2016 RTE Drama: Rebellion - no spoilers please (mod warning in post #1)

nagdefy

mick malones mauser wrote: »

I am a bit dumbfounded that people weren't aware of some basics about 1916 like the humiliation of Thomas Clarke in the grounds of the rotunda by a British officer ( whose name escapes me but whom Michael Collins had shot a few years later)
The producers threw a few bits like that as if say" look at all the research we have done" name checking constable o brien at the gates of the castle in the opening scene ( he was the first casualty of the uprising) and also referencing the barrister wiley who was coopted by the British for the courts martial
All very good but nothing that a cursory reading of any of the multiple volumes produced about the history of the rising wouldn't reveal.
Basic school stuff really

Captain Percival Lee Wilson was the fella who humiliated Clarke Mick. I remember Kenneth Griffith the Welsh actor, socialist, irish republican admirer mentions him in 'Hang Up Your Brightest Colours'. His documentary on Michael Collins, 1973.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Elmo
There are a lot of stupid people out there as well you know.
Do you read the papers? ?
I would suggest reading the irish times, for the last few months they have published many articles on this subject from all points of view.
I am not aware of any one sided propaganda, personally I believe one should always have an open mind

What has reading the papers got to do with anything?

I'm talking about the reaction to the series showing that a lot of people have poor knowledge of these events. I'm not questioning people's intelligence or interested in yours. It's a fact. Most of us learn nothing about 1916 at school and those that did learn about it learned a very specific version of it.

Obviously there are plenty of people who have learned lots about it either at school or off their own backs. That doesn't change the fact that the general response to the historical accuracy, big and small, has shown that an awful lot of people don't know this part of Irish history very well.

maudgonner

Insurrection has been mentioned a good few times on this thread. I'm sure we'd all love to see it. This article gives more detail on that and the other programmes RTE made for the 1966 anniversary, it's interesting stuff.

I'd really love them to show On Behalf of the Provisional Government. It's a collection of interviews with survivors of the Rising. I've seen bits of it (some snippets were used in Seachtar na Cásca, and I think in Robert Kee's series on the history of Ireland). Nora Connolly's description of her last moments with her father really stick in my memory, that's more powerful than any drama could be.

The Rape of Lucretia

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Elmo
There are a lot of stupid people out there as well you know.
Do you read the papers? ?
I would suggest reading the irish times, for the last few months they have published many articles on this subject from all points of view.
I am not aware of any one sided propaganda, personally I believe one should always have an open mind

I guess there is only so much that some of us want. The minutiae of a footnote in history are fine for those interested in such detail, but for the uneducated among us, a bit of telly drama like Rebellion does the trick.
It is interesting to look back on an anniversary like this at our former selves, with a daub of fiction on a background canvas of real events to give a flavour of the times. A broad sweep, technical inaccuracies or not, is our fill.
I guess knowledge is a handicap in this case that can spoil the entertainment.

TCDStudent1

maudgonner wrote: »

Insurrection has been mentioned a good few times on this thread. I'm sure we'd all love to see it. This article gives more detail on that and the other programmes RTE made for the 1966 anniversary, it's interesting stuff.

I'd really love them to show On Behalf of the Provisional Government. It's a collection of interviews with survivors of the Rising. I've seen bits of it (some snippets were used in Seachtar na Cásca, and I think in Robert Kee's series on the history of Ireland). Nora Connolly's description of her last moments with her father really stick in my memory, that's more powerful than any drama could be.

Not sure if its the same thing but RTE have been releasing snippets of interviews like this for the past few weeks. This morning, I watched Sean McDiarmada's fiancee discuss her final meeting with him.

nagdefy

maudgonner wrote: »

Insurrection has been mentioned a good few times on this thread. I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

I'd really love them to show On Behalf of the Provisional Government. It's a collection of interviews with survivors of the Rising. I've seen bits of it (some snippets were used in Seachtar na Cásca, and I think in Robert Kee's series on the history of Ireland). Nora Connolly's description of her last moments with her father really stick in my memory, that's more powerful than any drama could be.

