Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Hitchens

Django99 wrote: »

Kilkenny Tipp and Cork lead the roll of honour in league titles and championship titles. In Football, Kerry, Dublin and Mayo lead. Who are the top teams in hurling and football, both currently and historically?

Sometimes league form doesn't translate to championship, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Every single team would prefer to do well in the league than not do well. That's a fact.

Same with underage success. Doesn't always transform to senior success. But that is the exception. Most dominant teams can trace back 10-15 years earlier and they had good under age teams.

Some people seem to think you are better off losing in the league. That's absolutely crazy.

If you bragged about having League medals in Kerry you'd be laughed out of it.

Underage success? Kerry hadn't won a minor All Ireland for years until recently, it never stopped them winning Seniors though.

Django99

Hitchens wrote: »

If you bragged about having League medals in Kerry you'd be laughed out of it.

Underage success? Kerry hadn't won a minor All Ireland for years until recently, it never stopped them winning Seniors though.

It's not about bragging about league medals, we all know the championship is the main competition. But wining the league or performing well in the league is a good indication of how a team will perform in the championship. Obviously there are exceptions but we can only go on what we see and what happens most often.

While Kerry didn't win too many minor All Irelands, they have had a lot of teams come close. They also do very well in schools competitions. Good under age teams will always be a good indicator of the future of the senior team. Again, there are exceptions, like you say Limerick won 3 in a row u21 and didn't go on to win a senior. But that doesn't mean those u21 medals are worthless, nor does it mean having poor under age teams for a long period is not a problem. It is a problem. Offaly are a good example of this.

droppingball

Three worries for me:

Firstly, our use of the spare man was atrocious. Paul Murphy was free and he was not covering space or protecting our full back line, he was half free and half worrying about Paul Morris who was out the field. He was in no mans land. He needed to be hoovering ball in front of our full back line.

Then in the second half Lester went up and marked the loose man and wexford responded by dropping another man free meaning it was 5 on 4 in our full forward line so there was no space. It was just madness no method in our play, like wexford had revolutionary tactics we had never seen. Thankfully we know what to expect in June now.

Secondly, without Padraig and Buckley in the half back line it feels like we have lost our springboard for attacks. There are holes to fill so there was always going to be an element of robbing Peter to pay paul, at this stage we have invested a lot in Padraig at full back so we will probably stick with that.

I thought Joyce looked a lot more mobile earlier in league so I thought we could start him at three and keep half back line deep to protect him. I would have went with Paul Murphy, Joyce full, fogarty corner, Padraig, Buckley centre and cleere half back. That robs us of Conor fogartys engine and hurling but gives us a tigerish mobile corner back and three stickmen in half back line.

I really like the look of Jason cleere, he has loads of hurling, and showed bit of aggression yesterday, bit lacking in pace but wouldn't say he is slow either. He is definitely a 6 long term for us but don't think its fair to throw him in at centre back in his first year. Paddy deegan with Mick fennelly if he can get back would be an industrious midfield. That's the way I would have went but without having gone that way in the league it won't happen.

Thirdly, we have become too nice and passive, other teams backs are constantly niggling our forwards to great effect, we need to be more cynical. Our fans have been giving out in the stands about treatment tj is getting but we were delighted when Jackie was waiting for lar to come out of the dressing room and getting in his face throughout games.

But I see nothing wrong with it, our backs need to be frustrating forwards and getting tighter generally, give the impression that they will even be impeding them as they get back in position.

We have been warned now so we will have fight fire with fire in june and also use the ball and space better and drive low ball to corners more and not play into Shaun Murphys hands.

All that said we are in a position to be competitive and we will be harder to beat in championship after that who knows, every match will be exciting and I know the boys will relish the challenge. Whether they are good enough are can get it together is yet to be seem

Dionysis

KK are not going to win this years All Ireland and will be lucky to make next years. But what Cody does in the next 16/18 months with these young lads will dictate what he wins from 2019 onwards, i.e. One, two, three or four all-irelands. The ability is there at minor since three years ago. Pick a decent young side and drive the hell out of them. Pick the all-star full back of 2019 now, and let him learn, same with centre back, and the other positions. Pick the younger lads who will develop into great players in these positions and give them the chance to get experience over the coming 2 seasons. There are lads there now who simply will never be good enough.

And aside Eddie Brennan needs to push the U-21s hard.

