There's no such thing as Santa Claus!!!

namloc1980

kunst nugget wrote: »

Honestly, that post makes all the rest of the guff written in this thread disappear. Absolutely beautiful. There's the spirit of Christmas right there.

My wife and I try to do things to make things special for the kids. Every year she writes up letters that they get for Christmas from Santa and I'll design them in work and make them up to look like scrolls. We got our daughter tickets for One Direction two years ago and I made up special tickets for them from the North Pole office of Ticketmaster that we could hand her rather than the ones that would have my wife's name on them that would taken away from the magic of it all. We spend what we can on our kids, which might not be a lot, but we do our best to make it as exciting as we can for them.

Great post, but you do know you are nasty conspirators perpetuating a great evil lie on your kids and affecting their development (according to the anti Santa crew anyway).

namloc1980

Shenshen wrote: »

I realise that it's very much a cultural thing, but I wouldn't trade my childhood christmasses for ones containing Santa, I would feel like losing out.

How do you know if you never had a Santa Christmas? Those who did have Santa have both perspectives, the short few years when they had Santa and then the rest of the time without.

Shenshen

namloc1980 wrote: »

How do you know if you never had a Santa Christmas? Those who did have Santa have both perspectives, the short few years when they had Santa and then the rest of the time without.

I would not have had those first few years, the ones where I learned the most. I would not have had that experience of being in a position where all year round, I would get given everything by my parents but then had the one occasion to give back.

Just from reading through this thread - there's a lot of talk about the few years of "magic" of it, followed by the in some cases apparently devastating experience of being told it's not real.

Compared with christmas magic uninterrupted from my very first memories to the present day?

Still perfer my experience, thanks.

ScumLord

Smidge wrote: »

Now now, SL.....
You do know the "Elf on the shelf" is watching you?
Keep that up and it will be a lump of coal in your stocking

I've been saving them up for years. So jokes on santa, I've now got a 7kg bag of coal, and all I had to do was be a bollox for 30 years.

namloc1980

Shenshen wrote: »

I would not have had those first few years, the ones where I learned the most. I would not have had that experience of being in a position where all year round, I would get given everything by my parents but then had the one occasion to give back.

Just from reading through this thread - there's a lot of talk about the few years of "magic" of it, followed by the in some cases apparently devastating experience of being told it's not real.

Compared with christmas magic uninterrupted from my very first memories to the present day?

Still perfer my experience, thanks.

You're making the invalid assumption that Santa only means take take take. It's only a part of Christmas. Kids who have Santa are perfectly capable of giving at Christmas and at other times.

Shenshen

namloc1980 wrote: »

You're making the invalid assumption that Santa only means take take take. It's only a part of Christmas. Kids who have Santa are perfectly capable of giving at Christmas and at other times.

I don't doubt that they're capable. Every kid is. What I'm wondering is if they're being encouraged. After all, with Santa bringing the gifts, why would they give anything? Sure they'd be putting Santa out of a job.

namloc1980

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't doubt that they're capable. Every kid is. What I'm wondering is if they're being encouraged. After all, with Santa bringing the gifts, why would they give anything? Sure they'd be putting Santa out of a job.

Again you're making the same assumption. Assuming kids with Santa are selfish little people. In my household that certainly isn't the case. I doubt we're the only ones.

Alf Veedersane

iguana wrote: »

See from my perspective it's the opposite. I look back on my childhood Christmases and I think of the things my parents did for me, knowing they would never get any thanks, as an amazing expression of love. They had next to no money and yet they got us the most amazing gifts. My dad would pick up things other people were throwing out, sometimes stuff from people we knew but often just strangers' rubbish (he was a binman) and at night when we were in bed, he and my mother would rework it into something amazing. Like when he got an old dolls house and repainted it into a red brick house that looked like our house and my mum decorated the rooms to match ours. Or the cot they made for my baby doll that my mum made the bedding for and my dad painted beautiful roses all over. They'd stay up late working on these toys, like literal elves, and know that 'someone else' would get all the credit. I'm just in utter awe of it now that I understand that level of sacrifice and love.

I try to do the same for my son now. I'm not poor but some of the things he wants don't exist (the female superhero figures for the playset he is asking for and the ones he's getting as a surprise). So I've been learning how to make custom action figures and I sit up late at night painting and sculpting for him. He'll never know the lengths I've gone to, he'll just know that Santa is great and can make toys that aren't in shops. But it just feels so amazing to be able to give without any payback other than his pure joy.

That post is a thing of beauty.

