Upgrade TT Bike or Invest in good Road Bike? How soon will aLL races go draft-legal!

68 lost souls

I find it strange the people can opt out. In other sports for example soccer a team can't really opt out of the premiership to play in division 1? It would be unfair on those in division 1. Am I wrong?

This would apply to those who met the mandatory requirements rather those who applied.

rooneyjm

68 lost souls wrote: »

I find it strange the people can opt out. In other sports for example soccer a team can't really opt out of the premiership to play in division 1? It would be unfair on those in division 1. Am I wrong?

This would apply to those who met the mandatory requirements rather those who applied.

See there you are applying logic. The more experiences I'm having with TI the more I realise that logic doesn't seem to apply.

mloc123

Not quite sure what all the fuss is about. It will not be like an ITU race where there is a pack of 40ppl together in a group... it will be the same as when I last raced Tri/Duathlon 2-3 years ago.. small bunches of 6-7 people sucking each others wheel... only this time they don't have to pretend they are not drafting when passing a marshall

joey100

Going completely off the original topic here but the super series was a bit of a joke really. Was all meant to be draft legal, this changed without anyone really knowing to only the 2 National Championships being draft legal. People who should have been in category one choosing not to race in it and take age group prizes even though if you were on the original list you were not meant to have a choice. People also moved up to it during the season and had the results they got while in the super series count towards their age group series places. I let TI know about any of these I seen but they said there was nothing they could do, that it wouldn't be fair on the people to take away their age group points while in the same email saying that you weren't allowed opt out of super series to race in NS races. I have no problem with people opting out and winning prizes in non national series races but it looks like some clubs pulled their athletes who were on the original list to help boost them up the club championship table. Hopefully next year it will be a bit better organised.

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.

peter kern

68 lost souls wrote: »

I find it strange the people can opt out. In other sports for example soccer a team can't really opt out of the premiership to play in division 1? It would be unfair on those in division 1. Am I wrong?

This would apply to those who met the mandatory requirements rather those who applied.

to be fair ti did say it was madatory
and why would you want yo force people to do something which is their hobby. ( i amextremly reluctand to invest into more tri gear to do draft legal races when my focus is long distance racing , some people cant swim and this format is really not suiting them that much.

tommy_tucker

joey100 wrote: »

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.

it would be a bit fiddly (less so if its external cable routing) but all going well you should be able to do it in an hour. But you'd go through a few inner cables because you would have a tough time treading them through the outer cables if they were frayed or bent at all. you'd get fairly sick of doing it if you were doing it a couple of times in the season.

joey100

That's pretty much what I though Tommy, especially the way some of the newer aero bikes are it doesn't seem that simple to re-cable the brakes. External brake cables would be a lot more simple alright, you could nearly have separate brake calipers cabled up on each handlebar but again it's an extra cost and probably not as aero as an internally cabled bike. And on top of all that I don't really want a reason to get rid of one of my bikes, if anything I'd be looking for a reason to get another bike!

zico10

lizanne83 wrote: »

Can't see how opting out would be a problem. It's our decision what we want to race [surely] hopefully!


A LOT of cat1's raced as AG this year :mad:

How do you reconcile these two opinions?

mloc123

joey100 wrote: »

Going completely off the original topic here but the super series was a bit of a joke really. Was all meant to be draft legal, this changed without anyone really knowing to only the 2 National Championships being draft legal. People who should have been in category one choosing not to race in it and take age group prizes even though if you were on the original list you were not meant to have a choice. People also moved up to it during the season and had the results they got while in the super series count towards their age group series places. I let TI know about any of these I seen but they said there was nothing they could do, that it wouldn't be fair on the people to take away their age group points while in the same email saying that you weren't allowed opt out of super series to race in NS races. I have no problem with people opting out and winning prizes in non national series races but it looks like some clubs pulled their athletes who were on the original list to help boost them up the club championship table. Hopefully next year it will be a bit better organised.

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.

Do people really bring a bike to a shop to have cables swapped out? This is probably one of the most basic jobs, along with swapping a chain etc.. that anyone can do. Takes about 10 mins to re-cable inner brake cables.

