There's no such thing as Santa Claus!!!

Shenshen

Azalea wrote: »

You know full well I don't mean people who don't have Santa in their culture. This thread is about people telling children Santa isn't real, in a society like Ireland where Santa is a massive part of Christmas.

Is it? It was started about an completely anonymous woman - she may be Irish, she may not. She may be Christian, she may be not.

I've made it quite clear in my own post that I come from a culture that does not have Santa clause, and was still told I was wrong to even consider not telling my not-yet-existing children about Santa.
As far as I can see, no poster here came out to say they would deliberately tell any children other than their own that Santa was not real, but even that doesn't seem to be good enough for the Santa Defense League. From what I can tell, the demand seems to be to make sure your children believe in Santa for as long as possible, or face being driven out of town.

Personally, I really, really don't understand the whole Santa thing. When I was a kid, my mom would occasionally mention that it's the Christkindl that brings the presents, but all presents under the tree were always well labelled so you could thank the person who gave them to you. And we were encouraged from a very early age to give presents to the people closest to us, as well. Christmas to me was always about giving first, being grateful second, and receiving presents third.
When I have children, I want them to grow up feeling the same way. Feeling the joy of giving a little bag of christmas biscuits they helped bake to granny, or their best artwork in a nice frame to dad. And I want them to appreciate the love and thought others have put into selecting the presents they receive themselves.

Please don't anybody take this the wrong way, but Santa - to me - takes a lot of that love and feeling away from christmas. There's no giving, just taking. There's no appreciation of a certain person having given you a certain gift for a certain reason. It's not someone you know and love, it's a complete stranger showing up once a year and dropping gifts.

c_man

Melany Orange Organ wrote: »

Anyone not giving their child the magic of Santa is a rotten and disgusting parent and even worse having their kids ruining it on others. Hope the person in question in the op is ran out of the area fairly sharpish.

I love the idea of people being ran out of town for being anti-Santa!

Alf Veedersane

Shenshen wrote: »

From what I can tell, the demand seems to be to make sure your children believe in Santa for as long as possible, or face being driven out of town.

I don't think that's the demand. Sure, the extremes capture the attention but they are extreme.

It seems that a lot of people have assumed that the issue is with telling children that Santa doesn't exist either churlishly or for some other self-righteous reason.

As opposed to a child finding out in the school yard because another kid has been told Santa doesn't exist.

I don't think anyone could genuinely have an issue with someone not propagating the idea of Santa when it's alien to them in the first place, as it is for you. I don't imagine you go around telling kids that Santa doesn't exist for the sake of it or that you shatter their childish illusions because it means nothing to you.

kunst nugget

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Christmas is about everyone. It isn't about a fictional character flying around giving out presents. Although I suppose that is how most children see it now days.

It was a lot different when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s. Parents had a lot more cop on back then. They bought what they could afford, not like today, the stories about parents turning to loan sharks to buy their kids what they think they should is very sad.

A sign of the times, I suppose. The real meaning of Christmas was lost a long time ago. It is so commercial now and about buying gifts. Keeps retailers happy though

I grew up in the 70s and 80s and Christmas was all about Santa for me and every other kid I knew. Sure, they tried to throw that stuff about Jesus being born was thrown into the mix but we didn't give two figs. If that's what my kids think that's what Christmas is about at the age they are, I'm not going to be wringing my hands in despair. What Christmas means to me has obviously expanded over the years as I've gotten older but for me there's no one real meaning of Christmas. The real meaning of Christmas is what you want to make it about yourself.

Nobody I know has used a loan shark to do their Christmas shopping and everyone I know keeps their kids on the straight and narrow in terms of what they'll get. Common sense didn't die in the 80s.

nozzferrahhtoo

hairyslug wrote: »

Well aren't you just a bundle of fun

Well.... yes actually. That is one of the reasons I do not have discipline or behavior problems with my children. I am very good at having fun with them, and very good at finding ways to ensure they are engaged and stimulated when I can not personally spend time with them.

So I have never needed blackmail, let alone blackmail through the use of fictional characters, to work on keeping them in line. Though while it is apparent you were joking when you said it (I think).... there are people who genuinely think that way. I think, myself anyway, I would need a series of showers to stop myself feeling dirty if I ever found myself doing it.

