40% would prefer non-Christian school - Equate Ireland

Zamboni

So there is another group now set up to campaign for equality in education.
There are so many groups and campaigns now it is all a bit muddled - but it shows the sheer momentum on this topic now!


Article on survey
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1209/752253-religion-in-schools/

Website
http://www.equateireland.ie/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/equateireland/?fref=ts

Kidchameleon

Diarmuid Martin is on board too...

http://www.businesspost.ie/parents-have-right-to-choose-non-religious-schools-diarmuid-martin/

Nodin

Intelligent young woman on this morning on RTE on the same subject. "For balance" they had on David Quinn. When she talked about the Tyranny of the majority his back went up straight away. Not that he nessecarily understood the concept.

Fleawuss

The divestment proposal of you can have that, we'll keep this is flawed and this survey points to why. It can't be left to a lottery of where you get a house or flat to decide on your education for your kids, religious education or non religious as you wish. The country can't afford multiple local services be they schools or whatever. A serious accommodation is needed: a local school which teaches a curriculum that by definition does not exclude and also allows faith formation at a time at start or end of the day for all religions. The religions and non religions can be accommodated: it will require real leadership to deliver.

Cabaal

Why waste school resources at all on religion? , we already have countless religious buildings and workers who are underused around the country.

Leave religion out of school and get parents to just bring their kids to school and make use of those many under used churches.

Attending a weekly religious service is generally an expected basic requirement for the majority of religions.

expectationlost

Zamboni wrote: »

So there is another group now set up to campaign for equality in education.
There are so many groups and campaigns now it is all a bit muddled - but it shows the sheer momentum on this topic now!


Article on survey
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1209/752253-religion-in-schools/

Website
http://www.equateireland.ie/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/equateireland/?fref=ts

where did this suddenly appear from
board Declan Ryan Ruairi Quinn TD: etc

what is it that Ruairi Quinn think he's going to do with @equateireland that he couldn't do as minister?

secular education has gotten its own rich benefactor Declan Ryan, now he gets to dictate what happens

Bristolscale7

Yeah, the group is a collection of political operatives. There's political capital to made from the issue now so they are seizing the moment.

What was Quinn's take on voting down the amendment last week?

Akrasia

Cabaal wrote: »

Why waste school resources at all on religion? , we already have countless religious buildings and workers who are underused around the country.

Leave religion out of school and get parents to just bring their kids to school and make use of those many under used churches.

Attending a weekly religious service is generally an expected basic requirement for the majority of religions.

Exactly

Hotblack Desiato

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

There's political capital to made from the issue now so they are seizing the moment.

Great! Even if Ireland really was 'a catholic country' or if the 84% figure from the census bore any relation to reality rather than wishful thinking or a cultural relic, it wouldn't make the current situation fair or just.

Over 30% of marriages are now civil marriages, these parents and future parents are unlikely to want religious instruction for their kids in school. Those who got married in a church only because it looks nice or they wanted to keep the inlaws happy are fairly unlikely to also. Many don't get married at all which hardly indicates an adherence to RC (or CoI) doctrines, apart from the big days out.

Ireland is rapidly becoming an increasingly less religiously observant society. Nobody should be forced to have their children instructed in a religion against their wishes (an explicit constitutional right) and nobody should be discriminated against in school enrolment on grounds of religion (a stated constitutional right also, yet laws permitting this remain on the statute books.) This is simply not compatible with religious ethos schools dominating the state-funded education system.

Hotblack Desiato

Fleawuss wrote: »

The divestment proposal of you can have that, we'll keep this is flawed and this survey points to why. It can't be left to a lottery of where you get a house or flat to decide on your education for your kids, religious education or non religious as you wish. The country can't afford multiple local services be they schools or whatever. A serious accommodation is needed: a local school which teaches a curriculum that by definition does not exclude and also allows faith formation at a time at start or end of the day for all religions. The religions and non religions can be accommodated: it will require real leadership to deliver.

The only fair and just and economical way to proceed is to have secular education as the norm. Any other solution will cause injustice and waste money.

Cabaal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Over 30% of marriages are now civil marriages, these parents and future parents are unlikely to want religious instruction for their kids in school.

Spot on,
I got married in a church, set all along it was completely meaningless to me...including to the priest. Even said it on the wedding day to a few people.

Truth be told it was to keep the mother in law happy,
But any children we have will never ever be baptised, it just won't happen no matter how much crap it causes.

So using catholic wedding stats is by no means a accurate way of working out who wants a catholic ethos school either.

I know of a number of people that hated the whole communion thing but did it because it was part of the school year and they didn't want their children left out....this is the wrong reason to do communion and it devalues the catholic church,

I know of one 8 year old who's only reason for doing communion is for the money...I know cause he told me outright. He rolls his eye's at the nonsense at mass but is sticking it out purely for the money.

I'd wager that most kids given the choice between a communion day and money or Disney land and money would pick Disney land any day of the week. Doesn't say much for the belief in Jebus.

Those who got married in a church only because it looks nice or they wanted to keep the inlaws happy are fairly unlikely to also. Many don't get married at all which hardly indicates an adherence to RC (or CoI) doctrines, apart from the big days out.

Indeed, 40% of children born in the state in 2013 were born to unwed mothers...something that would have resulted in alot of these women being thrown into mother and baby homes in the 1950's.

