Separation, one earner, no kids

John_Rogerson

Hello,

My wife and I are thinking of separating, but relatively amicably. I am the sole breadwinner, having a good job in financial services. She is an artist, with little or no regular income. We don't have kids. We rent an apartment. I pay all the bills, etc., we share what is left over. I am wondering what would happen in the event of a separation, i.e. what maintenance would I be required to pay her. She has never wanted to get even a part-time job for herself, preferring to persevere with her art career, because I have been supporting her. If I had to support us living separately, it would be a strain. What advice would people have? Should she have to make an effort to earn even a little income herself? Of course I am prepared to support her to some degree.

intheclouds

Well of course she should make some effort to support herself. It sounds a bit adult parasite-ish. Fair enough if your married arrangement was for you to be the only earner but if you break up and you've no assets to split and no kids to support I can't really see why you would be supporting her at all (or why she would expect you to?). It's not like she gave up a golden career to be a home maker and raise children, she chose to peruse her art, funded (very generously!) by you. I am sure that by law you will be required to pay some spousal support, you'd be best speaking to a solicitor about that. But surely your wife would rather not be financially dependent on her ex husband?

Ken.

Is their any chance seeing as it's amicable that ye could get in to mediation. If ye could draw up an agreement ye both agree on you can then bring it to a court to make it official.

A person is allowed to make a claim for maintenance following the breakdown of a marriage/civil partnership.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/parenting_alone/maintenance_and_unmarried_couples.html
In Ireland, if you are or have been married or in a civil partnership, you are entitled to apply to the court for maintenance from your spouse/civil partner to cover your own expenses. If you are in a cohabiting relationship, you have no such right.

Stheno

I'd agree with Ken if you are amicably splitting up, then apply for mediation and see if you can come to an agreement based on that.

In relation to spousal maintenance, the District Court can award up to €500 per week in spousal maintenance.

desbrook

Stheno wrote: »

I'd agree with Ken if you are amicably splitting up, then apply for mediation and see if you can come to an agreement based on that.

In relation to spousal maintenance, the District Court can award up to €500 per week in spousal maintenance.

The length of the marraige and your ages would be highly signifigant. A 50 yr old dependant wife coming out of a 20 yr marraige is very different to a 24 yr old coming out of a 3 yr marriage.

Stheno

desbrook wrote: »

The length of the marraige and your ages would be highly signifigant. A 50 yr old dependant wife coming out of a 20 yr marraige is very different to a 24 yr old coming out of a 3 yr marriage.

Absolutely, hence why the latitude of up to €500 per week

jimmycrackcorm

You're in a very lucky position, no kids, no mortgage. You're wife would be expected to earn a living herself. As another poster mentioned, there is a distinction between being married just a few years and a lifetime, but there's no free lunch.

Uboat

She has no kids, why should he support her?! 500 per week - it's crazy! Zero per week! She has hands and legs, go and find work.

Stheno

Uboat wrote: »

She has no kids, why should he support her?! 500 per week - it's crazy! Zero per week! She has hands and legs, go and find work.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You're in a very lucky position, no kids, no mortgage. You're wife would be expected to earn a living herself. As another poster mentioned, there is a distinction between being married just a few years and a lifetime, but there's no free lunch.

Guys, educate yourselves, under Irish divorce/seperation law, you cannot absolve yourself of the requirement to maintain ones spouse.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/maintenance_orders_and_agreements.html

From the link:

Under Irish law, there is no clean break from the obligation to support one's spouse and children, or for civil partners to support each other. A clause in a separation agreement stating that a spouse/civil partner will not seek maintenance in the future or seek increased maintenance is unenforceable.

The amount awarded can be up to €500 per week it's not automatically going to be €500 per week and as desbrook says it can depend on the length of the marriage among other factors.

castle

Just wondering why dont you go straight to divorce and split savings 50/50 and then start a new life .

Stheno

castle wrote: »

Just wondering why dont you go straight to divorce and split savings 50/50 and then start a new life .

You have to be seperated five years before you can apply for a divorce

intheclouds

castle wrote: »

Just wondering why dont you go straight to divorce and split savings 50/50 and then start a new life .

They have to separate first for 5 years under law. Regardless, unless his missus agrees to a straight split as above, she can still go after him for spousal maintenance.

Stheno

intheclouds wrote: »

They have to separate first for 5 years under law. Regardless, unless his missus agrees to a straight split as above, she can still go after him for spousal maintenance.

