The triumph of the National Front in France another feather in Putin's cap?

josephryan1989

The triumph of the authoritarian nationalist and populist National Front at local elections in France means that the National Front is well on its way to becoming the leading party of France and Marine Le Pen looks destined to eventually become the first female head of the French Republic.
Le Pen supports Putin's policy in Ukraine and has descrived Putin in gushing terms as the defender of the Christian heritage of European civilisation.
Both France and Russia opposed the Iraq War in 2003 - Jean Marie Le Pen considered Saddam a friend - and both France and Russia have fought their own wars and proxy wars against Islamic extremists.

In the last decade of the Soviet Union, the Russians fought the Mujahideen in Afghanistan and again fought Islamists in Chechnya while there have been numerous bloody attacks on Russian civilians that have shocked the world.

This has a parallel since France was the ally of the Algerian government during its long brutal fight with Islamic insurgents and the Paris attacks are only the latest in a series of jihadists attacks on French soil going back many years. Before the beginning of French air attacks on Syria many will have forgotten France intervened in Mali to shore up the government there and defeat an attempt by jihadis to conquer a vast region of the Sahara.

Le Pen is hostile to American, Anglo and German hegemony in Europe and looks to a Franco-Russian alliance. It is obviously in Putin's interests that the National Front triumphs in France as he will gain an ally and could bring the tottering NATO alliance crashing down.

Manach

It could also be a delayed revenge of Pied Noirs? In that these were ex-French settlers who left the former areas of the former French Empire. Quite a lot were radicalised by this and formed a bed rock of support for the National Front (as per my reading of Hussey's "French Intifada"). Given the divided nature of the country (even deGaulle spoke of this before the migrations both Pieds and others) then this will prove interesting to see if the French republic is moving into the same unstable phases as the prior republics underwent.

BoJack Horseman

While the FN are awash with Kremlin cash (as are many of Europe's right wing parties), they don't have much chance of winning the Elysee palace any time soon.

Now if a Le Pen, or any or her successors were to win the presidency or, sure, there could be a chance they obey their masters voice.... but that more depends on the attitudes of the public.

I imagine the EU & NATO are secure for the foreseeable future.

Inquitus

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

While the FN are awash with Kremlin cash (as are many of Europe's right wing parties), they don't have much chance of winning the Elysee palace any time soon.

Now if a Le Pen, or any or her successors were to win the presidency or, sure, there could be a chance they obey their masters voice.... but that more depends on the attitudes of the public.

I imagine the EU & NATO are secure for the foreseeable future.

BoJack is 100% correct, Le Pen has no chance of winning the presidency in France.

Sadly this sort of result plays into ISIS hands their biggest triumph is stoking the far right vote in Europe which will only ever increase racism, racial tensions and the ISIS recruiting pool. If we are too ignorant to see this as French, or Europeans, then more fool us.

KingBrian2

Le Pen's party are not electable. They are dogged by scandal and a leadership crisis.

BoJack Horseman

Inquitus wrote: »

Sadly this sort of result plays into ISIS hands their biggest triumph is stoking the far right vote in Europe which will only ever increase racism, racial tensions and the ISIS recruiting pool. If we are too ignorant to see this as French, or Europeans, then more fool us.

The relative rise of some right wing parties is not in itself attributable to ISIS.

The way I see it, the right can only become popular if the centre has failed in its duty.

There are a lot of people who are rightly concerned at the explosion in migration from outside Europe & within Europe, east to west.

The failure of the more mainstream centrist governments to display simple common sense is what alienates a lot of what should be willing voters.

also...voting for a right wing party is not in any way racist, nor can it increase racism.

Inquitus

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

also...voting for a right wing party is not in any way racist, nor can it increase racism.

I should have said far right, my bad, and in the case of the FN they are both far right and racist.

BoJack Horseman

Inquitus wrote: »

I should have said far right, my bad, and in the case of the FN they are both far right and racist.

well, yes.... probably a little.

KingBrian2

Are the far right really far right in France I mean they have a women as their leader. Didn't the old right believe women should be in the kitchen. Le Pen is a rallying voice for a lot of protest voters in France that are against the establishment. I'd say a fair few of them are plain and simple conservatives and politically incorrect leftists.