Hardly in-line with Catholic teachings and I've come across even the local priest refusing to baptise a child belong to a unwed mother so its evident that the negative view towards unwed mothers exists. The scary thing is this same priest is involved in the local primary school
:rolleyes:

Custardpi

Like it or not one of the reasons why the Catholic Church maintains its cultural grip on Irish education is because of stuff like Communion & Confirmation ceremonies. Even if many participants don't take them as seriously as true believers would like the fact is that people like a sense of ceremony, they like celebrating milestones (however arbitrary) in their children's lives & they like an excuse to put on their finery. That's true whether whether we're speaking of Catholics making Confirmation, Jews celebrating Bar Mitzvahs, young Amazonian tribesmen getting their lips pierced etc etc etc.
A secular education system will have to figure out a way to beat this attraction, possibly by coming up with new things to celebrate, replacing the old fairy tales or at least existing alongside them for those parents who still genuinely want a religious element to their offspring's education. A primary graduation ceremony perhaps?

gctest50

Custardpi wrote: »

..........
A secular education system will have to figure out a way to beat this attraction, possibly by coming up with new things to celebrate.............

could celebrate not believing in sky-fairies any more ?


don't know why it can't be like France :

“Vallie went to school in France. There you just go to the local school. It’s completely secular. If parents want their children to do religious education, they go to Sunday school or private schools. "

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-in-school-she-feels-excluded-and-different-1.2462201

Bristolscale7

I got married in a registry office over ten years ago. A few friends of my partner's mother, surprised to be in a registry office, were heard whispering "Does he have any children from his previous marriage?"

Hotblack Desiato

Custardpi wrote: »

A secular education system will have to figure out a way to beat this attraction, possibly by coming up with new things to celebrate

Why? It'd be nothing to do with the school any more than non-catholic ceremonies of children attending RC schools are anything to do with that school today.

My son had a graduation ceremony from his preschool :pac: mortarboard and robe and scroll photo and all!

Custardpi

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Why? It'd be nothing to do with the school any more than non-catholic ceremonies of children attending RC schools are anything to do with that school today.

My son had a graduation ceremony from his preschool :pac: mortarboard and robe and scroll photo and all!

Very simple. The Communion/Confirmation ceremonies have been an integral part of Irish education for the vast majority of people since the foundation of the state & probably a good bit before that too. Changing this might well be a perfectly sensible, logical & beneficial thing to do but getting rid of longstanding traditions or changng the way in which they're celebrated is much easier said than done, not least because of inertia.

Hotblack Desiato

Custardpi wrote: »

Very simple. The Communion/Confirmation ceremonies have been an integral part of Irish education for the vast majority of people since the foundation of the state & probably a good bit before that too. Changing this might well be a perfectly sensible, logical & beneficial thing to do but getting rid of longstanding traditions or changng the way in which they're celebrated is much easier said than done, not least because of inertia.

They will still be free to do that, just prepare for it outside of school hours, just as ET pupils can do today.

Custardpi

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They will still be free to do that, just prepare for it outside of school hours, just as ET pupils can do today.

True, but moving that preparation out of the schools on a larger scale will mean the setting up of new structures, as well as greater participation from parents & a willingness on the part of kids to attend extra classes. Far easier to keep nodding along to the current system. Changing people's longstanding habits & traditions is incredibly difficult, no matter how much sense such a change might make.

Pherekydes

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I got married in a registry office over ten years ago. A few friends of my partner's mother, surprised to be in a registry office, were heard whispering "Does he have any children from his previous marriage?"

Hehe. Our kids were at our registry office wedding. Hers, mine and ours.

Shrap

Pherekydes wrote: »

Hehe. Our kids were at our registry office wedding. Hers, mine and ours.

Same here, all three of them Husband's son was a witness. Youngest (our's) took the best photos of the whole day, from under the main table! Getting divorced now though....not that this is a reflection on civil marriage!

realdanbreen

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I got married in a registry office over ten years ago. A few friends of my partner's mother, surprised to be in a registry office, were heard whispering "Does he have any children from his previous marriage?"

Do you have a husband and a partner?

Hotblack Desiato

realdanbreen wrote: »

Do you have a husband and a partner?

If said conversation took place before the wedding... then no she had no husband at that time :rolleyes:

c montgomery

40% would prefer and 60% would not.
Majority rules, come back when your at 50.1 %

Hotblack Desiato

Majority rule crushing minority rights isn't democracy, it's fascism.

PopePalpatine

c montgomery wrote: »

40% would prefer and 60% would not.
Majority rules, come back when your at 50.1 %

Thinly veiled "nyeh-nyeh-nyeh-nyeh, we still get to discriminate!" post.

PopePalpatine

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Majority rule crushing minority rights isn't democracy, it's fascism.

Absolam will be along shortly to engage in a turgid semantic debate.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Absolam will be along shortly to engage in a turgid semantic debate.

What do you mean by 'turgid' and 'semantic' and 'debate'? And 'shortly' and 'engage'?

frostyjacks

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Majority rule crushing minority rights isn't democracy, it's fascism.

It's not fascism, it's common sense. Run the schools along the lines that satisfy the wishes of the majority of parents. If a minority have a problem with that, then their free to start their own schools. The Muslims seem to do it without kicking up a fuss, why do atheists always have to play the victim card?

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not fascism, it's common sense. Run the schools along the lines that satisfy the wishes of the majority of parents. If a minority have a problem with that, then their free to start their own schools. The Muslims seem to do it without kicking up a fuss, why do atheists always have to play the victim card?

They aren't free to start their own schools, not if they want State funding. I've a letter from the Department stating that because all schools in our area provide enough places for all children living in the area no new schools will be funded.

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not fascism, it's common sense. Run the schools along the lines that satisfy the wishes of the majority of parents. If a minority have a problem with that, then their free to start their own schools. The Muslims seem to do it without kicking up a fuss, why do atheists always have to play the victim card?

Explain how it is common sense, for example where I grew up, to have a single Catholic school for a diverse local population?

And why does it then make sense to give priority to Catholic children over other children?

Hotblack Desiato

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not fascism, it's common sense.

So if the majority decided not to let non-catholics go to school at all, that'd be democracy too yeah?