Eugene Norman

kunst nugget wrote: »

I grew up in the 70s and 80s and Christmas was all about Santa for me and every other kid I knew. Sure, they tried to throw that stuff about Jesus being born was thrown into the mix but we didn't give two figs. If that's what my kids think that's what Christmas is about at the age they are, I'm not going to be wringing my hands in despair. What Christmas means to me has obviously expanded over the years as I've gotten older but for me there's no one real meaning of Christmas. The real meaning of Christmas is what you want to make it about yourself.

Nobody I know has used a loan shark to do their Christmas shopping and everyone I know keeps their kids on the straight and narrow in terms of what they'll get. Common sense didn't die in the 80s.

I was born in 78. I know that Santa and presents and the toy show etc were big in the 80's. Star Wars merchandise was big. Home computers. Lego. Mechano. Barbie. Probably more expensive relative to salaries then than now.

Now our parents or grandparents could rightly complain about commercialisation in the 80's. It's not worse now.

Into The Blue

trixychic wrote: »

I think it's clear from how many posts there is that this post is genuine.

Yes, my eyes have been opened by this thread. Really shows what's out there when you talk to people outside of your normal everyday.

kunst nugget

Azalea wrote: »

You know full well I don't mean people who don't have Santa in their culture. This thread is about people telling children Santa isn't real, in a society like Ireland where Santa is a massive part of Christmas.

But they're living down the road to me and one of their children is in the same class as my child so their non participation in the Santa myth might expose my children to the fact that Santa doesn't exist. I should probably round them up just to be safe. Or is it just white kids and parents I should be worried about?

Into The Blue

IvaBigWun wrote: »

As I said - for you to dislike all kids

Can't imagine it would be OK to swap in any other word for kids and it would be acceptable in society.

Into The Blue

kunst nugget wrote: »

I should probably round them up just to be safe?

If you have to ask someone else this to know it's wrong, probably best to steer clear.

Sunflower 27

namloc1980 wrote: »

If you believe that people are going bankrupt over Christmas then you don't have a grip on reality. Christmas for us is all about family and all that good stuff with Santa in there as well. I can't imagine we're the only ones.

It is not what I believe, it is the stories I have read. Have you not read the stats regarding lian sharks at Christmas time?

Of course most people live within their means, but the commercialisation of Xmas to spend, spend, spend does pose problems for many at Xmas.

Azalea

Lol at people who pretend to be concerned that children are being deceived, when children are constantly deceived.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Well.... yes actually. That is one of the reasons I do not have discipline or behavior problems with my children. I am very good at having fun with them, and very good at finding ways to ensure they are engaged and stimulated when I can not personally spend time with them.

So I have never needed blackmail, let alone blackmail through the use of fictional characters, to work on keeping them in line. Though while it is apparent you were joking when you said it (I think).... there are people who genuinely think that way. I think, myself anyway, I would need a series of showers to stop myself feeling dirty if I ever found myself doing it.

Such po-faced, humourless, taking oneself so painfully seriously... is actually hilarious.

ch750536

Eugene Norman wrote: »

WOW! Nobody else is like that. We should copy you.

The self righteousness of the atheist anti-santy brigade here reminds me of a religious neighbour I had growing up who was similarly anti-materialist and had to be kept away from the neighbourhood kids lest she spill the beans for their own good. Same rhethoric about family and walks except she'd add in religious pieties about the birth of our Lord, and "His Season". To be fair she, when she wasn't destroying the pagan myth of santy for 4 year olds, used to help out at soup kitchens on Christmas Day.

Everything in life is about choice. What I eat, where I go, how I behave is all my choice. Nobody forces me.
Being honest with my kids is also my choice. Why do so many people have a problem with me choosing to be honest? What does the way I choose to spend christmas have to do with anyone else?

Read the quoted comment above and decide who is self righteous.

ch750536

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Do you read stories with talking animals to your kids? But a fat man in the North Pole making all the presents in the world is ridiculous?

I do read such stories, like the gruffalo. Difference is that I don't force them to believe it is real. I answer gruffalo questions as honestly as I can.
Same with star wars, santa & jeebus.

namloc1980

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

It is not what I believe, it is the stories I have read. Have you not read the stats regarding lian sharks at Christmas time?

Of course most people live within their means, but the commercialisation of Xmas to spend, spend, spend does pose problems for many at Xmas.

Going to a loan shark is not the same as bankruptcy. I would wager that nobody ever went bankrupt due to Christmas spend. And some people always go over the top or beyond their means and use loan sharks. That was true in the 70s and it is true today. Nothing new there.

nozzferrahhtoo

Azalea wrote: »

Lol at people who pretend to be concerned that children are being deceived, when children are constantly deceived.