I tip my cap to you and yours because that's genuinely heart warming.

iguana

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm only talking as a former child here.
People were very keen to point out the "magic" of christmas - to me, that was never in the receiving part, but in the giving. The happiest christmas memories I have are of my grandmother teaching me how to knit so I could make a scarf for my grandfather, of my mother helping me (well, it was probably more me helping my mother, but that's memories for you) make and decorate christmas biscuits to give to my friends, my grandfather teaching me woodcraft so I could make a spice-rack for my mother, and later of me spending endless hours each year from October onwards of making and/or finding gifts to give to people I loved.

And that bit is missing entirely once all the pressies come from Santa. I get how the parents get to give, but the children don't.
I realise that it's very much a cultural thing, but I wouldn't trade my childhood christmasses for ones containing Santa, I would feel like losing out.

Shenshen wrote: »

I would not have had those first few years, the ones where I learned the most. I would not have had that experience of being in a position where all year round, I would get given everything by my parents but then had the one occasion to give back.

Sorry but I wonder if you are confused about a typical Christmas with Santa. It's normal here for children to either make or buy gifts for their family members too. All of the exchange of gifts between family members that you described, happens during our Christmas too. Santa is in addition to all that, not instead of.

I stand by anyone's right to not follow the Santa tradition if they don't want to. But just as those who don't follow it aren't miserable (swear words) who give their kids crap Christmasses. Those who do follow it don't just have grabby kids who make lists to magical beings and expect to simply receive in exchange for nothing for their loved ones. Kids get just how special the wonderful love of Christmas is even if they can't always articulate it. If they didn't it wouldn't be a common theme for kids to be kind of sad on the 26th of December. Because if it was just about receiving the 26th would be a great day where you get to play with all your great new stuff. Instead kids have all the stuff but they miss the utter happiness that their families create (with or without Santa) on the 24th/25th.

nozzferrahhtoo

Swanner wrote: »

You can do all of the above and still have behaviour issues.

Erm.... I never suggested otherwise. Not sure why your reply was directed at me.

Swanner wrote: »

I'm assuming by blackmail, we actually mean bargaining.

You might mean that. But no, generally if I say X, I mean X. By all means assume I mean something else by the words I choose to use, or assume that when I use one word I actually mean another. You will succeed only in being in error however, which I doubt is your main goal.

I said black mail because I meant black mail, especially given the context of the user I was replying to who was using the word "threat". I am well aware of the distinction between black mail and bargaining.

Swanner wrote: »

Does that make me a bad parent ? Of course not. Is my method any better or worse then yours ? Of course not.

Also not something I suggested, so once again not sure why any of this is directed towards me.

Swanner wrote: »

We're all just trying to raise our brats

Sorry to hear this. It is not a feeling, description, or head space I find myself to be in however. I wish you all the best as it goes on.

Cork Lass

ScumLord wrote: »

It's not really the same thing. SAnta isn't the same as spiderman. Kids know spider man isn't real, we don't try and convince them that spider man is real. Kids get caught up in the fantasy and it's borderline real for them but at the end of the day they know it's a story, some guy wrote it and it's not real.

That's not what we do with santa. We tell them he's definitely real, he's watching everything they do (like a back up Jesus), we do things like sending letters, leaving out food, it's a pretty elaborate deception in all fairness. We're not really giving them a chance to make their own mind up about it.

I wonder what it does to a westerners mind to find out that society as a whole was conspiring against you. I know we generally accept it and move on but look how distrusting people are of authority today? Look how likely we are to see conspiracies all over the place. It could be that the santa myth is doing us no favours as a society. But we're all so invested in it we don't want to look at it critically.

Just out of curiosity, do you have the statistics that show how many children have been damaged by believing in Santa. personally I've never met one.

deseil

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

Kids are not stupid. Telling them Santa Clause isn't real won't suddenly lower their intelligence or change their character. They'll forget about it in within a week and get on with their lives - the same way we get on with our lives when loved ones die.

Kids deserve the truth at all times with trivial matters like this. If you're relying on Santa Clause as the only source of magic / inspiration for you kid, then you need to take a good hard look at yourself as a parent.

Parents like the idea of Santa Clause because it's romantic and has been passed along through generations. But when you stop and think about it, it doesn't make any sense and only serves to pollute the minds of children, much like religion and other fantasy based stories / traditions.

Parents think they're the smart, intelligent ones by holding secrets from kids and trying to maintain the Santa Clause illusion for as long as possible but these are the same parents who believe in God and tell their child god exists...

To a child, there is no difference between God and Santa Clause... it's hypocritical to tell children / confirm for them that Santa Clause doesn't exist and then to tell them God does exist..

