2016 RTE Drama: Rebellion - no spoilers please (mod warning in post #1)

P. Breathnach · 02-02-2016 5:56pm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If there is to be a follow up series during the War of Independence they would have to introduce new characters since the majority of the fighting occurred in the countryside especially Co. Cork and Co. Tipperary.

So what? One of the complaints that some people made about Rebellion (and I think you were one of them) was that it did not foreground the actual fighting. The lives of the characters in Rebellion could continue, even in Dublin, against the background of political turmoil, and reports of ambushes and killings in the southwest.

For obvious reasons the central characters would have to be male as women were in an entirely secondary role during that conflict.

But women continued to exist in Ireland, and the events of the time impacted on their lives.

There were no female flying column commanders and fighters so the lesbian cross dresser Frances is going to have to be ditched.

Or she could disguise herself as a man and take part in the fighting.

Strazdas · 02-02-2016 5:56pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Or they could just follow the war of independence in Dublin.

They could also make the series with the same characters by not having the war as the central focus. Focus on the characters and how the war impacted on their lives. There's no need to have the main focus on the war.

That would be much easier for them to do. The next series doesn't need to be condensed into a two week time frame : they can set the series throughout the whole of 1918 for example or well into 1919 and this time concentrate more on the (fictional) characters.

Shurimgreat · 02-02-2016 5:58pm

jmcc wrote: »

Like Rebellion fans?

Regards...jmcc

Some people liked the series. You really need to respect that.

Myself I thought it was ok. It was nowhere near as bad as some of your frankly ridiculous and churlish criticisms make it out to be. One minute you complain people like Pearse are cardboard cutouts, another you complain the fictional characters aren't given more details. You seriously need to decide where you want the focus to be, instead of flip-flopping around.

You didn't like it, we get that, but at the same time we also get you have a serious chip against RTE. They turn you down for a job or something?

Shurimgreat · 02-02-2016 6:08pm

Whatever they do in a future series, it will again be limited by budget and for this reason will have the same criticisms from the same critics. If the producers had money to burn, there might be storylines about characters emigrating and how they lived in the US or Britain. I can't see that happening though. Generally how these programs work is, the writer says I have a great idea - a certain character emigrates to the US and they become a success on Wall Street before the Crash (or something like that). The producer says, "that's great, but we can't afford that storyline, so write something we can afford". The bigger the budget, the more ambitious something can be. Someone said earlier the writers ambition was greater than the resources available to make Rebellion and that's a good point.

OU812 · 02-02-2016 6:14pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I wonder are there are fictional novels set around 1916?

All his novels are about fictional characters set against historic events, they're usually two or three intertwining families set across decades/centuries in a family dynasty style.

Really enjoyable, I'd recommend the one above to start, there's three "Irish ones", the other two are set across several centuries & can be hard work. The "New York" novel is a personal favourite.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 02-02-2016 6:14pm

jmcc wrote: »

Like Rebellion fans?

Regards...jmcc

Given that Rebellion is an actual thing that exists... no.

jmcc · 02-02-2016 6:15pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Given that Rebellion is an actual thing that exists... no.

But do the fans?

Regards...jmcc

Strazdas · 02-02-2016 6:17pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Whatever they do in a future series, it will again be limited by budget and for this reason will have the same criticisms from the same critics. If the producers had money to burn, there might be storylines about characters emigrating and how they lived in the US or Britain. I can't see that happening though. Generally how these programs work is, the writer says I have a great idea - a certain character emigrates to the US and they become a success on Wall Street before the Crash (or something like that). The producer says, "that's great, but we can't afford that storyline, so write something we can afford". The bigger the budget, the more ambitious something can be. Someone said earlier the writers ambition was greater than the resources available to make Rebellion and that's a good point.

Best thing that can happen for the show is that it is a relative success on Sundance in the US in April and May and they tell RTE : "More of the same please".

Shurimgreat · 02-02-2016 6:24pm

I think Wind That Shakes The Barley covered some of the women well in the war of independence. The female characters might end up in similar roles.

