Dispute Resolution...

...the dispute resolution process outlined on that forum refers to a few stages, with a final appeal to Admin.

When I raised an issue in that forum, a decision was made and the thread was locked. Which is fair enough.

But I was then told that there was no appeal as the person who made the decision is also an Admin and their decision is final. So one stage of the process, indeed possibly the most important stage being the right to appeal, was simply eliminated.

It seems a bit "made up as we go along". At the very least should the steps in that forum be changed to reflect the fact that there may be no appeal at all, depending on who considers the issue on that forum?

Spear

Have you a link to the thread in question, since your last DRP thread doesn't involve anything like that.

Here is the thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057529288

When I PMed the person who dealt with that matter, he advised that he was the Admin so his decision was final and there was no appeal. I can cut and paste from the PM itself, but conscious that displaying PMs may be contrary to forum rules.

Spear

So it didn't happen as part of DRP, it was something claimed in a later PM exchange.

If the person you're referring to is Hill Billy, then yes, he's an admin, and admin decisions are final.

Spear

Spear wrote: »

So it didn't happen as part of DRP, it was something claimed in a later PM exchange.

If the person you're referring to is Hill Billy, then yes, he's an admin, and admin decisions are final.

Think you may have missed the point.

The point was the appeal is not allowed, a whole step was eliminated.

Now whether one is denied an appeal within the DRP, or one is appealing on a decision of the DRP, is kinda just semantics. No appeal could take place at all. A whole stage was removed.

I appreciate decisions of Admin may be final. Does that also man that if the Mod is also Admin, they can even stop the application to the DRP?

The Hill Billy

The only step that was missed was any attempt by yourself to resolve the issue with the mod before going to DRF. By your own admission, you started your appeal without giving the mod an opportunity to respond to your PM.

As for your appeal being reviewed by a CMod & Admin, in this instance I am both the CMod for Social & Fun and an Admin. I reviewed your appeal comments, your contributions to the thread, the reported posts & mod comments & gave my ruling accordingly. Considering that your ban was for one day, this was a bonus as it expedited the appeals process.

I trust that this clarifies matters.

tHB

Spear

Someone who's both cmod and admin for a forum shouldn't be playing the role of both in DRP. That undermines the principle of oversight and fudges the line between the stages.

The Hill Billy

Fair enough. As DRF mod I suppose you could look at this as one of the following ways...
(a) Consider my actions were taken as CMod, reopen the appeal & let a different Admin make a final ruling
(b) Consider my actions were made as an Admin & consider the ruling final
(c) Something else...?

Spear

B would mean skipping out the cmod stage, which should come first.

So I'd tend towards A to keep everything rigorous. If an admin is needed after that, we'll get another admin and keep it all legitimate.

I presume there'll be a replacement cmod backfill soon so this should only be a temporary thing.

Dades

It's not unheard of for CMods to be skipped in DR, in certain cases.

Sometimes CMods are too busy/away to deal with disputes and rather than let something sit there, an admin will look into it and close it. Sometimes it's so obvious a case that further wasting a mod or CMods time is pointless and the door is shut. And sometimes, as is here, the admin is already familiar with the dispute (and is the sitting CMod) and makes the final decision.

When ultimately the decision lies with an admin, how you get there doesn't really matter.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

so, there effectively is no review or appeal if you have been banned by an admin?

I should say first of all I have no dispute with the Hill Billy.

He made a decision, I don't agree, pfffft, it's hardly the Supreme Court or that serious. He gives his time voluntarily, he was courteous and for that I respect him... I can't demand that he agree with me.

Plus I completely get the fact that, once something gets to an Admin, then it has to end. Again, we are not talking about something that serious, there has to be an end to the process.

I guess the point I'm making is that the DRP should be a real process. Perhaps that would be achieved by not having Admin consider matters there? Cos that seems to eliminate the possibility of appeal.

I have made the point that I have no personal beef with the Hill Billy, and I have PMed him to stress that.

And I completely get the point that, once something hits Admin, that's the end.

