Becoming an undergraduate demonstrator

Nicke011

What does it take to become a demonstrator in certain module?
I am doing an undergraduate course and I just finished my first semester of my first year. Some of our demonstrators where students from second year of our course, so it seems like you can be a demonstrator in second year. When do you apply, how and what are the requirements?

OneOfThem Stumbled

Nicke011 wrote: »

What does it take to become a demonstrator in certain module?
I am doing an undergraduate course and I just finished my first semester of my first year. Some of our demonstrators where students from second year of our course, so it seems like you can be a demonstrator in second year. When do you apply, how and what are the requirements?

What school are you in?

Nicke011

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

What school are you in?

School of Computer Science

convert

Contact your school office directly. If they can't advise you, they'll at least tell you who you could talk to about it. But do bear in mind that a number of Schools have already closed applications for demonstrating/tutoring, so it may be too late. Still worth asking, though, as you might get put on a panel.

Nicke011

convert wrote: »

Contact your school office directly. If they can't advise you, they'll at least tell you who you could talk to about it. But do bear in mind that a number of Schools have already closed applications for demonstrating/tutoring, so it may be too late. Still worth asking, though, as you might get put on a panel.

Thank you. I am talking about next year though, when I will be in Stage 2. As I would like to be a demonstrator in some of the modules that I just had in this semester.

sparkthatbled

Nicke011 wrote: »

School of Computer Science

Hah, how did you find APS?

Derby Deasy

I have never heard of a second-year, undergraduate demonstrator.

I know demonstrators who are qualified medical doctors and other professionals, undertaking graduate studies, but have never heard of an undergrad demonstrator.

A demonstrator is essentially a tutor, or a 'TA' as Americans say.

I know budgets have been slashed outside of the lecture theatres, but I sincerely hope UCD has not resorted to using undergrads as demonstrators.

CramCycle

There are generally notices posted on the notice boards around the buildings. I find it hard to believe that they are using undergrads for demonstrating but its not impossible if they are short on CS postgrads willing to do it.

It certainly does not happen in any other science subject though.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Derby Deasy wrote: »

I have never heard of a second-year, undergraduate demonstrator.

Yeah, I don't think there are any second-year, undergraduate demonstrators in the university

Derby Deasy wrote: »

I know demonstrators who are qualified medical doctors and other professionals, undertaking graduate studies, but have never heard of an undergrad demonstrator.

Undergraduate demonstrators have long been a practice of certain schools (like Physics afaik). It depends largely on the subject, and on the would-be demonstrator how well that works in practice. I have no idea about medicine.

Derby Deasy wrote: »

A demonstrator is essentially a tutor, or a 'TA' as Americans say.

No, the two roles are very different in UCD. Tutors are paid double what demonstrators are paid, for instance. Easy distinction is whether there are multiple "teachers" in the room: if there are, they are likely to be demonstrators, if there aren't they are likely to be tutors (higher student:tutor ratio than student:demonstrator)

Derby Deasy wrote: »

I know budgets have been slashed outside of the lecture theatres, but I sincerely hope UCD has not resorted to using undergrads as demonstrators.

I sometimes wish I had had undergraduate demonstrators. People who have done the course material recently will typically be better disposed to answer questions than someone who has never been in UCD before, much less taken the course (which is the case with many postgrads). Again, of course, it matters whether you are talking about tutors or demonstrators; I suspect you mean tutors.

CramCycle

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Yeah, I don't think there are any second-year, undergraduate demonstrators in the university

It is unheard of until this thread.

Undergraduate demonstrators have long been a practice of certain schools (like Physics afaik). It depends largely on the subject, and on the would-be demonstrator how well that works in practice. I have no idea about medicine.

Having worked as a demonstrator, lead demonstrator and a lecturer, undergrads are not demonstrators from an insurance or common sense point of view. There may be an exception where a 4th year has a Bachelors ordinary from 3rd year but even then its not really a thing. Certain schools have made demonstrating a requirement of postgrads to keep numbers up but I have yet to see an undergrad covering them.

No, the two roles are very different in UCD. Tutors are paid double what demonstrators are paid, for instance. Easy distinction is whether there are multiple "teachers" in the room: if there are, they are likely to be demonstrators, if there aren't they are likely to be tutors (higher student:tutor ratio than student:demonstrator)

Tutors and demonstrators are paid horrendously poorly in UCD. Demonstrators are used in practical classes, tutors are school dependent but are generally class based learning. Rate of pay is school dependent as most tutors are jut demonstrators in all but name. The only exception being lecturer tutors who are effectively lecturers sin all but name and recieve a far higher pay grade.

OneOfThem Stumbled

CramCycle wrote: »

It is unheard of until this thread.

OP was incorrect.

CramCycle wrote: »

Tutors and demonstrators are paid horrendously poorly in UCD. Demonstrators are used in practical classes, tutors are school dependent but are generally class based learning. Rate of pay is school dependent as most tutors are jut demonstrators in all but name. The only exception being lecturer tutors who are effectively lecturers sin all but name and recieve a far higher pay grade.