Dionysis

The team of two years time is

Eoin Murphy
Paul Murphy
?????
Tommy Walsh
P Walsh
R Lennon
Cleere
????
Fogarty
?????
Buckley
?????
Richie Hogan
TJ Reid
R Leahy

Subs
Joyce
Fennelly
W Walsh
????
?????

blackcard

My team for the Championship.
E Murphy
P Murphy
K Joyce
C O'Shea
P Walsh
J Cleere
C Buckley
C Fogarty
R Leahy
W Walsh
R Hogan
TJ Reid
G Aylward
C Fennelly
L Blanchfield

Tecking Fypo

Yesterday was very disappointing, not the result but the application and Cody's famous spirit was absent completely. Brainless ball time and time again into the forwards who unbelievably don't get that the FF line is the first line of defence. I watched Wally for a good bit of the game yesterday and couldn't believe the stuff he was getting involved in. Pushing and shoving at every opportunity and not getting on with his job and using his size, I lost count of the amount of times Mick Dempsey ran on to have a word with him. Not taking anything away from Cody but recent history tells me he's unable to put a team out and compete against a side that's set up defensively. The days of 15 on 15 are over and tellingly the only times we've recently competed against teams was when games played out in a traditional fashion. I doubt you'll see too many games like that in this year's championship. But Jaysus lads going down without a fight can't be allowed.

Cornerback1

droppingball wrote: »

Three worries for me:

Firstly, our use of the spare man was atrocious. Paul Murphy was free and he was not covering space or protecting our full back line, he was half free and half worrying about Paul Morris who was out the field. He was in no mans land. He needed to be hoovering ball in front of our full back line.

Then in the second half Lester went up and marked the loose man and wexford responded by dropping another man free meaning it was 5 on 4 in our full forward line so there was no space. It was just madness no method in our play, like wexford had revolutionary tactics we had never seen. Thankfully we know what to expect in June now.

Secondly, without Padraig and Buckley in the half back line it feels like we have lost our springboard for attacks. There are holes to fill so there was always going to be an element of robbing Peter to pay paul, at this stage we have invested a lot in Padraig at full back so we will probably stick with that.

I thought Joyce looked a lot more mobile earlier in league so I thought we could start him at three and keep half back line deep to protect him. I would have went with Paul Murphy, Joyce full, fogarty corner, Padraig, Buckley centre and cleere half back. That robs us of Conor fogartys engine and hurling but gives us a tigerish mobile corner back and three stickmen in half back line.

I really like the look of Jason cleere, he has loads of hurling, and showed bit of aggression yesterday, bit lacking in pace but wouldn't say he is slow either. He is definitely a 6 long term for us but don't think its fair to throw him in at centre back in his first year. Paddy deegan with Mick fennelly if he can get back would be an industrious midfield. That's the way I would have went but without having gone that way in the league it won't happen.

Thirdly, we have become too nice and passive, other teams backs are constantly niggling our forwards to great effect, we need to be more cynical. Our fans have been giving out in the stands about treatment tj is getting but we were delighted when Jackie was waiting for lar to come out of the dressing room and getting in his face throughout games.

But I see nothing wrong with it, our backs need to be frustrating forwards and getting tighter generally, give the impression that they will even be impeding them as they get back in position.

We have been warned now so we will have fight fire with fire in june and also use the ball and space better and drive low ball to corners more and not play into Shaun Murphys hands.

All that said we are in a position to be competitive and we will be harder to beat in championship after that who knows, every match will be exciting and I know the boys will relish the challenge. Whether they are good enough are can get it together is yet to be seem

If Mick Fennelly was available, he'd be a great option at No. 6.

Village87

Mick Fennelly will not be available for 10th of June.

Also another side note for the panel. 8/9 weeks to Wexford match, Time is not on Kilkenny's side

Probably off this week, then 5 weeks back with club with the odd training session here and there. finished club matches 21st May.

Then 10 days to the massive under 21 match v Dublin on 31st May and with 17 u21's on the senior panel it will be hard to have full on training's after the club matches until numbers are back up. Which leaves one weekend the bank hioliday until everyone is fully back.

I fully expect Cody and selectors to analysis Wexford's strategy and have a plan in place come 10th of June.

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

Mick Fennelly will not be available for 10th of June.

Also another side note for the panel. 8/9 weeks to Wexford match, Time is not on Kilkenny's side

Probably off this week, then 5 weeks back with club with the odd training session here and there. finished club matches 21st May.

Then 10 days to the massive under 21 match v Dublin on 31st May and with 17 u21's on the senior panel it will be hard to have full on training's after the club matches until numbers are back up. Which leaves one weekend the bank hioliday until everyone is fully back.

I fully expect Cody and selectors to analysis Wexford's strategy and have a plan in place come 10th of June.

