2016 RTE Drama: Rebellion - no spoilers please (mod warning in post #1)

Birdie Num Num

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The mood started to turn in days, largely because of the executions. When the detainees were released from Frongoch (in Wales) a year later they were welcomed back in Dublin as heroes.

One of the great what-ifs of Irish history is how things might have played out if the rebel leaders had not been executed in such a summary fashion.

Would RTE have even made a series called 'Rebellion'?

josephryan1989

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

One man's freedom fighter, etc...

Rubbish.
A terrorist is not fighting for freedom so he/she by definition is not a freedom fighter.
A freedom fighter likewise is not a terrorist if he/she is fighting for a just cause.
Terrorists do not fight for freedom.
They fight for undemocratic values.

You clearly don't know anything about the 1916 Rising if you think it is terrorism to fight for democracy and liberty.

LordSutch

tomwaterford wrote: »

Pretty sure it wasn't a drip feed of executions it was a relative quick blood letting soon after the rising as well not years later??

It was the fact that maxwell had a channel capable of taking 60+ bodies for execution that turned the opinion and orders had to come from London for him to stop the executions ...much to late then :pac:

I seem to remember hearing in the radio from some historian, that the executions were carried out over the space of ten days, or two weeks maybe? Anyway, it wasn't within a few days as somebody else posted.

The thing is, when you see what the rebels did, from the execution (murder) of the 1st policeman outside Dublin castle, to the total carnage and mayhem, with Dublin laying in ruins. What should the authorities have done? Specially as the rebels promised a German invasion through the back door!

The 1st World War mentality "of the time" would have been to execute traitors I guess?

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

The thing is, when you see what the rebels did, from the execution (murder) of the 1st policeman outside Dublin castle,

The 1st World War mentality "of the time" would have been to execute traitors I guess?

^

Disgruntled Badger

LordSutch wrote:

The rebels are coming across as psychopathic murderers who had little sway with the public at large. No wonder they are verbally abused by the public as their shambles ended and they are led away...

LordSutch wrote:

That poor unarmed policeman at the start! Anyone know who shot him?

The depiction of Sean Connelly was relatively accurate. He did shoot the RIC man, but through the gates. They didn't know the gates were unlocked actually and ran to city hall as depicted. Connelly himself is thought to have been the first rebel to die shortly after.

josephryan1989

LordSutch wrote: »

Surely that's how they would been seen as at the time!

You can even see the hostile attitude from Dubliners towards the rebels in the drama. The actions of the rebels is fairly ruthless and not in tune with Irish society.

It was only after the drip drip feed of their executions that they became heroes, several years later.

They were fighting for a free democratic republic so by definition that weren't terrorists.

The British had suspended Home Rule and usurped the democratic will of the majoity.

What other option was there but to rebel?

How could anyone believe 1916 was an act of terrorism?

Truly bizarre!

Strazdas

Thought that was a brilliant episode myself. It illustrated how chaotic that opening day of the Rising was.

Good to see that the rebels are being shown in a very even handed manner : a few fanatics and cold blooded killers in their ranks (we know for a fact that they shot innocent civilians dead at various points around the city and not just looters either).

Looks like Mr Hammond's missus is well aware that he is giving May one.

josephryan1989

Strazdas wrote: »

Thought that was a brilliant episode myself. It illustrated how chaotic that opening day of the Rising was.

Good to see that the rebels are being shown in a very even handed manner : a few fanatics and cold blooded killers in their ranks (we know for a fact that they shot innocent civilians dead at various points around the city and not just looters either).

Looks like Mr Hammond's missus is well aware that he is giving May one.

The British had usurped the democratic will when they suspended Home Rule.

What other option was there but to declare a Republic and kick the British out?

What was wrong with shooting looters?

Were you upset by the shhoting of the policeman at the gate? In wartime an enemy combatant is fair game of he resists.

You are basically calling the man and women who fought for your freedom terrorists?

