Advice for helping daughter (4) understand death

robindch

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was once told by the daughter of a farmer that kids raised on farms usually have a very early and functional understanding of both sex and death.

Just checked dates and my kid was three years and ten months when she first came across death, on a fishing trip in West Cork. We got going on sex - ahem - three months later when she asked where baby deer came from (then cows, dogs, cats then eventually humans) - on a trip to the Black Forest. Again, no great problems with either of the concepts and was able to link them back to humans without any difficulty or embarrassment of any kind.

mickrock

robindch wrote: »

My kid had the same questions around the same time - I stuck to a strictly truthful approach - yes, people, animals and plants die, but their bodies go back into ground and their atoms come back as grass, flowers, trees and so on. Wasn't so happy as grass. My kid said that she'd prefer to come back as flowers, but that a tree would be ok too. I also mentioned that one's thoughts (by writing, videos, meeting), friends and family survive death too. And that if she has kids, that her own DNA will survive her death too and populate and dissipate amongst generations to come. She was quite positive about all of these things, though she didn't understand them all at first.

These may have been comforting ideas for your daughter but they imply a kind of continuity and even immortality.

Returning to the earth, being remembered and having descendants give the impression that we somehow carry on, rather than that death is the complete, total end of the self.

It sounds like a kind of reincarnation or afterlife in a different guise.

Akrasia

mickrock wrote: »

These may have been comforting ideas for your daughter but they imply a kind of continuity and even immortality.

Returning to the earth, being remembered and having descendants give the impression that we somehow carry on, rather than that death is the complete, total end of the self.

It sounds like a kind of reincarnation or afterlife in a different guise.

Not really though. For me, it represents a belonging, and despite being a part of a much bigger universe, knowing that the things we do matter in their own way.

People have a psychological aversion to doing pointless busy work

There have been studies where people have been asked to do some work, like sorting out coins, and at the end, for one group, the researcher just pours all the sorted coins back into the same bag they started in, and another group who had their coins taken away in their sorted bags

Guess which group was more satisfied with their day, even though they both spent the time doing exactly the same thing.

People want to know that the things we do makes a difference. This is where it is helpful to show that even after we die, parts of us live on, through our accomplishments, and through our offspring and in the memories of families and friends.

It doesn't imply that we'll be able to appreciate any of this after our lives are ended, but it gives us more comfort during the time when we are alive. (and the difference between this kind of comfort, and a religious one, is that this is honest and based on reality)

Michael OBrien

Bungy Girl wrote: »

Thanks all for your advice, and for taking the time to reply. Some very useful ideas there that I can use to help allay her fears in an age appropriate way. Thanks again.

The idea of death itself, as something fearful, should be tackled too. It can also offer an opportunity for positive moral and ethical behaviour.
If one recognises that they have a limited time with others, then that time is precious, therefore maximising the joy and quality of that time is paramount.
Liken it to a party where friends may leave at any time. You don't know when they may leave, or you may have to, so make the most of it while you are there.

Personally I was raised on a farm, so death was all around me, even early on, and my family raised me catholic, so hell and heaven were part of the 'normal' understanding of death, and it only made death FAR FAR worse.

As a young teen (don't recall exact age) I remember hearing a priest give a sermon about the risk of 'killing' your soul and not going to heaven (or hell but that was not mentioned), and I remember having hope for the first time. The idea of killing your soul was the most amazing thing ever, no afterlife meant I had hope again.

From reading the bible, god was obviously a monster so heaven was a horrible fate and hell was not much better. I truly believed it all, I just was intelligent enough to recognise how horrible it was going to be.

An afterlife was so awful I suffered depression for years. However that depression evaporated slowly as I realised that christianity was false, and finally at the start of 2011 I realised I was an atheist. I was quite angry at the lies I was told for decades by those that were supposed to love me.

I found far more joy in living as an atheist than I ever did as a christian, where I was master of my own fate and not condemned to a fate far worse than death that I had no way of escaping.

Death to me is simply a peaceful stop. An afterlife would be unbearable.

robindch

mickrock wrote: »

It sounds like a kind of reincarnation or afterlife in a different guise.

Yes, except that one's conscience dies, and that what I have said is true.

witchgirl26

Having seen my nephew struggle with my father's death, one piece of advice I would give is try to keep it simple and maybe don't go for the giant explanations. Now god was used in the explanation to my nephew as his mother is quite religious but I don't think that changes it. Think of follow up questions that might come from it. My nephew was told that grandad went to heaven. That was fine for a bit until he saw grandad's car and asked how he got to heaven if his car was still there. Same with explanation of a graveyard - it's a type of park where people go to remember someone who has died. I don't think you have to go into the fact that their body is under it. That would have just freaked out my nephew I know!