During the Anglo-Irish War, its members were active. They hid arms and provided safe houses for volunteers, helped run the Dáil Courts and local authorities, and in the production of the Irish Bulletin, official newspaper of the Irish Republic.

In the Irish elections of May 1921, Markievicz was joined by fellow Cumann na mBan members Mary MacSwiney, Dr. Ada English and Kathleen Clarke as Teachtaí Dála.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumann_na_mBan

Possibly some of the female characters would go down one of these routes.

jmcc · 02-02-2016 6:24pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Some people liked the series. You really need to respect that.

Some people have poor taste and they are entitled to it. I respect their right to have poor taste. And I don't particularly think that you know what you are talking about when it comes to Writing or History. That's my opinion. Respect it!

Regards...jmcc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 02-02-2016 6:26pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Best thing that can happen for the show is that it is a relative success on Sundance in the US in April and May and they tell RTE : "More of the same please".

Rectify, which airs on Sundance, only gets about 200,000 viewers a week, and it's one of it's biggest shows, relatively speaking. It's kind of a niche station though, don't think everyone has it so it'll be hard to know whether it's a success or not until someone literally comes out and says it is, or isn't. Be interesting to keep an eye on it though.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 02-02-2016 6:29pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think Wind that Shakes the Barley covered some of the women well in the war of independence. The female characters might end up in similar roles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumann_na_mBan

Possibly some of the female characters would go down one of these routes.

Women were involved in nearly every part of modern history. They weren't involved in the writing of the history books though and that's the problem. There's probably plenty of scope for female characters to feature prominently throughout a series about the War of Independence, the Civil War and any other significant period of modern Irish history you wanted to write about.

Strazdas · 02-02-2016 6:38pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Rectify, which airs on Sundance, only gets about 200,000 viewers a week, and it's one of it's biggest shows, relatively speaking. It's kind of a niche station though, don't think everyone has it so it'll be hard to know whether it's a success or not until someone literally comes out and says it is, or isn't. Be interesting to keep an eye on it though.

I see Deutschland 83 has been getting between 75k and 150k viewers on Sundance, so if Rebellion was to come in higher than that, that would presumably be a 'success'.

TCDStudent1 · 02-02-2016 6:40pm

OU812 wrote: »

All his novels are about fictional characters set against historic events, they're usually two or three intertwining families set across decades/centuries in a family dynasty style.

Really enjoyable, I'd recommend the one above to start, there's three "Irish ones", the other two are set across several centuries & can be hard work. The "New York" novel is a personal favourite.

Cheers, must check them out.
You are obviously a fan. Do you think they could have used this as a basis to create rebellion rather than an original script?

jmcc · 02-02-2016 6:43pm

Strazdas wrote: »

I see Deutschland 83 has been getting between 75k and 150k viewers on Sundance, so if Rebellion was to come in higher than that, that would presumably be a 'success'.

The bar would be higher for an English language series.

Regards...jmcc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 02-02-2016 6:46pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Cheers, must check them out.
You are obviously a fan. Do you think they could have used this as a basis to create rebellion rather than an original script?

I was wondering this myself as quite a few of the other series people have been using to compare Rebellion to, War & Peace, Strumpet City, Brideshead Revisited, Band of Brothers, were based on pre existing and mostly quite successful novels.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 02-02-2016 6:56pm

jmcc wrote: »

The bar would be higher for an English language series.

Regards...jmcc

Rectify averages out at about 150k, give or take. They gave it 4 seasons. So not really.

josephryan1989 · 02-02-2016 7:54pm

I was thinking that maybe there could be an Rebellion/Alien v Predator cross over?

Strazdas · 02-02-2016 7:59pm

jmcc wrote: »

The bar would be higher for an English language series.

Regards...jmcc

For sure, but I think it will better the figures for Deutschland 83 in any event.

OU812 · 02-02-2016 8:21pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Cheers, must check them out.
You are obviously a fan. Do you think they could have used this as a basis to create rebellion rather than an original script?