Strazdas

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Rubbish.
A terrorist is not fighting for freedom so he/she by definition is not a freedom fighter.
A freedom fighter likewise is not a terrorist if he/she is fighting for a just cause.
Terrorists do not fight for freedom.
They fight for undemocratic values.

You clearly don't know anything about the 1916 Rising if you think it is terrorism to fight for democracy and liberty.

Ireland was well and truly a democracy in 1916. There were free elections and the Home Rule Party was the largest by far. Even Sinn Fein came to be the biggest party totally fairly and legitimately under the British electoral system.

LordSutch

josephryan1989 wrote: »

They were fighting for a free democratic republic so by definition that weren't terrorists.

The British had suspended Home Rule and usurped the democratic will of the majoity.

What other option was there but to rebel?

How could anyone believe 1916 was an act of terrorism?

Truly bizarre!

In the context of the RTE drama, the rebels seemed totally out of kilter with the mood of the time. Just listen to the many negative comments made about them by Dubliners. The citizens of Ireland were taken by surprise, and with the worry that the Germans may be involved too! The Rebels themselves in the drama are portrayed as dreamers, radicals, and blood lusting criminals, with some innocents thrown in too.

If you have any complaints about their portrayal, I suggest you email RTE.

josephryan1989

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The mood started to turn in days, largely because of the executions. When the detainees were released from Frongoch (in Wales) a year later they were welcomed back in Dublin as heroes.

One of the great what-ifs of Irish history is how things might have played out if the rebel leaders had not been executed in such a summary fashion.

The mood changed when it emerged that British soldiers had massacred civilians by shooting and bayoneting in Dublin and the British government tried to introduce conscription.
The rebel leaders were executed after a joke trials.

Strazdas

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The British had usurped the democratic will when they suspended Home Rule.

What other option was there but to declare a Republic and kick the British out?

What was wrong with shooting looters?

Were you upset by the shhoting of the policeman at the gate? In wartime an enemy combatant is fair game of he resists.

You are basically calling the man and women who fought for your freedom terrorists?

Even in a "war" situation, the shooting of unarmed civilians may well constitute a war crime. I'm not excusing the British here by the way, they too killed a lot of civilians that week (it's not often realised but more Dublin civilians died in the Rising than rebels or British soldiers combined).

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The mood changed when it emerged that British soldiers had massacred civilians by shooting and bayoneting in Dublin and the British government tried to introduce conscription.
The rebel leaders were executed after a joke trials.

I thought conscription wasn't brought in in Ireland until 1918?

Disgruntled Badger

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote:

I thought conscription wasn't brought in in Ireland until 1918?

Conscription was never brought in. The threat of it however was enough to galvanise shifting public opinion against British rule, much more so than the 1916 executions.

josephryan1989

Strazdas wrote: »

Even in a "war" situation, the shooting of unarmed civilians may well constitute a war crime. I'm not excusing the British here by the way, they too killed a lot of civilians that week (it's not often realised but more Dublin civilians died in the Rising than rebels or British soldiers combined).

Martial law allows for shooting looters or people who disobey curfew. That's not a war crime.

Most of the civilian dead were killed by shelling or when they ventured out and were hit by stray bullets during firefights.

josephryan1989

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I thought conscription wasn't brought in in Ireland until 1918?

Did I say otherwise?

Strazdas

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Martial law allows for shooting looters or people who disobey curfew. That's not a war crime.

Most of the civilian dead were killed by shelling or when they ventured out and were hit by stray bullets during firefights.

Indeed that accounted for the majority of deaths but we know that looters were shot dead by the rebels and that other civilians were killed when they actually attempted to storm rebel barricades.

josephryan1989

LordSutch wrote: »

In the context of the RTE drama, the rebels seemed totally out of kilter with the mood of the time. Just listen to the many negative comments made about them by Dubliners. The citizens of Ireland were taken by surprise, and with the worry that the Germans may be involved too! The Rebels themselves in the drama are portrayed as dreamers, radicals, and blood lusting criminals, with some innocents thrown in too.