I'd love to see it too. Even if it portrays events in a lob sided way it would be a great way to show how our understanding and interpretation of the Rising has evolved. The 1966 commemoration of the Rising had ramifications for the Troubles in the North. It could only lead to a fuller understanding of the period. Very strange how it was only shown once. In 1991 at the 75th anniversary of the Rising the media in general attempted to hush hush the whole affair. I suppose as the Troubles were ongoing. The only bit of TV i remember was interviews on Live at 3 with elderly Dublin people and their recollections. Live at 3 no less!!

mick malones mauser

Elmo
I am a bit taken aback by your comment regarding reading the newspaper
Surely it's one way of educating oneself, as of course is reading novels and biographies and various histories relating to the period, that would help you and anyone else who hasn't got a great knowledge or understanding of the period come to grips with it
Better to light a candle than curse the darkness surely.
All the information is out there if you want to find it

mick malones mauser

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I guess knowledge is a handicap in this case that can spoil the entertainment.

Sorry can't agree with that. Knowledge is never a handicap. Far from it
The main handicap in this case is not what one does or doesn't know about the period but the fact that the drama itself is very poor

maudgonner

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Not sure if its the same thing but RTE have been releasing snippets of interviews like this for the past few weeks. This morning, I watched Sean McDiarmada's fiancee discuss her final meeting with him.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's from the same series TCD, I've been watching some of them as they're drip-feeding them out on the archives site. Some of them are also from a series called "The Survivors", it was filmed for 1966 but never actually aired (it's never too late, RTE! ).

mick malones mauser

Nagdefy, maudgonner and tcd . you 3 seem genuinely interested in the subject. May I recommend gene Kerrigans recent book The Scrap. Very well written and researched account based on a couple of real life foot soldiers who took part in the rebellion. Extraordinary stuff

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

nagdefy wrote: »

I'd love to see it too. Even if it portrays events in a lob sided way it would be a great way to show how our understanding and interpretation of the Rising has evolved. The 1966 commemoration of the Rising had ramifications for the Troubles in the North. It could only lead to a fuller understanding of the period. Very strange how it was only shown once. In 1991 at the 75th anniversary of the Rising the media in general attempted to hush hush the whole affair. I suppose as the Troubles were ongoing. The only bit of TV i remember was interviews on Live at 3 with elderly Dublin people and their recollections. Live at 3 no less!!

I've seen this theory thrown about a few times. I'm yet to see a reasonable explanation as to how a TV series led to the troubles in Northern Ireland. The civil rights movement started in earnest in 1964, the Unionists, led by Paisley formed groups to oppose the movement, including paramilitary ones. It kicked on from there. Where doe Insurrection come into that? Genuine question, if there's some hard proof of it I'd love to read it.

EDIT: I've just realised you might be talking about the commemorations, rather than the TV show, which is what someone else suggested a while ago.

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Elmo
I am a bit taken aback by your comment regarding reading the newspaper
Surely it's one way of educating oneself, as of course is reading novels and biographies and various histories relating to the period, that would help you and anyone else who hasn't got a great knowledge or understanding of the period come to grips with it
Better to light a candle than curse the darkness surely.
All the information is out there if you want to find it

Obviously it's all out there. My point is that the reaction to Rebellion has shown that most people have not searched it out and have been going along perfectly happy thinking they know the story of the Rising. The fact so many questions are being asked about every little piece of history in Rebellion proves that most people don't know some of the very basic details of it and are only know learning them. Which is the original point I was making in response to your comment about being surprised people didn't seem to know the tiniest of details.

maudgonner

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Obviously it's all out there. My point is that the reaction to Rebellion has shown that most people have not searched it out and have been going along perfectly happy thinking they know the story of the Rising. The fact so many questions are being asked about every little piece of history in Rebellion proves that most people don't know some of the very basic details of it and are only know learning them. Which is the original point I was making in response to your comment about being surprised people didn't seem to know the tiniest of details.

Completely agree with this. Most people (and Rebellion was made for a mass audience, not just history buffs) will know only as much about the Rising as they learned in school, and may have forgotten most of that. It's a bare-bones coverage of the topic that doesn't go into detail. And that's grand for most people. Indeed that was me until relatively recently.