This made me so sad to read, I really hope this isnt where were heading as a society, it utterly depresses me if your views are the future! Grey I hate Grey

Azalea

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

Parents think they're the smart, intelligent ones by holding secrets from kids and trying to maintain the Santa Clause illusion for as long as possible

Well it could also be argued that the parents who tell their children from day one that there is no such thing as Santa Claus think they're the smart intelligent ones.

but these are the same parents who believe in God and tell their child god exists...

To a child, there is no difference between God and Santa Clause... it's hypocritical to tell children / confirm for them that Santa Clause doesn't exist and then to tell them God does exist..

Do you genuinely think atheist parents never embrace Santa?

To a child, there is no difference between God and Santa Claus? How come I knew the difference as a child so?

Gaygooner

Santa rocks. Don't be a dick and spoil kids' fun. Life is shyte for long enough

Paramite Pie

Deleted User wrote: »

Vitriol towards this lady a bit much

She didn't want her kids thinking there was a Santa. No big deal. Those kids told some other kids. No big deal.

She could have told her kids (and maybe she did) not to tell other kids.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not like they don't know a good deal earlier than people are pretending in here either. Some people saying eleven. Eleven!

They'll be riding at eleven ye poor deluded stooges.

I found out at eleven. No big deal - when I got into debates over whether he was real or not (and yes our class was quite evenly divided into believers and non-believers!) I even went to the trouble of getting the T Encyclopedia from the school library and looking up timezones to "prove" it was possible, explaining that night would last a long long time.:D

Azalea

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I will keep my answer to your post to the interesting part and just bypass the name calling and getting personal.

I meant in general but I can see how you would interpret it as personal and I apologise.

No agreement will be reached here and getting snarky and insulting towards people (of which I have been guilty - and comments by Nox make me nearly have the non Santa people's backs ) won't achieve anything.

The constant talk about atheists and believers is ludicrous too IMO - it's not even relevant.

All I'm saying is, I simply cannot understand why a person would tell their child who believes in Santa that there is no such thing when the child is only five or six. What benefit to the child would there be in shattering a fantasy that gives them so much joy? If it's concern over deceiving them... well it's not like it's malicious deceit, and it's not as if it's the only non truth children are told in order to make life nicer - and I simply cannot recall being made aware of *any* person being damaged by the Santa lie. They got older (as in, nine, ten), more aware of reality, realised or found out - were briefly disappointed, and then moved on. Then got to a stage where they were amused at their innocence in believing something so absurd but lovely.
To me it's like imposing a more mature person's worldview on a little kid. It seems so harsh. It's just living a story - no different to letting children believe in fairies or magic, via books and television programmes.
Which is worse - to tell them a lie for six or seven Christmases that creates so much excitement and joy for them, or to upset them with the truth at the height of their belief?

Then there's the other scenario: not doing the Santa thing at all. This is totally fair enough in families who are from cultures that don't have Santa. In anglophone cultures, e.g. here, though, well they're entitled to their choice of course - but when Santa is all over the place, and people have been brought up with "him" for generations, and most people believed as children and their parents indulged this... I'm just wondering how being the odd one out is dealt with - do they tell other children at school? (Although perhaps not a huge concern when the kids are very small to be fair - I remember the odd child in my class saying Santa was bull when we were under nine, and just thinking they were the ones talking bull) Do the children wonder why other children have Santa and they don't? I'm not trying to insult people (although maybe people will be insulted, but it is not my intention to insult) but it really does seem to be more about the parent(s) than the child to forego this tradition for the sake of feeling like their child is more intelligent, more enlightened, even superior to other children. It just seems "Well I think it's nonsense so therefore my child won't get to experience it". It's so much fun and wonder - I cannot get my head around denying a young child this when it's all around them.

It doesn't necessarily encourage children not to give presents. As soon as I was old enough, I was buying little presents for my parents, grandparents and siblings. Still remember my first Christmas giving gifts clearly: I was nine - Terrys chocolate orange for my mother, tobacco (probably awful cheap nasty stuff :pac:) for my dad, Pet Cemetary for my brothers, socks and a biro for my grandad, a diffuser for my nana, and gloves for my gran. It's like, the joy of receiving a gift is infectious and you want to give others that. To this day I love giving people gifts.
Becoming materialistic and spoilt is down to the individual/how they are raised - Santa certainly didn't cause any of those kinds of tendencies in me, as my parents would have given me a clip around the ear. Different children got different amounts of presents but we didn't feel any concern about that - we were just happy with our own gifts.

weadick

It's amazing how the tradition of Santa Claus has lasted so long given how un PC it is; an old bearded man climbing into kids bedrooms during the night and emptying his bulging red sack...

