40% would prefer non-Christian school - Equate Ireland

frostyjacks

Cabaal wrote: »

Faiths?
I think you'll find Catholic ethos schools teach a Catholic religion class. They do not spend for example half the year teaching about the Islamic faith.

It's evident there's no real education about other Faiths from the fact that the majority of Irish people are likely unaware that jebus is a prophet in the Islamic faith.

I doubt even less know about the story for the creation of the Mormon religion and beliefs behind it.

So don't lie and claim it's about education of different Faiths when it is for no such thing, jebus doesn't like a lier.

Why would they spend half the year on teaching Islam? I'm assuming they allocate time for learning about each religion based on our demographics. So we learn the basics of Islam, Judaism etc., but most of the time is spent learning about the religion of almost everyone in this country. It's common sense really.

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

Why would they spend half the year on teaching Islam? I'm assuming they allocate time for learning about each religion based on our demographics. So we learn the basics of Islam, Judaism etc., but most of the time is spent learning about the religion of almost everyone in this country. It's common sense really.

actually, it would be more sensible to have lessons about a topic/ritual (e.g. marriage).

Students could then compare and contrast the different faiths with regard to the topic/ritual.

There's no reason to structure the lessons to focus on one religion over the others.

MrPudding

robindch wrote: »

Your inability to see any problem, let alone sympathize, is farcical.

Banned.

MrP

techdiver

The major issue is here, is we need to be honest about what the situation is at the moment.

We do not have religious education in our schools. What we have is indoctrination. It is essentially state sponsored occult enrollment! It teaches make believe to children as fact. This is the major problem I have.

It is actually shocking how dumb mankind is when this stuff is even entertained. We have evolved **** all since the cave man.

Mary63

Who has been banned and why.

We actually don't want any time spent on religion at all,its far more important to concentrate on literacy and maths and any of us who have children in Catholic schools know for sure that very little religion is taught.

Its only atheists and non believers looking through the fence who think our children are spending half the day learning about the Immaculate conception.I wouldn't mind my children learning about that but not at the expense of learning to read and write proficiently.

I think Delirium that you should leave the school planning to the teaching staff,they are for the most part doing a very good job and most children are skipping happily to school every morning.

techdiver

Mary63 wrote: »

I think Delirium that you should leave the school planning to the teaching staff,they are for the most part doing a very good job and most children are skipping happily to school every morning.

What's that got to do with anything?

I was indoctrinated in school too and I was happy to go along with it because I knew no better. The problem is we don't produce enough free thinkers to shake that crap off in later life.

Religion does eat into the time that could be spent on more worthwhile subjects in school. This is a fact, not "delirium", as you put it!

Mary63

I think the main point for all of us is that our children are happy going to school,it is the most important thing for me anyway.

I wasn't indoctrinated in school,I can't remember what we did in religion class and I went to a convent school.I know we spent a lot of time collecting money for the "black babies",this is my only memory of anything vaguely to do with religion.

My children know nothing at all about Catholism even though they have spent eight years in the local Catholic school,they went to that school because we could walk to it.I doubt if they could even say the Hail Mary and they never came home with anything of a religious nature as part of homework.I don't know where you are getting this image of a cult mentality in our Junior Infants classes,I have been trotting up and down to our school since 1998 so I think I know more than people who either haven't applied to their catholic school or can't get a place because their children haven't been baptised.

You might think religion is "crap" tech driver but that doesn't mean it is and for lots of people religion is very meaningful,hence why we have so many full Catholic schools in every parish in the country.

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

Who has been banned and why.

We actually don't want any time spent on religion at all,its far more important to concentrate on literacy and maths and any of us who have children in Catholic schools know for sure that very little religion is taught.

Its only atheists and non believers looking through the fence who think our children are spending half the day learning about the Immaculate conception.I wouldn't mind my children learning about that but not at the expense of learning to read and write proficiently.

I think Delirium that you should leave the school planning to the teaching staff,they are for the most part doing a very good job and most children are skipping happily to school every morning.

Why? I pay my taxes.