Nodin

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The triumph of the authoritarian nationalist and populist National Front at local elections in France means that the National Front is well on its way to becoming the leading party of France and Marine Le Pen looks destined to eventually become the first female head of the French Republic............

It's a win but in local elections with a turnout of 51%. Given that, it might be a bit soon to say its going to become the main party.

Shurimgreat

There is no doubt the rise in migration to Europe as a result of the Syrian Civil war is a win for Russia and they must be enjoying the discomfort experienced by mainstream Europe parties. The Far Right parties such as UKIP, FN are also very anti Europe and would like the EU to break up, something which is also in Russia's interests.

A disunited Europe tearing itself apart is exactly what Putin and Russia wants. However he has also made friends with far left parties like Syriza in Greece and one or two more.

Russia will never have to worry about such concerns as mass migration from Syria etc. It doesn't allows any in, a simple solution for them. You can afford to make decisions like that when you aren't a democracy and accountable to no-one, and the opposition or human rights groups don't get a look in on national media.

At the same time, mass migration from Syria to Europe was entirely predictable from day one as long as Syrian war was allowed to fester. At this stage I am sure some EU leaders are regretting the endless rounds of extravagant dinners etc under the guise of pretending to solve the Syrian conflict. They are now reaping the results of that. You cannot ignore something like Syria as some EU leaders did and not expect its problems to come to your door.

gobsh!te

I'm loving what is happening in Europe at the moment.

The PC brigade (some of whom post here) are becoming irrelevant.

People seem to have had enough of the bull**** and the phony media that only shows one side and always labels parties like FN and Wilders in Holland as far right.

Hopefully there is still enough time to save Europe from social and economic collapse...The results in the next 3 or 4 years in elections will be very exciting for those of us who miss common sense.

gandalf

Looks like the Socialists in France are going to withdraw candidates who came third in the second round of voting to try to ensure the FN get the least amount of seats possible.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/socialists-pull-out-in-bid-to-halt-historic-victory-for-front-national-34268042.html

Dohnjoe

gobsh!te wrote: »

People seem to have had enough of the bull**** and the phony media that only shows one side and always labels parties like FN and Wilders in Holland as far right.

Hopefully there is still enough time to save Europe from social and economic collapse...The results in the next 3 or 4 years in elections will be very exciting for those of us who miss common sense.

There's no common sense, that's the point, it's just populism. Blaming foreigners for complex domestic problems. Pandering easy solutions.

Whether it's far left or far right, it's the same scapegoats and the same inability to deal with real problems - but hey always easy to capitalise on populism and steal votes, hell they might even get to power just like Syriza did and accomplish nothing

gallag

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's no common sense, that's the point, it's just populism. Blaming foreigners for complex domestic problems. Pandering easy solutions.

Whether it's far left or far right, it's the same scapegoats and the same inability to deal with real problems - but hey always easy to capitalise on populism and steal votes, hell they might even get to power just like Syriza did and accomplish nothing

Nice soundbite there, but what your ignoring is the immagrants are actually a big part of the problem in France, the ghettos, overrepresented in unemployment and Crime and terrorist attacks by 2nd generation immigrants who refuse to integrate along with recent migrants who abuse the refugee crisis, mabey people are voting for FN because they live there and see the problems and there is only one party addressing the issue.

gallag

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like the Socialists in France are going to withdraw candidates who came third in the second round of voting to try to ensure the FN get the least amount of seats possible.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/socialists-pull-out-in-bid-to-halt-historic-victory-for-front-national-34268042.html

If you can't win the argument go for the block vote!

No matter what at least the left are dead in another European country!

gandalf

gallag wrote: »

If you can't win the argument go for the block vote!

No matter what at least the left are dead in another European country!

The left were dead for the next election anyway. Hollande is hated by a lot of the French and his presidency is seen by the majority as an absolute disaster.

At least the socialists realise that the Republicans (formally the UMP) are a much better option for France that the poisoned Russian funded and influenced FN.

ambro25

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

While the FN are awash with Kremlin cash (as are many of Europe's right wing parties), they don't have much chance of winning the Elysee palace any time soon.

Now if a Le Pen, or any or her successors were to win the presidency or, sure, there could be a chance they obey their masters voice.... but that more depends on the attitudes of the public.