Sunflower 27

Smidge wrote: »

I think you mean SOME parents today

I had my santa years mid 70's to early 80's.
It was just as magical for me as it is for my children. Why would I ever dream of depriving them of one of the best parts of my childhood???
I just cant comprehend that.
I looked forward to Santy's arrival from my first day back in school in September (as did many of the other kids )

I never said parents should tell kids Santa isnt real. Not sure why people are suggesting that. I said that there are too many stories of it becoming a farce by parents getting into debt buying gifts that they can't afford. And yes, I 100% agree, some parents. Some are clued in enough to not get into debt by buying crap their kids will soon tire of.

It's about finding that middle ground.

Maybe there is an element of 'keeping up with the Jones'.'

The magic of christmas is not proportionate to the amount of money spent or presents bought.

That some parents would get into debt is shocking. And as someone who works dealing with people that are depressed, anxious etc, I know that financial worries can be devastating and impact greatly on well-being

Comparing getting into debt over toys to a family car is ridiculous. A family car will serve a family for years and in many cases is a necessity. The latest overpriced tat from China, not so much.

Nowhere have I said dispel the myth of Santa.

Sunflower 27

weadick wrote: »

It's amazing how the tradition of Santa Claus has lasted so long given how un PC it is; an old bearded man climbing into kids bedrooms during the night and emptying his bulging red sack...

Why wouldn't they believe it when almost every adult corroborates he is real? News stations even do stories of where the sleigh is at any given time Christmas eve. I don't think it is that odd kids believe it.

freshpopcorn

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I never said parents should tell kids Santa isnt real. Not sure why people are suggesting that. I said that there are too many stories of it becoming a farce by parents getting into debt buying gifts that they can't afford. And yes, I 100% agree, some parents. Some are clued in enough to not get into debt by buying crap their kids will soon tire of.

It's about finding that middle ground.

Maybe there is an element of 'keeping up with the Jones'.'

The magic of christmas is not proportionate to the amount of money spent or presents bought.

That some parents would get into debt is shocking. And as someone who works dealing with people that are depressed, anxious etc, I know that financial worries can be devastating and impact greatly on well-being

Comparing getting into debt over toys to a family car is ridiculous. A family car will serve a family for years and in many cases is a necessity. The latest overpriced tat from China, not so much.

Nowhere have I said dispel the myth of Santa.

Just out interest do by our consider getting a Credit Union loan for Christmas going into debt if people can pay it back?
A bike, I pad, phone, clothes even dolls, etc is not all cheap crap from China. I still have toys/remember toys from Christmas and I loved them and they cost money.

Sunflower 27

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Just out interest do by our consider getting a Credit Union loan for Christmas going into debt if people can pay it back?

Is that what you do? Does it stress you out afterwards? Does it make life difficult in the months after Christmas a problem?

I'd consider these the question to ask.

Every situation is different. Clearly if buying loads of gifts causes financial strain then yes, it is a problem. I know of people who have become depressed over it and also feel the same sense of foreboding as Christmas approaches because they know it will be a financial strain that will have implications for months. Clearly the answer is don't buy so much, but how can they not provide the level if what they did the previous year? Tell their kids there is a recession in Lapland?

If someone takes out a loan for Christmas, can pay it back with little emotional stress to themselves and their family afterwards then of course, where is the problem? It's the others, those with limited means that don't want to let their kids down that are the ones with a problem.

For a lot of people, debt is a highly stressful situation, for those who it isn't, then no problem.

Also it is not a question of 'if they can pay the loan back', they have to one way or another.

freshpopcorn

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Is that what you do? Does it stress you out afterwards? Does it make life difficult in the months after Christmas a problem?

I'd consider these the question to ask.

Every situation is different. Clearly if buying loads of gifts causes financial strain then yes, it is a problem. I know of people who have become depressed over it and also feel the same sense of foreboding as Christmas approahes because they know it will be a financial strain that will have implications for months. Clearly the answer is don't buy so much, but how can they not provide the level if what they did the previous year? Tell their kids there is a recession in Lapland?

If someone takes out a loan for Christmas, can pay it back with little emotional stress to themselves and their family afterwards then of course, where is the problem? It's the others, those with limited means that don't want to let their kids down that are the ones with a problem.

For a lot of people, debt is a highly stressful situation, for those who it isn't, then no problem is there.