No, be very clear here, regardless of the circumstances, the former spouse can initiate a claim for maintenance for life.

Very very rare tbh, but the obligation is lifelong.

Imo it should be part of pre marriage courses, or an alternative that all couples getting married should have to be made aware of.

John_Rogerson

Thanks for the advice folks.

It would seem I have to find a balance between what is regarded giving her fair maintenance and what she should be expected to do to support herself living alone.

Stheno

John_Rogerson wrote: »

Thanks for the advice folks.

It would seem I have to find a balance between what is regarded giving her fair maintenance and what she should be expected to do to support herself living alone.

Mediation will help with that. If mediation doesn't work out, you'll both have to engage your own solicitors to work out something.

John_Rogerson

Yes, looks like mediation is the best bet.

Two questions:

1) I read somewhere about the earning potential of the dependent spouse. Does anyone have experience of that? How is it assessed? She's fit and healthy with a 3rd level education.

2) How long does the maintenance agreement last? Until divorce, or beyond divorce?

Stheno

John_Rogerson wrote: »

Yes, looks like mediation is the best bet.

Two questions:

1) I read somewhere about the earning potential of the dependent spouse. Does anyone have experience of that? How is it assessed? She's fit and healthy with a 3rd level education.

2) How long does the maintenance agreement last? Until divorce, or beyond divorce?

No experience of earning potential, what age is she and when did she last work?

The maintenance agreement is subject to change so e.g. if she did start working, you can go back to mediation/court to have the agreement modified appropriately.

My agreement with my ex was tiered so that when he started working the level of maintenance changed

You have no clear end here, there is no such thing as a clean break with an Irish seperation or divorce, your obligation could potentially be lifelong

John_Rogerson

Thanks for the quick reply.

She's 37, has worked as teacher part-time over last 10 years. Got married in 2005.

Hmm.. no clean break.. Unless both parties agree presumably.

Stheno

John_Rogerson wrote: »

Thanks for the quick reply.

She's 37, has worked as teacher part-time over last 10 years. Got married in 2005.

Hmm.. no clean break.. Unless both parties agree presumably.

So she is currently working? Or did she stop?

On the clean break, you need to clearly understand this. There is NO clean break, and you cannot sign away that right full stop.

From the link I posted earlier in this thread.

Under Irish law, there is no clean break from the obligation to support one's spouse and children, or for civil partners to support each other. A clause in a separation agreement stating that a spouse/civil partner will not seek maintenance in the future or seek increased maintenance is unenforceable

The link is http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/maintenance_orders_and_agreements.html
have a read through it, it may be useful.

cerastes

Jesus christ, why did I ever get married? I must have been insane.
This is frightening, I never did a pre marriage course myself, but I wonder is this the kind of thing that would be in it? Id say some people would be up in arms and protest to have it removed!
It should be a legal requirement to do a pre marriage course which covers legal and obligations aspects.

there is nothing in that link, kind of proves my point?

John_Rogerson

OK, she is not currently working.

Yea, I've read that page alright.

Stheno

cerastes wrote: »

Jesus christ, why did I ever get married? I must have been insane.
This is frightening, I never did a pre marriage course myself, but I wonder is this the kind of thing that would be in it? Id say some people would be up in arms and protest to have it removed!
It should be a legal requirement to do a pre marriage course which covers legal and obligations aspects.

there is nothing in that link, kind of proves my point?

I've fixed the link, so you can read it now

To be fair, I'd imagine it is fairly rare that the no clean break actually gets invoked, but it's there in law. It applies to both spouses, so if in future Ops wife went on to be the next Van Gogh and earned squillions, he could potentially make a claim off her

The one circumstance in which the lifelong obligation ends is if the former spouse remarries.

John_Rogerson wrote: »

OK, she is not currently working.

Yea, I've read that page alright.

Reality starting to hit? There's a guide here on how the courts assess maintenance for spouses

http://businessandlegal.ie/ancillary-orders-in-judicial-separation-and-divorce

The first thing you guys both need to do is book a mediation appointment, that's a free service. In the interim, depending on how amicable your split is you can discuss your thoughts on how to deal with the following in advance:

1. Living arrangements: Are you tied into a lease? Will one or both of you move out? Will you both stay until the end of the lease? That won't be practical if it's a one bed apartment.
2. Her plans for the future: Is she planning on getting a job? Will she be signing on for benefits/assistance once you seperate? (She should until she gets a job)
3. Her expectations as to how she is going to support herself: Is she expecting you to provide maintenance?
4. Shared belongings: How will you split any shared belongings?

endacl

John_Rogerson wrote: »

She's 37, has worked as teacher part-time over last 10 years.

