I cheated..

jamesieboy15

I'm a 37 year old that's been married for 7 years, with 2 beautiful kids. But over the last 12 months or so, the spark is gone..and we are both responsible for this. There's no chemistry, we don't go out together...we are just like 2 friends living together looking after 2 kids.
Anyway, earlier this year, out of boredom, I set up a fake profile on a dating site, just for the fun. I got chatting to a few girls but there was one particular girl that had my attention. Anyway, we were flirting, the usual...and she had suggested meeting up...obviously I couldn't as I wasn't the guy in the profile. So after a few weeks, She copped the wedding ring in one of my pics. She was more upset than angry, and I felt awful for doing it to her. So obviously we went our separate ways, and we had both forgotten about eachother. After a week or so, (we still had eachothers numbers), she messaged me out of the blue...and we started talking again. I obviously apologised for what had happened, and came clean about the profile, showed her pics of the real me etc.
So we used text loads, like constantly throughout the days. We used know what the other person was doing...eg if she was on a night out in Dublin, I'd know, and she would send me pic etc. We became part of eachothers lives I guess. So after a while, it came up about maybe meeting for a chat and see how we got on. She was fully convinced that we wouldn't click in real life at all, whereas I was. Obviuosly, our feelings were growing towards eachother, and in October we met for the first time...more or less so that she could see that we wouldn't get on and that that would be the end of it etc etc. So we met, and obviously it was awkward for 2 minutes or so, but then we just talked and talked like we knew eachother for years. We clicked. And we both admitted to that over the following days. Nothing happened...we just talked and a quick hug when we were leaving.
So a few weeks later, we met again, and spent more or less a whole day together...it was amazing. Just so relaxed and natural. We kissed at the end, and she kinda panicked afterwards, and so did I. We told eachother how we felt and we were both mad about eachother, but obv my situation was playing at the back of both our minds.
Next time we met, we spent the day together again and ended up having sex. We both wanted it, but afterwards, the guilt started eating away at her more so than me.
We talked about my marriage, and I explained my situation. She urged me to forget about her and try sit down with my wife and tell her that I thought things were ****, and we need to change or else the marriage wont last. I agreed, but at the same time I know that it's over...in my head it's over anyway. I love this new girl and she has said she loves me too. She has stressed to me that if I do finish my marriage, that it has to be my decision...independent of her. She would never ask me to leave for her. I know I'm being a di**head, but I need advice. She has stressed that she wants to ease back on things between now and the new year, and for me to try things at home. If they don't work out, she has promised to be there waiting for me. So what do I do?? I love this girl. When I'm with her, I've never felt that way with anyone. And I used never be "luvey duvey" but when I'm with her, I can't help it...always holding her hands, rubbing her hair etc. We are both like that. I couldn't tell you the last time I held my wife's hand. Obviously, it will be a massive decision, and one that I won't take lightly. But, I can't see anyway back for me and my wife, as a loving couple. And then Im waiting for a message from the other girl...constantly looking at my phone. opposite ends of the spectrum.
Hopefully someone will be able give their opinion.

Confucius say

Think you should look into mediation, speak with a solicitor ASAP regarding access to your kids and get the ball rolling on a divorce. It's not nice what you've done but you need to do the right thing and leave your wife, I can't see any coming back from this, it's not just a one night thing like the other thread, it's way more than that and your marriage sounds over anyway. Best of luck.

eviltwin

If your marriage is over its over but having a person on standby kinda clouds things. How do you know your infatuation with the other woman isn't colouring your view of your wife? And what if when the honeymoon period is over she decides a dad of two with an ex wife isn't as much fun as she thinks? If I were you I'd keep away from her for a while, see how Christmas goes and then if you really want out do so fairly and respectfully.

jamesieboy15

Ya I've no clue about that sort of stuff. Ideally, I'd like for her to agree that things are ****, and for me to be there for the kids to help out.

meeeeh

It's over. Unlike the other thread it didn't just happen, you planned it all the way. You owe your wife the truth regardless of other woman. You bailed on your marriage when you opened dating profile not when you started sleeping with the other woman. So yes it's about time you come clean.