I remember having death explained to me quite young (my family are all a bit older so lost people at a young age). I know heaven was mentioned but the main gist was that yes, everyone does die and it means you can't see them anymore but you can always remember them and remember the fun that you had with them. But that it won't help to worry about people dying because that won't stop it or make you feel better.

OP if your daughter is still upset about it maybe consider getting one of those worry-eater soft toys that kids write their worries on a piece of paper & the toy "eats" it. Heard of it helping a few kids.

haveringchick

Sadly not everyone is old when they die so you don't want to get caught up in an untruth by telling your 4 year old that
I'd imagine that the best thing to do is tell her that you don't have all the answers (you don't) that no one has all the answers (they don't) but that she, you, her other parent and so on are healthy and well right now and looking forward to the holidays, that yes, everybody dies IN THE END. But we don't dwell on it because life is wonderful and we try to enjoy every day while we are here and be kind to everyone we meet
Of course loads of hugs cuddles and kisses
I would resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to demonstrate your atheism
The bereaved child is enjoying the comfort of her family's belief system
You don't want your child to try and contradict that

Shrap

haveringchick wrote: »

I would resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to demonstrate your atheism

What? What are you trying to say about the OP's parenting here? You think she's "tempted" to act in any way other than the most comforting way she can towards her daughter's fears? What an extraordinarily insulting comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

CelticRambler

Shrap wrote: »

What? What are you trying to say about the OP's parenting here? You think she's "tempted" to act in any way other than the most comforting way she can towards her daughter's fears? What an extraordinarily insulting comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

It's a valid observation. The OP is finding out that there are limits to what any parent can teach or not teach their own child. Her daughter is at an age now where she will be taught about life by every other child she comes in contact with and their parents too.

In this case, it sounds like the OP has been wrong-footed because she has never discussed death with her daughter. Now not only has her daughter been introduced to the concept by someone else, but has also been told that Heaven exists. Seeing as the girl is really bothered by the concept of death, Haveringchick is correct in saying that this isn't the time to get sidetracked by a talk about religion/faith/morality.

Obviously with the OP's disparaging reference to "fairy tales" there are tough times ahead for her, when other children in the playground start telling her daughter about other imaginary creatures, like Saint Nicholas/Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy ... and a few years later, the same ones then telling her that they don't exist! :pac:

Parenting is all about anticipating, and preparing your children for what is to come, not playing catch-up.

Shrap

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's a valid observation. The OP is finding out that there are limits to what any parent can teach or not teach their own child. Her daughter is at an age now where she will be taught about life by every other child she comes in contact with and their parents too.

So atheist parents should just sit back and let other children and their parents inform their children on life and death? Don't be ridiculous.

In this case, it sounds like the OP has been wrong-footed because she has never discussed death with her daughter. Now not only has her daughter been introduced to the concept by someone else, but has also been told that Heaven exists. Seeing as the girl is really bothered by the concept of death, Haveringchick is correct in saying that this isn't the time to get sidetracked by a talk about religion/faith/morality.

There are few people here (in fact I can't see one) who have suggested having an indepth discussion with a 4yr old about religion, never mind faith and morality. The daughter has been told that heaven exists as ONE theory of what happens when people die, but parents often have to gently and appropriately correct a child's understanding of something when they pick up a theory from friends. She has been introduced to the fact that death happens, by a friend's Gran dying. This is normal. An atheist speaking with their child in an age appropriate way about death is ALSO normal. It's a conversation all parents have with their children - religious people bring in their religious beliefs, atheists bring in their own beliefs. Simple.

Parenting is all about anticipating, and preparing your children for what is to come, not playing catch-up.

Precisely why atheist parents do not teach kids what they themselves don't believe, often with some exceptions like Santa and the tooth fairy. These are relatively harmless concepts on a par with fairy tales, that are not related to a child's understanding of life and death. Although, my youngest was disgusted that I'd lied to him about Santa, until I reminded him of all the extra pressies he'd had because of the lie.

Mr. CooL ICE

This is a summary of what the OP has been advised so far:

Don't lie to your child

Lie to your child

Don't lie to your child

Lie to your child

Don't lie to your child

Lie to your child

Also, "demonstrating" atheism and "pushing" atheism on a child? You would swear that being atheist is a recent phenomenon by these sort of comments.

I am not a parent, but I can only offer advice that makes sense; don't lie to your child and when it comes to to the unknown, teach them what you believe to be true.

challengemaster

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Also, "demonstrating" atheism and "pushing" atheism on a child? You would swear that being atheist is a recent phenomenon by these sort of comments.