It's probably not a bad thing to happen last sunday we have an idea what to expect but I think it's safe to say wexford are a good bit ahead of us in fitness/touch and they'll put it up to tipp.we'll definitely improve as the year goes on
We've being very unlucky with injuries I heard kevin kelly is having a good bit of trouble with his hamstring and is struggling to get it right.lads like john walsh and aylward are on the way back,cody said yesterday he doesn't know if fennelly will be back so we definitely can't depend on him
It's being a tough league for sure but there's a rebuilding job on weather we like it or not.lads like cleere,deegan leahy and lyng have done ok for their first year
The goals have dried up but I've seen this before in leagues we usually go ok during the summer but lads who can get goals like walsh,bolger,aylward haven't being seen hopefully we can get them right for the summer.
That's it now for 2 months we'll hear this lad is going well and this lad isn't.when is the club back and how many rounds is there?

Village87

First round of Club weekend 21st April 2nd round 7th May and 21st May third round. Under 21s out 10 days later 31st May. Wexford game the 10th June. Need a lot of things to go right over this time.

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

First round of Club weekend 21st April 2nd round 7th May and 21st May third round. Under 21s out 10 days later 31st May. Wexford game the 10th June. Need a lot of things to go right over this time.

Cody knows what he has now but hopefully the 3 rounds of Club go ok and no injuries are picked up.hopefully the injured lads can play i know lennon play for the bridge last week
3 weeks for the seniors to prepare for wexford is probably enough they'll probably go away for a wknd and a weeks heavy training before winding down on the last week
Alot can happen between now and then but I think we'll have to go back to basics and play our players in correct positions
I think joyce is getting a raw deal granted his not the quickest but I'd have him ahead of pender
We've two months to get the likes of walsh,aylward,kevin kelly,rob lennon,john power,leahy,o shea to at least strengthen our squad
The team I'd like to see start June 10th
Murphy
Murphy,padraig,o shea
Cleere,joyce,fogarty
Buckley,leahy
Tj,hogan,wally
John walsh,colin,aylward

We've no one else for three and the fogarty/Buckley experiment worked well enough
Deegan done ok but maybe not tidy enough maybe he could work at 5
If we could put fogarty and buckley at 5 +7 it'd be great but we probably need one of them at midfield

Powerhouse

Hitchens wrote: »

League titles just don't matter to Kilkenny, or Kerry in Gaelic. Under 21's? Limerick won 3 in a row. Think Clare might have too, but where did it translate into Senior All-Irelands for them?

This is interesting. Kerry's last League titles came in 2004, '06 & '09. They won the All Ireland all three years. They now have no League title in eight years and just one All Ireland. It is interesting how their relative lack of success on the All Ireland front is mirrored by a dip in the League success rate.

Kilkenny have won 8 League titles since 2002. Kilkenny have now gone three years without a League final appearance for the first time since pre-2002. It may well be that people will look back on Kilkenny at the current time and see that the same correlation between their League/Championship success is there in reverse.

League titles might not matter to these grand counties you mention, but League titles do appear to matter in the sense that they seem to have a correlation with All Irelands and that matters. With competitions where there are so few counties capable of competing at the very highest level very strong teams who are in the right place re. form, injuries and talent will tend to be competing for everything. I can't imagine too many Dublin footballers will be bragging about their League medals either but they keep finding themselves in League finals all the same.

Meath and Cork footballers haven't won a huge number of League titles but it is interesting that of the last five League finals they won they both played in the All Ireland in three of those five years and won them a few times as well. Neither appears to have even an outside chance of winning the All Ireland this year so it is hardy surprising that they are both in division 2 and failed to get promotion. A big drop from their successful days but reflective of the connection between League and Championship.

Cork hurlers are 12 years without an All Ireland. How many League titles have they won in that time? Zero. Dismiss the lessons of the League reluctantly. If you are good enough you should be going well in it. If you're not it tends to flag problems which emerge down the road.

dubcat51

I still believe we can be there in september.we have enough good players to be contenders.I still think we should keep our half back line as it was last year.my team if everyone is fit
E murphy
P murphy
Joey
J cleere
P walsh
K joyce
C buckley
M fenelly
C fogarty
Walter
Richie
Tj
J walsh
Colin
Ger alwyard
I think joey and joyce have got a raw deal and our half back line has always been our strong line.