I imagine the EU & NATO are secure for the foreseeable future.

Wish I had as good a crystal ball as yours; or failing that, your optimism

I may get closer to it come Monday morning after the 2nd round. The FN is still going to get 3 régions all the same: Nord Pas de Calais (Marine LePen), PACA (her niece), and Alsace-Lorraine-Champagne-Ardennes (Phillipot -the FN No.2- since Masseret (Socialist) is not withdrawing his list).

And give Marine LePen a win-win* 17 months to start proving the FN's mettle.

* If it gets better in these regions, however slightly, it will all be thanks to her party's governance
* If it gets worse, it will be because immigrants (and "culturally-incompatible" nationals...and we all know who that is) are rejecting the FN's nationalistic policies and values - exactly what got them 30% of the national vote yesterday.

Anecdotal evidence from the few town councils under their governance since the last Municipales shows that they're doing no worse a job as the previous mainstream incumbents, however now with a sprinkle of nationalist populism for good measure (pig/charcuterie festivals, ban on halal food option in canteens, etc.) that resonates well with their electorate.

Alexis Sanchez

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's no common sense, that's the point, it's just populism. Blaming foreigners for complex domestic problems. Pandering easy solutions.

Whether it's far left or far right, it's the same scapegoats and the same inability to deal with real problems - but hey always easy to capitalise on populism and steal votes, hell they might even get to power just like Syriza did and accomplish nothing

Pure nonsense. So it has nothing to do with Charlie Hebdo massacres or the fact that Marseilles is the most dangerous city in Europe? The rise of the these immigration control (none of them are far-right) parties, like UKIP, FN, PVV (Netherlands) and Sweden Democrats, is mainly to do with multiculturalism being a catastrophic failure in Europe.

You don't realise this yet because Ireland doesn't have any ghettos, yet, but we're certainly working on it. If you lived near one, you'd understand. After all, look at what happened to one of the most liberal countries in the world in their last GM:



The municipalities in yellow are where the Sweden Democrats are strongest, but their also the municipalities with the highest number of foreign born.

Shurimgreat

gobsh!te wrote: »

I'm loving what is happening in Europe at the moment.

The PC brigade (some of whom post here) are becoming irrelevant.

People seem to have had enough of the bull**** and the phony media that only shows one side and always labels parties like FN and Wilders in Holland as far right.

Hopefully there is still enough time to save Europe from social and economic collapse...The results in the next 3 or 4 years in elections will be very exciting for those of us who miss common sense.

Good point. I think what you describe as the PC Brigade is the "cozy consensus" politics of the centre ground. Still, centrists are reasonably responsible in their language. However most people would agree that opening our doors to emigrants from within and without Europe hasn't really brought peace or prosperity to Europe or tolerance or diversity. Its virtually impossible to integrate some nationalities and communities who refuse point blank to integrate or embrace western European values.

glued

gandalf wrote: »

The left were dead for the next election anyway. Hollande is hated by a lot of the French and his presidency is seen by the majority as an absolute disaster.

At least the socialists realise that the Republicans (formally the UMP) are a much better option for France that the poisoned Russian funded and influenced FN.

Are you really surprised by Russia? It's obviously in their best interests to undermine the EU in anyway possible. The French people are sick of the unrealistic left brigade in France. Hollande has been a diaster and going back to Sarkozy isn't an option for a lot of people. It's not really surprising that the National Front are polling well.

XR3i

Je déteste les gens

Icepick

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Good point. I think what you describe as the PC Brigade is the "cozy consensus" politics of the centre ground. Still, centrists are reasonably responsible in their language. However most people would agree that opening our doors to emigrants from within and without Europe hasn't really brought peace or prosperity to Europe or tolerance or diversity. Its virtually impossible to integrate some nationalities and communities who refuse point blank to integrate or embrace western European values.

Did your one run away with a polish lad or something? get a grip

Shurimgreat

Icepick wrote: »

Did your one run away with a polish lad or something? get a grip

No but I am just pointing out that open borders brings with it many many problems which very few centrist politicians are willing to confront for fear of being labelled racist. Groups like FN and Donald Trump in the US have no such qualms. Trump or Le Pen could care less about being labelled racist. Trump of course is an idiot and an extreme example.

