lads

JJs Left Hand

Club hurling in the county has been a woeful standard for years now

unrealtime

Could have added to irrationalities noted above by also referring to fact that players like John Joe and Lester have been picked for years now. Do we hope to get a different result by repeating the same thing over and over again. Without all his retired stars Cody has lost the plot.

I don't agree though with those who would advocate that we withdraw from hurling championship like we have with football.

davidx40

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Club hurling in the county has been a woeful standard for years now

Says a lot when Gorta was nearly standout player in last years club championship and carrying an injury through whole lot.......look at yesterdays subs how many of them would be near panel in other counties??

Topcat32

unrealtime wrote: »

Could have added to irrationalities noted above by also referring to fact that players like John Joe and Lester have been picked for years now. Do we hope to get a different result by repeating the same thing over and over again. Without all his retired stars Cody has lost the plot.

I don't agree though with those who would advocate that we withdraw from hurling championship like we have with football.

Thinking a manager who has won at least one national or provincial title each year during this decade should go on the basis of a poor league seems a bit irrational to me. Its a league, he has to try things, we are just not in a position at the moment we we can experiment and win things, the older players dont look overly bothered by the league, the young players are finding their way and there is a number of players who arent up to the standard of top level intercounty hurling.

unrealtime

Withdrawing the team is far more irrational. All the points I made were fully rational. The past is not now, we are on a slide. I don't see Cody reversing it by the way he managed the league.

Topcat32

unrealtime wrote: »

Withdrawing the team is far more irrational. All the points I made were fully rational. The past is not now, we are on a slide. I don't see Cody reversing it by the way he managed the league.

My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.

v3ttel

unrealtime wrote: »

Time for Cody to go. He is making irrational decisions even if he desires to show up how inadequate some players are so he can boot them off the panel. But playing many out of position and holding on to those like. K Joyce and Joey while refusing to play them is simply insane.

We have no place to go now and Cody is not going to redeem himself.

Stop. Just stop. He has only failed to qualify for 3 All-Ireland finals since 1999.

Let's even pretend he started in 2014. He's won 2 of the last 3 All-Ireland's and lost the other in a final. They'd be building statues of a manager that did that in other counties, yet here you are dismissing him after a relatively poor league campaign.

We can all be critical at times about how he can be slow to make changes, but seriously, I'm embarrassed anyone suggested he should go in the first week of April. It's cringeworthy stuff.

You've zero clue how lucky we have been to have such sustained success. Every team is going to have a dip, it's just remarkable it's taken 18 years for it to happen, even then, I still believe we will be involved at the business end of the championship if we have everyone fit and free of injury.

usualstripes

Topcat32 wrote: »

My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.

Some lads need to get a grip here.
Considering all the players we lost we still have the structure to be very competitive.
The following have not turned into poor players


Eoin Murphy
Paul Murphy
Padraig walsh
Kieran joyce
Conor Fogarty
James cleere
Paddy deegan
Lester ryan
Ollie walsh
Cillian Buckley
Walter Walsh
TJ
Richie leahy
Colin fennelly
Mick fennelly
Richie hogan
Liam blanchfield
Conor martin
Ger aylward
Conor delaney
Evan cody
Joey holden
James maher
Pat lyng
Mark bergin
Sean morrissey
Joe lyng

Plus add in a few on the extended panel for next year

John walsh
Luke scanlon
Tommy walsh

Of course we have to improve and have to change the way we play depending on the opposition but we will and lest we forget will now have lads with an edge on attitude and wanting to step up big time.
We could have changed it around yesterday and tried different things bur for whatever reason we didn't.
What will all the doubters here sat on the 2nd week of June if we go to Wexford Park and come away with a 5 point win?
Will they say fair play or we should win by more because all of our panellists will have the mindset of beating wexford in their heads in wexford park. It wasn good yesterday but row in behind the lads this year when they really need it.

davidx40

usualstripes wrote: »

Topcat32 wrote: »

My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.

Some lads need to get a grip here.
Considering all the players we lost we still have the structure to be very competitive.
The following have not turned into poor players


Eoin Murphy
Paul Murphy
Padraig walsh
Kieran joyce
Conor Fogarty
James cleere
Paddy deegan
Lester ryan
Ollie walsh
Cillian Buckley
Walter Walsh
TJ
Richie leahy
Colin fennelly
Mick fennelly
Richie hogan
Liam blanchfield
Conor martin
Ger aylward
Conor delaney
Evan cody
Joey holden
James maher
Pat lyng
Mark bergin
Sean morrissey
Joe lyng

Plus add in a few on the extended panel for next year

John walsh
Luke scanlon
Tommy walsh

Of course we have to improve and have to change the way we play depending on the opposition but we will and lest we forget will now have lads with an edge on attitude and wanting to step up big time.
We could have changed it around yesterday and tried different things bur for whatever reason we didn't.
What will all the doubters here sat on the 2nd week of June if we go to Wexford Park and come away with a 5 point win?
Will they say fair play or we should win by more because all of our panellists will have the mindset of beating wexford in their heads in wexford park. It wasn good yesterday but row in behind the lads this year when they really need it.