Why should I rollover and accept religious discrimination towards non-Catholic children trying to get a place in a public shool?

All children (Catholic or not) deserver better.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

We actually don't want any time spent on religion at all,its far more important to concentrate on literacy and maths and any of us who have children in Catholic schools know for sure that very little religion is taught.

The Alive-o workbook comes home for homework *religiously* every week. It doesn't need to be even given to non-religious/other religious children and could easily be worked at during the new proposed timetabling. As could prayers. As could the practice for communion and confirmation.

Its only atheists and non believers looking through the fence who think our children are spending half the day learning about the Immaculate conception.I wouldn't mind my children learning about that but not at the expense of learning to read and write proficiently.

Well there's a point in there somewhere, but it's not for me to take. All faith formation is at the expense of the curriculum. Ask any teacher. And atheists are looking through the fence?! Don't make me laugh. This imaginary division between parents that you describe doesn't translate to real life. Why would a school consisting of 95% Catholic parents nominate me as the Chair of the PA and then the Parent's rep, if they thought my atheism had anything detrimental to add to my clarity of thought or my mediation skills? I can't even begin to tell you how many parents I drew in from outside "the fence" to examine how best we parents could help the teachers manage/fund/resource the school. You're dreaming Mary.

I think Delirium that you should leave the school planning to the teaching staff,they are for the most part doing a very good job and most children are skipping happily to school every morning.

Have you asked any school board how they would structure the "ethos" differently, if it was up to them and it didn't hold the "special place" that it currently has? I have. Their answer doesn't sit well with your theories on the subject.

techdiver

Mary63 wrote: »

You might think religion is "crap" tech driver but that doesn't mean it is and for lots of people religion is very meaningful,hence why we have so many full Catholic schools in every parish in the country.

The reason for so many full Catholic schools is the fact that they are, for the most part, the only game in town.

Education is still the only sacred cow in this country that is allowed to discriminate against children based on a fictional, made up belief system!

Delirium

techdiver wrote: »

Religion does eat into the time that could be spent on more worthwhile subjects in school. This is a fact, not "delirium", as you put it!

:D

Mary was referring to myself

techdiver

Delirium wrote: »

:D

Mary was referring to myself

Ah!

I win the idiot award today!

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

You might think religion is "crap" tech driver but that doesn't mean it is and for lots of people religion is very meaningful,hence why we have so many full Catholic schools in every parish in the country.

You are painfully obtuse here. We have so many full Catholic schools in every parish in the country because the likes of me either recognise the necessity of our children being educated with their peers, in their community, or have no place else to go.

Before I became Chair of the PA, the school was hemorrhaging families (even Catholic ones !) due to some serious issues. Now it's the fastest growing community school for an hour's drive around. The full school has sweet fcuk all to do with it's Catholic ethos.

robindch

Mary63 wrote: »

You might think religion is "crap" tech driver but that doesn't mean it is and for lots of people religion is very meaningful,hence why we have so many full Catholic schools in every parish in the country.

Sentences like the above mean that I have no idea whether Mary63 is trolling the forum or not

Mary63 - just to deal with the possibility, can you please confirm that you're being serious when you write things like the above?

Mary63

I couldn't be more serious robindch,the vast majority of parents couldn't careless about the ethos of the school,they are concerned about the size of the class,what the teachers are like,how many children are non national,if there are a lot of children who don't have english as their first language this will impact on my childs education so I will try and find out who my children's peers will be before I take up a place.I am not interested in welcoming waifs and strays,we can't afford them and if they have to be here I want them in the school up the road and not in my children's school.

I know every other parent in my children's school is of the same belief as me,we are thrilled with our school,we have bought so many extras,we even have an astro turf pitch,we have ensuite facilities,a great library,loads of computers and a very good library.

We are certainly not cribbing about the teaching of religion,we don't in fact know how much time is spent on learning it in school,we trust the teachers to have their priorities right and the priority is the academic stuff.

We have a lot of stress going on in our lives and we accept the things we can change,the things we can't and the wisdom to know the difference.

robindch

Mary63 wrote: »

I couldn't be more serious robindch [...]

Thanks for replying and confirming.

I'm asking because I don't believe the forum has ever hosted anybody who's been so completely unsympathetic to the reality of life in Irish schools for the kids of non-religious parents. Though while you don't sympathize with the discriminated kids or their parents, or even acknowledge it openly, you nonetheless seem quite happy to use this discrimination to benefit your kids, in your eyes at least. For me, that's a degree of cynicism which verges on the breathtaking - no doubt you disagree.

Mary63 wrote: »

We are certainly not cribbing about the teaching of religion,we don't in fact know how much time is spent on learning it in school, we trust the teachers to have their priorities right and the priority is the academic stuff.

Just for your information, statistics released by the Department of Education, the ESRI and the teaching unions all indicate that between ten and twenty percent of the entire junior curriculum in religiously-controlled schools is taken up learning that one religion is right, and all the others are wrong. That figure averages out to between half a day and a day per week, and over an eight year junior cycle, to something between six and twelve months of school time - but for what?

Shrap

We, we, we.....all the way home. I remember hearing "We all think that..." once too often out of a certain parent in my school and so in front of *gasp* the local TD, *double gasp* the priest, the entire BOM and all the parents, I challenged her with "Who's this we then?". Utter silence from the audience as nobody stood up for her.......Whereupon she took her kids out of the school. She was the last to do that, and good riddance.

Mary, if you haven't been elected to represent anyone, may I humbly suggest that you stop speaking for them as if you're an official mouthpiece. I realise this is an anonymous internet forum, but it's still an unattractive trait. Try the word "I". It would go over better.

Samaris

Mary63 wrote: »

how many children are non national,if there are a lot of children who don't have english as their first language this will impact on my childs education so I will try and find out who my children's peers will be before I take up a place.I am not interested in welcoming waifs and strays,we can't afford them and if they have to be here I want them in the school up the road and not in my children's school.

Charming.

Mary63 wrote: »

I know every other parent in my children's school is of the same belief as me-

...-If- on the mad offchance all the parents in the school -actually- are of a hive mind with you (and as Shrap has ably pointed out, this is beyond unlikely), that school's got a hell of a lot more issues than the potential loss of a yearly carol service.

eviltwin

Mary63 wrote: »

I couldn't be more serious robindch,the vast majority of parents couldn't careless about the ethos of the school,they are concerned about the size of the class,what the teachers are like,how many children are non national,if there are a lot of children who don't have english as their first language this will impact on my childs education so I will try and find out who my children's peers will be before I take up a place.I am not interested in welcoming waifs and strays,we can't afford them and if they have to be here I want them in the school up the road and not in my children's school.

Showing your true colours now Mary, that didn't take long.

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

Showing your true colours now Mary, that didn't take long.

Very Christian attitude. Once again I'm wondering if this is the ethos taught in religious schools.

Mary63

Why shouldn't I say I don't want my children in a school with a myriad of nationalities eviltwin,at least I am being honest and not rushing off to find a Gaelscoil where I know the chances of immigrant children making their way there would be much lower.

There are schools in Dublin with very few Irish children,who wants their child in a classroom where his vocabulary won't be extended because no one speaks his language.I see principals and teachers saying how wonderful all this multi culturalism is,you can bet your life their own children are in different schools.

I genuinely have only met one parent who cared about religion in school and she traipsed miles everyday to an ET together school.I would be walking to our local catholic school and she would pass me on her way,her children must have been thirty minutes late for school everyday,seriously,this is nonsense when she could have gone to one of five different local catholic schools and saved her self stress and fuel.Her dd is probably an atheist now just like my ds.

And no,I couldn't care less about the perceived discrimination,you can take the easy option just like I did or you can wail and gnash your teeth and complain because you can't get a place,why should you get a place when everyone else has gone to the trouble of having their child baptised into the Faith and its a Faith school you are after.

It makes no difference to me what you do but you are very mistaken if you think you have much support for your crusade.You can organise as many meetings as you like in town halls,you won't get anyone to go.You won't get the ear of local politicians because they know most parents are as indifferent as me and there are no votes to be gained by rocking the boat.