I should say thanks to Spear for getting the point. In a funny way this thread has actually reassured me about the checks and balances in place, as s/he has taken my point. And the Hill Billy was very courteous in all his responses too. I just think the prospect of appeal should be...real.

Zaph

Deleted User wrote: »

I should say first of all I have no dispute with the Hill Billy.

He made a decision, I don't agree, pfffft, it's hardly the Supreme Court or that serious. He gives his time voluntarily, he was courteous and for that I respect him... I can't demand that he agree with me.

Plus I completely get the fact that, once something gets to an Admin, then it has to end. Again, we are not talking about something that serious, there has to be an end to the process.

I guess the point I'm making is that the DRP should be a real process. Perhaps that would be achieved by not having Admin consider matters there? Cos that seems to eliminate the possibility of appeal.

Part of the problem really is that at the moment The Hill Billy, who despite being made an admin last week, is also the only active Social & Fun CMod, so there was no-one else available to review your ban at CMod level. However we're in the process of fixing that and we should have at least two new CMods in place in the next couple of days. This will prevent potential conflicts like this re-occurring. In this case if you want I can review your case as an admin appeal, just let me know.

Dades

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

so, there effectively is no review or appeal if you have been banned by an admin?

Who would be the next line of appeal? Our one Community Manager? Realistically you have to draw a line somewhere.

In the case of long bans, it's not unusual for users to contact the original mod after a spell of *good behaviour* to appeal to their sensibilities.

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess the point I'm making is that the DRP should be a real process. Perhaps that would be achieved by not having Admin consider matters there? Cos that seems to eliminate the possibility of appeal.

The thing is, it's not meant to be 1-2-3 process that ends up with an admin appeal every time. Ideally, we'd never be involved. But the forum ultimately allows you access to an admin, should you feel so aggrieved, though satisfaction is not guaranteed!

Trojan

When I was an admin I would sometimes close DR threads that I deemed were absolutely clear cut in one direction or the other. This was mostly to prevent volunteers wasting further time on an issue when the outcome is clearly inevitable.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Dades wrote: »

Who would be the next line of appeal? Our one Community Manager? Realistically you have to draw a line somewhere.

well, an 'independent' admin, who hasn't been involved in the process, to actually review the case, and outline the reasons for the ban, and their reasons for upholding it, maybe, I don't know.

at least let a guy know what he is supposed to have done wrong, so he can either defend himself against the allegations, or at least have a chance to hold his hands up and say 'yeah, i done wrong'

hypothetically, in my opinion,

Zaph

Zaph wrote: »

Part of the problem really is that at the moment The Hill Billy, who despite being made an admin last week, is also the only active Social & Fun CMod, so there was no-one else available to review your ban at CMod level. However we're in the process of fixing that and we should have at least two new CMods in place in the next couple of days. This will prevent potential conflicts like this re-occurring. In this case if you want I can review your case as an admin appeal, just let me know.

No huge need, in that the ban is up so the issue is slightly academic.

And as I said, the Hill Billy was both efficient and courteous, both on the site and in PMs (in fact, strictly in terms of modding, he was exemplary) and Spear here took the point, so to that extent if anything my query is satisfied and I'm happy that the site displays checks and balances.

So maybe the only point left is that if DRP is meant to be a kinda mid process step, it shouldn't be determined by a party that can't make it final. In fairness that is signalled in the procedure.

Zaph

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

well, an 'independent' admin, who hasn't been involved in the process, to actually review the case, and outline the reasons for the ban, and their reasons for upholding it, maybe, I don't know.

at least let a guy know what he is supposed to have done wrong, so he can either defend himself against the allegations, or at least have a chance to hold his hands up and say 'yeah, i done wrong'

hypothetically, in my opinion,

Pull the other one if you think anyone's buy the whole "hypothetical" rubbish. You're not getting access to AH, and that's that. And if you keep pestering the mods with PMs as you have been doing all weekend, or start adding me to your mailing list, you'll find yourself sitebanned again.

Now, as Conor74 has received a response to his OP and seems to be happy with it I'm locking this thread before you hijack it with more of your nonsense.