If you have any complaints about their portrayal, I suggest you email RTE.

Blood lusting criminals? When was that?

Strazdas

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Conscription was never brought in. The threat of it however was enough to galvanise shifting public opinion against British rule, much more so than the 1916 executions.

The proposed conscription was because the War was starting to go against the British in early 1918 and it looked like they were actually going to lose.

josephryan1989

Strazdas wrote: »

Ireland was well and truly a democracy in 1916. There were free elections and the Home Rule Party was the largest by far. Even Sinn Fein came to be the biggest party totally fairly and legitimately under the British electoral system.

Rubbish.
Home Rule was repeatedly blocked denying Ireland it's own parliament and then suspended when WW1 broke out.
Redmond betrayed Irish freedom when he encouraged a generation of Irishmen to die in the trenches.
The British government was strong-armed by the British military who threatened mutiny by a bigoted Unionist minority and by the Tories who wanted to crush Irish separatism.
The rebellion was only option left of Ireland was to be free.

Disgruntled Badger

josephryan1989 wrote:

The mood changed when it emerged that British soldiers had massacred civilians by shooting and bayoneting in Dublin and the British government tried to introduce conscription. The rebel leaders were executed after a joke trials.

Sorry but there is no record of any massacre of civilians by British forces during or after the rising. Most of the troops, as accurately portrayed in the RTE drama, we're Irish and would not have been engaged in reprisals against a population that was against the rising. Looters were however shot. But by both sides.

It's hard to say the trials were a joke as there weren't really any trials. The city was under martial law, again shown in the drama tonight. The rebels had taken up arms against the crown in time of war, and the punishment for doing so was execution. London actually interceded in stopping the executions and most of the rebels got relatively lenient sentences afterwards.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Did I say otherwise?

I was asking a question. I'll think twice before doing it again.

LordSutch

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Blood lusting criminals? When was that?

Padraig Pearse's St Enda's bomb factory, the shooting dead of the unarmed policeman, the menacing shots fired at the fella with the beer barrel (who shouts back at them) "I hope the Brits kill all of ya", the woman shot at the barracade by the Rebels, the general threat & menace made to anyone who got in their way, the cold blooded belief that it was their will that was going to be carried out, no matter what. All in the knowledge that they would probably all die anyway! They (the rebels) don't come out in a very good light in the Drama.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

LordSutch wrote: »

Padraig Pearse's St Enda's bomb factory, the shooting dead of the unarmed policeman, the menacing shots fired at the fella with the beer barrel (who shouts back at them) "I hope the Brits kill all of ya", the woman shot at the barracade by the Rebels, the general threat & menace made to anyone who got in their way, the cold blooded belief that it was their will that was going to be carried out, no matter what. All in the knowledge that they would probably all die anyway! They (the rebels) don't come out in a very good light in the Drama.

Don't forget the battalion of child soldiers!

Strazdas

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Rubbish.
Home Rule was repeatedly blocked denying Ireland it's own parliament and then suspended when WW1 broke out.
Redmond betrayed Irish freedom when he encouraged a generation of Irishmen to die in the trenches.
The British government was strong-armed by the British military who threatened mutiny by a bigoted Unionist minority and by the Tories who wanted to crush Irish separatism.
The rebellion was only option left of Ireland was to be free.

Everyone assumed WW1 would be over by Christmas 1914 (people imagined it would be a lightning quick infantry war and the thought of trench warfare never even occurred to them). Redmond assumed Home Rule would be introduced in 1915 once the war was concluded and sending the Irish Volunteers off to fight was sort of an insurance policy.

It's still a fact that Sinn Fein became the biggest party in Ireland under the British electoral system even though they were proposing breaking free of the union.