It's also rather hilarious, because every child is inherently atheist until a religion is pushed onto them.

haveringchick

Shrap wrote: »

What? What are you trying to say about the OP's parenting here? You think she's "tempted" to act in any way other than the most comforting way she can towards her daughter's fears? What an extraordinarily insulting comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I don't agree with you that its an insulting comment and no I'm not one bit ashamed of myself and I have no idea why you would single out one line and overreact to this extent.
We want our children to take something away from every experience they have be it a negative or a positive situation.
Just as religious belief led parents of a child will use such a situation to reinforce the idea of heaven and afterlife in a comforting way, a non religious parent may see an opportunity to explain the finality of death as they see it.
This, in my opinion, doesn't work in such small kids.

kylith

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's a valid observation. The OP is finding out that there are limits to what any parent can teach or not teach their own child. Her daughter is at an age now where she will be taught about life by every other child she comes in contact with and their parents too.

In this case, it sounds like the OP has been wrong-footed because she has never discussed death with her daughter. Now not only has her daughter been introduced to the concept by someone else, but has also been told that Heaven exists. Seeing as the girl is really bothered by the concept of death, Haveringchick is correct in saying that this isn't the time to get sidetracked by a talk about religion/faith/morality.

.

Absolute balderdash. If the OP was a Hindu would you be telling them not to 'demonstrate/push their Hinduism' because the child had already been told about Christian heaven?

iguana

There is a great old episode of Sesame Street that deals fantastically with death. PBS made it after the actor who played Mr Hooper on the show died and they decided to deal with his death in a way that would help children understand and deal with the concept. The characters talked about how much they love him and will miss him and how death can make you feel sad but is part of life. There are parts of it on Youtube and it's mature, insightful and loving as the actors were all dealing with the death of their colleague so the emotion in the episode is very real. It was written in a way that the idea was that children would watch it with their parents and discuss it afterwards.

CelticRambler

kylith wrote: »

Absolute balderdash. If the OP was a Hindu would you be telling them not to 'demonstrate/push their Hinduism' because the child had already been told about Christian heaven?

No, the situation wouldn't arise. Parents who have even a moderate religious belief start to instill that belief into their children at a very early age - well before the child can fully understand what's going on. (Some call that indoctrination, others call it passing on family/cultural values)

Not having a religious belief means there is nothing to instill. Then, one day, someone comes along in the ordinary run of normal life - e.g. when a person dies - and makes a reference to a faith system. If the situation was a Hindu vs. Christian interpretation of "what comes next" it's not a problem - the parent just explains that they're two versions of the same belief.

The OP does not have that advantage. Like it or not, any faith system has a stronger appeal to developing minds than none, and like it or not, her daughter is surrounded by hundreds of thousands of people who believe in some version of Heaven. That puts the OP in a very difficult position - she can offer one explanation: You live, you die, you rot; that's it ... oh, and I'm going to die too - get used to it. Everyone else can offer the girl an alternative: we die, we go to another place where we'll be happy; you won't see us, but we'll be able to see you ...

That's a heck of a better offer for the child, but if the OP tries to dismiss that notion now, it'll create a tension for the child: does she side with her parents or with everyone else - the kind of tension that's not supposed to creep into the relationship until the teenage years. The child's problem is dealing with the biological fact of death; now is not the time to be telling her that she/her family is different to the rest of the community.

Shrap

haveringchick wrote: »

Just as religious belief led parents of a child will use such a situation to reinforce the idea of heaven and afterlife in a comforting way, a non religious parent may see an opportunity to explain the finality of death as they see it.
This, in my opinion, doesn't work in such small kids.

The insult to the OP's parenting derives from your clearly expressed thinking that any parent, religious or otherwise, would use such an opportunity to reinforce anything other than comfort.

Perhaps you can't imagine the concept of an atheist parent being able to offer comfort to a small child with their atheist opinion of death, brought to the child in an age appropriate way. Not only in my opinion, but in my practice of parenting, this does work in such small kids. Others have also said so. You seem to be in the business of claiming that in this instance only a lie will cause a child to be comforted?

haveringchick

Shrap wrote: »

The insult to the OP's parenting derives from your clearly expressed thinking that any parent, religious or otherwise, would use such an opportunity to reinforce anything other than comfort.

Perhaps you can't imagine the concept of an atheist parent being able to offer comfort to a small child with their atheist opinion of death, brought to the child in an age appropriate way. Not only in my opinion, but in my practice of parenting, this does work in such small kids. Others have also said so. You seem to be in the business of claiming that in this instance only a lie will cause a child to be comforted?