Well sure. It is not as simply as "NEVER deceive children". There are genuine terms where and when it is the right thing to do. Much of our education system is reliant on the premise for example. We teach many "white lies" throughout the curriculum. Which we constantly correct and modify and update along the way.

Take a random example. The structure of the Atom. What we tell people at 12 is different to what we tell them at 16. And both are wrong.

There is a time and a place to engage in deception. So I would modify what you said slightly to remove the requirement for the "LOL" at the start of it. The concern not with children being deceived. The concern is with doing it wantonly and thoughtlessly for no reason, and the effects that might have.

I myself try not to deceive mine unless entirely necessary. And when they ask questions I do my best to answer them. My theory in general is that if they are old enough to ask, they are old enough for the answer. But again there are exceptions and caveats to that.

Azalea wrote: »

Such po-faced, humourless, taking oneself so painfully seriously... is actually hilarious.

I will keep my answer to your post to the interesting part and just bypass the name calling and getting personal.

Alf Veedersane

ch750536 wrote: »

I do read such stories, like the gruffalo. Difference is that I don't force them to believe it is real. I answer gruffalo questions as honestly as I can.
Same with star wars, santa & jeebus.

If you thought they thought the gruffalo was real would you make sure to let them know that it doesn't exist or just let them enjoy the gruffalo stories as they are?

An honest answer to an honest question is fair enough in my book.

I just don't think you would need to necessarily answer the 'is Santa real question' if it hasn't been asked. Not at a young age.

ch750536

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you thought they thought the gruffalo was real would you make sure to let them know that it doesn't exist or just let them enjoy the gruffalo stories as they are?

An honest answer to an honest question is fair enough in my book.

I just don't think you would need to necessarily answer the 'is Santa real question' if it hasn't been asked. Not at a young age.

The first time a kid hears of santa they normally ask if he is real. I imagine their gut instinct is flagged by the oddity of it all.
Yes, if they asked me if the gruffalo was real I would answer it honestly.
Our house if full of imagination and wonder, just a more wholesome, personal and less commercially based wonder. Just because you are honest it does not mean you have no imagination.

Into The Blue

ch750536 wrote: »

The first time a kid hears of santa they normally ask if he is real.

This is gas, only this morning my 1 yr old came in to the kitchen with a santa bauble she nicked from the tree, held it up all proud and shouted Santa triumphantly. She yet hasn't asked if the man himself is real or not.

Alf Veedersane

ch750536 wrote: »

The first time a kid hears of santa they normally ask if he is real. I imagine their gut instinct is flagged by the oddity of it all.

I think we'll have to disagree if you think that a typical 2 or 3 year old thinks much about the possibility of one fat lad in a sleigh being pulled by reindeer speeding around the world delivering presents via the chimney to the point where they would question it.

Eugene Norman

ch750536 wrote: »

Everything in life is about choice. What I eat, where I go, how I behave is all my choice. Nobody forces me.
Being honest with my kids is also my choice. Why do so many people have a problem with me choosing to be honest? What does the way I choose to spend christmas have to do with anyone else?

Read the quoted comment above and decide who is self righteous.

I'm still seeing you as more self righteous. Your last paragraph was about how Christmas to you was about family, walks, games, visiting family as if most people don't do that.


Belief in Santa Claus has no effect on any of those (largely adult) activities.

Sunflower 27

namloc1980 wrote: »

Going to a loan shark is not the same as bankruptcy. I would wager that nobody ever went bankrupt due to Christmas spend. And some people always go over the top or beyond their means and use loan sharks. That was true in the 70s and it is true today. Nothing new there.

You missed the point. I never said people went bankrupt. But people year on year get themselves into terrible debt because they buy into the commercialisation of Xmas.

And you are wrong, far more people get into trouble financially over Xmas than they did in the 1970s. A quick search online can confirm that.

ch750536

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I'm still seeing you as more self righteous. Your last paragraph was about how Christmas to you was about family, walks, games, visiting family as if most people don't do that.


Belief in Santa Claus has no effect on any of those (largely adult) activities.

Visit the local shopping district and tell me what christmas is about. We don't stress of gifts, kids are realistic and we have a great time. I appreciate you are saying that is what everyone does, not what I see.

For many people xmas is a very stressful time. It is a huge expense that they can't afford, partly due to big business persuading you to tell your kids that good kids get pressies.

Doesn't have to be that way

SAMTALK

Talking about getting into debt for Chrstmas has nothing to do with kids and Santa. You dont have to get into debt for a santa visit so using that and the commercialisation at christmas is no excuse for telling kids "the truth"..
One present from Santa and the fantasy of this lovely gentle giant looking after the children is all they need.
The "lying" tag is a tad harsh in my view. Its not like we're being horrible to the kids. we're just trying to make nice memories in what is a harsh enough world.
The look of joy and disbelief in my kids eyes is something ill always treasure. There will be enough sad days ahead of them im sure

Sunflower 27

SAMTALK wrote: »

Talking about getting into debt for Chrstmas has nothing to do with kids and Santa. You dont have to get into debt for a santa visit so using that and the commercialisation at christmas is no excuse for telling kids "the truth"..
One present from Santa and the fantasy of this lovely gentle giant looking after the children is all they need.
The "lying" tag is a tad harsh in my view. Its not like we're being horrible to the kids. we're just trying to make nice memories in what is a harsh enough world.
The look of joy and disbelief in my kids eyes is something ill always treasure. There will be enough sad days ahead of them im sure

I wasn't saying we should tell kids there is no Santa to not buyvthem gifts, that would be very cruel. I don't think anyone on here has suggested that.

Alf Veedersane

ch750536 wrote: »

partly due to big business persuading you to tell your kids that good kids get pressies.

Big business just puts up cool stuff that kids will want. They don't care if the kids are good or not and they don't persuade you to tell your kids that only good kids get pressies. Why would they? They want to sell to everyone.

SAMTALK

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I wasn't saying we should tell kids there is no Santa to not buyvthem gifts, that would be very cruel. I don't think anyone on here has suggested that.

So we should tell them for what reason?? That we feel good that we dont "lie" to them or that they are beyond living a bit of magic

namloc1980

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

You missed the point. I never said people went bankrupt. But people year on year get themselves into terrible debt because they buy into the commercialisation of Xmas.

And you are wrong, far more people get into trouble financially over Xmas than they did in the 1970s. A quick search online can confirm that.

I'm not really getting your point to be honest. Because a very small number of people get themselves into debt due to Christmas we should what, cancel Christmas to save a few eejits from themselves? What is your actual point?

freshpopcorn

I know plenty of kids who were born the 70's/80's. Who parents bought them Barbie, action man, care bears, bikes, ride on tractors and they were expensive. Did parents go to illegal loan sharks back then? I've heard stories of people surrounding there children's allounce book to loan sharks back then. I know people now a days who get credit union loans for paying for Christmas as they they do for holidays/events and once they feel they can pay it back. I don't really see the problem. And of course some people go to illegal loan sharks now a days bit the same people tend to go to them to pay off all large bills such as holidays/car insurance etc.
Regarding some body saying that they don't get the point of the children only receiving off a man and never giving.
Well maybe I grew up on a different planet but most little kids I know still make /bake something small for mammy/daddy and Granny whilst receiving their Santa presents and once there not spoilt rotten they under stand giving/receving/being generous/kind if you teach it to them anyway.

ScumLord

Smidge wrote: »

Santa is magical.
You only get a handful of years with it. Once the children know, well, it really is just about "getting stuff" for xmas.

I have to say, the people who I have known who told their children that Santa wasnt real were either....
"Right on" types.
Hipsters trying to be edgy.
Thought that their children were by far intellectually superior(they weren't, just brats with a big gob spouting things "Mommy and Pops" chatted about over lattes)
Penny pinchers(didn't like the idea of spending on their kids, less nice things for them. This goes for the ones booking skiing trips to the ones buying an extra slab of beers)
Cruel parents(this REALLY does exist sadly)
My kids aren't spoiled(dont believe in getting everything you want, one pressie asked for and surprise).
Only have one for Santa though and reckon this will be their last year.
Dreading it.

Christmas is about children and family and for me, children are central to the family unit.
Give them as much magic as you can. While you can

Nice way of labeling everyone you disagree with. I suppose since you're in fantasy mode it's easy to jump to conclusions.

If people want to believe in fantasies like santa claus, fairies, gods and magic then they're perfectly entitled to. But I'm not going to pretend I believe in magic to perpetuate myths I see no value in.

ch750536

namloc1980 wrote: »

I'm not really getting your point to be honest. Because a very small number of people get themselves into debt due to Christmas we should what, cancel Christmas to save a few eejits from themselves? What is your actual point?