Corholio

Deleted User wrote: »

We're a bit too quick to knock our own. Same on the love/hate thread and same on the Charlie thread.

I'd say if the Wire was made in Ireland by RTE we'd still bitch about it.

'We' are also too quick to automatically think it's some form of begrudgery from anyone who criticises anything Irish. Any criticism of such seems to be always followed by it. It's an easy antidote to anything you don't agree with.

gormdubhgorm

crushproof wrote: »

Tis no Indiana Jones :P

Seriously though, after the promising first episode this was a shambles. The love triangle scenes were far too drawn out, doubt many people are watching for the soap opera aspect of it all.
The roof scenes and scuffles around the castle were done well, especially the reaction of when the cop was shot - it's exactly how the young lads would have been.
But the looting, taking of the GPO and other scenes were extremely amateurish. They did absolutely nothing to O'Connell Street / GPO apart from stick that feckin Oldhausen tram outside. In reality the street would have been filled with crowds, dirty with horseshít etc and all the pans of glass would have been smashed by the rebels. Instead, every shot showed a pristine GPO. And again, double yellow lines, modern street signs and cables all over the place. Where were all the extras for the looting?! And were tenement dwellers really that clean?!

Doubting the rest of the series will be any good now. I don't want to hear "oh well what do you expect, it's an Irish production" - so what? Anyone could spot some of the flaws listed above. Some of the actors are putting alot of effort in, but they're let down by the lazy directing and production. Comes across as a rushed job. A real shame considering many of us had hoped for a showpiece series that could be shown abroad.

I thought it was a shambles after the first episode as a result I am reluctant to watch any more episodes. It was Downton with the threat of guns as dull as dishwater. Although I thought the costume and sets looked good in the 1st episode.The second episode does seems to be worse judging by your comments.

Edit: Now Watched half of it so far. I did not spot the Double yellow lines. But the story seems to drag trying to make up an emotional a backdrop story. It is a bit patchy with both believable acting mixed with hammed up acting.

KingBrian2

I noticed that the British officer at the Castle Charles was it just wanted to be with his partner and back in Britain not fighting a bunch of rebels in Dublin. He would have had his wish if the Brits had decided to pack up and go at that stage. No point prioritising on a city that does not want British protection when a war is going on in Belgium and France.

Disgruntled Badger

josephryan1989 wrote:

Rubbish. Home Rule was repeatedly blocked denying Ireland it's own parliament and then suspended when WW1 broke out. Redmond betrayed Irish freedom when he encouraged a generation of Irishmen to die in the trenches. The British government was strong-armed by the British military who threatened mutiny by a bigoted Unionist minority and by the Tories who wanted to crush Irish separatism. The rebellion was only option left of Ireland was to be free.

I think you are being a little harsh on Redmond. I don't think he encouraged anyone to die. Fight would be more accurate. And it was precisely to achieve Irish 'freedom' through home rule that he did so, demonstrating to the unionists that Ireland could be United in a common goal. And there is evidence to show loyalist views did soften with strong bonds of solidarity forming in units like the 36th ulster fighting alongside southern fusilier regiments. The 1916 rebellion had the opposite effect and by 1918/19 everything had changed utterly and partition was inevitable such was the level of distrust festering in Ulster, both against an Irish parliament and of Westminster itself that they'd be sold out.

Redmond's actions might have been viewed very differently if events and opinion in the south hadn't overtaken the course. He might well have been revered today as the founder of a 32 county Free State.

wp_rathead

rather enjoyed Rebellion - wish they cut out the stupid affair with the Irish girl going to stay in Dalkey with the wife - and don't understand the point of the Belfast woman suddenly turning up..

Thought they portrayed the madness of it well, the policeman getting shot was very well played out - some people who learned about the Rising through romantic rebel songs might be pissed but revolutions are bloody affairs and it is three dimensional people who are getting killed and not simply "the enemy"