The only time centrist parties talk about the problems associated with open borders is when they are facing someone like UKIP or FN in elections.

As for problems associated with open borders, in Europe we are talking about petty crime such as gangs of Eastern European pick pockets, people trafficking, Social welfare tourism, hard line religious views, gun smuggling, dangerous criminals leaving jurisdictions and in occasional cases terrorism. The more you open your borders the more problems you invite.

Nodin

Alexis Sanchez wrote: »

Pure nonsense. So it has nothing to do with Charlie Hebdo massacres or the fact that Marseilles is the most dangerous city in Europe? The rise of the these immigration control (none of them are far-right) parties, like UKIP, FN, PVV (Netherlands) and Sweden Democrats, is mainly to do with multiculturalism being a catastrophic failure in Europe.
...............

The French have not ever and do not practice "multiculturalism". The majority of French muslims are French born. The rise of fear mongers is an unfortunate example of the kind of thing we had hope consigned to the past, rather than anything concrete.

shurimgreat wrote:

However most people would agree that opening our doors to emigrants from within and without Europe hasn't really brought peace or prosperity to Europe or tolerance or diversity

I'm unaware of a war raging with our large polish population. You might expand on what you mean, with specifics.

Shurimgreat wrote:

Its virtually impossible to integrate some nationalities and communities who
refuse point blank to integrate or embrace western European values.

Would you care to name specific examples? It's hard to argue generalities.

ancapailldorcha

XR3i wrote: »

Je déteste les gens

This is a forum for serious discussion. Please read the charter before posting again.

ambro25

Nodin wrote: »

The French have not ever and do not practice "multiculturalism".

Descartes, Rousseau, Voltaire, La Declaration Universelle des Droits de l'Homme, Article 1 "Tous les hommes naissent libres et egaux en droit" <etc.> ring any bells? Arguably it goes back a fair bit :pac:

Do not confuse laicism for monoculturalism. It's just boundaries for multiculturalism.

Nodin

ambro25 wrote: »

Descartes, Rousseau, Voltaire, La Declaration Universelle des Droits de l'Homme, Article 1 "Tous les hommes naissent libres et egaux en droit" <etc.> ring any bells? Arguably it goes back a fair bit :pac:

.

Not seeing the multicultural imperative in that quote, tbh.

gobsh!te

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's no common sense, that's the point, it's just populism. Blaming foreigners for complex domestic problems. Pandering easy solutions.

Whether it's far left or far right, it's the same scapegoats and the same inability to deal with real problems - but hey always easy to capitalise on populism and steal votes, hell they might even get to power just like Syriza did and accomplish nothing

Why do you think Poland and Hungary don't see Muslim attacks on their own soil?

Nodin

gobsh!te wrote: »

Why do you think Poland and Hungary don't see Muslim attacks on their own soil?

I've no idea. Perhaps you might explain.

Icepick

Shurimgreat wrote: »

As for problems associated with open borders, in Europe we are talking about petty crime such as gangs of Eastern European pick pockets, people trafficking, Social welfare tourism, hard line religious views, gun smuggling, dangerous criminals leaving jurisdictions and in occasional cases terrorism. The more you open your borders the more problems you invite.

Yes, all the Irish and British gangsters living in Spain. Why don't their home countries do something about that?

The EU with its open market and borders is the best external thing that happened to Ireland since independence.

Regarding people coming from outside the EU, it's up to us to take responsibility and not have an immigration and justice system that is not fit for purpose.

ambro25

Nodin wrote: »

Not seeing the multicultural imperative in that quote, tbh.

Not surprised you don't, tbh.

gobsh!te

@Nodin

I can't tell if you genuinely don't know or if this is a joke...honestly....you are left wing, right?

Anyway, how about answering a straight answer with a straight question someone else.

Why do you think Poland and Hungary don't see Muslim attacks on their own soil?

RDM_83 again

A large rise in the hard right was inevitable across Europe due to the failures of the centerists.