I really don't know what the Catholic Church can do either and its not just the Catholic Churches you should have in your sights.The church have acknowledged they have too many schools and they would like to get rid of the schools in disadvantaged areas,they did their best to off load the schools and most of the parents polled didn't even bother replying never mind vote to become non denominational.

frostyjacks

lazygal wrote: »

Very Christian attitude. Once again I'm wondering if this is the ethos taught in religious schools.

I think you'll find, once you get down off your high horse, that most parents don't want lessons translated into several different languages when it comes to choosing a school for their children.

Mary63

Its hard enough for little ones to settle into Junior infants and make little friends.

It must be just awful to realise the only person you can talk to is the teacher.

I suppose though if this means your child won't be exposed to religion for some people thats a price worth paying,they aren't paying the price anyway,its their five year old who is.I would be very upset if I had to live in one of these disadvantaged areas and this was the only choice of school I had.

I would think this would be a genuine reason to fret.

Osgoodisgood

Mary63 wrote: »

I couldn't be more serious robindch,the vast majority of parents couldn't careless about the ethos of the school,they are concerned about the size of the class,what the teachers are like,how many children are non national,if there are a lot of children who don't have english as their first language this will impact on my childs education so I will try and find out who my children's peers will be before I take up a place.I am not interested in welcoming waifs and strays,we can't afford them and if they have to be here I want them in the school up the road and not in my children's school.

I know every other parent in my children's school is of the same belief as me,we are thrilled with our school,we have bought so many extras,we even have an astro turf pitch,we have ensuite facilities,a great library,loads of computers and a very good library.

We are certainly not cribbing about the teaching of religion,we don't in fact know how much time is spent on learning it in school,we trust the teachers to have their priorities right and the priority is the academic stuff.

We have a lot of stress going on in our lives and we accept the things we can change,the things we can't and the wisdom to know the difference.

I personally consulted every parent in the country (except for the 12 members of the "Women Of Wicklow - Bringing In God's Old Testament" group who prefer their name acronymed btw) and I must say I'm not sure you've got your whip count right here Mary. Leaving aside the nauseating selfishness on display, your lack of awareness of the prevailing sentiment towards the socially and politically disenfranchised from around the world is breathtaking.

Shrap

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think you'll find, once you get down off your high horse, that most parents don't want lessons translated into several different languages when it comes to choosing a school for their children.

Are you and Mary related? Or maybe you live under the same bridge, admiring the empty echoes that your vitriolic excreta makes in bouncing off the stonework. :rolleyes:

You stay classy, guys. I'm off to speak with people who don't get their kicks out of having sh1tty attitudes towards disadvantaged people. And if I get carded for this, well worth it.

Mary63

The Gaelscoils are inundated with demand osgoodisgood,its very co incidental that people discovered a love of Irish when numbers of immigrant families started to arrive.Most of the new found interest in the irish language was to do with parents making sure their children weren't outnumbered in the local schools,I don't blame the parents,I would do the same myself.

Its interesting that all the commentators withering on about how multi culturalism is good for us don't actually live in Clonee and Huntstown,they live in nice leafy Rathmines and Terenure.I don't have ****ty attitudes towards disadvantaged people,I feel sorry for them and their children and so glad I can provide a nice life for my own children.I heave a sigh of relief every time I walk through the school gates that I have so much to be grateful for.

You didn't consult me osgoodisgood,if you had I would have said our classes were a bit big and could you do something about that.I wouldn't even have thought of mentioning the topic of religion to you.

I am quite confident that I have the whip count right,there is no real demand for change regarding the patronage of schools,we might get around to that when we have dealt with the physical conditions of some schools.Some of them are a national disgrace.

marmurr1916

frostyjacks wrote: »

I have a problem with Godless busybodies thinking they can tell parents how, when and where they can have their own children educated about religion.

People died to keep the faith going in this country. Good, strong people. And for what? What for, eh? So some know-it-alls can just throw it on the scrapheap? I'm not having it.

