Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120408973#Comment_120408973

He's saying they've caught up, particularly after tax.

I wasn't a million miles away at about 73k after 8years but have since taken a pay cut to move to the public sector.

AAAAAAAAA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120408973#Comment_120408973

No, but I pay a minimum tax rate of 40%, so the lads on 65k are coming out the same or better.

Wildly Boaring

Never heard of these guys before and I doubt their post on the Engineer's Ireland LinkedIn page is going to last long.

They are not fans of EI in it's current guise.

Can't say I have found EI to be particularly useful myself, but nothing to do with this website......

https://conscientious-observers.com/2023/04/17/engineers-ireland-progressively-less-relevant-to-hea-graduate-engineers/

SteadyNed

Hi all,

OP here, all of eight years after my original post. For anyone who’s interested, I’m finally out of the industry. Thank God.

Since the time of my original post, I’ve come close to leaving to study another field, but you know yourselves, a family arrives and eventually you end up trapped. Following the advice of those in the industry, I made sure to get my CEng, progress up the chain in consultancy to Principal level, I tried out a local authority role, finally returning to consultancy for a step up in pay.

After months (you could even say years) of broken sleep caused by project stress, I finally decided I’d had enough. My work was having a negative effect on my family life, while not paying enough for me to comfortably afford a decent family holiday at the end of the year. Luckily my brother-in-law has a small delivery business that I’ll now be working for. It’s a step down in pay fair enough, but I’ll now have enough time and brain-space to enjoy time outside work.  

Sitting here, I’m finding it hard to eloquently describe how poor I found the industry over the years, an industry which requires f***ing over another party to make money. Each organisation itself operates on a basis of blame-shifting and cutting the legs from competitors. What does this lead to? Razor thin margins, high risk, and a stressed-out workforce. Even working briefly on the client’s side, similar pressures didn’t go away. You could say that procurement policy and practice could be the root cause of this, but we don’t help ourselves. Even recently with the economy going gangbusters, some of the tenders I was seeing were scarcely believable. Maybe it’s the fear of no work continually outweighing everything else.

At the end of the day, every design oversight, every claim, every budget and programme overrun has a human behind it, and the combative nature of what we do simply leads to suffering, obviously with some handling it better than others. Personally, I’ve had some very dark days over the last few years, which the pittance we’re paid doesn’t compensate at all. Even when I reflect on the many ‘wins’ I’ve had, did they just cause hardship for someone else?

Why did I stay in the industry so long? Why does anyone? Fear and hope I suppose. There was the hope that things would get better. I was ‘lucky’ enough to secure a graduate job in the height of the financial crisis, working through those uncertain years to 2016/7 and to the current boom times. I remember early in my career, a director saying that eventually I would be able to name my price because of likely future shortages in the industry. In reality we’re all just doing twice the work for a very modest salary increase.

Part of my frustration has always been the experiences of counterparts in other professional fields. My friends in finance, accountancy, law, sure had a very challenging first few years out of college while gaining their professional qualifications, but they are subsequently earning double my engineering salary once they progress to industry, while their work stress is certainly no worse than ours.

I won’t deny there’s an element of entitlement (you could say snobbery) in my feelings, but it is tough to have done everything you were supposed to do growing up, study hard, work your arse off during college etc. etc. to see almost all of your peers, whether they be accountants, bricklayers, tech and pharma workers doing a hell of a lot better. Money isn’t everything of course, but what other advantage does civil give you? Certainly not work-life balance.  

I wish everyone who remains in the industry well. For those who enjoy it, my sincere apologies if you feel that my sentiments do not represent the majority, but I'd wager otherwise. For those who feel similar to myself, you know deep down that it’s very unlikely to get any better, but if it does for you, remember that it will be at the expense of the project staff you have working overtime for free. 

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120736660#Comment_120736660

Hi

I saw your response the other day and kept a note to respond. It's what I see as the pertinent issue in the industry today.

There is no young person I would advise to get into Civil/Structural Engineering, or indeed enter any wet trade.

We recently had a survey in our company about: who would advise our daughters to enter the industry. Nobody replied yes, this was seen by the instigator of the poll as chauvinism, until I asked we rerun the poll with kids (male or female). There were 2 this time (of over 50).

As your, very well written, post puts outlines. It's not just the pay.

The procurement methods create a race to the bottom. Be that consultancy, design, construction or maintenance.

In turn this leads to the claim culture, under-resourcing, crazy programmes, poor pay, non-payment of subbies......

These lead to mistakes, stress, poor design, poor quality work, staff turnover, liquation of subbies, agro.......

Every client wants value yet few are able to discern it.

There are main contractors in this country who should never win another project.

There are subbies who shouldn't exist.

There are designers who will issue anything to get the drawings out to site.

There are exceptions. Some of the developers do understand the value in reliable designers and subbies.

Some of the states / semi-states have realised the value in steady main contractors with continual work.

But change is glacial and in many cases, post covid and with inflation, massive corners are being cut.

We've recently pulled out of 2 projects post award after hearing the client's actual intentions for the project

If I had it all again I'd never have chosen this career. My pay is fine, but only fine, and I'm 20 years at it, chartered for 10. A computer programmer was in my car last month, he has a PHD, but 10 years max industry experience, 50% more salary, 50% less stress.

enricoh

Only done a year or so as a civils after college. Didn't inspire me- constant bollickings, crazy amount of work thrown at me, serious hours n more stress! Brickies on 3 times my wages n a couple of pints at lunchtime! Everyone trying to hang the next lad n cover their arse.

