5 month lease. Issued with notice of termination before I acquired legal rights

dancingqueen

I commenced a tenancy in July, signed a five month lease.

Today I have a notice of termination just before my sixth month... Is a photocopy of a notice of termination valid?

gordongekko

What form do you expect it in?

dancingqueen

I don't usually write letters to people, photocopy it and give them a photocopy...

housetypeb

Why sign a five month lease if you weren't going to leave at the end of five months?
One could say both the landlord and tenant were being crafty.
The tenant possibly hoping to get part iv rights after six months, and the landlord taking steps to prevent this by having a 5 month lease and issuing notice to terminate before the six months rule takes effect.

Slydice

some information on the ending of tenancies and notice here
http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/ending-your-tenancy/

Arbiter of Good Taste

Of course it's valid. The LL obviously signed it, took a copy and gave you the photocopy, keeping the original for his own records.

Mrs OBumble

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Of course it's valid. The LL obviously signed it, took a copy and gave you the photocopy, keeping the original for his own records.

Aye, I think the thread title should be Crafty Tenant, really.

dancingqueen

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Aye, I think the thread title should be Crafty Tenant, really.

I am unsure as to the nature of this comment.

I am just a little shocked to have received a termination notice three weeks before Christmas, and a month after I expressed my intention to stay as a tenant in the flat; which was accepted at the time.

I have sought advice and it appears that the landlord can be reported, for taking a deposit from me for a flat advertised for 1+ year, before a lease was signed, and then noting to me that the lease was in fact for five months.

wonski

dancingqueen wrote: »

I am unsure as to the nature of this comment.

I am just a little shocked to have received a termination notice three weeks before Christmas, and a month after I expressed my intention to stay as a tenant in the flat; which was accepted at the time.

I have sought advice and it appears that the landlord can be reported, for taking a deposit from me for a flat advertised for 1+ year, before a lease was signed, and then noting to me that the lease was in fact for five months.

You signed it. It doesn't matter what the original ad was. You should have asked for a 1 year lease when you were about to move in.

athtrasna

dancingqueen wrote: »

I am unsure as to the nature of this comment.

I am just a little shocked to have received a termination notice three weeks before Christmas, and a month after I expressed my intention to stay as a tenant in the flat; which was accepted at the time.

I have sought advice and it appears that the landlord can be reported, for taking a deposit from me for a flat advertised for 1+ year, before a lease was signed, and then noting to me that the lease was in fact for five months.

OP you originally titled this thread "crafty landlord " but in accordance with the lease you signed there's nothing crafty about it.

Sure, the timing is unfortunate but as the other poster said, you should have pushed for a longer contract before now.

The 5 month contract will become increasingly common as a way for landlords to see how they get on with tenants before they gain legal rights. Not to mention a way of getting rent increases more often.

cerastes

Reported for what exactly? You signed a lease for 5 months,how can you be surprised by this? The place may have been advertised for a year but it seems you and the landlord came to an agreement,you did sign the lease,correct? If you had an issue at the time,why didn't you raise it then?

davo10

dancingqueen wrote: »

I commenced a tenancy in July, signed a five month lease.

Op you can report the LL to whomever you want, but once you inform them of the above, the conversation will come to an abrupt end. The term of the lease you signed has expired, notice of termination was served and as you are there less than 6 months, Part 4 tenancy rights do not apply. If you are a good tenant and pay the agreed rent on time, I cannot think of a reason why the LL would want you out, is there more to this story?

Arbiter of Good Taste

dancingqueen wrote: »

I am unsure as to the nature of this comment.

I am just a little shocked to have received a termination notice three weeks before Christmas, and a month after I expressed my intention to stay as a tenant in the flat; which was accepted at the time.

I have sought advice and it appears that the landlord can be reported, for taking a deposit from me for a flat advertised for 1+ year, before a lease was signed, and then noting to me that the lease was in fact for five months.

I'm always amused at how blasé people are when it comes to signing their names to a legal document. OP the only thing shocking in this scenario is your sheer naivety. If you weren't happy with a five month lease, then why did you sign it?

<MOD SNIP >

The LL is fully entitled to ask the person to move out in this instance morals have nothing to do with it.

athtrasna

Lima your posts were deleted as unhelpful and untrue. The landlord is acting entirely legally in this case.

Mod

lima

Here is true and helpful advice to the OP:

OP, helpful advice from me would be to analyze your lease in meticulous detail in case any future landlord tries to misguide you into signing a 5 month lease when you might assume, due to initial information, that it is a longer lease. Unfortunately the fault lies with you for not reading the lease fully and for having a sense of trust in your landlord. Do not trust them under any circumstances to provide honest clarity, let this be a lesson in dealing with Irish landlords.

borderlinemeath

Some tenants would be delighted with only signing a 5 month lease, particularly if they're starting a new job or living in a new area, there's always a chance it might not work out. There's always posts on this forum about breaking leases early and trying to get out of yearly contracts.

Given that tenants have security on a tenancy for 4 years after a six month period, I think 5 month leases should become the norm. It gives both the landlord and tenant a settling in period to see whether the property is suited to the tenant and vice versa.

borderlinemeath

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Given that tenants have security on a tenancy for 4 years after a six month period, I think 5 month leases should become the norm.

True. The law of unintended consequences, everytime the market gets messed with.

cerastes

athtrasna wrote: »

OP you originally titled this thread "crafty landlord " but in accordance with the lease you signed there's nothing crafty about it.

