**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 11 - "Heaven Sent"

Eugene Norman

Clara is dead.

Wibbs

There's still the loose end of Clara having descendants, one of whom she met. Gonna be a real trick give she and her boyfriend are both pushing up daisies.

The_Valeyard

Wibbs wrote: »

There's still the loose end of Clara having descendants, one of whom she met. Gonna be a real trick give she and her boyfriend are both pushing up daisies.

Depends on which Clara it is? Multiple Claras across The Doctors timeline.



Also,


Hats off to Murray Gold, thought it was bit flat this season, but the score in that episode was so beautiful.

Das Kitty

Wibbs wrote: »

There's still the loose end of Clara having descendants, one of whom she met. Gonna be a real trick give she and her boyfriend are both pushing up daisies.

I think "time can be rewritten" covers that one.

I think she's 100% dead.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think "time can be rewritten" covers that one.

I think she's 100% dead.

Also, Clara was supposed to leave last year, alive, but then they got Coleman to stay so it's possible that future Pink was written with that ending in mind.

Unknown Soldier

It's the little things in life.

It always takes me a while to warm to a New Doctor, since I've been watching since the early 80's. (Though a fair bit of that was from behind a cushion):o

They/he/everyone nailed it with this episode, it was almost like the previous episodes this season were fodder for this one and hopefully the next.

I won't lie, I actually went "Squee!" in my head when it ended and I saw the trailer for next week.

I'm still not sure if DW is going the direction it should for a "wider audience" but man they nailed it for me

So..yeah.. Squee!

McLoughlin

What do people think when The Doctor said The Hybrid is me.

Was he rathering to himself (me as in me) or Ashildr (me as in her)

Das Kitty

McLoughlin wrote: »

What do people think when The Doctor said The Hybrid is me.

Was he rathering to himself (me as in me) or Ashildr (me as in her)

I would love if it was himself.

Okay I got there was some kinda loop and the skulls were all his once I saw the clothes by the fire but I did NOT see what was gonna happen with the diamond wall. That must be why he kept leaving shovels maybe. I loved the story he was telling getting a bit more and more revealed on each loop

I'm a bit confused on the confession dial thing though
I thought it was a thing for after you died instead of being transported into it and freaked out for eternity

jasonb

bluewolf wrote: »

Okay I got there was some kinda loop and the skulls were all his once I saw the clothes by the fire but I did NOT see what was gonna happen with the diamond wall. That must be why he kept leaving shovels maybe. I loved the story he was telling getting a bit more and more revealed on each loop

I'm a bit confused on the confession dial thing though
I thought it was a thing for after you died instead of being transported into it and freaked out for eternity

Yeah, but if he kept leaving shovels, he could have used them, instead of his fists!

As for the Confession Dial, maybe it's like filling our your Will, you have to put something into it, and now he has?

J.

Wibbs

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think "time can be rewritten" covers that one.

Aye DK, or maybe more likely in the production meetings; don't mention the war, they'll forget about it, timey wimey and all that. *five cups of coffee later*… here, maybe we can shove her into the same universe Rose is in?

SparklersJo

But we still don't know who asked Ashildr to transport him into the confession dial, do we?

And Gallifrey was in some frozen alternate time/reality, wasn't it? So how did the confession dial end up there for him to come out of it in Gallifrey? Does that mean Gallifrey is back? Or is he gone to it in the alternate time/reality?

The confession dial was kinda cool - typical Timelord technology - it was bigger on the inside

Orion

SparklersJo wrote: »

But we still don't know who asked Ashildr to transport him into the confession dial, do we?

Maybe he did/will?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Do we think Missy having his confession dial at the start of the series has anything at all to do with this or was that just them introducing the concept of the confession dial?

pixelburp

So... with the dust settled, anyone else finding themselves feeling a little distanced & less invested with the Doctor now? I mean whatever about the notion of manipulating the timeline to bring someone back from the dead, I can't shake the feeling that this feels more a case where the 'original' very definitely died, with all the other (billions of) doctors merely being copies, albeit identical by genetics and memory.

Also have to give props after the fact for the score: I've never thought much of Murray Gold's work generally, but that score was both cinematic and idiosyncratic; perfect for the setting & direction in general.

Also also, it's one of the few episodes that genuinely made me jump, the point in question being when the Doctor opened the door from the garden.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

^ I did wonder about that.... is he still actually the Doctor who was with Clara and Rigsy last week or is he just a billionth copy of him? Probably better not to ask.

Eugene Norman

pixelburp wrote: »

So... with the dust settled, anyone else finding themselves feeling a little distanced & less invested with the Doctor now? I mean whatever about the notion of manipulating the timeline to bring someone back from the dead, I can't shake the feeling that this feels more a case where the 'original' very definitely died, with all the other (billions of) doctors merely being copies, albeit identical by genetics and memory.

Also have to give props after the fact for the score: I've never thought much of Murray Gold's work generally, but that score was both cinematic and idiosyncratic; perfect for the setting & direction in general.

Also also, it's one of the few episodes that genuinely made me jump, the point in question being when the Doctor opened the door from the garden.

No more dead than a star trek transport I suppose.

Eugene Norman

For what it's worth the copy coming out each time was an original ( or the first copy - hence thinking he had just left Clara).

Angron

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Do we think Missy having his confession dial at the start of the series has anything at all to do with this or was that just them introducing the concept of the confession dial?

I'd say we'll find out one way or the other in the finale. If it's not mentioned, I'd take it just to be a reason to introduce it.