I'm not particularly happy that its occurring (and would be very unhappy if they achieve power since they have potential to permanently break the EU)
But I am happy they are shattering the cosy liberal consensus, there's more than 10% unemployment in the EU, we have open borders within the union there simply isn't the adequately paying jobs to import more people (and granting refugee status rather than hard borders and external to EU camps is defacto importing).
There is a hefty proportion on the left that seem to have disdain their native working classes citizens (its often evident on boards), why shouldn't they reject their traditional parties until they actually listen to them.

K-9

Mod:

Moved to the new International Politics forum.

johnnyskeleton

gobsh!te wrote: »

@Nodin

I can't tell if you genuinely don't know or if this is a joke...honestly....you are left wing, right?

Anyway, how about answering a straight answer with a straight question someone else.

Why do you think Poland and Hungary don't see Muslim attacks on their own soil?

Mod note:

Although this is technically a new forum, your history from the Politics forum carries on. And your first task is to personally abuse another poster. You have now been banned from International Politics and I will consider whether a ban for Politics (General) is justified.

Nodin

ambro25 wrote: »

Not surprised you don't, tbh.

Neither am I - "Tous les hommes naissent libres et egaux en droit"/"all men are born free and equal in law". I see no imperative to multiculturalism in that, unless theres some nuance in the French I'm missing.

ambro25

Nodin wrote: »

Neither am I - "Tous les hommes naissent libres et egaux en droit"/"all men are born free and equal in law". I see no imperative to multiculturalism in that, unless theres some nuance in the French I'm missing

There is, although it's not specifically French at all: the fact that the article refers to all people indiscriminantly of race, creed, religion, upbringing, wealth <etc>.

Put in its temporal context.

Then, if you can be bothered, look at the ensuing constitutional history of France. It was the first country to legislate multiculturalism into its core Statute over 300 years ago. It has stayed there ever since.

After that, if by "imperative" you imply that legislation should somehow force a recognition of distinct cultures within what is meant to be, and stay, a homogeneous group, then that is precisely why you are not getting it, and why I am not surprised that you are not getting it: such legislation would contravene the very essence of the premise that "all men are born free and equal in law", by creating exceptions that become more free and equal than others.

Nodin

ambro25 wrote: »

There is, although it's not specifically French at all: the fact that the article refers (................)and equal than others.

Evidently we're flying by each other here, as I haven't a notion what you are trying to say, either in that post or the original. You might spell it out in plain English for me.

IrishTrajan

As much as I dislike the Russians, they are not in themselves an existential threat to the Western system. The Russians are rational, the Russians are pragmatic, the Russians understand that without us, their country will quite likely implode from economic strain and a lack of capital/technology inflows. Fundamentalist Islam, however, has no such qualities. It is irrational, implacable, and an existential threat.

The FN, should they ever come into power, will have a clear mandate: to reverse mass migration. This does not necessarily extend to them shifting towards Moscow, as they will be treading on ice and trying to maintain the appearance of moderation (I think). If the FN shift too far towards Moscow, Sarcozy's Republicans will likely gain ground against them (wasn't it Sarcozy who brought France back into NATO's unified command structure?).

So, FN can reverse migration and maybe put a little political pressure to ease up tension on Moscow - but this does not necessarily mean that they will suddenly shift from Washington (or Brussel's) to Moscow's court.

ambro25

Nodin wrote: »

Evidently we're flying by each other here, as I haven't a notion what you are trying to say, either in that post or the original. You might spell it out in plain English for me.

My posts are written in perfectly clear English, save for those portions in French of course.

As previously posted, I am not surprised at your lack of comprehension. Wilful or otherwise.

IrishTrajan

Nodin wrote: »

Neither am I - "Tous les hommes naissent libres et egaux en droit"/"all men are born free and equal in law". I see no imperative to multiculturalism in that, unless theres some nuance in the French I'm missing.

But, for some reason, you conveniently miss the "in law" part of that. Illegal migration shouldn't be stood for.

oscarBravo

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Illegal migration shouldn't be stood for.

Who said otherwise?

K-9

ambro25 wrote: »

My posts are written in perfectly clear English, save for those portions in French of course.

As previously posted, I am not surprised at your lack of comprehension. Wilful or otherwise.

Mod:

On an advisory note, please keep it civil, there's no need for the above. If somebody asks for clarification, it's polite and respectful to provide it.