Greenduck

I think you have made up your mind already so not sure what advice you are looking for. I highly doubt you are going to get much if any sympathy from anyone for your behaviour. All I read in your post was excuse after excuse without any responsibility being taken for your actions. Do you honestly believe that just because you 'believe' your marriage to be over that it makes it ok to deceive as you did?

What I don't think you have considered while you have actively pursued this woman, is the devastation and destruction you are about to cause your wife and children. Regardless of the state of the marriage, you have chosen to end it your own way by cheating and with that actively destroying your family. Your head has been turned and you say you are in love with this woman. Is she worth your children's respect? losing your home? Having family and friends turn on you? Probably in the haze of romance you haven't stopped to consider any of these things. Is your new lady willing to become a step mother and share her weekends with you and your kids? Maybe so, probably not.

To be honest you sound like an incredibly selfish person and no doubt if you keep going the way you do, you'll end up getting what you deserve.

eviltwin

Tbh OP your description of your infatuation with the other woman reads like a teenager. Of course it's not like that with your wife, it never is after you settle down. It's all new and exciting with the new girl and your head is so full of her I doubt you'd even notice a loving gesture from your wife. You seem to be here seeking approval more than advice. I think what you did was cowardly but you and your wife both deserve happiness so ending the marriage is probably for the best if you are really miserable. I think you should at least let them have a Christmas.

jamesieboy15

Thanks for the replies...I'm not expecting any sympathy here. And yes, I have thought about all that stuff. I've had loads of time to think about it. And I know that I would upset so many people, but I keep telling myself that it would be better in the long run and that it happens all the time. Marriage breakups are a common occurrence these days. My plan is to have a chat with her, and tell her things are rubbish and I'm not happy...I know she's not either...it's kinda like the elephant in the room. But like I'm not going to say I've been having an affair...if things do happen with this other girl afterwards, then I want people to think that it only started then...maybe that's ****ty of me, but I don't want things to end like that.

Ann84

OP - Your thread is honestly just so frustrating to read!

Your marriage is over because you've started a new relationship.
The conversations your having with this woman are really depressing, SHE is telling you to work it out at home? While having an affair with you? How completely disingenuous!!!

That aside, your marriage is over, you are not going to try to fix it because you are fixated on a 'better option' and your wife just can't compete - she doesn't even know she in competition!!!
You had a chance to save your marriage a year ago when you realized things wee going stale, but instead you chose to go online and start having an affair.
At this stage, if you want to save your marriage, you will need to block this new woman from your life, come clean to your wife and start working on saving your marriage - it may work, it may not but there is no going back and as long as you are in contact with the new woman, you will never truly try to fix things with your wife. Now, that is how to save your marriage...

I doubt you are going to do the above because it will be hard, really hard and also, you don't seem to have taken much interest in saving you marriage thus far, so the only other options you have are how best to separate from your wife which you can do in a number of ways;

1. Smart - Stop seeing new woman in the short term, speak to your wife and tell her you want to separate, start mediation and separation preceding, get a new house and figure out share parenting - this will take 6 months to set up and then start seeing new woman again

2. Not Smart - Keep seeing new woman through entire separation, wife ends up finding out, separation gets really messy - risk messy long drawn out breakup, difficult share parenting and you new woman getting stuck in the middle

And then there is the completely stupid approach of lying to your wife, keeping up an affair and pretending all will be grand. One, your wife will catch on at some stage and you will get caught, your new woman will get sick of being the other woman and start causing trouble or both will happen.... And all of that will end in tears, for you, your wife and most of all, your kids.

Personally i think you took the easy way out, rather than dealing with the unhappiness in your relationship, you walked out mentally. Problem is your wife is still there and much and all as you have moved on, she hasn't and you are being very unfair to her.
Whatever you do, stop pretending to your new woman that you have any interest in saving your marriage unless you plan on dumping her, you are both making a mockery of the situation to make yourselves feel better about the affair, it's pretty sad.

eviltwin

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies...I'm not expecting any sympathy here. And yes, I have thought about all that stuff. I've had loads of time to think about it. And I know that I would upset so many people, but I keep telling myself that it would be better in the long run and that it happens all the time. Marriage breakups are a common occurrence these days. My plan is to have a chat with her, and tell her things are rubbish and I'm not happy...I know she's not either...it's kinda like the elephant in the room. But like I'm not going to say I've been having an affair...if things do happen with this other girl afterwards, then I want people to think that it only started then...maybe that's ****ty of me, but I don't want things to end like that.