A few years later the tiger calved n jobs cut n wages cut. I think I'd want 150k a year to go back!

arsebiscuits82

Just reading the thread here now, I'm 15 years out of college and have worked in private sector, then public and back to private. I started on €22k and now around the €70k mark.

I've had my fill of the site work, now that I have kids I can't continue to only see them in the evening for an hour or so before they go to bed. I'm up every morning before 6 and out the door for 6.15. Usually don't get home until 6.30 at the earliest. Have a shower and the dinner and it's at least 7 before I can spend time with them and another hour at least before I can sit down and relax before going to bed at 10.30.

The stress of the job, and fear of making mistakes takes it's toll after a while. I've come into to work at 5am been here until near midnight on many occasions. It is no life.

If you are young and single reading this, do the contracting for the experience and build up a bit of money, then go do something else. It's a killer in the long run.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121098051#Comment_121098051

Well actually that was what appealed.

I hated the mess, the filth the stupidity of having to play along with "toolbox talks" and wearing gear that in my instrumentation/ control/ electromotive job often put me at greater risk, but the freedom to get stuck into the job was great. The high when a real difficult problem was sorted was unreal.

I never had a family, just the job. I am recently retired, but I would not have changed my approach one Iota.

I was salaried and I lived reasonably comfortably as I do now on a pretty meager UK state pension topped up with a few odd bits of private pensions. I don't even know if the amount brings me up to a full Irish state pension.

After maybe tightening the belt too severely and even downgrating the motor to a 1000 cc none turbo, I find life very comfortable and don't regret for one second the fact that I never left a job or changed jobs because of money.

Few people I worked with on civils sites worked from home anyway, being away from the family during the week was the norm.

SteadyNed

Ah lads. The industry is nothing short of misery.

It's literally ruining lives.

Bsharp

There's tonnes of resident engineering /Employers Rep jobs available. May be a step back from the full on construction side of things in terms of stress and sitebased hours, based on what you've described.

arsebiscuits82

Not saying I didn’t enjoy it at the start, I worked away for 5 years and had some of the best craic I’ve ever had and gained fantastic experience, but just getting older and don’t want to turn around in ten years wondering who my kids are.

The employer side of things doesn’t appeal to me to be honest. I wouldn’t have the temperament for all the politics that goes on.

looking into a couple of things at the minute still in the civils sphere just not as intensive. Hoping to make a change in around a years time. Looking at some evening classes and also have a bit of an idea I’d like to explore in the area of machine control.

Apothic_Red

I'm just after eyeballing the 2023 Salary Report.

This has seriously depressed me, I'm 26 years with a family owned manufacturing company, according to this I should be on 90k min yet I'm only in the high 60's. Shows what you get for loyalty. I'll be dropping this on a few laps Monday morning. I thought I was about average, time to change my Linkedin profile to open to offers.

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500351#Comment_121500351

Talk to a few recruiters also, they'll be able to give you an indication as to how competitive your salary is but you have to be prepared to move in order to negotiate a big pay rise

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500351#Comment_121500351

Yeah I'd say the guide isn't far off. Suppose it depends on your role in the company too. Few extra quid for dublin over countryside.

Apothic_Red

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121502931#Comment_121502931

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516179#Comment_121516179

Brought it to the attention of the CEO.

He said it was a piece of semi-state propaganda, a document by an engineering body to inflate salaries for it's members. He did however concede to a rise in the new year, should take me into the 70's at least.

Might reach out to a few recruiters as @Alkers advised above. Would anyone recommend a reputable group ?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500351#Comment_121500351

doesnt really matter what you do for a living, in most cases if you are in the same company (especially a family owned one) for a long period you will be underpaid. People wont ever pay more than they have to, you need to go out and get it.

Schorpio

He said it was a piece of semi-state propaganda

In other news, man who has a vested interest in calling the sky red, says the sky is red.

FWIW, my salary aligns with the salary survey, and I have used it as an indicator to get back out into the market. When you do, you see it's fairly accurate (generally).

If anything, my primary gripe with EI is that they haven't been driving a conversation about pay in engineering for the past few years (when pay was particularly dire post-recession by comparison to other professional industries). Lack of engineers and a healthy economy is somewhat helping to rectify the situation, but EI are not to be congratulated for it imo.

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517970#Comment_121517970

100%

They harp on about careers in STEM while ignoring the elephant in the room. The pay doesn't compare with other careers but has just as much early career hardship.

The EI survey is pretty reflective of where we are paywise, although some developers/contractors are having to shell out more than the survey results to get people to work big hours in Dublin.

I'm on consultancy/client side. Our pay would align but with bonus and other perks dependent on role

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517689#Comment_121517689

I disagree With your CEO. I work for a large consultancy as a lead engineer. I’m chartered with 14 years experience and my basic salary compares favorably with the EI survey. Colleagues and friends in other constituencies I have talked to said the same.

Apothic_Red

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121530131#Comment_121530131

After being long fingered for pay review for over 3 months I got the hump Wed night & declared myself "Looking for Work" on Linkedin as well as tapping up a few recruitment consultants.

Word got back rapidly & I received a welcome party this morning of the CEO & one of the directors.

Got most of what I wanted pay wise, earlier Friday finish & a commitment in writing to continue working reduced hours pro-rata post 65. Amazing how fast things can move once you pull the trigger.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926115#Comment_121926115

That's great to news. I was sent the EI 2024 salary survey yesterday, here is an extract: