Number26 launching free mobile-first bank account in Ireland (Revolut alternative)

Doylers

dohouch wrote: »

So my card has been activated for all of 2 weeks; looks like it's going to cost me €30. :eek: So if I clear my account, looks as as if there could still be a debt of €30 that somebody is going to look for. All very messy.

Tell me this, who comes looking for the €30? How is it recovered ?

Delta2113

I would encourage everybody to immediately clear funds from number26. That's what I have just done -in fact I also cleared out Revolut.

I would be happy to go to court if number26 go after me for the €30 -it's simply wrong.

Number26 need to get hold off some good lawyers and get this sorted asap.

Allyall

I'm sure N26 would have to send us an email or push notification, or something to that affect before they introduce the charges. I haven't received either yet.

Everyone signed up for this, as it beats the cr*p out of the Irish banks. They may even be the force pushing these charges, but N26 may fight it.
They're not going to let (I'm guessing) 100's of customers walk because of an annual fee. Would they?

I'm still guessing, but surely they couldn't just charge us €30 each after changing the Credit Card to a Debit Card?
Would there not legally have to be an opt out for customers?

Yggr of Asgard

Allyall wrote: »

Can somebody link to the charges?
I'm sure N26 would have to send us an email or push notification, or something to that affect before they introduce the charges. I haven't received either yet.

Everyone signed up for this, as it beats the cr*p out of the Irish banks. They may even be the force pushing these charges, but N26 may fight it.
They're not going to let (I'm guessing) 100's of customers walk because of an annual fee. Would they?

I'm still guessing, but surely they couldn't just charge us €30 each after changing the Credit Card to a Debit Card?
Would there not legally have to be an opt out for customers?

They recently send out a notification about new Terms & Conditions but there is no text in the T&C about the charge, it's only visible in the price list:

Please note if you are Irish resident: Government Stamp Duty of €30 p.a. applies

see https://number26.eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/NNUMBER26-Pricing-List.pdf

They however also have updated their support pages:

Please note that customers residing in Ireland are liable for a stamp duty fee of 30 € per year for the MasterCard, charged by the Irish Revenue Service. This fee will be collected once a year.

see https://number26.eu/support/really-costs/

However they clearly classify the card as debit

What kind of card is my NUMBER26 MasterCard?
Your NUMBER26 MasterCard is a debit card that has the same acceptance as a common MasterCard. You can use it free of charge worldwide. Additionally, your NUMBER26 MasterCard offers you the ability to pay online. As opposed to ordinary credit cards, transactions are shown in real-time, meaning that your NUMBER26 account is always debited instantly.

see https://number26.eu/support/kind-card-number26-mastercard/

soirish

Allyall wrote: »

Can somebody link to the charges?

Here it is.

From all the countries they operate in Ireland is the only one mentioned on the stamp duty.

Allyall

So it is possible that it may have been an oversight? It wasn't sent directly to anyone, and it may have been a document that they had already written, and haven't ammended yet (Since the change to Debit card)?

I don't think panicking and telling everyone to remove their money and close their account is helping much.
As Yggr of Asgard said, you may not be able to open another account with them.

I think I'll calmly wait.

bertie4evr

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

They recently send out a notification about new Terms & Conditions but there is no text in the T&C about the charge, it's only visible in the price list:



see https://number26.eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/NNUMBER26-Pricing-List.pdf

They however also have updated their support pages:


see https://number26.eu/support/really-costs/

However they clearly classify the card as debit



see https://number26.eu/support/kind-card-number26-mastercard/

I sent all this off in an email to them last night looking for some clarification, looking forward to the reply in at least 3-5 working days :rolleyes:

Yggr of Asgard

Allyall wrote: »

So it is possible that it may have been an oversight? It wasn't sent directly to anyone, and it may have been a documen that they had already written, and haven't ammended yet (Since the change to Debit card)?

I don't think panicking and telling everyone to remove their money and close their account is helping much.
As Yggr of Asgard said, you may not be able to open another account with them.

I think I'll calmly wait.

No it's confirmed by number26 on twitter that the change to the AGB (Terms & Conditions) that go into effect on the 21 of March are introducing the Stamp Duty. (the tweet is unfortunately only in German).

This is not an oversight, this is a new charge they have introduced.

Delta2113

"It is clearly a mistake to be applying the credit card stamp duty to a debit card. Hopefully, this is sorted sooner rather than later." - CiaranT -askaboutmoney.com

I hope he is correct. Even if this decision to charge the €30 is reversed it has damaged the number26 brand in my opinion.

It's not like the €30 stamp duty is new or anything. I hope a newspaper journalist actually investigates this. Did the Irish banks lean on Noonan? -etc. Do number26 know what they are doing trying to charge people? Do revenue actually think it's really an actual credit card?

Allyall

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

No it's confirmed by number26 on twitter that the change to the AGB (Terms & Conditions) that go into effect on the 21 of March are introducing the Stamp Duty. (the tweet is unfortunately only in German).

This is not an oversight, this is a new charge they have introduced.

Thanks.

21st of March is a fairly long time away. I'm just opening the PDF now, but I think I'll still wait and see what happens.
This isn't their charge, and it also wasn't them that changed it from a CC to a DC, was it?

Allyall

I realise that this isn't their charge, (I posted that above), but:

• absolutely free MasterCard (no annual fee, no hidden costs!)
• all cash withdrawals are free of charge in Germany and abroad
• super-useful banking-app (easy to use and very functional)

This has to be either a mistake, or we should be given the option to cancel the card.

NeverWaining

Surely N26 know this will put a serious dent into their Irish business. They have probably cursed this ridiculous credit card fee just as much as us but now it's up to them to collect our €30s for the Irish government. I wonder if N26 were aware of this all along or if it is something that they hadn't expected.

They're concentrating on opening in the UK soon and there can't be too many Irish users really. Perhaps they'll just write us and our silly credit card stamp duty off?

It would be nice to get some clarification on why our debit cards are being labelled credit cards.

Quackster

Well if it's now actually a debit card, there's no way at all the €30 credit card stamp duty could be applied to it.

If it's still a credit card and Revenue are insistent that the €30 stamp duty must be applied, then I wonder could Number26 be talked into issuing us with Maestro cards instead of the MasterCards.

Delta2113

If this really is going to stick then Number26 should come out clearly and indicate it's opinion on the charge.

If I was them I would immediately withdraw from the Irish market but not before I tell the world about exactly what Irish Revenue said etc.

I cant help thinking this smells of BOI,AIB etc. applying pressure.

Will the E.U. come to our aid? Don't hold your breath.

Nollog

Ask revenue yourselves, lcdfslevies@revenue.ie
I just sent them an email asking for clarification myself.

NeverWaining

Any chance that this is considered a 'charge card'? These also have a €30 annual stamp duty.

Julabo

On average how long are people waiting for money transferred into the account?

Only got my card today so did first transfer of cash into account. Did it around 13.00, still waiting

Yggr of Asgard

Julabo wrote: »

On average how long are people waiting for money transferred into the account?

Only got my card today so did first transfer of cash into account. Did it around 13.00, still waiting

if your bank does SEPA correctly, they will process this Monday and you should have it latest Tuesday (most likely it will be there Tuesday morning).

If you are with Ulster Bank than according to reports here it will take a couple of extra days because they for some reason claim that SEPA is not applicable for standard payments and like to take up to 3 days.

bertie4evr

Julabo wrote: »

On average how long are people waiting for money transferred into the account?

Only got my card today so did first transfer of cash into account. Did it around 13.00, still waiting

The last one I did was at 12:52pm, got it the next morning at 11:30pm.

EDIT: With AIB

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Nollog

NeverWaining wrote: »

Any chance that this is considered a 'charge card'? These also have a €30 annual stamp duty.

There's no credit what so ever, so no.

They're probably just charging €30 because it's coded as a credit card.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Nollog

Fred Swanson wrote: »

The thing is it is not coded as a credit card. It is coded as a debit card.

Well then I'm just super-confused.

Maybe they just mis-communicated to revenue, or didn't want to do the 12c atm charge.

Allyall

I'm guessing this is what happened.

Number26 decides to launch in some Countries, Ireland being one.
Fill out the correct forms and paperwork (or whatever they need to do) and declare their card as a Credit Mastercard.

Irish Revenue takes x amount of time to get to Number26, and read through whatever N26 submitted, and start processing it as a Credit card.

In the meantime N26 Credit card has been downgraded to a Debit Card and N26 announce it officially on their website and wherever else.
Shortly after or around the same time, Revenue details arrive in N26 office with an Annual Credit Card Stamp Duty of €30 marked on their card.

N26 read it, probably think the charges are crazy, but hey, it's not their charge.
Publish the charge on their site.

Confusion starts.

inel

Allyall wrote: »

In the meantime N26 Credit card has been downgraded to a Debit Card and N26 announce it officially on their website and wherever else.

