40% would prefer non-Christian school - Equate Ireland

PopePalpatine

Just a reminder of the very real effect of the discrimination Mary and Frosty are pushing:

Pherekydes

looksee wrote: »

Can you be specific about your evidence for the exclusive link between Christian values and the 'be nice to each other and play fair' example?

I can think of lots more very specific evidence for the reverse of that link.

It's hilarious. The main thing I was taught as a catholic was that I was going to heaven (if I was a good boy), while sinners and non-catholics were going to hell. We were actively taught to look down on "proddies", while atheists were virtual disciples of satan.

How's that for fair play?

I've said this before: ALL of the state's schools should be open to ALL of the state's children, dependent only on educational level and geographical location.

Cabaal

Mary63 wrote: »

....but we like christian values and we want them taught,i.e. be nice to each other and play fair.

Do you really,
The catholic teaches that
- Sex before marriage is = wrong
- Divorce = Wrong
- Pregnant outside of marriage = wrong
- Condom use = wrong
- IVF = wrong
- Marriage for gay/lesbian couples = wrong

Yet society see's every one of the above is perfectly fine, the catholic church's teachings are completely at odds with what our society wants.

Yet you want these values thought to your child, while you might be ok with your child being thought that gay people are sinful not everyone holds such backward beliefs.

You claim people want christian values but very clearly people don't, otherwise they would have listened to the church when it came to keeping condoms banned, keeping divorce illegal and never allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry.

As for playing fair, its evident you don't subscribe to this at all. Fair isn't discriminating against 5 year olds.

robindch

Mary63 wrote: »

[...] we like christian values and we want them taught, ie be nice to each other and play fair.

Do you really believe that being nice and playing fair isn't a part of an ET school? Have you ever been inside one?

And are you also claiming that the RCC's behaviour since Independence in this country could be characterized by terms "nice" and "playing fair"?

Mary63 wrote: »

Why are we caving into the demands for a secular education system when the vast majority of parents don't want this,they really don't.

A secular education system is one in which the state does not try to control somebody's religious beliefs by preferring one religious view over another (ie, as in giving tax-free status to one religion, but not another; or by allowing one religion to control most of the schools).

When done properly, and it isn't being done right here, secularism benefits catholics just as much as it benefits non-catholics.

Mary63

I think the little bit of religion my children were taught is nice,we can all benefit from reading the bible and learning about christianity.I liked listening to my children practicing for the carol service and putting together costumes for the nativity play.it was the high light of the school year and parents will book time off work weeks in advance because they want to be there.

My children have never come home from school with a disdain for any religion,in fact some of their Muslim friends attend their ceremonies to celebrate alongside them.I am Catholic but my children attend a COI school and they attend their friends confirmation celebrations.

Who cares what the Catholic church teaches,you just pick and choose what suits you,that is first dibs on the catholic school place and the opportunity to attend nice Carol services.

I love carol services so I will attend the nice one coming up in the local Church of Ireland,I will head to a mosque too if the muslims put on something I would be interested in.

Why should the two parents out of every fifty in the school stop me and my children enjoying this fun,its harmless and it certainly isn't going to do any child harm to participate.

The non catholics of different religious persuasion are keeping very quiet about this.There is no way the COI schools are going to allow atheist children in before COI children and as for the muslim schools,not a chance.It will be unconstitutional to force Catholics to give up their schools if other religions are allowed freedom to teach their children through their ethos.I can't see any solution to this other than opening up ET schools all around the country and there isn't money in the budget to do this.The middle class parents involved in Equal Education don't want new schools though,they want to get their hands on the best schools and these are in the local catholic schools and the COI schools.

I don't see the difference really between a secular system and a catholic one,in the secular school I am prevented from expressing my ethos,in a catholic school the atheist is forced to look at the picture of the sacred heart,its the same thing really,in one a lack of belief is being forced on me and in the other someone else's belief is the ethos.

As I said its all a middle class obsession fuelled by the irish times.You won't hear parents in deprived areas wondering and worrying about their children being taught religion,they will have enough to be doing to make sure there is ink in the photocopier and there aren't vermin in the classrooms.

PopePalpatine

No one's stopping you from bringing your kids to carol services or instilling these "Christian values" in your kids. Those of us who want a secular education system just don't want it forced on all kids using the education system.

Cabaal

Mary63 wrote: »

I think the little bit of religion my children were taught is nice,we can all benefit from reading the bible and learning about christianity

Little bit?
Its evident you don't know what you are talking about.

That "little bit" is 10% of primary school time, thats equal to the amount of time school spend learning maths at primary level. Thats not little at all, that an excessive waste of valuable educational time.