Nedflanders02

Looking a head to the championship I think we should stick with Cleere at centre back, as I think in the long run it'll be best us. I'd love to see Padraig Walsh moved out around the middle of the field, but I think they've set it out for him to play full back this year. In attack I think we need some pace in the attack and hopefully Awlyard and John Walsh will get a good run with the clubs and put themselves forward for selection. Midfield could be an interesting position for us, as I said I'd love to see Padraig moved out there, and there could be a good battle for the other position. I think Buckley is more suited to wing back, Deegan has had a good league and could be in pole position. I think Joe Lyng could be an interesting option aswell as he has the size and physicality to do a Mick Fennelly type job in the middle. My team would be:

E Murphy
P Murphy, K Joyce, C O'Shea
C Fogarty, J Cleere, C Buckley
P Walsh, J Lyng
TJ, R Hogan, R Leahy
Awlyard, Wally, J Walsh

brookville

dubcat51 wrote: »

I still believe we can be there in september.we have enough good players to be contenders.I still think we should keep our half back line as it was last year.my team if everyone is fit
E murphy
P murphy
Joey
J cleere
P walsh
K joyce
C buckley
M fenelly
C fogarty
Walter
Richie
Tj
J walsh
Colin
Ger alwyard
I think joey and joyce have got a raw deal and our half back line has always been our strong line.

It looks like they've their mind set on padraig at 3 but he'd be a great addition up around 11...I wouldn't have joey near the team..I'd be hoping the likes of bolger or walsh go well for their club and put their hand up for selection at least there capable of scoring goals

dubcat51

Agree walsh and bolger are goal getters and would love to see them shine with their clubs.imo joey and joyce have been hard done by based on last years final.with mick fennelly in last years team I dont think the backs on the day would have been as badly exposed.1 bad day shouldnt mean wholesale changes.

brookville

dubcat51 wrote: »

Agree walsh and bolger are goal getters and would love to see them shine with their clubs.imo joey and joyce have been hard done by based on last years final.with mick fennelly in last years team I dont think the backs on the day would have been as badly exposed.1 bad day shouldnt mean wholesale changes.

I definitely think joyce is getting a raw deal but I think he'll be back for the summer but as some people have already stated some of our backs are to nice,joey barely touched callinan last year likewise Shane pender on mcgrath.Paul murphy went back for his hurl instead of tripping bubbles before scoring his goal.

Powerhouse

brookville wrote: »

as some people have already stated some of our backs are to nice,joey barely touched callinan last year likewise Shane pender on mcgrath.Paul murphy went back for his hurl instead of tripping bubbles before scoring his goal.

Sledging people is hardly the answer either. :rolleyes:

Django99

The amount of people who put Bolger and John Walsh into their teams and neither of them have a senior appearance for Kilkenny. People relying on Aylward to come back after 18 months out and be just as good as he was when he got injured.

Ceist_Beag

Has Cody much of a track record of giving lads a debut in the Championship? I didn't think so, so I would agree with Django here, why are lads expecting that to change now? Surely the lads he is thinking of starting in the summer are those he tried in the league. Anyone else imho is very unlikely to start (some may make the bench if they're ripping it up for their club but that would be as much as they could hope for).

brookville

Powerhouse wrote: »

Sledging people is hardly the answer either. :rolleyes:

It's not but it didn't stop jj,tommy or hickey in their prime.look at wexford last sunday compared to our backs

dubcat51

Only cameo we have seen from bolger was last 5 min v clare in last years league semi.2 pts in a few minutes looked promising so I would like to see him given a chance to build on that nothing more.john walsh is young but again has that goal getter streak in him.as for sledging davy firz teams have been at that against us for years(hurts no one)but if your hit like tj was give it back twice as hard.anyone involved with any team would say the same.

bruschi

brookville wrote: »

It's not but it didn't stop jj,tommy or hickey in their prime.look at wexford last sunday compared to our backs

from a Wexford point of view, I was more pleased at our lack of fear as much as anything. We werent going to be bossed around Nowlan Park by players in black and amber. The players were setting a marker from the throw in that they were up for it. Granted, it's only a league game and small in the scheme of things, but for many of those players, they have now regularly won in Nowlan park against Kilkenny going from minor through U21. For years, the sight of a black and amber jersey, particularly there, was a foregone conclusion before ever the game starts. The league defeat up there when we lost by 30 something points summed it up at the time. We were at nothing.

But this bunch is different, and there is no fear anymore. Whether or not that will last is another thing, but there is a confidence in our lads that wasnt there before. Davy isnt entirely responsible for that, but he has taken them up another notch. Take O Hanlon and Wally Walsh. School mates all the way in secondary school, played on all the teams together hurling and football, yet once they went on the field Matt was on the front foot and all that went before was out the window once they crossed the white line. James Breen, a nobody in the intercounty scheme of things, didnt phase him at all taking on Reid. Previously our lads would be in awe of the Kilkenny lads and overwhelmed by the occasion. Regardless of the result, I was glad to see them take the game to Kilkenny and be on top in every way they could.

tbiggertycome

As usual I think the reaction is over the top and very pessimistic on here especially by a few and that's their right. Personally I've seen what a lot of these young lads coming through can do and to suggest we don't have the hurlers is just over the top.