Thats problem most of those players have been beaten by wexford in u21 last few years or so .......over 6 months on from all ireland we still have no fullback centre back

davidx40

usualstripes wrote: »

Topcat32 wrote: »

My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.

Some lads need to get a grip here.
Considering all the players we lost we still have the structure to be very competitive.
The following have not turned into poor players


Eoin Murphy
Paul Murphy
Padraig walsh
Kieran joyce
Conor Fogarty
James cleere
Paddy deegan
Lester ryan
Ollie walsh
Cillian Buckley
Walter Walsh
TJ
Richie leahy
Colin fennelly
Mick fennelly
Richie hogan
Liam blanchfield
Conor martin
Ger aylward
Conor delaney
Evan cody
Joey holden
James maher
Pat lyng
Mark bergin
Sean morrissey
Joe lyng

Plus add in a few on the extended panel for next year

John walsh
Luke scanlon
Tommy walsh

Of course we have to improve and have to change the way we play depending on the opposition but we will and lest we forget will now have lads with an edge on attitude and wanting to step up big time.
We could have changed it around yesterday and tried different things bur for whatever reason we didn't.
What will all the doubters here sat on the 2nd week of June if we go to Wexford Park and come away with a 5 point win?
Will they say fair play or we should win by more because all of our panellists will have the mindset of beating wexford in their heads in wexford park. It wasn good yesterday but row in behind the lads this year when they really need it.

Thats problem most of those players have been beaten by wexford in u21 last few years or so .......over 6 months on from all ireland we still have no fullback centre back

brookville

First of all I'd like to congratulate wexford deserving winners it was like they won an all ireland it's great for them but this time last year clare hammered us and were flying but when the summer came around they were tired so I wouldn't be panicking yet
Waterford didn't bother with the league this year either it's the summer months you want to be peaking not march we'll be thereabouts in the summer when we get everyone back

unrealtime

More heads in the clouds

Cornerback1

dastardly00 wrote: »

Final basic stats from the league campaign...

On average 11.5 points from open play per game. Not a great average!

citykat

v3ttel wrote: »

Stop. Just stop. He has only failed to qualify for 3 All-Ireland finals since 1999.

Let's even pretend he started in 2014. He's won 2 of the last 3 All-Ireland's and lost the other in a final. They'd be building statues of a manager that did that in other counties, yet here you are dismissing him after a relatively poor league campaign.

We can all be critical at times about how he can be slow to make changes, but seriously, I'm embarrassed anyone suggested he should go in the first week of April. It's cringeworthy stuff.

You've zero clue how lucky we have been to have such sustained success. Every team is going to have a dip, it's just remarkable it's taken 18 years for it to happen, even then, I still believe we will be involved at the business end of the championship if we have everyone fit and free of injury.

I'm surprised anybody is actually taking any of this scutter seriously!

unrealtime

Scutter is not an appropriate word for rational argument.

dastardly00

brookville wrote: »

First of all I'd like to congratulate wexford deserving winners it was like they won an all ireland it's great for them but this time last year clare hammered us and were flying but when the summer came around they were tired so I wouldn't be panicking yet
Waterford didn't bother with the league this year either it's the summer months you want to be peaking not march we'll be thereabouts in the summer when we get everyone back

Some people (not just picking on you brookville) seem to be clinging on to the hope that things will change radically during the summer when 'everyone is back'...

Who are we missing?

Ger Aylward had his cruciate ligament injury back in January 2016. That's a long time ago and he hasn't played for KK since. There's no guarantee that: (a) he'll be as good as he was in the near future; (b) he'll make it back on to the team; and (c) he'll be banging in goals.
Then there is Mick Fennelly. He's a colossus for sure (my favourite player), but at this stage he's basically held together with duct tape. We can't rely on Mick to save the day.

Django99

People are on either end of the extremes here.

Of course, Cody should not step down and it's bizarre to suggest it. We have had bad leagues before and come back to win the All Ireland, so have a lot of teams. Equally, doing well in the league doesn't guarantee a good championship.

However, I would be surprised if Kilkenny won an All Ireland this year. In any given game with any given opposition, I would give us a good chance. But to go on a run and win 4 games in a row, I don't see it happening.

The team is too reliant on TJ and Richie. If any team stops the two of them from performing, or if they have an off day, then it's hard to see us beating any of the top teams. The other forwards simply aren't as good as other teams right now. They are young enough though, and may come good over the next few years, but I can't see it happening this year.

Padraig Walsh is not a great solution to the full back problem. He is missed out the field. And I'm not sure I'd have 100% confidence in him as a full back against the likes of Callanan, the Galway forwards or even a good young player like Conor McDonald. It's a very difficult and specialised position. Perhaps though he is the best option we currently have.