Ireland isn't Taliban-land. If you don't like the fact that the Constitution of Ireland, enacted by the people of Ireland, gives non-religious people the right to avoid religious instruction in publicly funded schools, campaign for a constitutional amendment.

As for your 'I'm not having it' remark, are you codding me?

As time goes by, more and more people in Ireland are voluntarily giving up religion, and many of those that hang onto it do so more out of habit and reflex than belief.

The 1950s are over, get over it. :P

lazygal

Mary63 wrote: »

The Gaelscoils are inundated with demand osgoodisgood,its very co incidental that people discovered a love of Irish when numbers of immigrant families started to arrive.Most of the new found interest in the irish language was to do with parents making sure their children weren't outnumbered in the local schools,I don't blame the parents,I would do the same myself.

Its interesting that all the commentators withering on about how multi culturalism is good for us don't actually live in Clonee and Huntstown,they live in nice leafy Rathmines and Terenure.I don't have ****ty attitudes towards disadvantaged people,I feel sorry for them and their children and so glad I can provide a nice life for my own children.I heave a sigh of relief every time I walk through the school gates that I have so much to be grateful for.

You didn't consult me osgoodisgood,if you had I would have said our classes were a bit big and could you do something about that.I wouldn't even have thought of mentioning the topic of religion to you.

I am quite confident that I have the whip count right,there is no real demand for change regarding the patronage of schools,we might get around to that when we have dealt with the physical conditions of some schools.Some of them are a national disgrace.

Do you know where anyone posting here lives?

Is your selfish attitude towards the less fortunate than you something taught in faith schools?

looksee

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think you'll find, once you get down off your high horse, that most parents don't want lessons translated into several different languages when it comes to choosing a school for their children.

You got a lifeline Fj, thank Mary nicely for throwing you a new idea to bring into your limited argument!

Samaris

Mary63 wrote: »

The Gaelscoils are inundated with demand osgoodisgood,its very co incidental that people discovered a love of Irish when numbers of immigrant families started to arrive.Most of the new found interest in the irish language was to do with parents making sure their children weren't outnumbered in the local schools,I don't blame the parents,I would do the same myself.

Proof? I could as easily say "It's very co-incidental that people discovered a love of Irish when the religious ethos of the country waned, particularly after the scandals came to light during the early 2000s. Most lf the new-found interest in the Irish language was to do with parents not wanting their children educated in the poisonous atmosphere they either experienced themselves or were hearing existed from every side."

I would have just as much proof as your comment. I.e. none.

Mary63 wrote: »

Its interesting that all the commentators withering on about how multi culturalism is good for us don't actually live in Clonee and Huntstown,they live in nice leafy Rathmines and Terenure.

Er, it might be interesting if you had the slightest proof (or even the slightest reason for guessing beyond remarkably self-serving prejudice) that this was so. Are you psychic?

Mary63 wrote: »

I don't have ****ty attitudes towards disadvantaged people,I feel sorry for them and their children and so glad I can provide a nice life for my own children.I heave a sigh of relief every time I walk through the school gates that I have so much to be grateful for.

Well...going on this thread, yeah, kinda do. From dismissively sweeping away any foreigners (or is it just poor foreigners, you're okay with say, Swedes, French?) as "waifs and strays" that "we can't afford" who will contaminate your children's schools with their pesky knowledge of non-English languages. Ah, let your sprog pick up some Arabic. Increase that vocabulary you were concerned about!

Mary63 wrote: »

You didn't consult me osgoodisgood,if you had I would have said our classes were a bit big and could you do something about that.I wouldn't even have thought of mentioning the topic of religion to you.

I am quite confident that I have the whip count right,there is no real demand for change regarding the patronage of schools,we might get around to that when we have dealt with the physical conditions of some schools.Some of them are a national disgrace.

Your whip count being..."Irish parents in general", you seem to be concluding? Except Rathmines and Terenure. And the tiny subset of the country as a whole in this very thread suggesting you're actually pretty outnumbered in terms of the rather extraordinarily selfish "Well, -I'm- grand, so why on earth would I lift a finger to help anyone else?" attitude shown in your posts so far.