Now I'm not stupid enough to think we don't have issues we do and I don't necessarily think we'll be in or win the All Ireland this year. However I firmly believe that we will be there abouts come the business end of the season. I can identify 3 particular issues we have that are holding us back from being AI winners.

1. We need to find or convert a few of our backs into "treacherous b****rds" now that's not as bad as the phrase a friend of mine has been using but I'm talking about a Jackie Tyrrell, Noel Hickey even Mick Fennelly. I mean a lad who no one wants to play against who's hard as nails and will flatten you if you push it too hard. As someone already said our lads are just too nice. Wally is taken to the other extreme and wants to start a row with everyone instead of being smart and picking your battles.

2. Leaders on the pitch the senior players have to realise that when **** isn't going their way they need to change things up. Like Henry or B Hogan in the past. They don't necessarily need to be shouting and roaring but they need to call lads out for mistakes let them know their accountable to their team mates. Why we insisted on driving high ball into a FF line that was swamped for the second half when we should have been passing to midfield and half forwards probing their attack if that didn't work bring it back and shoot from 50-60 yards we have the accuracy from that range something in fact Wexford were very poor at but we still let them in closer. Which brings me on to point 3.

3. The management need to adapt and have a plan B or just modify plan A. I personally would go back to our style of play from the 06 to 09 period. Your FB line and HB line get back inside our 45 when the opposition has the ball. We drag the midfielders back inside the 65 and the wing forwards into midfield. This will make is very hard to score against us and then we break forward together we put the ball forward but to areas we choose like an empty corner for Aylward to chase or a half forward line stacked with players and runners.

1 and 2 aren't too easy to solve but can be worked on. 3 is easy to solve they just have to work harder from 15 back.

My team V Wexford

E Murphy
P Murphy, K Joyce/C Delaney, C O'Shea/J Lyng
C Fogarty, J Cleere, C Buckley
O Walsh, P Walsh
C Fennelly, W Walsh, TJ Reid
R Hogan, L Blanchfield, G Aylward
Which ever back is playing best in the 2 positions gets the chance.
R Hogan would play the Larks of the last few years role and rove around harrie and create.
Wally to stay at CF as a target and distributer to runners
C Fennelly to track back and push forward.

brookville

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Has Cody much of a track record of giving lads a debut in the Championship? I didn't think so, so I would agree with Django here, why are lads expecting that to change now? Surely the lads he is thinking of starting in the summer are those he tried in the league. Anyone else imho is very unlikely to start (some may make the bench if they're ripping it up for their club but that would be as much as they could hope for).

I actually think he has and his certainly not afraid to throw lads into big matches if their showing form.Alan murphy came from nowhere this year to start a big match against tipp.
Mark bergin and blanchfield last year,wally in 12,eddie brennan played very little in 11 and started the final granted he was different he had experience but kevin kelly made his full debut in the final last year so if someone was showing form his not afraid to start them that's why the club matches and the u21 match against dublin is so important

Ceist_Beag

brookville wrote: »

I actually think he has and his certainly not afraid to throw lads into big matches if their showing form.Alan murphy came from nowhere this year to start a big match against tipp.
Mark bergin and blanchfield last year,wally in 12,eddie brennan played very little in 11 and started the final granted he was different he had experience but kevin kelly made his full debut in the final last year so if someone was showing form his not afraid to start them that's why the club matches and the u21 match against dublin is so important

I don't think you're arguing the point made brookville. The point made was that Cody tends not to give a lad a start in a Championship match where he has never started for Kilkenny before (league or championship). Alan Murphy played a league match - not the point I was making. Mark Bergin and Liam Blanchfield both played league matches before last years Championship so were very much part of the squad. Kevin Kelly likewise played league matches before and was part of the squad for 3 years so again this is not the same as bringing someone completely new into the panel and giving them a championship start.

brookville

tbiggertycome wrote: »

As usual I think the reaction is over the top and very pessimistic on here especially by a few and that's their right. Personally I've seen what a lot of these young lads coming through can do and to suggest we don't have the hurlers is just over the top.

Now I'm not stupid enough to think we don't have issues we do and I don't necessarily think we'll be in or win the All Ireland this year. However I firmly believe that we will be there abouts come the business end of the season. I can identify 3 particular issues we have that are holding us back from being AI winners.