It's fine that you don't see it. Just because I do see it does not give you any right to tell me I'm sick, evil or just cruel for the choices I make. At no point have I told anyone here they are wrong for perpetuating Santa myths or judged you in any way. It's your choice what you do.

namloc1980

ch750536 wrote: »

It's fine that you don't see it. Just because I do see it does not give you any right to tell me I'm sick, evil or just cruel for the choices I make. At no point have I told anyone here they are wrong for perpetuating Santa myths or judged you in any way. It's your choice what you do.

Could you please point out the post where I said you were sick, evil or cruel??


Hint: I didn't.

Sunflower 27

namloc1980 wrote: »

I'm not really getting your point to be honest. Because a very small number of people get themselves into debt due to Christmas we should what, cancel Christmas to save a few eejits from themselves? What is your actual point?

A very small number? I wouldn't call in excess of 50% very small, would you? That was noted in a study last year. And yes, in Ireland.

In April last year, one third of consumers were still paying off Christmas debt.

You are basing your comments on nothing but your own view of society, which is quite limited.

And who said cancel christmas!? Like that would even be possible, what an odd statement to make.

ch750536

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

And who said cancel christmas!? Like that would even be possible, what an odd statement to make.

Its an odd one. The religious aspect is seriously second fiddle to the fat man in red, in a way 'Christ-mas' is kinda cancelled.

Ask the kids what christmas is about and see if PS4's rate higher than jeebus & co.

freshpopcorn

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

A very small number? I wouldn't call in excess of 50% very small, would you? That was noted in a study last year. And yes, in Ireland.

In April last year, one third of consumers were still paying off Christmas debt.

You are basing your comments on nothing but your own view of society, which is quite limited.

And who said cancel christmas!? Like that would even be possible, what an odd statement to make.

And so what if people are paying off for Christmas in April. I know people who get Credit Union loans for Christmas and they have a brilliant time over the festive period and they've no issue with paying back the loan well in June the next year.
Same with people who get holiday loans and car loans.
I know people who buy new cars on finance/get loans every three years. These people would admit to you they don't do enough driving to justify have a new car but they enjoy having enough car.

ScumLord

freshpopcorn wrote: »

And so what if people are paying off for Christmas in April. I know people who get Credit Union loans for Christmas and they have a brilliant time over the festive period and they've no issue with paying back the loan well in June the next year.
Same with people who get holiday loans and car loans.
I know people who buy new cars on finance/get loans every three years. These people would admit to you they don't do enough driving to justify have a new car but they enjoy having enough car.

Investing in a car or home is a bit different from investing in "magic" as ye're calling it. Especially when that "magic" comes in a form of an overpriced toy from china, where the kid spends the first hour playing with the box it came in and has forgotten about the toy a week later.

I think people are completely blinkered by this Christmas "magic", you can't look at it in any kind of logical way because you're blinded by all the "magic" thats bursting out of your childs ears. The idea that the winter season can't be a happy time without santa "magic" (let's just ignore the baby Jesus for now) is just nonsense, small minded nonsense.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Shenshen wrote: »

Is it? It was started about an completely anonymous woman - she may be Irish, she may not. She may be Christian, she may be not.

I've made it quite clear in my own post that I come from a culture that does not have Santa clause, and was still told I was wrong to even consider not telling my not-yet-existing children about Santa.
As far as I can see, no poster here came out to say they would deliberately tell any children other than their own that Santa was not real, but even that doesn't seem to be good enough for the Santa Defense League. From what I can tell, the demand seems to be to make sure your children believe in Santa for as long as possible, or face being driven out of town.

Personally, I really, really don't understand the whole Santa thing. When I was a kid, my mom would occasionally mention that it's the Christkindl that brings the presents, but all presents under the tree were always well labelled so you could thank the person who gave them to you. And we were encouraged from a very early age to give presents to the people closest to us, as well. Christmas to me was always about giving first, being grateful second, and receiving presents third.
When I have children, I want them to grow up feeling the same way. Feeling the joy of giving a little bag of christmas biscuits they helped bake to granny, or their best artwork in a nice frame to dad. And I want them to appreciate the love and thought others have put into selecting the presents they receive themselves.