Your right, it is sh1tty not just to your wife who deserves honesty but to the new woman you claim to love but who will be treated like a dirty secret. You are only thinking about yourself and your needs dressed up as concern for your family as everyone will see right through it.

zeffabelli

Wow. You found someone to use as a transitional object. How cliche.

This is what moms do to ease the separation of their infants, give them a stuffed teddy or an article of clothing to help them separate.

Bored husbands find mistresses.... Stuffed teddies for grown ups.

jamesieboy15

zeffabelli wrote: »

Wow. You found someone to use as a transitional object. How cliche.

This is what moms do to ease the separation of their infants, give them a stuffed teddy or an article of clothing to help them separate.

Bored husbands fund mistresses.... Stuffed teddies for grown ups.

Very insightful...thanks.

eviltwin

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

Very insightful...thanks.

There is a ring of truth in it. If your marriage was over why didn't you just leave? Why start an affair and wait until you had found a replacement?

Ann84

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

Very insightful...thanks.

It actually may be, plus you have been offered a lot of more detailed insight to consider

HandsomeDan

The thing is James the new girl is just that, new. How do you know that when the novelty wears off you won't feel the same way towards her as you do your wife.

At the same time you only live once and there is no point in being miserable. If your kids are approaching grown up, then maybe you shoud make the move. If not maybe do the decent and stick around until they are.

RentDayBlues

You are a coward, simple as. You were unhappy in your marriage and rather than addressing this or ending the marriage you took the cowards option and you cheated.

You say marriages end and that it's commonplace. But the way you have ended it will blow your world apart, you will ruin all happy memories your family have had, you will devastate your wife and children. Don't for one second think that this won't come out, it always does.

This is all from the experience of a parent doing exactly what you have done. Putting themselves and their needs above that of their family.

Yes, relationships end, but the way you end them speaks volumes about you and your respect for your family, this will have ramifications you haven't even considered.

Do one thing for your family, be honest, don't do another cowardly act and try lie your way out

FortySeven

Poor kids. Seems they are the last consideration here. Op cares more about his jollies. Sadly, a very common occurrence these days.

LegacyUser

I don't think judgment really helps, yeah the OP is in the wrong, he wouldn't be here if he wasn't aware of that.

Fwiw, and I'm loathe to suggest breaking up a marriage, I think your marriage is over OP.

The best advice I could give would be find a way to separate that allows you and your wife stay amicable and be the best parents to your kids.

She is probably as unhappy as you and ye are both young enough to find happiness somewhere else. Get a good solicitor and good luck.

As an aside, yes, the kids must come first but too many people use this a chain to keep people in unhappy marriages. Kids can be fine if the separation is handled well, imo.

Cinque Cani

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that. It just seems the OP is behaving quite child-like and the novelty effect of this new woman will wear off just like it did with his wife. I doubt the OP felt zero passion or chemistry with his wife when they first met, so there's nothing to say he won't stop loving this new woman a few months/years from now and will end up moving on to another woman.

If that happens then it's time to end the relationship and find someone new. A passionless relationship is a waste of time.

The success of a relationship depends on how much depth it has, not how much length it has.

dudara

OP - have you and/or your wife made any efforts to work on your marriage? From reading your post, it doesn't sound like you have. If that's true, I have very little time for your behaviour.

jamesieboy15

HandsomeDan wrote: »

The thing is James the new girl is just that, new. How do you know that when the novelty wears off you won't feel the same way towards her as you do your wife.

At the same time you only live once and there is no point in being miserable. If your kids are approaching grown up, then maybe you shoud make the move. If not maybe do the decent and stick around until they are.

I just know that this is love...I've never felt this way about anyone ever. Unfortunately the kids are both young, and that's the killing point.

Colser

How did she cop a wedding ring in your fake profile if you didnt post real pics until later or am I reading the OP incorrectly?

jamesieboy15

RentDayBlues wrote: »

You are a coward, simple as. You were unhappy in your marriage and rather than addressing this or ending the marriage you took the cowards option and you cheated.