1. We need to find or convert a few of our backs into "treacherous b****rds" now that's not as bad as the phrase a friend of mine has been using but I'm talking about a Jackie Tyrrell, Noel Hickey even Mick Fennelly. I mean a lad who no one wants to play against who's hard as nails and will flatten you if you push it too hard. As someone already said our lads are just too nice. Wally is taken to the other extreme and wants to start a row with everyone instead of being smart and picking your battles.

2. Leaders on the pitch the senior players have to realise that when **** isn't going their way they need to change things up. Like Henry or B Hogan in the past. They don't necessarily need to be shouting and roaring but they need to call lads out for mistakes let them know their accountable to their team mates. Why we insisted on driving high ball into a FF line that was swamped for the second half when we should have been passing to midfield and half forwards probing their attack if that didn't work bring it back and shoot from 50-60 yards we have the accuracy from that range something in fact Wexford were very poor at but we still let them in closer. Which brings me on to point 3.

3. The management need to adapt and have a plan B or just modify plan A. I personally would go back to our style of play from the 06 to 09 period. Your FB line and HB line get back inside our 45 when the opposition has the ball. We drag the midfielders back inside the 65 and the wing forwards into midfield. This will make is very hard to score against us and then we break forward together we put the ball forward but to areas we choose like an empty corner for Aylward to chase or a half forward line stacked with players and runners.

1 and 2 aren't too easy to solve but can be worked on. 3 is easy to solve they just have to work harder from 15 back.

My team V Wexford

E Murphy
P Murphy, K Joyce/C Delaney, C O'Shea/J Lyng
C Fogarty, J Cleere, C Buckley
O Walsh, P Walsh
C Fennelly, W Walsh, TJ Reid
R Hogan, L Blanchfield, G Aylward
Which ever back is playing best in the 2 positions gets the chance.
R Hogan would play the Larks of the last few years role and rove around harrie and create.
Wally to stay at CF as a target and distributer to runners
C Fennelly to track back and push forward.

I agree there has being a over reaction to sundays defeat similar to the Clare defeat and a week later when we played tipp the Clare match was forgotten about.we've had a poor enough league but talking to a few players we've done very little hurling and it's the summer we want our players playing well
Waterford,cork clare and dublin have had similar leagues and id say clare and Waterford want to be ready for their first match not bursting a gut trying to win a league
We usually learn from our mistakes and we have a fair idea how wexford will set up in june so no excuses
What's the update on john power,john walsh,mick fennelly?
I know lennon played club recently and kevin kelly is having trouble with his hamstring

robwen

John Power was playing (apparently poorly) for Carrickshock in a challenge against Mount Sion last Sunday evening

tbiggertycome

brookville wrote: »

I agree there has being a over reaction to sundays defeat similar to the Clare defeat and a week later when we played tipp the Clare match was forgotten about.we've had a poor enough league but talking to a few players we've done very little hurling and it's the summer we want our players playing well
Waterford,cork clare and dublin have had similar leagues and id say clare and Waterford want to be ready for their first match not bursting a gut trying to win a league
We usually learn from our mistakes and we have a fair idea how wexford will set up in june so no excuses
What's the update on john power,john walsh,mick fennelly?
I know lennon played club recently and kevin kelly is having trouble with his hamstring

John Power- not sure what his issue is.
John Walsh- is in the senior training panel and U21's. He has been excellent for the U21's all year when not injured, hes scored 2 goals and a handful of points, in most training or a challenge matchs. Not sure why he's not getting a run yet but all in good time I suppose.
Mick Fennelly- heard he was swinging a hurl (just about) a few weeks ago and is running but he's still a ways off by the sounds of it.
R Lennon- not sure why he's dropped off the radar
K Kelly- as you said he's still struggling with hamstring
G Aylward- was faster and stronger than he'd ever been for us before he did his hamstring again. He was deemed not quiet ready for the Wexford game but very close I would say.

Django99

dubcat51 wrote: »

Only cameo we have seen from bolger was last 5 min v clare in last years league semi.2 pts in a few minutes looked promising so I would like to see him given a chance to build on that nothing more.john walsh is young but again has that goal getter streak in him.as for sledging davy firz teams have been at that against us for years(hurts no one)but if your hit like tj was give it back twice as hard.anyone involved with any team would say the same.

Bolger actually did himself no favours that day by the looks of it. One of those points the whole pitch was in front of him and he could have tried to make a goal out of it, but he took the easy point. It was very clear that the other players were not impressed.

brookville

tbiggertycome wrote: »

John Power- not sure what his issue is.
John Walsh- is in the senior training panel and U21's. He has been excellent for the U21's all year when not injured, hes scored 2 goals and a handful of points, in most training or a challenge matchs. Not sure why he's not getting a run yet but all in good time I suppose.
Mick Fennelly- heard he was swinging a hurl (just about) a few weeks ago and is running but he's still a ways off by the sounds of it.
R Lennon- not sure why he's dropped off the radar
K Kelly- as you said he's still struggling with hamstring
G Aylward- was faster and stronger than he'd ever been for us before he did his hamstring again. He was deemed not quiet ready for the Wexford game but very close I would say.