peter kern

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.[/QUOTE]

this would depend on many things for insatnce cervelo would claim that the s5 is as aero as a p4 frame ( and the p4 frame is still top notch ) , to use that example of the ST thread i linked ( and in tests its comes out as the fastest aero frame) . so there would be no loss in speed therefore the guy in the thread , as he says he can fit both positions on it-and that guy in the thread knows his s.it ( some people will be able to do that some wont especially if you max out your tt bike with a long reach and a low stack like i do, an aerobike would not be an option maybe the bmc as it looks like low stack ) At the same time I would use an tt bike as my focus would be to have a good tt bike and an ok drafting bike as i need very long and fairly low bikes
the rear break of the p4 is useles so i would be very reluctant to make a road bike out of it ( like many bikes that have the breaks below the seatstay ) . .
I know of quite a few people that transformed old p2 s into road bikes and it seemed to work well .
you also have to be careful what bike you buy the Bmc apparantly has easy to work cabeling the quintana roo pr6 would be also easy to wrench on the new cervelo p2 due to brake placing looks like a good option defo no bike with integrated stem ;-)
ie most high end tt bikes will not work for that integrated stem gives less flexibility and it needs tohave a good rear break )
you will have to be a good more careful what you buy and frame sizing
also to point out you realy do not need di2 to make that work if you read the thread i posted. ( at the same time this is certainly an bonus of an di2 but having had a di2 i really would not want another one )
from an engineering point I would think its not that hard to make conections that you change very quickley if there is a market for it.

if you are not technically minded you would use what nicola spirig does she used her road bike for her ironman win with aded tri bars
and the road bike handle bars . the way chrissie wellington won hawaii a few times with a p2 that had road bike handle bars on .
this is also a good way for an ahtlete doing an ironman course that is techniqual.

yes you make compromises but triathetes always make compromises its the nature of the sport . if oyu work 80 hous a week have the big house you go for 2 bikes if you are not in that category and prefer to train rahter than making money , than i still think it s a viable option to make 1 bike use for both for many people.. if you are a bit handy.

peter kern

mloc123 wrote: »

Do people really bring a bike to a shop to have cables swapped out? This is probably one of the most basic jobs, along with swapping a chain etc.. that anyone can do. Takes about 10 mins to re-cable inner brake cables.

yes most people do

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

How do you reconcile these two opinions?

do you have to reconsile them ? some people like to be the big fish in a small pond , while others like to strech themselves , nothing wrong with either in my mind (unless you like to be the big fish in the small pond and are pissed off tha you got outsmarteted by a guy with a bigger big fish syndrom ;-)

new2triathlon

Triathlon Ireland said it was mandatory to be Cat 1 if you reached certain standards in 2013, 2014 seasons (ie podium in NS race, top 10 in NC) and sent out an email to this effect to Cat 1 athletes.

Obviously Cat 1 athletes may have chosen not to race Superseries - this was particularly the case in female races, where though there were 50+ qualified cat 1's, races had max of 20 or so. Some Cat 1's may have decided to only race NS and they would have been entitled to win prizes at individual races ( my personal opinion is that they should have only been entitled to overall podium prize, but TI did clarify during the year with me that they could win ag prize at individual races.)

However Cat 1 athletes were not eligible for NS points. They could not win AG NS overall and they could not contribute to a club's NS overall score. 'Opting out' of Cat 1 so you could win/score highly in overall NS was not an option that I was aware of.

joey100

Wasn't meant to be an option alright, but in the end it was.

new2triathlon

Posted a reply - but decided to bite my tongue instead.

peter kern

so what do you suggest would be the right way to do it then?

have cat 1 ellgbilble for clubs to score ( i mean how could you be the best club if the best people dodnt count ?)
the club league is anyway a fun competiton and dosnt matter ?
or fnd a beter way than the current way which would be what ?

joey100

Peter, I think the problem is that one set of rules were announced at the start of the season and they seemed to change mid season without telling anyone. I don't think anyone would have a problem with super series athletes being allowed score points, like you say it is only a bit of fun, the problem is when at the start of the season TI say they will not be allowed and then this seems to change when you look at the results at the end of the season. A bit of consistency is all people are looking for. If a rule is a rule then it should be the same for everyone. If the rule states that super series can elect not to be in it and can race national series instead that's fair enough, but TI said at the start of the year that they couldn't (if part of the original list) but seemed to turn a blind eye when some did. That's the problem here.

new2triathlon

NS Club Champs for developing/newer athletes in Club- fun competition, nice for winners to get a bit of silverware at end but not the be all/end alll. Mandatory Cat 1 athletes ineligible to score in NS.

Club Relay Champs - the premier club competition. All clubs who want to win get their best athletes out to race. Its head to head, winner takes all on day, cant be undermined by a 'big points'/poor standard of competitors unbalancing scores etc.

By the way - that was my understanding of the way things were supposed to be in 2015!!!

