**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 11 - "Heaven Sent"

Penn

Eugene Norman wrote: »

For what it's worth the copy coming out each time was an original ( or the first copy - hence thinking he had just left Clara).

Exactly. Each Doctor was the real original Doctor. They were all no more copies than the first one who first teleported into the tower.

In order to get from Point A (the hidden London street with Ashildr) to Point B (the tower in the confession dial), he essentially had to be transformed into matter and the chamber in the tower reassembled that matter into the Doctor. But each time he died and came back, the chamber reset and reassembled the same matter into the Doctor. So each Doctor that stepped out of the chamber was as much the original as the first one.

Or at least, that's how I'm justifying it.

Das Kitty

Well that's the normal question around the theory of transportation in sci-fi. Is it really you or just a copy? Did the real you get destroyed? What makes a person the "real" one?

No different from the Vortex manipulators they've used before in the show.

Penn

Endaaaagh wrote: »

I'm curious about this too? Did I miss some explanation about room 12?

Some things throughout didn't reset. How he left his clothes by the fire, "I AM IN 12", his skulls in the water, "BIRD", etc

The Doctor we saw for most of the episode wasn't the first one there. For all the above to have been there, he had to have already gone through the 'loop' at least once. So it seems he was able to have some influence or for some of the items not to reset.

Endaaaagh

Penn wrote: »

Some things throughout didn't reset. How he left his clothes by the fire, "I AM IN 12", his skulls in the water, "BIRD", etc

The Doctor we saw for most of the episode wasn't the first one there. For all the above to have been there, he had to have already gone through the 'loop' at least once. So it seems he was able to have some influence or for some of the items not to reset.

So in other words "wibbily wobbily timey wimey stuff"

pixelburp

Das Kitty wrote: »

Well that's the normal question around the theory of transportation in sci-fi. Is it really you or just a copy? Did the real you get destroyed? What makes a person the "real" one?

No different from the Vortex manipulators they've used before in the show.

Well yeah, there is that, but I guess because the concept was so directly & explicitly addressed, it kinda bullied its way to the forefront of my mind.

And I think the question is doubly valid when the guy that appeared on the other side died; so while conceptually you could argue the notion of a transporter that simply ... well, transports a person from A to B via science-magic,, in this case the person died at B. So what does that make the person that came out again from the device? It can't possibly be the original, cos we saw him die.

(Then again, we didn't see him die the first time of course: the 'first' Doctor remarked the stars were about 7000 years out of sync already, so he had already died thousands, millions of times. God the more I think about this episode, the more depressing it becomes - it's the most morbid and death-ridden episode ever produced)

Das Kitty

pixelburp wrote: »

Well yeah, there is that, but I guess because the concept was so directly & explicitly addressed, it kinda bullied its way to the forefront of my mind.

And I think the question is doubly valid when the guy that appeared on the other side died; so while conceptually you could argue the notion of a transporter that simply ... well, transports a person from A to B via science-magic,, in this case the person died at B. So what does that make the person that came out again from the device? It can't possibly be the original, cos we saw him die.

(Then again, we didn't see him die the first time of course: the 'first' Doctor remarked the stars were about 7000 years out of sync already, so he had already died thousands, millions of times. God the more I think about this episode, the more depressing it becomes - it's the most morbid and death-ridden episode ever produced)

It is so very very dark. I love it.

Eugene Norman

pixelburp wrote: »

Well yeah, there is that, but I guess because the concept was so directly & explicitly addressed, it kinda bullied its way to the forefront of my mind.

And I think the question is doubly valid when the guy that appeared on the other side died; so while conceptually you could argue the notion of a transporter that simply ... well, transports a person from A to B via science-magic,, in this case the person died at B. So what does that make the person that came out again from the device? It can't possibly be the original, cos we saw him die.

(Then again, we didn't see him die the first time of course: the 'first' Doctor remarked the stars were about 7000 years out of sync already, so he had already died thousands, millions of times. God the more I think about this episode, the more depressing it becomes - it's the most morbid and death-ridden episode ever produced)

It's still the original doctor. His only memory is leaving Clara going through most of what we see and then getting to room 12 and exiting. As far as that doctor, the last one is concerned, it was pretty easy. As for the resets the castle was reset by telling the truth not by the doctor doing his magic with the transformer.

The clothes are harder to explain because he found them after his first reset, as I recall.

Eugene Norman

The real question is how the first doctor worked anything out. He wouldn't have hints from the other clones and the stars would be correct.