Lennon played for the bridge two weeks ago his on the way back i don't think his the awnser but cody likes him.ger alyward should be back for Glenmore and hopefully walsh will play for the vat.we'll have a fair idea after the first round of Club who we'll have because if the likes of kelly or john walsh aren't fit enough to play club they probably won't make june

brookville

http://www.punditarena.com/gaa/elarkin/eoin-larkin-kilkenny-wexford/

No real suprise here in what larkin is saying,hopefully we'll learn from the other day and have more options on the bench when team injured lads return

unrealtime

The big problem as I see it is that with all the messing that was done management could have learned nought from a highly competitive league. Inability to manage has put us back further than square one.

brookville

unrealtime wrote: »

The big problem as I see it is that with all the messing that was done management could have learned nought from a highly competitive league. Inability to manage has put us back further than square one.

He probably felt the need to try things after the scutching we got in the final.the lads didn't turn into bad players overnight I'm confident we'll be competitive during the summer and the management will have their homework done and learn from the mistakes.it'll be interesting to see will he leave padraig at 3 I think his the best we have so I'd leave him at 3 with murphy at 2 the number 4 probably up for grabs.I'd have cleere,joyce and buckley in the hb line,fogarty and leahy midfield.I think we've enough good forwards to do harm wally,tj,colin,hogan,ger and kevin kelly
Granted the forwards were static during the league and to reliant on tj but but all the others are good proven hurlers

Realt Dearg Sec

unrealtime wrote: »

The big problem as I see it is that with all the messing that was done management could have learned nought from a highly competitive league. Inability to manage has put us back further than square one.

Not sure I follow what you mean by "all the messing that was done". Do you mean trying players in various positions? If they didn't try anything new they'd be rightly slated for that, how could we learn anything if we just persisted with things like Holden in full back that hadn't worked before? We've learned a huge amount from this league. The problem, as you see it, is much simpler I'd imagine: we didn't win enough matches. That's fair enough as it goes but we have learned a vast amount from the defeats.

Some things you could argue we should have known anyway, such as how to feed ball to a full forward line that doesn't have gorta and Henry in it. But we know that Walsh can be a serviceable full back even if it means a loss further out the field. We know Murphy needs a kick up the hole (as do other senior players frankly). We know cleere will become a good quality centre. We know deegan can man the midfield, we know blanchfield struggles to get out in front but we also know he has improved vastly and with the right supply will be a serious threat for points in coming years. We know Richie needs to be played closer in towards goal, we know Buckley is much better at half back than midfield (not the consensus opinion until extremely recently), we know Wally is needed even though we still know what his limitations are. We know that to get back to the top we need about four players from the current u21s to step up and take control of positions in the full back line, midfield, and as a goal hawking forward.

adrian522

Inability to manage? Jesus Wept.

dubcat51

Joey had a bad all ireland so had pender and murphy.for me I would still pick him at 3 with walsh at 5.for me the way wexford played last sunday walsh and cillian would have struck from deep and got 2/3pts which would have kept us right in it and our defence could have sat deeper because we would have been level or ahead.once you go behind against a team with a sweeper space for your forwards is tight while they have space at your end of the pitch.you must make the team with the sweeper change by keeping ahead.

Comerman

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Murphy needs a kick up the hole

Watching him in the last few games he spends a lot of time on his knees and anytime he got ball in hand he seemed to put the head down and drive the ball into the clouds like the big crowd pleasing clearance in the old days instead of finding man which was needed. I'd prefer Padraig at half back surging forward and getting or making scores which he's excellent at. Wally needs to hurl and stop looking for a row, TJ not take the bait and start fighting back instead of beating his marker with his skill and Colin needs to do "something" drastically, his attempt at a pint last Sunday that dropped in front of the keeper was schoolboy stuff. To my "very amateur eye" the whole team was in disarray by the last 10 minutes of the game,most of them didn't seem to know what position they were playing.

1984baby

Comerman wrote: »

Watching him in the last few games he spends a lot of time on his knees and anytime he got ball in hand he seemed to put the head down and drive the ball into the clouds like the big crowd pleasing clearance in the old days instead of finding man which was needed. I'd prefer Padraig at half back surging forward and getting or making scores which he's excellent at. Wally needs to hurl and stop looking for a row, TJ not take the bait and start fighting back instead of beating his marker with his skill and Colin needs to do "something" drastically, his attempt at a pint last Sunday that dropped in front of the keeper was schoolboy stuff. To my "very amateur eye" the whole team was in disarray by the last 10 minutes of the game,most of them didn't seem to know what position they were playing.

