Should clubs be patient or ruthless with managers?

SlickRic

According to some reports (not particularly reliable yet), Garry Monk could lose his job within the next 48 hours. It stems from rumoured sentiments from the chairman that 'something has to change'.

This is a few mere months after he brought the club to their highest ever points total.

Chelsea seem to be sticking by Mourinho after he helped them win the title, last year, despite a disaster of a start to the season.

Liverpool fired Brendan Rodgers (albeit for an obvious upgrade), a year after he was manager as the club almost won the League.

Manchester City seem to be sticking resolutely with Manuel Pellegrini despite winning nothing last season, and having a less than inspiring start to this season (despite being close to the top of the league).

Many United fans are calling for LVG's head, despite being in the top 4.

Arsene Wenger is being persisted with despite not winning a League in over a decade, and never looking like winning the Champions League either.

Rafa Benitez is looking fragile in the Madrid job despite not exactly being out of the race for any of the major titles on offer yet.

Luis Enrique could've been sacked, conceivably, months before his team won the treble, and now the current Barcelona team is being lauded as one of the greatest attacking units ever.

Every club seems to have a different way of going about things, while clubs also seem to have evolved in how they handle managers. Liverpool used to rarely be a sacking club, but now don't seem to be adverse to doing it if it appears to be needed. Moyes was sacked after a year, despite Fergie getting years at the start of his reign.

Should clubs err on the side of patience?
Or should they, in this modern football world where money and success are everything, be completely unafraid to pull the trigger on a manager early?

callaway92

Patience is 100% needed.

Saipanne

It depends. Often the trouble with clubs is the board, and therefore it doesn't matter who you appoint or how long you keep them there. Newcastle are a prime example, as are Villa.

But if we assume a decent board, then I think clubs should be patient.

redzerdrog

I think it can only ever be based on a case by case basis, I would have been a strong advocate of patients but then Roy Hodgson happened

Flint Fredstone

Van Gaal and Moyes aren't a million miles away when you look at their records on paper but even if Van Gaal matched him point for point, goal for goal, I would be inclined to give Van Gaal more time whereas I feel Moyes got too much time.

Each situation is different as there are so many factors to be taken into account.

Oat23

The guardian had this article a few days ago on this topic. It is about Freiburg & Christian Streich if anyone is interested.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/englische-woche/2015/dec/03/sc-freiburg-bundesliga-germany-manager

Big difference between relegation from the PL and relegation from the BL of course.

Very hard to pin this down generically as Flint stated each club is radically different. The main reason for this is probably Club funding / Expectancy.

Sacking Gary Monk is a mistake IMO as he's hit a bad run of form but has done so much for Swansea last season with not alot of resources and the fact they lost so many players but they still finished 8th. Bit of common sense and patience required.

topmanamillion

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Van Gaal and Moyes aren't a million miles away when you look at their records on paper but even if Van Gaal matched him point for point, goal for goal, I would be inclined to give Van Gaal more time whereas I feel Moyes got too much time.

Each situation is different as there are so many factors to be taken into account.

Moyes ended up inheriting an aging squad which needed complete rebuilding without the benefit of a massive budget. I think he was hard done by.
Where as Van Gael has had the benefit of 300million pound plus and his record isn't 300million pound plus better than Moyes'.
Alot of the time managers are scape goats. The successful ones generally have luck on their side combined with skill.
Take Mournino, whatever about his questionable character, very few would argue he's not a very good manager. But look at when he won the champions league at Porto, he had players there who went on to have fabulous careers like Deco and Carvaliho.
Now look at him this season, he won the league last season, has he really become a bad manager over night or are there other factors?
Another famous example is Ferguson when he started out at United. In 1990, he was an FA cup game away from getting the sack. Now a bounce of a ball or an O.G and Uniteds past would look a whole lot different.
Alot of the time a new manager gives a club a lift but the longterm benefits aren't very clear. Now people say Keane made a pigs ear of Ipswich. But they haven't gotten promoted since he left and are in a similar situation to when he was there.