I really enjoyed that episode, it was interesting to have such a minimalist cast.

Endaaaagh

CastorTroy wrote: »

Not to nitpick, but why didn't room 12 reset?

I'm curious about this too? Did I miss some explanation about room 12?

Penn

Eugene Norman wrote: »

For what it's worth the copy coming out each time was an original ( or the first copy - hence thinking he had just left Clara).

Exactly. Each Doctor was the real original Doctor. They were all no more copies than the first one who first teleported into the tower.

In order to get from Point A (the hidden London street with Ashildr) to Point B (the tower in the confession dial), he essentially had to be transformed into matter and the chamber in the tower reassembled that matter into the Doctor. But each time he died and came back, the chamber reset and reassembled the same matter into the Doctor. So each Doctor that stepped out of the chamber was as much the original as the first one.

Or at least, that's how I'm justifying it.

Das Kitty

Well that's the normal question around the theory of transportation in sci-fi. Is it really you or just a copy? Did the real you get destroyed? What makes a person the "real" one?

No different from the Vortex manipulators they've used before in the show.

Penn

Endaaaagh wrote: »

I'm curious about this too? Did I miss some explanation about room 12?

Some things throughout didn't reset. How he left his clothes by the fire, "I AM IN 12", his skulls in the water, "BIRD", etc

The Doctor we saw for most of the episode wasn't the first one there. For all the above to have been there, he had to have already gone through the 'loop' at least once. So it seems he was able to have some influence or for some of the items not to reset.

Endaaaagh

Penn wrote: »

Some things throughout didn't reset. How he left his clothes by the fire, "I AM IN 12", his skulls in the water, "BIRD", etc

The Doctor we saw for most of the episode wasn't the first one there. For all the above to have been there, he had to have already gone through the 'loop' at least once. So it seems he was able to have some influence or for some of the items not to reset.

So in other words "wibbily wobbily timey wimey stuff"

pixelburp

Das Kitty wrote: »

Well that's the normal question around the theory of transportation in sci-fi. Is it really you or just a copy? Did the real you get destroyed? What makes a person the "real" one?

No different from the Vortex manipulators they've used before in the show.

Well yeah, there is that, but I guess because the concept was so directly & explicitly addressed, it kinda bullied its way to the forefront of my mind.

And I think the question is doubly valid when the guy that appeared on the other side died; so while conceptually you could argue the notion of a transporter that simply ... well, transports a person from A to B via science-magic,, in this case the person died at B. So what does that make the person that came out again from the device? It can't possibly be the original, cos we saw him die.

(Then again, we didn't see him die the first time of course: the 'first' Doctor remarked the stars were about 7000 years out of sync already, so he had already died thousands, millions of times. God the more I think about this episode, the more depressing it becomes - it's the most morbid and death-ridden episode ever produced)

Das Kitty

pixelburp wrote: »

Well yeah, there is that, but I guess because the concept was so directly & explicitly addressed, it kinda bullied its way to the forefront of my mind.

And I think the question is doubly valid when the guy that appeared on the other side died; so while conceptually you could argue the notion of a transporter that simply ... well, transports a person from A to B via science-magic,, in this case the person died at B. So what does that make the person that came out again from the device? It can't possibly be the original, cos we saw him die.

(Then again, we didn't see him die the first time of course: the 'first' Doctor remarked the stars were about 7000 years out of sync already, so he had already died thousands, millions of times. God the more I think about this episode, the more depressing it becomes - it's the most morbid and death-ridden episode ever produced)

It is so very very dark. I love it.

Eugene Norman

pixelburp wrote: »

Well yeah, there is that, but I guess because the concept was so directly & explicitly addressed, it kinda bullied its way to the forefront of my mind.

And I think the question is doubly valid when the guy that appeared on the other side died; so while conceptually you could argue the notion of a transporter that simply ... well, transports a person from A to B via science-magic,, in this case the person died at B. So what does that make the person that came out again from the device? It can't possibly be the original, cos we saw him die.

(Then again, we didn't see him die the first time of course: the 'first' Doctor remarked the stars were about 7000 years out of sync already, so he had already died thousands, millions of times. God the more I think about this episode, the more depressing it becomes - it's the most morbid and death-ridden episode ever produced)

It's still the original doctor. His only memory is leaving Clara going through most of what we see and then getting to room 12 and exiting. As far as that doctor, the last one is concerned, it was pretty easy. As for the resets the castle was reset by telling the truth not by the doctor doing his magic with the transformer.

The clothes are harder to explain because he found them after his first reset, as I recall.

Eugene Norman

The real question is how the first doctor worked anything out. He wouldn't have hints from the other clones and the stars would be correct.

FloatingVoter

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The real question is how the first doctor worked anything out. He wouldn't have hints from the other clones and the stars would be correct.

Well, there was a chicken and there was an egg. Then endless beatings from endless Christian Brothers about such stuff.....

Medieval philosophers were accused of wasting their time speculating upon how many angels would fit on the head of a pin. We've come a long way since, haven't we.

Angron

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The real question is how the first doctor worked anything out. He wouldn't have hints from the other clones and the stars would be correct.

Well each copy only died once they were touched by the monster, an event that only happened once the Doctor figured it out, and reasoned he would be recreated. So perhaps the first one figured it all out, he just took a bit longer than the rest to get there and set the ground work for the rest to get it quicker.

Or it's just a paradox, and it'll never really be explained.