If Rebellion, with all it's faults, does nothing more than spark people's interest and send them looking for more info, then that's a great thing in my book. And if it doesn't, if they're happy to enjoy the drama for its own merits as a bit of Sunday night entertainment, then that's grand too!

nagdefy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I've seen this theory thrown about a few times. I'm yet to see a reasonable explanation as to how a TV series led to the troubles in Northern Ireland. The civil rights movement started in earnest in 1964, the Unionists, led by Paisley formed groups to oppose the movement, including paramilitary ones. It kicked on from there. Where doe Insurrection come into that? Genuine question, if there's some hard proof of it I'd love to read it.

EDIT: I've just realised you might be talking about the commemorations, rather than the TV show, which is what someone else suggested a while ago.



Obviously it's all out there. My point is that the reaction to Rebellion has shown that most people have not searched it out and have been going along perfectly happy thinking they know the story of the Rising. The fact so many questions are being asked about every little piece of history in Rebellion proves that most people don't know some of the very basic details of it and are only know learning them. Which is the original point I was making in response to your comment about being surprised people didn't seem to know the tiniest of details.

The Commemorations Elmo!! Doubt the Unionist population of Ulster were watching Rte There was a very militaristic commemoration in 1966. Our powerful airforce flying overhead and a massive parade past the GPO. Some commentators maintain it put more distance between the North and South after a promising period with the Lemass/O'Neill meetings in 1965. Reinforced our claim to the territory of the North, articles 2 and 3 etc.

Actually not sure about Northern Nationalists watching it.. But agreed it in no way had a role in the start of the troubles

weadick

nagdefy wrote: »

I'd love to see it too. Even if it portrays events in a lob sided way it would be a great way to show how our understanding and interpretation of the Rising has evolved. The 1966 commemoration of the Rising had ramifications for the Troubles in the North. It could only lead to a fuller understanding of the period. Very strange how it was only shown once. In 1991 at the 75th anniversary of the Rising the media in general attempted to hush hush the whole affair. I suppose as the Troubles were ongoing. The only bit of TV i remember was interviews on Live at 3 with elderly Dublin people and their recollections. Live at 3 no less!!

'Curious Journey', a documentary by Kenneth Griffith, is also excellent and is well worth looking up on YouTube. Some of the interviews are actually quite powerful, esp those that cover the civil war period.

maudgonner

nagdefy wrote: »

The Commemorations Elmo!! Doubt the Unionist population of Ulster were watching Rte There was a very militaristic commemoration in 1966. Our powerful airforce flying overhead and a massive parade past the GPO. Some commentators maintain it put more distance between the North and South after a promising period with the Lemass/O'Neill meetings in 1965. Reinforced our claim to the territory of the North, articles 2 and 3 etc.

Actually not sure about Northern Nationalists watching it.. But agreed it in no way had a role in the start of the troubles

They had a big pageant in Croke Park as well, that depicted Irish history from 1798 up to the first Dáil. There's some footage here. Can't imagine that was a very balanced representation of history, somehow

mick malones mauser

I don't think insurrection the rte production or indeed any of the states 1966 50th anniversary commemoration had any influence on the outbreak of the troubles in the north. That was unfortunately a powder keg waiting to explode,
What did happen down here though was a change of attitude in official ireland towards our rebellious past. Understandable enough considering the carnage that was being unleashed.
However we then had conor cruise o brien and eoghan Harris, Ruth dudley Edwards etc telling us what awful people we were,section 31 etc.
Result, well in 1966 people were proud to celebrate the rising.
Today I am not sure that we are

mick malones mauser

maudgonner wrote: »

They had a big pageant in Croke Park as well, that depicted Irish history from 1798 up to the first Dáil. There's some footage here. Can't imagine that was a very balanced representation of history, somehow

Why should it be balanced.
It was an irish celebration of an irish fight for irish freedom

nagdefy

weadick wrote: »

'Curious Journey', a documentary by Kenneth Griffith, is also excellent and is well worth looking up on YouTube. Some of the interviews are actually quite powerful, esp those that cover the civil war period.

Yes have seen that. Tom Barry in Mesopatamia hearing about the Rising. Walton of Walton's Music fame, Maire Comerford, David Nelligan and Brigid Thornton. Griffith's dramatic style of presentation greatly adds to this documentary and 'Hang Up Your Brightest Colours'.

maudgonner

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Why should it be balanced.
It was an irish celebration of an irish fight for irish freedom

Well I'd argue that it shouldn't be a celebration, but a commemoration. Given that people died on both sides, I don't think it should be celebrated.