I get you now. In my posts I was referring to people who could pay back the money and didn't mind taking out the loan.

wexandproud

weadick wrote: »

It's amazing how the tradition of Santa Claus has lasted so long given how un PC it is; an old bearded man climbing into kids bedrooms during the night and emptying his bulging red sack...

of all the posts on here , many of different opinion , there eventually had to be someone who had to bring a perverted way of thinking into it

nozzferrahhtoo

Azalea wrote: »

I meant in general but I can see how you would interpret it as personal and I apologise.

The constant talk about atheists and believers is ludicrous too IMO - it's not even relevant.

It did seem personal. Apologies if that was the wrong way to parse it. Similarly I have not talked much about believers and atheists either. So I find myself wondering therefore why you are using my posts as a spring board to complain about others. If you have an issue with people talking about atheists, believers, or taking themselves too seriously.... perhaps it would be less confusing (for me at least) if you take it up with them directly?

Azalea wrote: »

All I'm saying is, I simply cannot understand why a person would tell their child who believes in Santa that there is no such thing when the child is only five or six.

I am not sure I have ever told my child there is no Santa. Rather I never told that there is one, never introduced the concept, and never employed it either as a tool of fun or as a tool or coercion and discipline. It simply is not a subject that has come out of my mouth.

I have no issue... at all... with people who do do the Santa thing. I do not judge them or look down on them. But the same can not be said in return on threads like this were multiple times people who do not do the Santa thing were called mean, or harsh, or that they were ruining the spirit of christmas.... and so on and so on. So I took issue with those posts.

Azalea wrote: »

I simply cannot recall being made aware of *any* person being damaged by the Santa lie.

Anecdotal only I have heard of a few issues. Mainly in the form of loss of trust in the parental figure for lying all that long. But the anecdotes are few. I am not one going around the thread espousing that the Santa thing is damaging. All I have really said is that it is not something I feel like doing, especially as I strive towards an ideal of only using deception and lies when it is absolutely necessary or warranted.

I would guess however it depends on how you measure damage. The goal I strive towards is, to steal the phrase of someone else, to install the app of Critical Thinking early on their neck-tops. As I believe the earlier you do so the better. But at this time I see no real way to measure the benefit of that, or the harm of not doing that, so I merely strive towards that goal because it genuinely feels like the right thing to do.

Azalea wrote: »

To me it's like imposing a more mature person's worldview on a little kid. It seems so harsh.

That would be the kind of thinking I would take issue with. There is nothing harsh about it. As I said in an earlier post, I think too many people subscribe to the notion..... whether they believe it or not...... that to stimulate the imagination and awe and love of magic in a child..... that somehow they need to BELIEVE the thing you are using to do so.

And it simply _is_ _not_ _true_. I.... like another user I remember reading on this subject on boards but I can not seem to find their post not..... find that when I really really get deep into the imaginary world or games of my daughter it is her.... not me at all.... that occasionally stops and says "Oh daddy you know this is all pretend don't you?". Yet she too was massively deep into the game and imagination and letting it take her where it would.

Which demonstrates to me what I said above..... children can go deep into a very stimulating and very fulfilling world of imagination and magic and fiction and fantasy.... without losing sight of where reality ends and imagination begins. There is no reason to have to sell them any fiction as being "true" to achieve this.

I have seen kids watching magic shows too. Some of them thought the magic was real. Some of them knew it was illusion. Yet the latter were no less invested in it or awed by it then the others. Quite the opposite, because they had the ADDED mental stimulation and enjoyment of trying to spot how the trick was done, rather than blindly sitting there and accepting it all to be "magic".

Azalea wrote: »

It's just living a story - no different to letting children believe in fairies or magic, via books and television programmes.

But again that is the thing. DO we let them believe those things? And whether we do or not.... DO they believe them? I have seen no sign that they do. I think the opposite.... that they know what is fiction and what is not much of the time.... and it takes away not a jot from the enjoyment we would want them to derive from it.

Azalea wrote: »

Which is worse - to tell them a lie for six or seven Christmases that creates so much excitement and joy for them, or to upset them with the truth at the height of their belief?

I go with the third choice, which you did not present but which you can surely guess at by this stage in my post. I chose to create ample and copious excitement and joy without recourse to selling fantasy as reality. And sure, as a parent it is WORK. There is more of an investment of time and resources in doing it rather than bringing pre-packaged concepts to bear to make it easier. But I find, for me and my family at least.... I will let others speak for their (Robin already did above I note)..... this is both more stimulating AND more fulfilling.