It would have been a much bigger mini series unless they cut considerable amounts out as it stretches from the middle 19th Century to 1925(ish) The earlier characters set the stage & background for the main ones between 1916 & 1922. I'm not sure the attachment would be as strong to the central characters without the earlier ancestor ones. Having said that, I think it would have been brilliant.

There's also "A Star Called Henry" from Roddy Doyle which is equally suitable (& is the first in a trilogy featuring the same character that ends up being an advisor on "The Quiet Man") - first & third books are very enjoyable, second not so much. First one covers 1916 & 1922.

Strazdas · 02-02-2016 10:06pm

Just looking at the ratings for War and Peace on BBC1. It started on the same night as Rebellion and had 8.4m viewers for the opening episode. By Episode 3, it had shipped two million viewers (6.5m) and the figures have continued to fall with each episode. But the general consensus is that it has been a good series and a success : perhaps someone should have a word with the Irish media and tell them that falling ratings for a historical TV drama series from a very high starting point do not mean the show is a monumental flop.

JohnFalstaff · 02-02-2016 10:17pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Women were involved in nearly every part of modern history. They weren't involved in the writing of the history books though and that's the problem. There's probably plenty of scope for female characters to feature prominently throughout a series about the War of Independence, the Civil War and any other significant period of modern Irish history you wanted to write about.

One of the most popular and influential historians of this period in Irish history was a woman. She wrote The Irish Republic, long considered the authoritative text on the period.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 02-02-2016 11:27pm

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

One of the most popular and influential historians of this period in Irish history was a woman. She wrote The Irish Republic, long considered the authoritative text on the period.

I did not know that.

Interesting though that most people don't know the history of women's involvement in these events though. Countess Markievicz is the only name most people would know, she's the only name I ever came across in school.

As I type this I am watching a documentary on TG4 about Cumann na mBan. Women were heavily involved in the War of Independence (and Civil War), despite JosephRyan1989's assertions earlier. They may not have been involved in the physical fighting but they were running guns and ammunition, gathering intelligence and running safe houses. Plenty of stuff to get stuck into if there was a second series set later on.

They'd have to include Dev banning the organisation too, just so people could complain about him being portrayed negatively

KingBrian2 · 02-02-2016 11:58pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I did not know that.

Interesting though that most people don't know the history of women's involvement in these events though. Countess Markievicz is the only name most people would know, she's the only name I ever came across in school.

As I type this I am watching a documentary on TG4 about Cumann na mBan. Women were heavily involved in the War of Independence (and Civil War), despite JosephRyan1989's assertions earlier. They may not have been involved in the physical fighting but they were running guns and ammunition, gathering intelligence and running safe houses. Plenty of stuff to get stuck into if there was a second series set later on.

They'd have to include Dev banning the organisation too, just so people could complain about him being portrayed negatively [IMG]http://<script id=[/IMG]b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="11" class="inlineimg" />

Cumann na mBan were vital to the Rising they were couriers, medics and organised supplies. It was the one aspect this drama piece did well to explain to Irish audiences. What was not handled correctly was the reasons they had for joining a rebellion. Mixed views on just why they fought. Clearly the Suffragettes were tired of waiting to be acknowledged as equals in society and the proclamation made their grievances valid. Nobody today should believe it was any other way. Women were very important to the events of that week. Constance Markievicz you should have got a better showing.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-02-2016 12:55am

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Cumann na mBan were vital to the Rising they were couriers, medics and organised supplies. It was the one aspect this drama piece did well to explain to Irish audiences. What was not handled correctly was the reasons they had for joining a rebellion. Mixed views on just why they fought. Clearly the Suffragettes were tired of waiting to be acknowledged as equals in society and the proclamation made their grievances valid. Nobody today should believe it was any other way. Women were very important to the events of that week. Constance Markievicz you should have got a better showing.

She falls into the same category as the other real people though. They weren't the focus so she barely featured.

Some of the complaints about what Rebellion left out remind me of the complaints about the film Suffragette when it came out last year. What it boils down to is that some parts of history are ignored and have been ignored for so long that when someone finally makes a film or TV series about them they can never please anyone.