Agree with Joey 100% above also

peter kern

could you expalin what actually happend then ? ( base form many discussions most boardies dont follow Ns series and club champs ) who did actually win ?
which mandatory atheltes were counted for Ns series ?
what does ti say to the fact that goal poasts apparantly were moved ?

new2triathlon wrote: »

NS Club Champs for developing/newer athletes in Club- fun competition, nice for winners to get a bit of silverware at end but not the be all/end alll. Mandatory Cat 1 athletes ineligible to score in NS.

Club Relay Champs - the premier club competition. All clubs who want to win get their best athletes out to race. Its head to head, winner takes all on day, cant be undermined by a 'big points'/poor standard of competitors unbalancing scores etc.

By the way - that was my understanding of the way things were supposed to be in 2015!!!

Agree with Joey 100% above also

joey100

I'm not going to name people or clubs but it doesn't take much effort to figure out what clubs and who. TI website has all the info on it.

I contacted TI about it and was told that there was nothing they could do about it and wouldn't be making any changes to the points, even though they acknowledged that it shouldn't have been allowed to happen and the athletes should have been in super series. It didn't affect me directly save for a few places, was never the difference between me winning or losing. But there is athletes out there who I don't know if they know about this that I would feel sorry for and if I was in their position I would be very unhappy with TI.

lizanne83

Just seeing all the posts now. I agree that what was outlined at the beginning of 2015 regarding Super Series rules appeared to change mid-way. I was never a ‘mandatory’ Cat1 as termed earlier, I simply applied (based on previous Oly & sprint times that qualified)

I started triathlon 3 years ago (started swimming just 3 yrs ago too!) and wanted to take the opportunity while I could (worked hard for it) and any of the National Series races I did this year as Cat1 did not award any AG points (which is what I expected as that was meant to be the rules!)

I didn’t realize that some Cat1’s did in fact get NS points, really? Either way, I don’t feel that I’m “up at the top” with the top Cat 1’s and can’t see the motivation in continuing to come towards the mid-back of pack when I could feel less pressure in the NS and enjoy it much more. As Peter said earlier, this is a hobby (while working v-hard at it) so should be enjoyed too as we make enough sacrifices to enjoy it.

It’s gone off-topic, it was all about the bike choice options going forward (if AG racing starts incorporating more draft-legal races) so thanks for all the advice on that. The rest of the other topics are V-interesting but I don’t know enough about the context /politics behind it all

peter kern

i had a quick glimps i see nobody there that i though was mandatory cat 1 athelte in any result ( to be fair i dodnt have the list with cat 1 atheltes ahead of me so i can be wrong of course )
there is 2 females i rasied my eye brows a little bit but they were not in medal wining teams and 1 male that was in a medal wining team that are kind of borderline cat 1 in my appraisel.
of ocurse that dosnt mean there is none but it dosnt seem to me a big problem and at least having a only a qucik glimps i can se why tI would not go there a they would be more in between atheltes
.

rooneyjm

joey100 wrote: »

Peter, I think the problem is that one set of rules were announced at the start of the season and they seemed to change mid season without telling anyone. I don't think anyone would have a problem with super series athletes being allowed score points, like you say it is only a bit of fun, the problem is when at the start of the season TI say they will not be allowed and then this seems to change when you look at the results at the end of the season. A bit of consistency is all people are looking for. If a rule is a rule then it should be the same for everyone. If the rule states that super series can elect not to be in it and can race national series instead that's fair enough, but TI said at the start of the year that they couldn't (if part of the original list) but seemed to turn a blind eye when some did. That's the problem here.

The fact that that was allowed to happen is pure horse sh1te. For an organisation that aspires to be a professional outfit it smacks of a amateur, make it up as you go along policy. On top of that you have mess that was the publication of the results or lack of.

peter kern

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055400022

its an old thread but given its the first year TI run a system like this they did not so bad.

watercarrier

Not trying to be bad but do any of you guys actually train and race or do you just spend the majority of your time bitching about drafting and or open water swim navigation

sconhome

watercarrier wrote: »

Not trying to be bad but do any of you guys actually train and race or do you just spend the majority of your time bitching about drafting and or open water swim navigation

Can't train and race when in work, so bitching is the next best thing.

peter kern

watercarrier wrote: »

Not trying to be bad but do any of you guys actually train and race or do you just spend the majority of your time bitching about drafting and or open water swim navigation

I hope you are a sub 9 h ironman otherwise you are sitting in the galsshouse as they say.

watercarrier

peter kern wrote: »

I hope you are a sub 9 h ironman otherwise you are sitting in the galsshouse as they say.

I'd wipe the floor most here anyways

peter kern

watercarrier wrote: »

I'd wipe the floor most here anyways

name ?

watercarrier

watercarrier wrote: »

I'd wipe the floor most here anyways

Age group Irish vest for full disclosure not many on here can say that's!