Azalea wrote: »

I'm just wondering how being the odd one out is dealt with

Now that IS some dangerous thinking. You brought up atheists and believers earlier in the post. Think of the parallels. Imagine you were an atheist family and believers started telling you "Well you live in a catholic dominated society.... how COULD you not sell Catholicism to your children in order to simply conform and not make them the odd one out?". That kind of guilt tripping is of no interest to me by far.

But to allay your fears somewhat I have seen no sign my child has suffered anything for the "odd one out" nature of it. But she does fall into the language of it. While displaying copious knowledge of the fact all the gifts at Christmas come from the parents, she will still occasionally fall into the cultural language of it and refer to the "coming of Santa" or "The presents that Santa will bring".

Which is quite common in our culture, even in adults. We fall into the language use of the masses, even when we do not subscribe to what is behind those words. You will even find entire groups of Atheists saying "Happy Christmas" to each other without caring for the religious nature of that phrase.... in the same way as I might say "Goodbye" to you without caring it means "God be with you".

Azalea wrote: »

Do the children wonder why other children have Santa and they don't?

Actually one of the things (anecdotally again sorry) I recall my friends in college saying when this subject came up was subtly different. None of the ones that did not do the Santa thing thought like you fear here.

But of the ones that DID do the Santa thing there was quite some economic disparity. And those children on the poorer end did wonder why other children got more presents, or higher quality presents, than they did. And it left them genuinely feeling quite bad. Guilty even. Sure that they had somehow not been deserving of Santa's attentions as much as the other kids.

There are parallels there to religion too. Clearly in a universe without a god, fortunes between people are going to vary. And I have met many subscribers to god beliefs who did their best to follow their god's standards and live a good life. But misfortune of various levels of horror did befall them.

And like the poorer Santa believers they were left with needless religious guilt. What had they done to displease their personal choice in god? Why had god "foresaken" them? What could they do better? And I have met many people who felt a weight lift off when they abandoned theistic and deistic notions as the world, and their misfortunes in it, made sense. There was no guilt to be had. It was not _their fault_. Crap happens sometimes.

kunst nugget

When we were younger, the presents were left in black sacks at the bottom of our bed. Everytime I open a black sack to put in the bin, I smell Christmas morning. Makes changing the bins a jolly job.

kunst nugget

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The goal I strive towards is, to steal the phrase of someone else, to install the app of Critical Thinking early on their neck-tops. As I believe the earlier you do so the better. But at this time I see no real way to measure the benefit of that, or the harm of not doing that, so I merely strive towards that goal because it genuinely feels like the right thing to do.

You can get that app on the playstore. Maybe Santa can get them it for Christmas…

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.drivence.critical_thinking_basic&hl=en

Alf Veedersane

kunst nugget wrote: »

When we were younger, the presents were left in black sacks at the bottom of our bed. Everytime I open a black sack to put in the bin, I smell Christmas morning. Makes changing the bins a jolly job.

I have a job for you...

kunst nugget

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I have a job for you...

Will it be full of the magic of Christmas?

The Bishop Basher

Santa was one of the best lessons in critical thinking I had as a child.

I don't ever remember fully buying into the concept. Too much of the story didn't add up. I was constantly questioning it and while i did feel brief disappointment when I saw my father leaving out the presents at the age of 7, (I had wanted to believe), there was also a sense of relief that my reasoning was correct all along. It was an important step in learning to have confidence in my reason and to trust my gut.

Terrlock

I don't know what's wrong with all you folks, Satan is real.

meeeeh

Do some people really think so little of their kids that they think a bit of pretending that Sana exists will damage their ability of critical thinkig? I have no fears like that about mine.

Anyway I don't care weather kids do Santa or not. We do it although I wasn't raised in that tradition (we had a bit different almost Rambo style tradition around St. Nicholas on 5 th of December where we were given presents and have pretend devils chase us). It's a bit of fun not some ideological battleground.

SAMTALK

meeeeh wrote: »

Do some people really think so little of their kids that they think a bit of pretending that Sana exists will damage their ability of critical thinkig? I have no fears like that about mine.

Anyway I don't care weather kids do Santa or not. We do it although I wasn't raised in that tradition (we had a bit different almost Rambo style tradition around St. Nicholas on 5 th of December where we were given presents and have pretend devils Chase us).

My son encountered this last weekend on a school trip to Austria and found it fasinating

nozzferrahhtoo

kunst nugget wrote: »

You can get that app on the playstore. Maybe Santa can get them it for Christmas…

Would that the Human Brain were compatible with the App Store(s).

kunst nugget

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Would that the Human Brain were compatible with the App Store(s).