Rate of pay is set at university level, which is set to a certain degree at a governmental level. Pay of €30 p/h for tutors is not particularly horrendous in my view (-10% post 2011 naturally). And around €70 p/h casual lecturer is nicer still. Some schools however do not pay their demonstrators.

CramCycle

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

OP was incorrect.

I wasn't having a dig and could still be wrong, but had never heard of it until this thread with the rare exception of my postgrad days where a 4th year filled in and pretended to be someone else.

Rate of pay is set at university level, which is set to a certain degree at a governmental level. Pay of €30 p/h for tutors is not particularly horrendous in my view (-10% post 2011 naturally). And around €70 p/h casual lecturer is nicer still. Some schools however do not pay their demonstrators.

Associate lecturer was about 66 in my day but tutors were never 30. There maybe a rate of pay for 30 but generally they were associate lecturers filling hours (ie 66 p/h) or demonstrators not realising they were underpaid (between 10 and 20 an hour, I can't remember the rate and I think there was two). There was for a time a demonstrator by title rate of pay that was about 30 but UCD were paying about 11 p/h and the ITs were paying associate lecturer pay for postgrads. The thinking being that stipends in ITs were so much lower that to take the time out of research for such little pay was inappropriate. This said, IT graduates were far more skilled for labs whereas university students were generally winging it (opinion but experience bears this out being admittedly a university graduate myself).
A few schools do not pay, hiding the hours in "required hours". Certain ITs started this a few years ago, requiring 3 hours work per week, a successful strike in one IT stopped this being accumulative (thank you for standing up, it wasn't very public at the time).
UCD have had it for at least 8 years in certain schools. They tried to make it mandatory for all PhDs but those with independent funding were unreliable turning up, so they eventually had to set up demonstratorships (eg PhD fees paid for minimum hours demonstrated). so it exists in some and not in others.

OneOfThem Stumbled

CramCycle wrote: »

I wasn't having a dig and could still be wrong, but had never heard of it until this thread with the rare exception of my postgrad days where a 4th year filled in and pretended to be someone else.

Associate lecturer was about 66 in my day but tutors were never 30. There maybe a rate of pay for 30 but generally they were associate lecturers filling hours (ie 66 p/h) or demonstrators not realising they were underpaid (between 10 and 20 an hour, I can't remember the rate and I think there was two). There was for a time a demonstrator by title rate of pay that was about 30 but UCD were paying about 11 p/h and the ITs were paying associate lecturer pay for postgrads.

Demonstrators/tutors are distinct positions. Moreover, they are positions which staff would be barred from holding; they are exclusively for students.

http://www.ucd.ie/hr/pay/tutorsdemonstrators/index.html#Rates%20of%20pay

The casual lecturer rate is the relative hourly pay of a lecturer and is quite narrow in terms of who can claim it and when.

CramCycle wrote: »

UCD have had it for at least 8 years in certain schools. They tried to make it mandatory for all PhDs but those with independent funding were unreliable turning up, so they eventually had to set up demonstratorships (eg PhD fees paid for minimum hours demonstrated). so it exists in some and not in others.

It depends on the funding and the school. All Arts tutors are well... tutors; not demonstrators for instance. On the other hand Arts postgrads are unlikely to receive SFI funding (for instance) which would be more readily available to postgrads of other schools. Some external funding (e.g. IRC) prohibits any form of tutoring/demonstration for the first year of the funding.

Really the problem in third level is that jobs have tended to be awarded by qualification, not merit. Generally when you see people insisting upon those engaged in teaching in 3rd level having higher qualifications, but don't actually care about how good people are at teaching, it tends to be indicative of those who favour an old fashioned "closed shop" approach to the public service. A piece of paper doesn't prove you are good or bad at teaching... it is a piece of paper.

ciaraofcourse

I demonstrated first and second year Statistics while I was in fourth year undergrad (no ordinary bachelor's either). As far as I understood there wasn't enough Stats postgrads to fill the roles so about six or seven fourth years with good grades were hired. We were paid a lower rate than the postgrads but still was alright money for the amount of work required.
What really amazed me was the fact that there was no training or meetings to prepare us. Literally never met one of the lecturers I was working for! Even when I was correcting papers for her she would simply email me to tell me to drop them in her letterbox. Other lecturers would make a bit more effort but there was no formal training or even checking that the demonstrators knew anything about the classes they were teaching.

CramCycle

ciaraofcourse wrote: »

I demonstrated first and second year Statistics while I was in fourth year undergrad (no ordinary bachelor's either).

Nothing to do with the thread but if you are in the likes of UCD you don't get the ordinary degree (in the sciences anyway) unless you either fail 4th year and don't receive your honours or you pass third year but do not qualify for 4th year eg class size restrictions.

You would have been considered as having an ordinary degree, even though you didn't.