In an ideal world people would look at something like Rebellion and if they see something that seems new to them, women being involved heavily in the Rising, for example, they would look it up, find out more, then maybe say it'd be cool to see another separate production that focused on this person or a particular event or organisation. Likewise, in an ideal world, RTÉ or a screen writer or a production company would look at the (useful) feedback and notice that a lot of people are talking about wanting to see more of this person or that person or whatever it is and they would think about making another TV series or a film or documentary or whatever.

Instead people seem to prefer listing all the things one individual series didn't do and decide to hate it based on that alone. And the TV/movie people decide to just sack off the whole idea and go back to making bog standard paint by numbers TV. RTÉ are particularly bad at this. When something works they run it into the ground, when something doesn't work they bin it completely and don't bother looking at ways they could improve.

All that's not aimed at anyone in particular, just by the way, just a general observation.

JohnFalstaff · 03-02-2016 3:08am

maudgonner wrote: »

Ah I dunno Strazdas, there's definitely an element of that. But there's also the fact that I felt more in the execution scenes of Seachtar than I did at any point during Rebellion. (I'm no history buff or glorifier of the leaders of the Rising btw, and Seachtar definitely had its own faults).

Rebellion failed at producing characters I cared about, situations that had me on the edge of my seat. It's a sad indictment when a documentary series is more successful at sparking emotion than a drama is.

This for me is the crux of the issue. Many people on this thread have maintained you can't compare these two series together but when it comes to modern TV representations of the Rising these are the two series to measure against one another.

Rebellion was a scripted drama series; Seachtar Na Casca was a docu-drama. Both attempted to give viewers an insight into the events surrounding a seminal period in Irish history.

I agree with Strazdas that the metric of success for any TV series should not necessarily be viewing figures. But any TV show, be it documentary or drama, has to fulfill a couple of basic requirements if it is deemed to be a success. Rebellion failed as a drama series on a couple of very basic levels - most of which can be traced back to the script.

I would agree with the previous poster who said that Seachtar Na Casca sparked more emotion than Rebellion. The reason it did this is that each episode allowed you to become invested in the characters. When the executions of Pearse, Connolly, MacDonagh and the others were presented in Seachtar Na Casca in real-time, the emotional connection that had been built throughout the episode made their individual sacrifice in some ways comprehensible. This is what good drama should aspire to. The fact that Rebellion shied away from even attempting to grapple with any of this was what was most disappointing.

The execution of Connolly had the potential to be a powerful scene, but in Rebellion it was neutered and made redundant. It lacked any of the emotional connection that made Seachtar Na Casca work so well. You either earn that scene or you don't and so it felt out of place in Rebellion.

I wanted Rebellion to be a great series, something that we could all be proud of. Having seen it I feel that RTE rushed into it, with good intentions, but without giving due time and care to the script. They wanted to create a series that had characters that would work for a second and third series... but they didn't spend enough time making sure that the Rebellion series worked as a series in its own right.

I watched Rebellion and enjoyed some of the stories. I watched Seachtar Na Casca and wept.

Strazdas · 03-02-2016 3:54am

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

This for me is the crux of the issue. Many people on this thread have maintained you can't compare these two series together but when it comes to modern TV representations of the Rising these are the two series to measure against one another.

Rebellion was a scripted drama series; Seachtar Na Casca was a docu-drama. Both attempted to give viewers an insight into the events surrounding a seminal period in Irish history.

I agree with Strazdas that the metric of success for any TV series should not necessarily be viewing figures. But any TV show, be it documentary or drama, has to fulfill a couple of basic requirements if it is deemed to be a success. Rebellion failed as a drama series on a couple of very basic levels - most of which can be traced back to the script.