Please don't anybody take this the wrong way, but Santa - to me - takes a lot of that love and feeling away from christmas. There's no giving, just taking. There's no appreciation of a certain person having given you a certain gift for a certain reason. It's not someone you know and love, it's a complete stranger showing up once a year and dropping gifts.

Yes there is.

Alot of people leave a glass of whiskey and some christmas cake to thank Santa on Christmas Eve plus a carrot for the Reindeer.

freshpopcorn

ScumLord wrote: »

Investing in a car or home is a bit different from investing in "magic" as ye're calling it. Especially when that "magic" comes in a form of an overpriced toy from china, where the kid spends the first hour playing with the box it came in and has forgotten about the toy a week later.

I think people are completely blinkered by this Christmas "magic", you can't look at it in any kind of logical way because you're blinded by all the "magic" thats bursting out of your childs ears. The idea that the winter season can't be a happy time without santa "magic" (let's just ignore the baby Jesus for now) is just nonsense, small minded nonsense.

I never said home. I said a loan for a new car and holidays. Things people get loans for and often don't need. I also said I know people who get car loans and they admit they don't need them. They just want them because they like them.

iguana

valoren wrote: »

The Santa character falls under the same bracket. He is a great tool for enabling good behaviour.

The naughty or nice list, the coal in the christmas sock is merely part of this.
To suggest this is manipulating children through deceit is quite the stretch.
What parent would actually leave coal in a child's sock ffs?.

I do Santa but that side of it seems really self-defeating. I want my son to display good behaviour because I've helped him develop his sense of empathy alongside healthy self esteem. I expect him to be 'good' because he thinks about how his actions can impact on other people and he takes that into account when he makes decisions not because I've trained him to be good for a reward like a dog. The fact is that Santa is ultimately an expression of my love for him and like my love for him, Santa is not conditional on his behaviour.

Threatening him with a removal of the most joyous morning of the year would be a cruel way of conditioning him to act as I prefer. And as he gets older it would be stupid as he'd know it is an empty threat anyway and lessen his respect for me.

iguana

Shenshen wrote: »

Please don't anybody take this the wrong way, but Santa - to me - takes a lot of that love and feeling away from christmas. There's no giving, just taking. There's no appreciation of a certain person having given you a certain gift for a certain reason. It's not someone you know and love, it's a complete stranger showing up once a year and dropping gifts.

See from my perspective it's the opposite. I look back on my childhood Christmases and I think of the things my parents did for me, knowing they would never get any thanks, as an amazing expression of love. They had next to no money and yet they got us the most amazing gifts. My dad would pick up things other people were throwing out, sometimes stuff from people we knew but often just strangers' rubbish (he was a binman) and at night when we were in bed, he and my mother would rework it into something amazing. Like when he got an old dolls house and repainted it into a red brick house that looked like our house and my mum decorated the rooms to match ours. Or the cot they made for my baby doll that my mum made the bedding for and my dad painted beautiful roses all over. They'd stay up late working on these toys, like literal elves, and know that 'someone else' would get all the credit. I'm just in utter awe of it now that I understand that level of sacrifice and love.

I try to do the same for my son now. I'm not poor but some of the things he wants don't exist (the female superhero figures for the playset he is asking for and the ones he's getting as a surprise). So I've been learning how to make custom action figures and I sit up late at night painting and sculpting for him. He'll never know the lengths I've gone to, he'll just know that Santa is great and can make toys that aren't in shops. But it just feels so amazing to be able to give without any payback other than his pure joy.

kunst nugget

iguana wrote: »

See from my perspective it's the opposite. I look back on my childhood Christmases and I think of the things my parents did for me, knowing they would never get any thanks, as an amazing expression of love. They had next to no money and yet they got us the most amazing gifts. My dad would pick up things other people were throwing out, sometimes stuff from people we knew but often just strangers' rubbish (he was a binman) and at night when we were in bed, he and my mother would rework it into something amazing. Like when he got and old dolls house and repainted it into a red brick house that looked like ours and my mum decorated the rooms to match ours. Or the cot they made for my baby doll that my mum made the bedding for and my dad painted beautiful roses all over. They'd stay up late working on these toys, like literal elves, and know that 'someone else' would get all the credit. I'm just in utter awe of it now that I understand that level of sacrifice and love.

I try to do the same for my son now. I'm not poor but some of the things he wants don't exist (the female superhero figures for the playset he is asking for and the ones he's getting as a surprise). So I've been learning how to make custom action figures and I sit up late at night painting and sculpting for him. He'll never know the lengths I've gone to, he'll just know that Santa is great and can make toys that aren't in shops. But it just feels so amazing to be able to give without any payback other than his pure joy.