You say marriages end and that it's commonplace. But the way you have ended it will blow your world apart, you will ruin all happy memories your family have had, you will devastate your wife and children. Don't for one second think that this won't come out, it always does.

This is all from the experience of a parent doing exactly what you have done. Putting themselves and their needs above that of their family.

Yes, relationships end, but the way you end them speaks volumes about you and your respect for your family, this will have ramifications you haven't even considered.

Do one thing for your family, be honest, don't do another cowardly act and try lie your way out

I appreciate your views. I know my world and everyone else's will be blown apart...I'm willing to accept that. How can I be honest....tell her I've been having an affair, and it's over anyways.

Confucius say

Colser wrote: »

How did she cop a wedding ring in your fake profile if you didnt post real pics until later or am I reading the OP incorrectly?

A lot of men don't wear in the first place, my dad never did nor me

jamesieboy15

FortySeven wrote: »

Poor kids. Seems they are the last consideration here. Op cares more about his jollies. Sadly, a very common occurrence these days.

That's not true...you're just making a general assumption. Of course I care about the kids, and that is the main issue for me.

eviltwin

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

I appreciate your views. I know my world and everyone else's will be blown apart...I'm willing to accept that. How can I be honest....tell her I've been having an affair, and it's over anyways.

You have to be honest. Do you really think it's fair to lie to your wife, family and friends? Do you think it's fair to ask your lover to take a backseat for however long it takes for the dust to settle? It will come out anyway and just make things even worse.

jamesieboy15

dudara wrote: »

OP - have you and/or your wife made any efforts to work on your marriage? From reading your post, it doesn't sound like you have. If that's true, I have very little time for your behaviour.

No we have not...as I said, it's like the elephant in the room. I need to sit her down and discuss it with her.

Colser

Confucius say wrote: »

A lot of men don't wear in the first place, my dad never did nor me

Im reading it that he didnt show real pics until after she saw the ring?

jamesieboy15

Colser wrote: »

How did she cop a wedding ring in your fake profile if you didnt post real pics until later or am I reading the OP incorrectly?

We used swop pics...not face pics.

RentDayBlues

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

I appreciate your views. I know my world and everyone else's will be blown apart...I'm willing to accept that. How can I be honest....tell her I've been having an affair, and it's over anyways.

But you can't lie, if you want to try to save the marriage you need to tell her, if you want out, tell her the truth.

You've not had a one night stand, you've had a relationship outside of your marriage. You need to be honest with your wife, you owe her that.

Trust me, how you handle this will matter, you can't change what you've done, just don't make it worse by lying

Colser

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

That's not true...you're just making a general assumption. Of course I care about the kids, and that is the main issue for me.

If thats the case do your wife a favour and move on,she should be your priority.
If you are sure your marriage is over what exactly is stopping you telling your wife?

DeltaWhite

Just one thing to point out - how absolutely sure are you that your wife is going to say "yeah sure James, let's pack it in and give up on our marriage"

What if she turns around and says she wants to work on it and that it's worth saving?

You haven't thought this through, your new fling is clouding your thoughts and judgement. The other thread is different, yours is calculated. You knowingly went and created a profile, built up a relationship with this girl and now you're basically up sh!t creek.


All I can say is, if you're going to break up with your wife, you may aswell be honest with her. You know that saying about scorned women? I would be wary of trying to lie and cover your tracks. It will only make things worse for you.

FortySeven

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

That's not true...you're just making a general assumption. Of course I care about the kids, and that is the main issue for me.

I'm sure they are now but it was when you uploaded your profile, when you got chatting, when you went to meet, when you went to bed with her. That's when you should have been thinking of them.

Still, what's done is done. At the moment you should be considering yourself last, your wife next and your kids first. How you work this out without damaging your children dictates how you go about ending your marriage. Make sure they are somewhere else for a few days when you first tell your wife for example.

Kids will blame themselves anyway, the more you can do to mitigate this situation the better. Try to keep it amicable if possible. I do have sympathy for you, we all make mistakes but when it comes to mistakes involving children then the responsibilities are much greater as are the ramifications. Do not take those responsibilities lightly.