Similarly with Cleere, he probably won't be great this year. I would have much more confidence in him if he had 2 experienced, established half backs beside him. But he probably won't.

Some players are wildly inconsistent, Buckley the first that comes to mind. No one is sure where to play him, and he goes in and out of games. Often times his man does a lot of damage too. But when on form, he is terrific. I don't where I'd play him myself though. Probably midfield.

Some players lack some fairly basic skills. Deegan, Wally, Colin, all have awkward striking, and sometimes very very weak off their bad sides. Inter county plays shouldn't really have a bad side.

The team is definitely in transition, and Cody clearly wants to be part of the transition. I think he sees a good future for a lot of the players, but I myself think it will get worse before it gets better.

If we lose to Wexford it's a long road back to the All Ireland semi finals. A tough draw could make for a very hard run.

FrankCummins

Conor Fogarty was a shocking loss yeaterday , Wexford got a rub of the green with a few descissions that went there way Wexford fouled a lot yesterday got away with it they went down handy enough some of there players Hanlon theatrics were hilarious towards the end. This thing of our full back line half back line holding tight does not seem to happen anymore. There is a lot of work to be done as somebody else said they need us.

Topcat32

dastardly00 wrote: »

Some people (not just picking on you brookville) seem to be clinging on to the hope that things will change radically during the summer when 'everyone is back'...

Who are we missing?

Ger Aylward had his cruciate ligament injury back in January 2016. That's a long time ago and he hasn't played for KK since. There's no guarantee that: (a) he'll be as good as he was in the near future; (b) he'll make it back on to the team; and (c) he'll be banging in goals.
Then there is Mick Fennelly. He's a colossus for sure (my favourite player), but at this stage he's basically held together with duct tape. We can't rely on Mick to save the day.

Some people also seem to be going down the we are doomed to failure route based on a league which has been up and down for all teams apart from Wexford, the truth as always will probably be somewhere in between with Kilkenny improving a lot in the summer but not enough to win the All Ireland.

dastardly00

Cornerback1 wrote: »

On average 11.5 points from open play per game. Not a great average!

If you compare this campaign to the 2014-2016 Leagues, points scoring (as in, balls struck over-the-bar/white flag waved) either from open play or from placed balls isn't too much of an issue I think.

Year | Games | Ave. Points (from Play) per Game | Ave. Points (from Placed Balls) per Game | Ave. Total Points per Game
2014 | 8 | 12.9 | 6.1 | 19.0
2015 | 6 | 9.3 | 6.3 | 15.6
2016 | 7 | 11.3 | 7.6 | 18.9
2017 | 6 | 10 | 7.3 | 17.3

I posted over on the main discussion thread for the 2017 National Hurling League about how few goals we've scored this year compared to other years. That is the biggest problem.

dastardly00 wrote: »

5 goals in the 2017 League (3 from play and 2 penalties). Looking back at the 3 previous League campaigns, it's clear to see that we are seriously struggling to score goals (average of less than one goal per game).

Year | Games | Goals (from Play) | Goals (from Placed Balls) | Ave. Goals per Game
2014 | 8 | 17 | 4 | 2.63
2015 | 6 | 7 | 1 | 1.33
2016 | 7 | 11 | 1 | 1.71
2017 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 0.833

And looking strictly at the players who are scoring goals, the difference is Colin Fennelly.
In 2014 he scored 4 goals in 7 matches.
In 2015 he was a part of the Ballyhale team that contested the AI Club Final and he only played the relegation play-off match against Clare.
In 2016 he scored 3 goals in 5 matches.
In 2017 he failed to score in 4 matches.

dastardly00

Topcat32 wrote: »

Some people also seem to be going down the we are doomed to failure route based on a league which has been up and down for all teams apart from Wexford, the truth as always will probably be somewhere in between with Kilkenny improving a lot in the summer but not enough to win the All Ireland.

Nah that's just unrealtime

Hitchens

League titles just don't matter to Kilkenny, or Kerry in Gaelic. Under 21's? Limerick won 3 in a row. Think Clare might have too, but where did it translate into Senior All-Irelands for them?

unrealtime

As I read it for example both Django and Davidx don't appear too sanguine about our prospects

Django99

Hitchens wrote: »

League titles just don't matter to Kilkenny, or Kerry in Gaelic. Under 21's? Limerick won 3 in a row. Think Clare might have too, but where did it translate into Senior All-Irelands for them?

Kilkenny Tipp and Cork lead the roll of honour in league titles and championship titles. In Football, Kerry, Dublin and Mayo lead. Who are the top teams in hurling and football, both currently and historically?

Sometimes league form doesn't translate to championship, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Every single team would prefer to do well in the league than not do well. That's a fact.

Same with underage success. Doesn't always transform to senior success. But that is the exception. Most dominant teams can trace back 10-15 years earlier and they had good under age teams.

Some people seem to think you are better off losing in the league. That's absolutely crazy.