Honestly, that post makes all the rest of the guff written in this thread disappear. Absolutely beautiful. There's the spirit of Christmas right there.

My wife and I try to do things to make things special for the kids. Every year she writes up letters that they get for Christmas from Santa and I'll design them in work and make them up to look like scrolls. We got our daughter tickets for One Direction two years ago and I made up special tickets for them from the North Pole office of Ticketmaster that we could hand her rather than the ones that would have my wife's name on them that would taken away from the magic of it all. We spend what we can on our kids, which might not be a lot, but we do our best to make it as exciting as we can for them.

The Bishop Basher

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So I have never needed blackmail, let alone blackmail through the use of fictional characters, to work on keeping them in line. Though while it is apparent you were joking when you said it (I think).... there are people who genuinely think that way. I think, myself anyway, I would need a series of showers to stop myself feeling dirty if I ever found myself doing it.

You can do all of the above and still have behaviour issues. Likewise you could do none and end up with perfect model children. Obviously how we choose to raise them has a significant impact but there's a lot more at play.

I'm assuming by blackmail, we actually mean bargaining. Blackmail would indicate that we're coercing them into giving us something of value which is clearly not the case. I would hazard a guess that to say you've never bargained with your children is untrue.

Unless your children were born with an adult intellect, fully developed speech and a fully developed sense of right and wrong, you will, at some stage, have had to bargain with them to bring them in line.

That's how we humans work...

Mine are teenagers now and i still have to bargain with them on occasion. Why do I do it ? Because it works. It's usually something as simple as "If you don't clean your room you're not going to the party."

Does that make me a bad parent ? Of course not. Is my method any better or worse then yours ? Of course not.

We're all just trying to raise our brats as well as we can with the resources we have available to us.

Shenshen

iguana wrote: »

See from my perspective it's the opposite. I look back on my childhood Christmases and I think of the things my parents did for me, knowing they would never get any thanks, as an amazing expression of love. They had next to no money and yet they got us the most amazing gifts. My dad would pick up things other people were throwing out, sometimes stuff from people we knew but often just strangers' rubbish (he was a binman) and at night when we were in bed, he and my mother would rework it into something amazing. Like when he got an old dolls house and repainted it into a red brick house that looked like our house and my mum decorated the rooms to match ours. Or the cot they made for my baby doll that my mum made the bedding for and my dad painted beautiful roses all over. They'd stay up late working on these toys, like literal elves, and know that 'someone else' would get all the credit. I'm just in utter awe of it now that I understand that level of sacrifice and love.

I try to do the same for my son now. I'm not poor but some of the things he wants don't exist (the female superhero figures for the playset he is asking for and the ones he's getting as a surprise). So I've been learning how to make custom action figures and I sit up late at night painting and sculpting for him. He'll never know the lengths I've gone to, he'll just know that Santa is great and can make toys that aren't in shops. But it just feels so amazing to be able to give without any payback other than his pure joy.

I'm only talking as a former child here.
People were very keen to point out the "magic" of christmas - to me, that was never in the receiving part, but in the giving. The happiest christmas memories I have are of my grandmother teaching me how to knit so I could make a scarf for my grandfather, of my mother helping me (well, it was probably more me helping my mother, but that's memories for you) make and decorate christmas biscuits to give to my friends, my grandfather teaching me woodcraft so I could make a spice-rack for my mother, and later of me spending endless hours each year from October onwards of making and/or finding gifts to give to people I loved.

And that bit is missing entirely once all the pressies come from Santa. I get how the parents get to give, but the children don't.
I realise that it's very much a cultural thing, but I wouldn't trade my childhood christmasses for ones containing Santa, I would feel like losing out.

Sunflower 27

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm only talking as a former child here.
People were very keen to point out the "magic" of christmas - to me, that was never in the receiving part, but in the giving. The happiest christmas memories I have are of my grandmother teaching me how to knit so I could make a scarf for my grandfather, of my mother helping me (well, it was probably more me helping my mother, but that's memories for you) make and decorate christmas biscuits to give to my friends, my grandfather teaching me woodcraft so I could make a spice-rack for my mother, and later of me spending endless hours each year from October onwards of making and/or finding gifts to give to people I loved.