If you really don't want to reply to somebody, it's best to just not reply or use the ignore function provided by the site in the User CP.

Nodin

IrishTrajan wrote: »

But, for some reason, you conveniently miss the "in law" part of that. Illegal migration shouldn't be stood for.

I do indeed see that, but what its supposed to do with "multicultarlism" (or the lack thereof) is the question being debated.

ambro25 wrote:

My posts are written in perfectly clear English, save for those portions in
French of course.

As previously posted, I am not surprised at your lack of comprehension. Wilful or otherwise.

Again, I'm not seeing what that quote has to do with multiculturalism, one way or the other.

ambro25

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

On an advisory note, please keep it civil, there's no need for the above. If somebody asks for clarification, it's polite and respectful to provide it.

If you really don't want to reply to somebody, it's best to just not reply or use the ignore function provided by the site in the User CP.

I believe my post was perfectly civil, K9, but I will of course welcome an indication of what you consider uncivil or belligerent about it, for my personal edification. Public on here or via PM, I'm not precious about it.

As to the clarification sought, it was provided in post #38. I am not going to waste time belabouring a simple point. If it happens to be wasted on certain readers or contributors, it's hardly my concern. At the risk of pointing the obvious, this is a discussion forum, not a classroom.

Amicably,
/ambro25

ancapailldorcha

ambro25 wrote: »

I believe my post was perfectly civil, K9, but I will of course welcome an indication of what you consider uncivil or belligerent about it, for my personal edification. Public on here or via PM, I'm not precious about it.

As to the clarification sought, it was provided in post #38. I am not going to waste time belabouring a simple point. If it happens to be wasted on certain readers or contributors, it's hardly my concern. At the risk of pointing the obvious, this is a discussion forum, not a classroom.

Amicably,
/ambro25

Hi ambro25,

We'd prefer it if you wouldn't discuss mod action on thread. Instead, please PM the mod in question or post in the "A discussion on the rules" thread in the main form.

Eugene Norman

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's no common sense, that's the point, it's just populism. Blaming foreigners for complex domestic problems. Pandering easy solutions.

Whether it's far left or far right, it's the same scapegoats and the same inability to deal with real problems - but hey always easy to capitalise on populism and steal votes, hell they might even get to power just like Syriza did and accomplish nothing

The centre believes in a globalisation that immiserates the middle classes, the transfer of all manufacturing to China and India, the financialisation of the economy, printing of money to increase asset and property prices, invading and overthrowing secular dictatorships in the Middle East followed by the invitation to (the radicalised) all and sundry from the areas invaded, and open borders fanaticism.

Whats surprising is that it took so long to produce any response.

Nodin

"France's far-right National Front (FN) has been beaten into third place in the second round of regional elections, exit polls indicate.
Early results suggest the party failed to win a single region, despite leading in six of 13 regions in the first round of votes a week ago.
The polls suggest Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right Republican party is in the lead, ahead of the ruling Socialists."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35088276

It would seem the "triumph" is yet to arrive.

masti123

Nodin wrote: »

"France's far-right National Front (FN) has been beaten into third place in the second round of regional elections, exit polls indicate.
Early results suggest the party failed to win a single region, despite leading in six of 13 regions in the first round of votes a week ago.
The polls suggest Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right Republican party is in the lead, ahead of the ruling Socialists."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35088276

It would seem the "triumph" is yet to arrive.

I'm not an FN supporter, far from it but I believe this collusion is gonna backfire in the middle run
They were the single most voted party with a 27,73% of votes. That is a huge base, which has been formed partially due to the discomfort with the traditional parties.
If they have nothing better to offer than a "f*ck you", a ignore, and more of the same, towards what constitutes more than a quarter of the voters, I foresee a dark future

Nodin

masti123 wrote: »

I'm not an FN supporter, far from it but I believe this collusion is gonna backfire in the middle run
They were the single most voted party with a 27,73% of votes. That is a huge base, which has been formed partially due to the discomfort with the traditional parties.
If they have nothing better to offer than a "f*ck you", a ignore, and more of the same, towards what constitutes more than a quarter of the voters, I foresee a dark future

If large numbers of the population want to, for instance, embark on a deranged drunken rampage every weekend while firing guns at random passersby, it's not really doing any good to pander to them.