I would agree with the previous poster who said that Seachtar Na Casca sparked more emotion than Rebellion. The reason it did this is that each episode allowed you to become invested in the characters. When the executions of Pearse, Connolly, MacDonagh and the others were presented in Seachtar Na Casca in real-time, the emotional connection that had been built throughout the episode made their individual sacrifice in some ways comprehensible. This is what good drama should aspire to. The fact that Rebellion shied away from even attempting to grapple with any of this was what was most disappointing.

The execution of Connolly had the potential to be a powerful scene, but in Rebellion it was neutered and made redundant. It lacked any of the emotional connection that made Seachtar Na Casca work so well. You either earn that scene or you don't and so it felt out of place in Rebellion.

I wanted Rebellion to be a great series, something that we could all be proud of. Having seen it I feel that RTE rushed into it, with good intentions, but without giving due time and care to the script. They wanted to create a series that had characters that would work for a second and third series... but they didn't spend enough time making sure that the Rebellion series worked as a series in its own right.

I watched Rebellion and enjoyed some of the stories. I watched Seachtar Na Casca and wept.

I think the problem there was they presumably felt they couldn't make the execution of the leaders of the Rising the centre point of the episode as they were real life people and this is a fictional drama series. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to make Connolly's execution the highlight of Sunday's episode, but he's not a character as such in Rebellion.

I would agree with other points and that they struggled somewhat with characterisation and the script in getting people involved. It's for this reason though that I'd love to see a second series, I'm sure they've taken much of the criticism on board about things they got wrong.

If we look at the much vaunted Love Hate for example, it's generally accepted that the first series was patchy enough and far from the strongest one and the TV ratings were nothing to write home about. Indeed, I think had they made only one series, the show would probably be long forgotten by now and not well regarded at all.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-02-2016 11:03am

I think they used Connolly's execution quite well in Rebellion. It wasn't going to make you cry but they obviously weren't trying to use it in that way.
What it did do well was show just how brutal the British reaction was that they took a dying man from hospital and tied him to a chair so he could be shot.
It may not make people cry but it made me angry to see it played out. I'm sure it would shock people unfamiliar with the story too.

iguana · 03-02-2016 11:52am

Strazdas wrote: »

I think the problem there was they presumably felt they couldn't make the execution of the leaders of the Rising the centre point of the episode as they were real life people and this is a fictional drama series. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to make Connolly's execution the highlight of Sunday's episode, but he's not a character as such in Rebellion.

Connolly wasn't a major character but Jimmy was and he was supposed to have been an important commander of Connolly's. His execution should have been shown to audience through Jimmy's reaction, especially considering that Jimmy was also sentenced to the same fate. Instead we got Jimmy's cancelled execution to serve no other purpose than to stick the boot into Dev. And as much as I'm normally happy to see Dev's failings pointed out, if he vomited upon being told that the execution he was expecting any minute wasn't going to happen, that would be understandable and not a sign of his weakness.

Additionally Elizabeth was also shown interacting with Connolly and of all of the executed leaders, his was the one she would have been most upset by. Then even contrast that with the death of her father if they still felt a need to stick in that particular trope. Instead we got Ingrid, a thoroughly pointless character listening to the shots, then a wide shot of her on her knees praying followed by a close up of her standing again looking as if no time had passed praying on her knees. Something that didn't work on a stylistic, emotional or dramatic level. It was first year film student stuff.

josephryan1989 · 03-02-2016 11:56am

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I did not know that.

Interesting though that most people don't know the history of women's involvement in these events though. Countess Markievicz is the only name most people would know, she's the only name I ever came across in school.

As I type this I am watching a documentary on TG4 about Cumann na mBan. Women were heavily involved in the War of Independence (and Civil War), despite JosephRyan1989's assertions earlier. They may not have been involved in the physical fighting but they were running guns and ammunition, gathering intelligence and running safe houses. Plenty of stuff to get stuck into if there was a second series set later on.

They'd have to include Dev banning the organisation too, just so people could complain about him being portrayed negatively

As I said women were in secondary roles. You just confirmed what I said. Men did the killing which is what counts. The fantasy figure of Frances did not exist.

2016 RTE Drama: Rebellion - no spoilers please (mod warning in post #1)

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