I work part time as a teacher. It leaves loads of time to work on other stuff. In my case, developing a second career as a musician. And a third as a psychotherapist. Even full time, teaching is a part time job. She has plenty of time in the evenings to work on her art. Like most artists do. If she can't make a living at it at this point, she never will, and your settlement agreement should reflect the fact that although capable, she refuses to support herself.

John_Rogerson

endacl wrote: »

I work part time as a teacher. It leaves loads of time to work on other stuff. In my case, developing a second career as a musician. And a third as a psychotherapist. Even full time, teaching is a part time job. She has plenty of time in the evenings to work on her art. Like most artists do. If she can't make a living at it at this point, she never will, and your settlement agreement should reflect the fact that although capable, she refuses to support herself.

Interesting.. I have been intimating that she will need to look at getting at least a part-time job, and I think she realises that.

cerastes

Stheno wrote: »

I've fixed the link, so you can read it now

To be fair, I'd imagine it is fairly rare that the no clean break actually gets invoked, but it's there in law. It applies to both spouses, so if in future Ops wife went on to be the next Van Gogh and earned squillions, he could potentially make a claim off her

The one circumstance in which the lifelong obligation ends is if the former spouse remarries.



Reality starting to hit? There's a guide here on how the courts assess maintenance for spouses

http://businessandlegal.ie/ancillary-orders-in-judicial-separation-and-divorce

The first thing you guys both need to do is book a mediation appointment, that's a free service. In the interim, depending on how amicable your split is you can discuss your thoughts on how to deal with the following in advance:

1. Living arrangements: Are you tied into a lease? Will one or both of you move out? Will you both stay until the end of the lease? That won't be practical if it's a one bed apartment.
2. Her plans for the future: Is she planning on getting a job? Will she be signing on for benefits/assistance once you seperate? (She should until she gets a job)
3. Her expectations as to how she is going to support herself: Is she expecting you to provide maintenance?
4. Shared belongings: How will you split any shared belongings?

If she has no contribution from not working, she might not be eligible for benefits, no?
Id be encouraging her to get a job, as good a one as she is educated and capable of that is available. Whatever the OP is required to give, that cant be to his own detriment surely? I mean him being worse off than her when she wont work?

Stheno

endacl wrote: »

I work part time as a teacher. It leaves loads of time to work on other stuff. In my case, developing a second career as a musician. And a third as a psychotherapist. Even full time, teaching is a part time job. She has plenty of time in the evenings to work on her art. Like most artists do. If she can't make a living at it at this point, she never will, and your settlement agreement should reflect the fact that although capable, she refuses to support herself.

John_Rogerson wrote: »

Interesting.. I have been intimating that she will need to look at getting at least a part-time job, and I think she realises that.

The link I posted above lists the factors involved in determining maintenance.

One of them is the potential earning power of each spouse, and another is earning capacity, whilst another is the standard of living of the spouse prior to seperation.

Factors the Court Considers When Making Orders on Divorce and Judicial Separation

The factors the Court will consider when making these orders are

I. The actual and potential financial resources of both spouses

II. The actual and likely financial needs, obligations and responsibilities of both spouses

III. The standard of living of the spouses before the separation or divorce

IV. The length of marriage and the ages of the spouses

V. Spousal contributions-this is increasing in importance in the Court’s considerations and looks at not just financial contributions but time spent looking after home and family

VI. Earning capacity or lack of it due to time spent in the home due to marital responsibilities and the lack of future earning capacity due to the sacrifice of career made during marriage

VII. Statutory entitlements-any benefit or income either spouse is entitled to in law

VIII. Conduct-this is not a hugely important factor unless the conduct is egregious

IX. The accommodation needs of both spouses

X. Any separation agreement entered into by the spouses and which is still in effect

All of these factors will be considered under the overarching goal of attempting to ensure proper provision is made for both the spouse and any dependent members of the family.

It is noteworthy that even where there is a full and final settlement clause in the divorce the Courts can still make a change to any maintenance order as in Irish law there is really no “clean break”.