As for reading the bible, yes I do like reading about how your god hates gay people and how women can be murdered for doing minor things. Its so enlightening and teaches me peace and love.
:rolleyes:

I liked listening to my children practicing for the carol service and putting together costumes for the nativity play.it was the high light of the school year and parents will book time off work weeks in advance because they want to be there.

Thats fine, you like your kids singing and playing dress up. thats fine. I've no issue with this.
But that doesn't mean its ok to discriminate against 5 year olds when it comes to tax payer funded schools.

I love carol services so I will attend the nice one coming up in the local Church of Ireland,I will head to a mosque too if the muslims put on something I would be interested in.

Thats great for you,
But again it does nothing to resolve the problem of discrimination against 5 year olds,

Why should the two parents out of every fifty in the school stop me and my children enjoying this fun,its harmless and it certainly isn't going to do any child harm to participate.

But nobody is stopping you,
You can still partake in all the religious events you want, I assume you go to mass after all right?

Why did those black kids in 1950's America have to upset the all white schools by wanting to use the state funded school system eh? Why couldn't they just go off and use their own schools.

They are different so they should have used different schools.

Just like you believe atheists are different and should use different schools, it seems in your world discrimination is fine and well as long as you are the one discriminating against the smaller group.

Mary63

The vast majority of the tax payers though are happy with the status quo,in fact they are so happy they give a lot of money to their schools through voluntary subscriptions and through fundraising.

No one is discriminating against atheists,you can homeschool your child if you want and I would be more than happy to see my taxpayers money going to provide you with the resources you need at home.I see lots of parents totally happy with our school,there are even younger siblings being turned away now because of increase in demand,its isn't just atheists etc who can't get a place in a school of their choice.No one has a right in any particular school,each school has an enrolment policy and if a non catholic child doesn't get a place in one school because there isn't room and no other reason then he will be offered a place somewhere else.The Hindu family who were refused their first choice got a place immediately in another school,this is as much as the State has to do,i.e. provide a school place,the state does not have to provide a place in school of choice.

Why are we even bringing segregation in the States into this thread,its totally irrelevant.No child in this country is denied a school place,if an atheist child wants to go to a school which has plenty of availability there is no issue at all,the issue is demanding a secular education when the majority of the other children want to be taught religion and their parents have chosen a school because of its religious ethos for the main part.How is it fair that the minority should block a child from receiving religious instruction.

lazygal

Mary63 wrote: »

The vast majority of the tax payers though are happy with the status quo,in fact they are so happy they give a lot of money to their schools through voluntary subscriptions and through fundraising.

No one is discriminating against atheists,you can homeschool your child if you want and I would be more than happy to see my taxpayers money going to provide you with the resources you need at home.I see lots of parents totally happy with our school,there are even younger siblings being turned away now because of increase in demand,its isn't just atheists etc who can't get a place in a school of their choice.No one has a right in any particular school,each school has an enrolment policy and if a non catholic child doesn't get a place in one school because there isn't room and no other reason then he will be offered a place somewhere else.The Hindu family who were refused their first choice got a place immediately in another school,this is as much as the State has to do,i.e. provide a school place,the state does not have to provide a place in school of choice.

Why are we even bringing segregation in the States into this thread,its totally irrelevant.No child in this country is denied a school place,if an atheist child wants to go to a school which has plenty of availability there is no issue at all,the issue is demanding a secular education when the majority of the other children want to be taught religion and their parents have chosen a school because of its religious ethos for the main part.How is it fair that the minority should block a child from receiving religious instruction.

Could you look my children in the eye and explain why they're category three, four, five or even ten children for state funded schools because their parents have chosen to raise them without any faith?

Huntergonzo

I don't have a lot of time here so I would simply say to those who support state funded catholic schools over neutrality to sit down and THINK, think without bias and see what you come up with.

Ps, if thinking hurts your head, the star wars trilogy episodes 1-3 is just after starting on Sky 304, that ought to kill all cognitive thought!

Cabaal

Home schooling? , oh man, now I know you are perfectly fine to discriminate. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic

mickoneill31

You know, it's reading posters like some of the posters on this thread that was the final straw for me. They're saying "So what, it's the majority so conform".

Before reading views like this I would have sleepwalked through Christenings, Communions & Confirmations without really caring, thinking "sure what's the harm". But that's what lots of people do, who are in the majority. So my daughter won't be getting Christened. When she's old enough to think for herself she can decide whether she wants to get this done.

The 60% are in the majority now. This number is only going to get smaller. So in a couple of years when they're in the minority they'll be happy to have secular schools as they're obviously happy to go along with the majority.
Or, I suspect, they'll be moaning about persecution.