And I would always favour a balanced view. Nothing is ever black and white, and it's a very rare war or conflict where there isn't fault on both sides. For any mature nation, I think it's appropriate to acknowledge that complexity.

And if nothing else, stories are always more interesting when you see both sides. History is richer when you view it from all perspectives.

Strazdas

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I've seen this theory thrown about a few times. I'm yet to see a reasonable explanation as to how a TV series led to the troubles in Northern Ireland. The civil rights movement started in earnest in 1964, the Unionists, led by Paisley formed groups to oppose the movement, including paramilitary ones. It kicked on from there. Where doe Insurrection come into that? Genuine question, if there's some hard proof of it I'd love to read it.

EDIT: I've just realised you might be talking about the commemorations, rather than the TV show, which is what someone else suggested a while ago.

I believe Fintan O'Toole and one or two others argued that Insurrection may have played 'some' part in the Troubles. I suppose their argument would be that the series glorified the physical force tradition and downplayed the need for political solutions (though I can imagine others would dispute this).

It's probably the case that the timing of the 1966 commemorations was unfortunate vis-a-vis Northern Ireland. Things were starting to edge towards unrest and disorder in the province and here we had this major commemoration saying those who took up arms and resorted to violence were noble and heroic for doing so.

nagdefy

maudgonner wrote: »

They had a big pageant in Croke Park as well, that depicted Irish history from 1798 up to the first Dáil. There's some footage

Jeez it reminds me of of the Nazi 'Night of the Amazons' festival. Without the naked women!!

maudgonner

nagdefy wrote: »

maudgonner wrote: »

They had a big pageant in Croke Park as well, that depicted Irish history from 1798 up to the first Dáil. There's some footage

Jeez it reminds me of of the Nazi 'Night of the Amazons' festival. Without the naked women!!

It's an awful pity there's no sound on that. Micheál MacLiammoir as "The Voice of History", you can just imagine it, hugely dramatic with a big booming orchestra

nagdefy

maudgonner wrote: »

nagdefy wrote: »

It's an awful pity there's no sound on that. Micheál MacLiammoir as "The Voice of History", you can just imagine it, hugely dramatic with a big booming orchestra

You weren't at it by any chance?!

mick malones mauser

Maudgonner
Ideally I would like to live a world with no nation states just a brotherhood of man. ..However we don't
We were as a nation raped and pillaged by Britain for generations, we supplied her with food during our famine ( yup work that one out) and with soldiers ( the fighting irish) to build and enforce her empire.
Whether we like it or not our freedom was hard fought.
Yes we should be mature enough to take our place as equals with our nearest neighbours but we can't forget the past. We can only strive to never repeat it

maudgonner

nagdefy wrote: »

maudgonner wrote: »

You weren't at it by any chance?!

I wasn't even a twinkle in my father's eye in 1966, thanks very much!

The Rape of Lucretia

mick malones mauser wrote: »

We were as a nation raped and pillaged by Britain for generations, we supplied her with food during our famine ( yup work that one out) and with soldiers ( the fighting irish) to build and enforce her empire.

We werent a nation in the first place.


Our empire, our empire. Look at what we lost, with this little go it alone tangent.

Strazdas

nagdefy wrote: »

maudgonner wrote: »

They had a big pageant in Croke Park as well, that depicted Irish history from 1798 up to the first Dáil. There's some footage

Jeez it reminds me of of the Nazi 'Night of the Amazons' festival. Without the naked women!!

Indeed! I'm getting some visions of the night time rallies at Nuremberg as well watching this

nagdefy

maudgonner wrote: »

nagdefy wrote: »

I wasn't even a twinkle in my father's eye in 1966, thanks very much!

Same as myself!

mick malones mauser

Rape of Lucretia
We were a nation, we are a nation
I referred earlier today to post colonial self loathing
It's very common phenomenon in people's that have been subjected to colonial conquest for long periods, bit like Stockholm syndrome, or the way slaves grow dependent on their masters and feel they can't live without them.

mick malones mauser

Strazdas wrote: »

nagdefy wrote: »

Indeed! I'm getting some visions of the night time rallies at Nuremberg as well watching this

That's silly, nothing could be further from the truth,
Outrageous really to make such a comparison