Sure, the timing is unfortunate but as the other poster said, you should have pushed for a longer contract before now.

The 5 month contract will become increasingly common as a way for landlords to see how they get on with tenants before they gain legal rights. Not to mention a way of getting rent increases more often.

Is there even a need? A landlord could give notice before the 6 month period anyway, even if the lease was for a year.
The OP suggests the landlord was underhand, but in reality the landlord set out the duration of the lease and the OP then signed it?
I dont see the issue?
If the landlord and tenant had signed the lease for a year, the tenant (OP) could have expected they were staying a year, if the landlord then gave notice to leave prior to the 6 months, that might be considered crafty.

Gumbo

lima wrote: »

Here is true and helpful advice to the OP:

OP, helpful advice from me would be to analyze your lease in meticulous detail in case any future landlord tries to misguide you into signing a 5 month lease when you might assume, due to initial information, that it is a longer lease. Unfortunately the fault lies with you for not reading the lease fully and for having a sense of trust in your landlord. Do not trust them under any circumstances to provide honest clarity, let this be a lesson in dealing with Irish landlords.

The OP knew they were signing a 5 month lease to begin with. You obviously have a gripe with landlords that may require another thread or treatment.

4ensic15

cerastes wrote: »

Is there even a need? A landlord could give notice before the 6 month period anyway, even if the lease was for a year.
The OP suggests the landlord was underhand, but in reality the landlord set out the duration of the lease and the OP then signed it?
I dont see the issue?
If the landlord and tenant had signed the lease for a year, the tenant (OP) could have expected they were staying a year, if the landlord then gave notice to leave prior to the 6 months, that might be considered crafty.

A landlord can't end a fixed term early other than for breach of obligations by the tenant. If a lease is signed for 12 months then the tenancy must last 12 months. The PRTB even go so far as to say that the landlord can't even give notice during a fixed term.

lima

kceire wrote: »

The OP knew they were signing a 5 month lease to begin with. You obviously have a gripe with landlords that may require another thread or treatment.

The OP said:

"a month after I expressed my intention to stay as a tenant in the flat; which was accepted at the time."

So 4 months into the lease he expressed an intention to stay on, which was accepted by the landlord (verbally I imagine).

The landlord reneged on his acceptance of a lease extension, right before Christmas. That's a pretty wicked thing to do.

wonski

lima wrote: »

The OP said:

"a month after I expressed my intention to stay as a tenant in the flat; which was accepted at the time."

So 4 months into the lease he expressed an intention to stay on, which was accepted by the landlord (verbally I imagine).

The landlord reneged on his acceptance of a lease extension, right before Christmas. That's a pretty wicked thing to do.

It is a fixed term lease.

I am not sure what effect expressing ones intention to stay would have on a fixed term contract tbh.

I have received a number of tenancy agreements over last few years, and always have them ready a month or so before the end of the term.

There are advantages for both - landlord and tenant - to sign a fixed term contract. There are both bad tenants and landlords out there, OP's landlord did nothing wrong and it is the tenant's responsibility to ensure he has a place to live after his current contract expires.

cerastes

4ensic15 wrote: »

A landlord can't end a fixed term early other than for breach of obligations by the tenant. If a lease is signed for 12 months then the tenancy must last 12 months. The PRTB even go so far as to say that the landlord can't even give notice during a fixed term.

There was no mention of the lease being a fixed term and while it might seem obvious that it is or was, it might be a 5 month periodic lease.
Typically year leases are signed but they aren't necessarily fixed term, in which case the landlord could still give 28 days notice I believe up to the day before 6 months has elapsed.

4ensic15

wonski wrote: »

It is a fixed term lease.

I am not sure what effect expressing ones intention to stay would have on a fixed term contract tbh.

I have received a number of tenancy agreements over last few years, and always have them ready a month or so before the end of the term.

There are advantages for both - landlord and tenant - to sign a fixed term contract. There are both bad tenants and landlords out there, OP's landlord did nothing wrong and it is the tenant's responsibility to ensure he has a place to live after his current contract expires.

The O?p can challenge the Notice of termination.

wonski

4ensic15 wrote: »

The O?p can challenge the Notice of termination.

There is no notice required.

Fixed term is a term, no need for a notice.

That is my understanding.

4ensic15

wonski wrote: »

There is no notice required.

Fixed term is a term, no need for a notice.

That is my understanding.

That is not what the RTA says. A notice is always required. The notice must be in writing and can't be incorporated into the original lease.

wonski

cerastes wrote: »

There was no mention of the lease being a fixed term and while it might seem obvious that it is or was, it might be a 5 month periodic lease.
Typically year leases are signed but they aren't necessarily fixed term, in which case the landlord could still give 28 days notice I believe up to the day before 6 months has elapsed.

5 months lease is a fixed term lease.

It is mentioned in op.

wonski

4ensic15 wrote: »

That is not what the RTA says. A notice is always required. The notice must be in writing and can't be incorporated into the original lease.

What is RTA?

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

4ensic15

wonski wrote: »

What is RTA?

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 As amended. I don't know why you are linking to that page. You should read the Act itself.

http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/2004/0027.html#partvi-chapvii-sec112

58.—(1) From the relevant date, a tenancy of a dwelling may not be terminated by the landlord or the tenant by means of a notice of forfeiture, a re-entry or any other process or procedure not provided by this Part.

wonski

4ensic15 wrote: »

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 As amended.

Thanks. I was like what does Road Traffic Act has to do with it.

Op received notice of termination.

Case closed.