While I agree that ops spouse should be getting a job, if she does decide to pursue maintenance even in the short term via the courts, I do think she would have it looked upon favourably, not necessarily getting 500 a week, but certainly some level of contribution.

After ten years of not working, she's looking at earning a fairly basic wage at first until she moves onwards.

Stheno

cerastes wrote: »

If she has no contribution from not working, she might not be eligible for benefits, no?
Id be encouraging her to get a job, as good a one as she is educated and capable of that is available. Whatever the OP is required to give, that cant be to his own detriment surely? I mean him being worse off than her when she wont work?

No that's what JSA is for, contributions only count for JSB, which is based on PRSI, JSA (job seekers allowance as opposed to benefits) is not based on any PRSI contributions.

No as two adults one would not expect her to end up better off than him certainly. There are no children involved which makes a difference imo.

However, the view of the courts in relation to maintenance does take how they lived as a couple and the standard of living in that regard into account, so expecting her to live off JSA while she looks for a job as someone who is relatively unattractive as a job candidate will imo be looked upon unfavourably by a court, so there's a middle ground there that needs to be reached.

When I split with my ex, they were unemployed, I moved out, they stayed in the house we owned, and I paid the mortgage and for all upkeep of the house/taxes until they got a job. When they did get a job, as it was above a point at which we had agreed I would pay maintenance, it stopped.

Did it impact on my lifestyle? For sure, I'd to pay rent etc, and the costs of the house which I'd previously paid, but I still had a better lifestyle than my ex. That was a mediated agreement, and even the mediator thought it a very fair agreement, as did my solicitor.

There are some paralells with my situation and the op, I was nine years married, and my ex hadn't worked for three years at the point we seperated.

John_Rogerson

Stheno wrote: »

No that's what JSA is for, contributions only count for JSB, which is based on PRSI, JSA (job seekers allowance as opposed to benefits) is not based on any PRSI contributions.

No as two adults one would not expect her to end up better off than him certainly. There are no children involved which makes a difference imo.

However, the view of the courts in relation to maintenance does take how they lived as a couple and the standard of living in that regard into account, so expecting her to live off JSA while she looks for a job as someone who is relatively unattractive as a job candidate will imo be looked upon unfavourably by a court, so there's a middle ground there that needs to be reached.

When I split with my ex, they were unemployed, I moved out, they stayed in the house we owned, and I paid the mortgage and for all upkeep of the house/taxes until they got a job. When they did get a job, as it was above a point at which we had agreed I would pay maintenance, it stopped.

Did it impact on my lifestyle? For sure, I'd to pay rent etc, and the costs of the house which I'd previously paid, but I still had a better lifestyle than my ex. That was a mediated agreement, and even the mediator thought it a very fair agreement, as did my solicitor.

There are some paralells with my situation and the op, I was nine years married, and my ex hadn't worked for three years at the point we seperated.

That seems very reasonable. I am hopeful that we can some to a settlement agreeable to both of us. In our case, there's no mortgage involved.

Stheno

John_Rogerson wrote: »

That seems very reasonable. I am hopeful that we can some to a settlement agreeable to both of us. In our case, there's no mortgage involved.

And do you know, that makes things that little bit easier It's one less hassle to deal with

Have you started talking to your wife about how you might seperate?

endacl

John_Rogerson wrote: »

Interesting.. I have been intimating that she will need to look at getting at least a part-time job, and I think she realises that.

Don't waste your breath intimating. Tell her.

Stheno

endacl wrote: »

Don't waste your breath intimating. Tell her.

This is an amicable split.

Introducing ultimatums will not help in reaching an amicable agreement.

OP needs to sit down with his wife and start discussing how they will move forward. A statement such as "I imagine that you'll need to find a job" will be much more palatable than "you must get a job"

bizidea

Wow I never heard of spouse maintenance before unless there's kids involved its actually a bit scary wouldn't it be the same if it was the other way around and the op was the one not working

Stheno

bizidea wrote: »

Wow I never heard of spouse maintenance before unless there's kids involved its actually a bit scary wouldn't it be the same if it was the other way around and the op was the one not working

Yes. Spousal maintenance can actually be a far greater financial burden than child maintenance.

Read the couple of posts where I've put in links about why it is there, and it might give you a greater understanding of why it is there.

One of the reasons is to protect a spouse who has been a homemaker for a number of years and has no income of their own.