We'd have a load of psychotic people throwing birds at pigs.

meeeeh

SAMTALK wrote: »

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My son encountered this last weekend on a school trip to Austria and found it fasinating

It's very weird and hard to explain but we really liked it. I think it's a bit less rough nowadays than it was in my time.

nozzferrahhtoo

meeeeh wrote: »

Do some people really think so little of their kids that they think a bit of pretending that Sana exists will damage their ability of critical thinkig? I have no fears like that about mine.

I think you over simplify what has been said and that makes it sound more ridiculous than it is. What was said, by me at least, is that there is a feeling that instilling critical thinking early over all could be beneficial.

And it is nothing about thinking little of your kids. Take for example just how vast a majority theists are in the world. Yet there is not a shred of an iota of Argument, Evidence, Data and Reasoning on offer from anyone to suggest there even is a god.

And when you talk to many of this vast majority about god belief or the existence of god, you may as well be playing "Fallacy Bingo" for the egregious nonsense they espouse. So I think one could be forgiven, without unwarranted accusations of thinking little of yours kids, for wishing to inoculate early against nonsense. And if the over all attempt means skipping doing the Santa thing as a small side consequence.... I am good with that.

The Bishop Basher

With so much anecdotal evidence on here I had a look to see what studies have been conducted on the subject. Seems there's quite a few and the overall consensus would support the view that children are more then capable of making important distinctions between beliefs in fantasy characters and beliefs in other unseen, but scientifically-established, entities (Harris et al 2006).

The evidence also suggests that it's actually the parents who feel the majority of the disappointment when the kids find out while the kids themselves go on about their lives unperturbed and confident in the knowledge that they can trust their powers of reasoning....

This would match my own experience.

Another point made here was that the kids would feel betrayed by the lies. Again, this is not supported by the evidence...

"John Condry's dissertation research included interviews with hundreds of kids, and none of them reported feeling angry at their parents when they found out the truth about Easter and Christmas (Condry 1987).

So it seems parents are far more concerned about all this then the kids are. We just over complicate the whole thing. We've even manged to bring politics and theology into the discussion..

All they want is a bit of magic and fun. My own view is that there'll be plenty of time for them to bore themselves with our hangups later in life...

For now, we should just let them be kids. Whether that includes Santa or not will be irrelevant to them later in life... But for those who get to believe, there is that extra little bit of magic for those few short years...

http://www.parentingscience.com/Easter-Bunny-and-Santa-Claus.html

TheChizler

Swanner wrote: »

"John Condry's dissertation research included interviews with hundreds of kids, and none of them reported feeling angry at their parents when they found out the truth about Easter and Christmas (Condry 1987).

What's the truth about Easter?

Edit: The Easter Bunny is a thing??? :eek:

meeeeh

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I think you over simplify what has been said and that makes it sound more ridiculous than it is. What was said, by me at least, is that there is a feeling that instilling critical thinking early over all could be beneficial.

And it is nothing about thinking little of your kids. Take for example just how vast a majority theists are in the world. Yet there is not a shred of an iota of Argument, Evidence, Data and Reasoning on offer from anyone to suggest there even is a god.

And when you talk to many of this vast majority about god belief or the existence of god, you may as well be playing "Fallacy Bingo" for the egregious nonsense they espouse. So I think one could be forgiven, without unwarranted accusations of thinking little of yours kids, for wishing to inoculate early against nonsense. And if the over all attempt means skipping doing the Santa thing as a small side consequence.... I am good with that.

I had all the Catholic upbringing with different traditions and still managed to end up being atheist. I must be pretty special. Or maybe I am just not spiritual person.

I think people sometimes take themselves and religion or lack of it way too seriously. Have fun with your little battles but don't think that lack of Santa is making your kids any better or smarter.

The Bishop Basher

TheChizler wrote: »

What's the truth about Easter?

Edit: The Easter Bunny is a thing??? :eek:

Phew !! Thought I was going to have to ruin Easter on you for a minute there :-)

We didnt get the Easter bunny till we were about 6. It was only when we heard about it from other kids that we asked could we have it too. Did we believe, not a chance, but we sure as hell enjoyed scoffing the eggs on Easter morning.

SAMTALK

meeeeh wrote: »

It's very weird and hard to explain but we really liked it. I think it's a bit less rough nowadays than it was in my time.

I must tell them that!! Some of them found it rough enough and werent that comfortable but I think it was just the unknown to be be honest.
Great experience for them

TheChizler

Swanner wrote: »

Phew !! Thought I was going to have to ruin Easter on you for a minute there :-)

I'm genuinely shocked, parents tell kids that a rabbit goes around delivering chocolate eggs? And kids believe it??? At least Santa has a whole back story and support network.