I don't think something like that was ever officially announced (or even happened). At least I haven't seen any proof of that.

In the FAQs section the card was always mentioned both as a 'credit' and 'debit' card. This is where the confusion comes from.

Was there any announcement that the card was 'downgraded' to a 'debit' one? Somewhere, twitter, facebook, official website? I would like to see it.

Yggr of Asgard

inel wrote: »

I don't think something like that was ever officially announced (or even happened). At least I haven't seen any proof of that.

In the FAQs section the card was always mentioned both as a 'credit' and 'debit' card. This is where the confusion comes from.

Was there any announcement that the card was 'downgraded' to a 'debit' one? Somewhere, twitter, facebook, official website? I would like to see it.

https://number26.eu/support/kind-card-number26-mastercard/

What kind of card is my NUMBER26 MasterCard?
Your NUMBER26 MasterCard is a debit card that has the same acceptance as a common MasterCard. You can use it free of charge worldwide. Additionally, your NUMBER26 MasterCard offers you the ability to pay online. As opposed to ordinary credit cards, transactions are shown in real-time, meaning that your NUMBER26 account is always debited instantly.

inel

Thanks Yggr of Asgard, but this is the FAQ section I refer to.
It doesn't announce any change in the status/type of card being issued.
I really have the impression that it was mentioned exactly like that, as a debit card, even back then in December.
Are you sure it was written differently before?

I admit that in the English version of the website there was a more frequent use of the term 'credit card' as a direct translation from the German website and was later removed maybe due to confusion created.

In the German version of the website it is still written as 'Kreditkarte' in the front page.

In any case I don't mean that the card works as a credit card and we should be charged 30 euro. On the contrary, it works as a debit card and I do believe that the confusion was created by miscommunication/mishandling of the case between the two parties (N26, Irish Revenue).
But I also believe that there is no change in the type of card being issued, since there is no official announcement stating that.

inel

Thanks Yggr of Asgard, but this is the FAQ section I refer to.
It doesn't announce any change in the status/type of card being issued.
I really have the impression that it was mentioned exactly like that, as a debit card, even back then in December.
Are you sure it was written differently before?

I admit that in the English version of the website there was a more frequent use of the term 'credit card' as a direct translation from the German website and was later removed maybe due to confusion created.

In the German version of the website it is still written as 'Kreditkarte' in the front page.

In any case I don't mean that the card works as a credit card and we should be charged 30 euro. On the contrary, it works as a debit card and I do believe that the confusion was created by miscommunication/mishandling of the case between the two parties (N26, Irish Revenue).
But I also believe that there is no change in the type of card being issued, since there is no official announcement stating that.

Yggr of Asgard

The confusion most likely comes from the way in Germany bank cards are named in local terms.

A debit card is in most cases the Girokarte (which also has a logo/acceptance as either a VPAY or Maestro) allowing broad acceptance by most shops. Charges are either deducted immediately or via direct debit (yes, swiping your card, signing the receipt creates a direct debit). This is what most Germans have in their wallet as it's nearly accepted everywhere while credit cards are not.

The term "Kreditkarte" or credit card is used as an umbrella for several products which have a Visa or MasterCard Logo (or Amex or Diners) but they actually are not all a credit card as we in Ireland would define them.

There are revolving cards (like our credit card), Charge with a limit (pay a monthly bill within days of receiving it), Daily Charge Card (debit card as long as you are paying additional funds to it, otherwise it takes the charge limit) and Debit (like Irish Debit cards directly from the account) and Prepaid (same as here).

All of these are named "credit card" because they have the Visa/MasterCard logo, in fact until quite recently debit cards did not even featured the "debit" mark that we are used to from out Irish Bank cards.

Most "debit Kreditkarte" don't look any different than "real" credit cards, only recently had Visa/MasterCard in Germany actually started using the "debit" on the cards (driven by virtual banks like Fidor or number26). And in fact even if they are debit cards they are not accepted as such, a merchant needs to accept credit cards to take them.

So what i think happened is that Number26 in an effort to be compliant with Irish Law went in with the German Definition of Credit Card (because it's using MasterCard network and is referred to as such in Germany) which caused Revenue to ask for 30€.

They should have gone in and explained that it's a debit card (by Irish definition) and only charge the 12 cents per ATM (or 2.5/5 € for last year).

Now the last part is speculation on my part and we have to see what they come back with next week once they get loads of mails.

The Ayatolla

I'll give it a week and see what happens.