Too often these situations end in nasty court battles and hatred, you have to ensure this is kept as civil as possible for the kids sake.

Scarinae

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

Anyway, earlier this year, out of boredom, I set up a fake profile on a dating site, just for the fun.

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

After a week or so, (we still had eachothers numbers), she messaged me out of the blue...and we started talking again.

What really strikes me about the opening post is the fact that you're not taking any responsibility for your actions, as if you just set up a dating profile without intending anything and this girl pursued you rather than the other way around.

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

I couldn't tell you the last time I held my wife's hand.

When was the last time you tried?

The way you write about the new girl makes you sound like a teenager with his first girlfriend! A lot of these feelings are because she's someone new - you probably felt like that about your wife once.

Anyway, it seems pretty clear that your relationship with your wife is over so you should take the necessary steps to end things amicably. However I think that lying further is disrespectful to both your wife and the new girl. I'm not saying that your wife needs descriptions of what you and the new girl have been doing in bed, but if she asks you if there is someone else on the scene then you should be honest with her. You might think you're going to be able to hide it, but your wife will be asking questions to try to understand what went wrong, and she may even suggest avenues such as couples counselling in an attempt to save your marriage, which you clearly won't be interested in trying. However you seem to be more concerned with how this whole situation may change other people's opinions of you than how it is going to affect your wife and children.

jamesieboy15

Colser wrote: »

If thats the case do your wife a favour and move on,she should be your priority.
If you are sure your marriage is over what exactly is stopping you telling your wife?

I might be a di**head, but I'm not that much of a one to do it that close to Xmas.

zeffabelli

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

I might be a di**head, but I'm not that much of a one to do it that close to Xmas.

Your Christmas will be retrospectively seen as a lie and betrayal as you continue your charade through the holiday.

They will look back and be disgusted how could sit there and lie while you are ****ing another woman and plotting a divorce.

There is no way around the **** here bud.

jamesieboy15

DeltaWhite wrote: »

Just one thing to point out - how absolutely sure are you that your wife is going to say "yeah sure James, let's pack it in and give up on our marriage"

What if she turns around and says she wants to work on it and that it's worth saving?

You haven't thought this through, your new fling is clouding your thoughts and judgement. The other thread is different, yours is calculated. You knowingly went and created a profile, built up a relationship with this girl and now you're basically up sh!t creek.


All I can say is, if you're going to break up with your wife, you may aswell be honest with her. You know that saying about scorned women? I would be wary of trying to lie and cover your tracks. It will only make things worse for you.

If she turns around and says she wants to try, then of course I will. I will try my best, and if it works out, great. If it doesn't, then I can always say I tried.

eviltwin

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

If she turns around and says she wants to try, then of course I will. I will try my best, and if it works out, great. If it doesn't, then I can always say I tried.

Eh, where does your girlfriend, the woman you say you're in love with remember?, fit into that?

jamesieboy15

eviltwin wrote: »

Eh, where does your girlfriend, the woman you say you're in love with remember?, fit into that?

She has taken a step back until I decide what I want. The guilt is killing her and she can't do it anymore. She has made it quite clear that she wants me to try, as she is not waiting around for me. If she is still there if/when that happens, then she is willing to give it a try. She wants my decision to have nothing to do with her...she doesn't want to be clouding my judgement, if that makes sense.

DeltaWhite

But on one hand you're saying you're in love with this girl but on the other saying that if your wife wants to work it out you'll "try your best"???

You probably should have tried to work it out before setting up the profile. But what's done is done so best be honest now with your wife. I really think its in your best interest.

njs030

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

She has taken a step back until I decide what I want. The guilt is killing her and she can't do it anymore. She has made it quite clear that she wants me to try, as she is not waiting around for me. If she is still there if/when that happens, then she is willing to give it a try. She wants my decision to have nothing to do with her...she doesn't want to be clouding my judgement, if that makes sense.

If she is so noble I would wonder why she found it appropriate to chase a married man in the first place. As you said in your op she re-started contact knowing you were married.....it's a bit late to feel guilty AFTER having sex with someone else's husband.

Are you going to 100% commit to fixing your marriage if your wife wants that?