Totally agree with the above.
The backs need to start picking out a man and stop just driving it forward aimlessly. Other teams do it at ease, so we should be able to master it.

Comerman

1984baby wrote: »

Totally agree with the above.
The backs need to start picking out a man and stop just driving it forward aimlessly. Other teams do it at ease, so we should be able to master it.

But we were masters of it, very frustrating last Sunday to watch ball after ball drop on the Wexford 21 to be collected by the sweeper and distributed properly.

dubcat51

Sweepers you go around or go over.nowlan pk much tighter than croker also playing against the wind the backs were only landing the ball on the half back line.we needed to get the half backs carrying and scoring pints from outside the blanket.

adrian522

https://twitter.com/BrianCody82/status/849688502971379712

unrealtime

Heads firmly in the clouds. Not far from cloud cuckoo land in fact. The experiments throughout the league have proved worthless and wrong-headed..

dastardly00

dubcat51 wrote: »

Sweepers you go around or go over.nowlan pk much tighter than croker also playing against the wind the backs were only landing the ball on the half back line.we needed to get the half backs carrying and scoring pints from outside the blanket.

Eh... Isn't the pitch in Nowlan Park bigger than the pitch in Croke Park??

Cornerback1

dastardly00 wrote: »

Eh... Isn't the pitch in Nowlan Park bigger than the pitch in Croke Park??

I thought CP would be bigger?

Realt Dearg Sec

unrealtime wrote: »

Heads firmly in the clouds. Not far from cloud cuckoo land in fact. The experiments throughout the league have proved worthless and wrong-headed..

Other than insulting people, what are you suggesting should have been done differently?

Bonniedog

Powerhouse wrote: »

This is interesting. Kerry's last League titles came in 2004, '06 & '09. They won the All Ireland all three years. They now have no League title in eight years and just one All Ireland. It is interesting how their relative lack of success on the All Ireland front is mirrored by a dip in the League success rate.

Kilkenny have won 8 League titles since 2002. Kilkenny have now gone three years without a League final appearance for the first time since pre-2002. It may well be that people will look back on Kilkenny at the current time and see that the same correlation between their League/Championship success is there in reverse.

League titles might not matter to these grand counties you mention, but League titles do appear to matter in the sense that they seem to have a correlation with All Irelands and that matters. With competitions where there are so few counties capable of competing at the very highest level very strong teams who are in the right place re. form, injuries and talent will tend to be competing for everything. I can't imagine too many Dublin footballers will be bragging about their League medals either but they keep finding themselves in League finals all the same.

Meath and Cork footballers haven't won a huge number of League titles but it is interesting that of the last five League finals they won they both played in the All Ireland in three of those five years and won them a few times as well. Neither appears to have even an outside chance of winning the All Ireland this year so it is hardy surprising that they are both in division 2 and failed to get promotion. A big drop from their successful days but reflective of the connection between League and Championship.

Cork hurlers are 12 years without an All Ireland. How many League titles have they won in that time? Zero. Dismiss the lessons of the League reluctantly. If you are good enough you should be going well in it. If you're not it tends to flag problems which emerge down the road.

Good post. There is massive correlation between league and championship success in both games. Might be wrong but off top of head I would say that only Derry footballers and Dublin hurlers did not at least reach an AI semi final after winning a league in last 15 years?


Even 40 years ago, a team like Clare winning hurling league or Roscommon winning football was a pretty rare event given that they weren't particularly successful in championship. Although in fairness Rossies were unfortunate to be good at pinnacle of Kerry/Dubs.

Cornerback1

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Other than insulting people, what are you suggesting should have been done differently?

Management had to try out new players and other players in different positions - that's how they learn what works and what doesn't. A few people said in January it'd be better to sacrifice the league in order to blood new players and try different combinations in different positions. I think it was worthwhile.

brookville

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Other than insulting people, what are you suggesting should have been done differently?

Anyone that watched any hurling last year knew joey is not the awnser full back we needed to try something in that position and padraig has done well bit his badly missed at 5.Murphy at 6 didn't work.fogartys swap with buckley has being up and down they'll probably go back to the way they were
I know it's early but some of the backs look like their confidence has being affected by last year's final.murphy pender and joey have been poor and it's a pity more defenders weren't tried during the league but I don't think it's fair to be always picking on pender or joey some of our fowards have being terrible to date with tj the exception