FloatingVoter

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The real question is how the first doctor worked anything out. He wouldn't have hints from the other clones and the stars would be correct.

Well, there was a chicken and there was an egg. Then endless beatings from endless Christian Brothers about such stuff.....

Medieval philosophers were accused of wasting their time speculating upon how many angels would fit on the head of a pin. We've come a long way since, haven't we.

Angron

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The real question is how the first doctor worked anything out. He wouldn't have hints from the other clones and the stars would be correct.

Well each copy only died once they were touched by the monster, an event that only happened once the Doctor figured it out, and reasoned he would be recreated. So perhaps the first one figured it all out, he just took a bit longer than the rest to get there and set the ground work for the rest to get it quicker.

Or it's just a paradox, and it'll never really be explained.

Art_Wolf

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Medieval philosophers were accused of wasting their time speculating upon how many angels would fit on the head of a pin. We've come a long way since, haven't we.

Heh, this is more of a modern interpretation of an older question, most widely known as the Ship of Theseus paradox

As to how the other rooms were setup, I assumed he designed the whole thing that way - it was the confession dial, which ties in with the creature

The_Valeyard

I watched it again this evening


And replayed that sequence couple of times.

tritium

Really good episode

Now I'm trying to figure what's been set up for the second part. The sisterhood aren't on gallifrey so whats their link with ashildr? Seems likely it would take someone with timelord knowledge to use the confession dial like that

dori_dormer

Does it mean the first doctor ran around naked for a bit so he could leave his clothes by the fire?

Also, I'd just write room 12 in the sand in from of the teleporter, so he'd see it when he got out, and leave the shovel in front of room 12's door.

Also why didn't he confess in room 12, run to the other side, confess, then have 82 minutes hacking at the wall.

I know I know, there's always logic and learning involved for him to figure out that he can come back etc


Mannequin Clara was creepy!

WomanSkirtFan8

WOW!

Absolutely brilliant episode from start to finish! Capaldi was absolutely superb! Never doubted that the doctor would get back to Gallifrey! Can't wait to see the series finale on Saturday!

10/10:)

WomanSkirtFan8

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Clara is dead.

yes clara is most deffinately dead. It was her spirit that the doctor was speaking to.:)

Penn

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

yes clara is most deffinately dead. It was her spirit that the doctor was speaking to.:)

Well, not so much her spirit, rather the Doctor's memories and interpretations of what she would say to him.

WomanSkirtFan8

Penn wrote: »

Well, not so much her spirit, rather the Doctor's memories and interpretations of what she would say to him.

that

yes thats what i meant. anyway the finale looks like its going to be an absolutely cracker of an episode.:)

Mr.Saturn

SparklersJo wrote: »

But we still don't know who asked Ashildr to transport him into the confession dial, do we?

And Gallifrey was in some frozen alternate time/reality, wasn't it? So how did the confession dial end up there for him to come out of it in Gallifrey? Does that mean Gallifrey is back? Or is he gone to it in the alternate time/reality?

The confession dial was kinda cool - typical Timelord technology - it was bigger on the inside

The exact wording from the 50th was that Gallifrey would be suspended in a pocket universe. It turns out it was literally a pocket.

Sleepy

I loved the Tardis bits but they confused the hell out of the kids. They reminded me of Hannibal Lecter's use of his Memory Palace.

martingriff

I saw this somewhere but has anyone heard about the next possible doctor?

as this is Capaldi final season as the doctor that they may show the next doctor in the Christmas special (something like Neil Morrisey) but will be the actual next doctor?

Penn

I've rewatched this episode numerous times since it was aired. It's just an utterly, utterly fantastic bit of television.

Antar Bolaeisk

martingriff wrote: »

I saw this somewhere but has anyone heard about the next possible doctor?

as this is Capaldi final season as the doctor that they may show the next doctor in the Christmas special (something like Neil Morrisey) but will be the actual next doctor?

Everyone knows the next doctor will be middle-eastern looking, with an African accent, of Asian descent and non-binary gender who is wheelchair bound.

pixelburp

Penn wrote: »

I've rewatched this episode numerous times since it was aired. It's just an utterly, utterly fantastic bit of television.

Arguably one of the best, if not the best, episode of the show since it came back in 2005. And definitely an inspired piece of TV, regardless of genre. Still think the 'original' Doctor is technically dead and we're just now following a many-billionth copy