Have you not read the whole of my post, or did you speed read it until you found something to be angry outraged and offended by?
Seriously, defensive much?

endacl

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I don't think I like your attitude. Religion is based on hope, we can't prove it nor disprove it. So if I was you, I wouldn't push atheism on a child, because I could be wrong and a 4 year old wouldn't like to think that everyone is going to die and that would be the end of everything.

Anyway, moving away from that, I think that you should tell your child about "Heaven". And when she's old enough to think for herself, you can talk to her about what she believes in and what you believe in.

I'm an adult man and despite being religious, I get depressed about the thought of family members dying. I also worry about what happens after death. It affects my everyday life. I can't come to terms with death. Please, don't put that suffering on a 4 year old girl.

You don't push atheism on a child. Atheism is our natural default position.

haveringchick

endacl wrote: »

You don't push atheism on a child. Atheism is our natural default position.

Do you have evidence of this?

challengemaster

haveringchick wrote: »

Do you have evidence of this?

You want evidence that a child having received no previous teaching of religion miraculously doesn't hold any religious beliefs?

Really?

The mind boggles.

haveringchick

challengemaster wrote: »

You want evidence that a child having received no previous teaching of religion miraculously doesn't hold any religious beliefs?

Really?

The mind boggles.

Why would it be ridiculous to suggest that a child might have an idea that there was more to life than that which can be explained by logic?
Absolutely, the mind boggles!

FortySeven

haveringchick wrote: »

Do you have evidence of this?

Born in Saudi, Muslim.
Born in Ireland, catholic.
Born in Thailand, Buddhist.

While these are generalisations it is pretty clear to anyone without blind faith that religion is not hardwired to our brains, it is geographical. My father was not religious and it was just never mentioned, in School in the UK in the 80s I got religious education but it wasn't indoctrination. It was an education of ALL religions and how they operate.

I count myself lucky to have been never indoctrinated. I never believed.

Mr. CooL ICE

haveringchick wrote: »

Why would it be ridiculous to suggest that a child might have an idea that there was more to life than that which can be explained by logic?
Absolutely, the mind boggles!

When a baby is born, it is an atheist. It eats, sleeps, craps, pees, laughs and cries. It has no concept of god or an afterlife.

That is all the 'evidence' you need.

Shrap

haveringchick wrote: »

Seriously, defensive much?

No, not much. And I read your post about 5 times before replying to work out if there was any way I could have picked you up wrong. If I misinterpreted your meaning I figured you'd explain yourself differently, but unfortunately when you did that, you merely reinforced my initial impression.

Notavirus.exe

challengemaster wrote: »

You want evidence that a child having received no previous teaching of religion miraculously doesn't hold any religious beliefs?

Really?

The mind boggles.

There is no evidence. Why? Because the early people of the human race came up with different religions. If that wasn't the case, there would be no such thing as religion today and there wouldn't be sun worshipers and all of those guys still around. Forget Jesus Christ and Mohammad and Buddha and all those guys, I'm talking about the isolated tribes who believe that there is a god for everything. The sun, the sea, etc.

Your logic is this: Human beings don't come up with religious beliefs themselves. If that's the case then why do many large religions today worship one God?

This post is off-topic so I'm gonna fix that a bit.

On-topic

After reconsideration of my previous suggestion, I'd instead tell the 4 year old that we all go to a better place when we die. It's nothing they won't hear in school if you get what I'm saying... *COUGH* Catholicism *COUGH*

Seriously though, the schools tell the children that the religion is fact, they don't give people a choice to accept their teachings. However, not everyone comes out religious.

endacl

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I'd instead tell the 4 year old that we all go to a better place when we die.

What happens then, when it comes time for burial or cremation?

In terms of their cognitive development, a four year old is an extremely concrete, literal thinker. They don't 'get' nuanced or metaphorical language.

Shrap

endacl wrote: »

What happens then, when it comes time for burial or cremation?

In terms of their cognitive development, a four year old is an extremely concrete, literal thinker. They don't 'get' nuanced or metaphorical language.

Yeah, I won't ever forget the time me and my then 6 yr old niece were planting a tree, and out of ALL the places in the garden I could have picked.....we found the previous dog. "Is that.......fur?" says she. I answered yes, and her subsequent questions about skeletons and death, and guess what? She's not scarred for life.

Notavirus.exe

endacl wrote: »

In terms of their cognitive development, a four year old is an extremely concrete, literal thinker. They don't 'get' nuanced or metaphorical language.

I'm not sure I can agree that a person who watches "My Little Pony" is a literal thinker.

A four year old talking about death? :eek:

smokingman

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not having a religious belief means there is nothing to instill.

So you're one of those types that would go raping and murdering if you weren't told not to by a priest then yeah? How utterly preposterous!