LegacyUser

Imo, there is no going back from this as you obviously don't want to fix your marriage. I also think that this girl isn't clouding his judgement as he was obviously extremely unhappy as he set up a dating profile, fake or not it was still set up.
You have messed up royally op, do what's right for your wife, get a divorce. Allow her to find someone who truly cares for her

smash

Op, you don't love your wife so you need to finish with her. However I don't think you really love the other girl either. I think she's been an escape for you! A divorce takes 4 years, so get the ball rolling asap.

For your children's sake, I hope your wife realises it's over too and that she feels in some way the same.

jamesieboy15

DeltaWhite wrote: »

But on one hand you're saying you're in love with this girl but on the other saying that if your wife wants to work it out you'll "try your best"???

You probably should have tried to work it out before setting up the profile. But what's done is done so best be honest now with your wife. I really think its in your best interest.

So ye all think that I should tell her the truth, which would result in it all being over and things being 1000 times worse. As opposed to having a chat about things and seeing what happens. And then if they don't improve, I move on and say nothing about what has happened. I'm obviously going to be a di**head either way, but I just think it would be alot better for everyone, if I didn't tell the truth.

jamesieboy15

notjustsweet wrote: »

If she is so noble I would wonder why she found it appropriate to chase a married man in the first place. As you said in your op she re-started contact knowing you were married.....it's a bit late to feel guilty AFTER having sex with someone else's husband.

Are you going to 100% commit to fixing your marriage if your wife wants that?

Ye don't understand...we have talked about this over and over. neither of us wanted this..we can't help the way we feel. She didn't choose me...I didn't choose her...it just happened. We have tried to walk away several times over the last few months, but we can't.

eviltwin

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

So ye all think that I should tell her the truth, which would result in it all being over and things being 1000 times worse. As opposed to having a chat about things and seeing what happens. And then if they don't improve, I move on and say nothing about what has happened. I'm obviously going to be a di**head either way, but I just think it would be alot better for everyone, if I didn't tell the truth.

Can you see nothing wrong in that approach at all? Are you really that blind to the situation? You have to tell your wife. You didn't just happen to sleep with someone, you looked for and started an affair with a woman you say you love and want to be with, how do you mend your marriage with all that going on and your wife unaware?

jamesieboy15

eviltwin wrote: »

Can you see nothing wrong in that approach at all? Are you really that blind to the situation? You have to tell your wife. You didn't just happen to sleep with someone, you looked for and started an affair with a woman you say you love and want to be with, how do you mend your marriage with all that going on and your wife unaware?

But if I tell her, it's 100% over anyway.

eviltwin

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

But if I tell her, it's 100% over anyway.

At least you will both know where you stand. You can't mend a relationship with a secret like this between you. And if she does end it you're free to be with the woman you love which is what you want anyway right?

jamesieboy15

eviltwin wrote: »

At least you will both know where you stand. You can't mend a relationship with a secret like this between you. And if she does end it you're free to be with the woman you love which is what you want anyway right?

Yes, it's what I want, but ideally not to end it in those circumstances.

Scarinae

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

So ye all think that I should tell her the truth, which would result in it all being over and things being 1000 times worse. As opposed to having a chat about things and seeing what happens. And then if they don't improve, I move on and say nothing about what has happened.

Why wouldn't you want it all to be over, since you're madly in love with this new girl? I thought you said it was totally over with your wife from your point of view? Are you trying to hedge your bets and make sure that things are definitely on with this new girl before you split with your wife?

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

I'm obviously going to be a di**head either way, but I just think it would be alot better for everyone, if I didn't tell the truth.

A lot better for everyone, or a lot better for you? As I said in my last post, you seem to be more concerned with how people are going to perceive you than with how the fallout from your actions will affect your children and your wife.

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

Ye don't understand...we have talked about this over and over. neither of us wanted this..we can't help the way we feel. She didn't choose me...I didn't choose her...it just happened. We have tried to walk away several times over the last few months, but we can't.

It "just happened"? After you set up a dating profile, messaged women who weren't your wife, met one of them and had sex with her. That doesn't "just happen", stop lying to yourself.

eviltwin

jamesieboy15 wrote: »

Yes, it's what I want, but ideally not to end it in those circumstances.

You're trying to leave with the least possible damage to yourself.....you're being completely selfish here.