Harry Palmr

Patient - is Sam Alardyce available? NO
Impatient - is Sam Alardyce available? YES

gosplan

Impatience ftw. People hardly ever turn things around.

CSF

Each case on its merits. You don't want to be changing managers every time you go 5 games without a win, but you also don't want to be relegated because you didn't stop the rot in time.

A lot depends on the dressing room. I'm not an expert on the goings on behind the scenes at Swansea but I've seen nothing to suggest that Swansea's form has resulted from the players no longer wanting to play for Monk. In contrast to the situation at Chelsea where Mourinho seems to have completely lost the run of things.

Potential Underachiever

redzerdrog wrote: »

I think it can only ever be based on a case by case basis, I would have been a strong advocate of patients but then Roy Hodgson happened

Yup, was obvious that Roy would be an early casualty.

Rodgers back at the helm?

Riesen_Meal

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Rodgers back at the helm?

For Chelsea, maybe...

He could be lethal with Chelsea... (unfortunately)

RoboKlopp

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Rodgers back at the helm?

Bookies seem to think so

Paully D

I think at the bottom end of the table being ruthless is certainly the way to go. For example, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Sunderland would have been relegated under O'Neill, Di Canio and Poyet and most likely under Steve Bruce too.

When I talk football with mates etc they'll often say to me that it is a joke how quickly we go through managers, but my counter argument is that it's obvious to anyone with football knowledge that those teams were going to be relegated and patience just wasn't the answer, so why not roll the dice and try to get a bit of a kick from a new manager? You're going down if you don't make the change, but perhaps the change will result in survival. Rolling the dice has worked 4 times in a row - coincidence?

It's much easier for clubs at the other end of the table to be patient.

LuckyLloyd

Context is everything

Super-Rush

The fact that he seemingly wasn't given even half of the Bony transfer fee to spend didn't help him much.

Richard Hillman

Management is a short term game. If you do not look like you are going to achieve anything after about 18 months, get somebody else.

Giving a manager "time" has rarely worked out ever.

Lamper.sffc

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Management is a short term game. If you do not look like you are going to achieve anything after about 18 months, get somebody else.

Giving a manager "time" has rarely worked out ever.

Giving the right manager time works out all the time

LuckyLloyd

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

Giving the right manager time works out all the time

Throw us out some examples there

cson

Paully D wrote: »

I think at the bottom end of the table being ruthless is certainly the way to go. For example, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Sunderland would have been relegated under O'Neill, Di Canio and Poyet and most likely under Steve Bruce too.

When I talk football with mates etc they'll often say to me that it is a joke how quickly we go through managers, but my counter argument is that it's obvious to anyone with football knowledge that those teams were going to be relegated and patience just wasn't the answer, so why not roll the dice and try to get a bit of a kick from a new manager? You're going down if you don't make the change, but perhaps the change will result in survival. Rolling the dice has worked 4 times in a row - coincidence?

It's much easier for clubs at the other end of the table to be patient.

Agree 100%

Look at Southampton (Adkins) and Leicester (Pearson) as super examples of being ruthless.

Lamper.sffc

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Throw us out some examples there

Quickly off the top of my head Alex Ferguson at united and Moyes at Everton.

edit: Oh and Martin O'Neil

CSF

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

Quickly off the top of my head Alex Ferguson at united and Moyes at Everton.

edit: Oh and Martin O'Neil

Problem is, you're having to stretch a long way back to get those examples. Illustrating that it's not the most frequent.

Saipanne

CSF wrote: »

Problem is, you're having to stretch a long way back to get those examples. Illustrating that it's not the most frequent.

Moyes at Everton is a long stretch?

Also Wenger. He's at a club expected to be challenging for titles, and went a long time without a trophy.

Lamper.sffc

CSF wrote: »

Problem is, you're having to stretch a long way back to get those examples. Illustrating that it's not the most frequent.