Actually I'm reminded of staying with my granny for my summer holidays on an island in West Cork, if we left our shoes in the kitchen overnight the Sweet Fairies that lived in the rushes by the beach would leave mini tubes of fruit pastilles in them. I was incredibly invested in that!

nozzferrahhtoo

Swanner wrote: »

All they want is a bit of magic and fun.

And as I keep pointing out, those children who are not sold lies as realities.... are not by any default precluded magic or fun. Sometimes quite the opposite.

meeeeh wrote: »

I had all the Catholic upbringing with different traditions and still managed to end up being atheist.

Sure, that does not take away from anything I said though. You are one of the exceptions in a world where Theists are by far dominant.

meeeeh wrote: »

I must be pretty special. Or maybe I am just not spiritual person.

Without knowing you I would not care to say. Perhaps it is both, perhaps it is neither. With any infection some people are simply immune, while others have been inoculated, while others recover. There are rarely useful patterns to be found in single cases.

meeeeh wrote: »

but don't think that lack of Santa is making your kids any better or smarter.

Don't think I suggested any such thing, anywhere, ever.

meeeeh

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And as I keep pointing out, those children who are not sold lies as realities.... are not by any default precluded magic or fun. Sometimes quite the opposite.



Sure, that does not take away from anything I said though. You are one of the exceptions in a world where Theists are by far dominant.

I am not one of the few. Most of us got religious education around primary school, by high school the believers were at about 50% and in my studies (some sort of arts) I know of nobody. There were more doing technical sciences. How many theists are in South America has very little to do with environment I grew up in.

nozzferrahhtoo

meeeeh wrote: »

I am not one of the few.

This is probably the last thread to derail into a discussion on relative quantities of atheists and theists in the world. But when I said "few" I mean merely relative to the number of people who claim to be religious in this country.

How many people actually ARE religious however is a good conversation but probably not one to have here. My point still stands from earlier. There is a vast number of religious people in the world, so I make no apologies for any attempts I make to inoculate my children early against any such infections, in any way I can.

The Bishop Basher

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And as I keep pointing out, those children who are not sold lies as realities.... are not by any default precluded magic or fun. Sometimes quite the opposite.

I never said they are.

But the kids that believe in Santa do get to experience an extra piece of magic around Christmas.

kunst nugget

Swanner wrote: »

I never said they are.

But the kids that believe in Santa do get to experience an extra piece of magic around Christmas.

I spike their hot milk with LSD just to make it more magical.

nozzferrahhtoo

Swanner wrote: »

I never said they are. But the kids that believe in Santa do get to experience an extra piece of magic around Christmas.

What you said in the context of Santa was that all they want is magic and fun. I am merely pointing out that this can be just as attainable without. "Extra" would be erroneous here. "Different" would be more correct. I have no reason to think Santa kids are having any more or less magic and fun in their life than mine for example. It just takes a different form.

The Bishop Basher

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

What you said in the context of Santa was that all they want is magic and fun. I am merely pointing out that this can be just as attainable without. "Extra" would be erroneous here. "Different" would be more correct. I have no reason to think Santa kids are having any more or less magic and fun in their life than mine for example. It just takes a different form.

Ok. So what do you do to create the magic for your kids without Santa ?

nozzferrahhtoo

Swanner wrote: »

Ok. So what do you do to create the magic for your kids without Santa ?

Too much to mention on this thread, and very much off topic given the subject of the thread is Santa. So I will have to be brief. At least by my usual standards

But suffice to say I do anything and everything I can to engage their imagination and desire for awe and magic. Ongoing and not just at Christmas. Through games, stories, magic, fiction, fantasy, roleplay, and science.

For example since buying this book here for my daughter we daily play an "I wonder" game where we sit and think about things neither of us no the answers to and we fantasize about the possible answers, some plausible and some just playful nonsense. And the point of the book is to learn to know it is ok to say "I do not know" as well.

The eyes of Children almost invariably light up wide when you do magic tricks for them too. So I like doing that by learning magic or showing them some. But my daughter knows it is illusion too so I enjoy the intellectual part AFTER the magic too, where we both try to guess how the trick was done. So she enjoys the tricks as much as any child that watches magic and believes it to be magic but then has the secondary fun of the intellectual pursuit of trying to unpack the explanation for it.

The list goes on. And on. As I say too much to mention here. But at no point have I ever thought my choice not to sell any part of the magic and fantasy as "real" has taken away from the fun, the enjoyment, the magic, or the awe of any of it.