And that bit is missing entirely once all the pressies come from Santa. I get how the parents get to give, but the children don't.
I realise that it's very much a cultural thing, but I wouldn't trade my childhood christmasses for ones containing Santa, I would feel like losing out.

That's really lovely. Thanks for sharing that

Sunflower 27

ScumLord wrote: »

Investing in a car or home is a bit different from investing in "magic" as ye're calling it. Especially when that "magic" comes in a form of an overpriced toy from china, where the kid spends the first hour playing with the box it came in and has forgotten about the toy a week later.

I think people are completely blinkered by this Christmas "magic", you can't look at it in any kind of logical way because you're blinded by all the "magic" thats bursting out of your childs ears. The idea that the winter season can't be a happy time without santa "magic" (let's just ignore the baby Jesus for now) is just nonsense, small minded nonsense.

Well said. It isn't Santa and presents that make Christmas magical. If it is, you are doing it wrong

Smidge

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Christmas is about everyone. It isn't about a fictional character flying around giving out presents. Although I suppose that is how most children see it now days.

It was a lot different when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s. Parents had a lot more cop on back then. They bought what they could afford, not like today, the stories about parents turning to loan sharks to buy their kids what they think they should is very sad.

A sign of the times, I suppose. The real meaning of Christmas was lost a long time ago. It is so commercial now and about buying gifts. Keeps retailers happy though

I think you mean SOME parents today

I had my santa years mid 70's to early 80's.
It was just as magical for me as it is for my children. Why would I ever dream of depriving them of one of the best parts of my childhood???
I just cant comprehend that.
I looked forward to Santy's arrival from my first day back in school in September (as did many of the other kids )

Smidge

ScumLord wrote: »

Nice way of labeling everyone you disagree with. I suppose since you're in fantasy mode it's easy to jump to conclusions.

If people want to believe in fantasies like santa claus, fairies, gods and magic then they're perfectly entitled to. But I'm not going to pretend I believe in magic to perpetuate myths I see no value in.

Now now, SL.....
You do know the "Elf on the shelf" is watching you?
Keep that up and it will be a lump of coal in your stocking

Fluffy Cat 88

Azalea wrote: »

Agreed hugely. I'll admit, I don't understand people not liking kids but that post is just nasty. "Lacking a basic female quality" - wtf?

Happily child free people let that sh1t in one ear and out the other while nodding slowly, thinking about the lovely peaceful comfortable life they have.

That's what I do anyway ; )

deathtocaptcha

Kids are not stupid. Telling them Santa Clause isn't real won't suddenly lower their intelligence or change their character. They'll forget about it in within a week and get on with their lives - the same way we get on with our lives when loved ones die.

Kids deserve the truth at all times with trivial matters like this. If you're relying on Santa Clause as the only source of magic / inspiration for you kid, then you need to take a good hard look at yourself as a parent.

Parents like the idea of Santa Clause because it's romantic and has been passed along through generations. But when you stop and think about it, it doesn't make any sense and only serves to pollute the minds of children, much like religion and other fantasy based stories / traditions.

Parents think they're the smart, intelligent ones by holding secrets from kids and trying to maintain the Santa Clause illusion for as long as possible but these are the same parents who believe in God and tell their child god exists...

To a child, there is no difference between God and Santa Clause... it's hypocritical to tell children / confirm for them that Santa Clause doesn't exist and then to tell them God does exist..

namloc1980

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

Kids are not stupid. Telling them Santa Clause isn't real won't suddenly lower their intelligence or change their character. They'll forget about it in within a week and get on with their lives - the same way we get on with our lives when loved ones die.

Kids deserve the truth at all times with trivial matters like this. If you're relying on Santa Clause as the only source of magic / inspiration for you kid, then you need to take a good hard look at yourself as a parent.

Parents like the idea of Santa Clause because it's romantic and has been passed along through generations. But when you stop and think about it, it doesn't make any sense and only serves to pollute the minds of children, much like religion and other fantasy based stories / traditions.

Parents think they're the smart, intelligent ones by holding secrets from kids and trying to maintain the Santa Clause illusion for as long as possible but these are the same parents who believe in God and tell their child god exists...

To a child, there is no difference between God and Santa Clause... it's hypocritical to tell children / confirm for them that Santa Clause doesn't exist and then to tell them God does exist..

Can you find one post in this thread where someone claimed Santa was the only source of magic or inspiration for their kids?

And why do you assume that people who have Santa are automatically religious?