Yep. Managers just dont get the time now.

CSF

Saipanne wrote: »

Moyes at Everton is a long stretch?

Also Wenger. He's at a club expected to be challenging for titles, and went a long time without a trophy.

Moyes being bad at Everton and being kept on is a good while ago, probably 10 years?

Lamper.sffc

Saipanne wrote: »

Moyes at Everton is a long stretch?

Also Wenger. He's at a club expected to be challenging for titles, and went a long time without a trophy.

I guess it all depends on what is classed as success. I guarantee you that the majority of Everton fans where sorry at Moyes departure.

Wenger did go a long time without a trophy and then he won one. Who is to say anyone they could get would do a better job. No way of knowing really.

edit: Well until he gets the sack or leaves

Lamper.sffc

CSF wrote: »

Moyes being bad at Everton and being kept on is a good while ago, probably 10 years?

He also had a tendancy to start seasons very bad and then have an incredible run in the second half of the season. If this had happened under certain owners he would have got the sack.

MrKingsley

As Paully D said if its a choice between 90 pc relegation or giving the club a fighting chance to stay up then you have to go for someone who could give the team a lift.........however this cant be a positive thing for the long term stability of the club(other than the money from the EPL)

Another thing that is rarely discussed regarding this topic is how, in general, managers roles have changed over the past decade.

Directors of football are commonplace and it is rarely the managers job to identify, negotiate and sign players. Because of this boards throughout the EPL are looking for head coaches to prepare the players solely for on field results. If the head coach cant get these results after a year of working with the players then for the most part it is pretty clear that the club would be better off looking elsewhere.

SlickRic

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

I guess it all depends on what is classed as success. I guarantee you that the majority of Everton fans where sorry at Moyes departure.

I think you'd actually be surprised at how many of them were delighted when he left.

dfx-

Paully D wrote: »

I think at the bottom end of the table being ruthless is certainly the way to go. For example, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Sunderland would have been relegated under O'Neill, Di Canio and Poyet and most likely under Steve Bruce too.

When I talk football with mates etc they'll often say to me that it is a joke how quickly we go through managers, but my counter argument is that it's obvious to anyone with football knowledge that those teams were going to be relegated and patience just wasn't the answer, so why not roll the dice and try to get a bit of a kick from a new manager? You're going down if you don't make the change, but perhaps the change will result in survival. Rolling the dice has worked 4 times in a row - coincidence?

It's much easier for clubs at the other end of the table to be patient.

The problem is that you're left with a mish-mash of players signed by multiple managers so you're condemned to keep being relegation bound. Sunderland at the start of the season is a case in point.

What Sunderland shows is that they are making the wrong appointment over and over again.

DarraghF197

CSF wrote: »

Problem is, you're having to stretch a long way back to get those examples. Illustrating that it's not the most frequent.

How about Benitez for Real Madrid. Ancellotti was a great manager I thought when he was there, and look where they are now. Players are getting disgruntled, Barcelona thrashed them and PSG should have easily won against as well. They can beat Malmo by several goals all they like but those scoreless are irrelevant.

England? Moyes could have done well at Utd, Van Gaal isn't doing better than him after spending a few hundred million. How about Tottenham? Every time they hire a new manager, they finish one place lower than their previous position.

CSF

DarraghF197 wrote: »

How about Benitez for Real Madrid. Ancellotti was a great manager I thought when he was there, and look where they are now. Players are getting disgruntled, Barcelona thrashed them and PSG should have easily won against as well. They can beat Malmo by several goals all they like but those scoreless are irrelevant.

England? Moyes could have done well at Utd, Van Gaal isn't doing better than him after spending a few hundred million. How about Tottenham? Every time they hire a new manager, they finish one place lower than their previous position.

What is Benitez an example of? I don't think many would disagree that sacking Ancelotti to replace with Rafa was pretty much insanity.