Mary63

They are three four five or whatever lazy gal because you are obviously applying for schools which either are Catholic or Church of Ireland run.

This is the reality you have to deal with and unfortunately for your child to get a place another child loses out,I could equally say an eldest child in any family is three four or five down the list because a sibling of a child already in an over subscribed school will get the place ahead of him.Why should my child lose out to your child if I have made sure my child has what is required to get into the catholic school,i.e. the Baptisimal cert,I swallowed my principles because I don't want to be in your situation and I also feel its not up to me to decide for my child that religion isn't important.I would rather my child learnt about religion and made that decision himself.

So ,yes,I am quite happy to look your child in the eye and say your parent took their eye off the ball and now you want all religion to be removed from all schools because thats your belief system,its not mine and your problem isn't going to be mine either.You now have to find a school that will take your child and this will probably involve a commute and it won't be the best school,the best school will be filled with the children who have been baptised,your principles have cost your child and you have to live with that.

You don't have to conform to anything mickoneill,there are plenty of school places available,you can stand by your beliefs and then travel to a school further away which has places,its not like you aren't going to find a school for your child.If you are lucky you will get an ET school and you need to put pressure on the Government to make sure places in these schools are offered to atheists and whatever you are having yourself first.

Its not rocket science,there is no way in hell I and the majority of parents like me who have baptised our child are going to allow a secular system to be forced on us if it means our child is going to lose out,we don't care how selfish this is,its all fair in love and war when it comes to the best school for our children.

KingBrian2

Yeah I agree with most of the sentiments of posters on here the Catholic Church and other religious schools have too much hold over the State's education system. It is unfair to all the non religious and even the practising Catholics. Keep your values a private matter not a public matter.

PopePalpatine

Why should religion be a determining factor ahead of proximity? Why should a Catholic child 10km away from a school have priority over a non-Catholic child that lives within a stone's throw of that same school?

I shudder to think how the discrimination apologists would react if the tables were turned.

mickoneill31

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I shudder to think how the discrimination apologists would react if the tables were turned.

Ah, then it's called persecution.

lazygal

Mary63 wrote: »

They are three four five or whatever lazy gal because you are obviously applying for schools which either are Catholic or Church of Ireland run.

This is the reality you have to deal with and unfortunately for your child to get a place another child loses out,I could equally say an eldest child in any family is three four or five down the list because a sibling of a child already in an over subscribed school will get the place ahead of him.Why should my child lose out to your child if I have made sure my child has what is required to get into the catholic school,i.e. the Baptisimal cert,I swallowed my principles because I don't want to be in your situation and I also feel its not up to me to decide for my child that religion isn't important.I would rather my child learnt about religion and made that decision himself.

So ,yes,I am quite happy to look your child in the eye and say your parent took their eye off the ball and now you want all religion to be removed from all schools because thats your belief system,its not mine and your problem isn't going to be mine either.You now have to find a school that will take your child and this will probably involve a commute and it won't be the best school,the best school will be filled with the children who have been baptised,your principles have cost your child and you have to live with that.

You don't have to conform to anything mickoneill,there are plenty of school places available,you can stand by your beliefs and then travel to a school further away which has places,its not like you aren't going to find a school for your child.If you are lucky you will get an ET school and you need to put pressure on the Government to make sure places in these schools are offered to atheists and whatever you are having yourself first.

Its not rocket science,there is no way in hell I and the majority of parents like me who have baptised our child are going to allow a secular system to be forced on us if it means our child is going to lose out,we don't care how selfish this is,its all fair in love and war when it comes to the best school for our children.

Are these the type of values taught in catholic schools?

PopePalpatine

lazygal wrote: »

Are these the type of values taught in catholic schools?

Well, I suppose they've got to find a way to get the sheep to vote "No" to anything that threatens their grip on the State.

Mary63

What is the obsession with Catholic schools,you won't get a place in an over subscribed Church of Ireland school either and nor will a Catholic child.A catholic Child will get a place in a COI school after every COI child has been accommodated,this is the enrolment policy.

I just believe Athiest parents are under estimating the resistance to any change to faith schools,these schools are very important vehicles for the transmitting of religious values and the majority of parents want religious beliefs maintained,they won't say this publicly because religion is best not talked about.

There will be even greater resistance at second level,the best performing schools are the schools which have a religious ethos and again there is much more demand for these schools than there is for the community schools.This is what parents look at when choosing a secondary school and not whether religion is taught or not.The problem is most of the good Catholic primary schools feed into very good Catholic secondary schools and if you can't access the primary school you won't get a place in the oversubscribed secondary school either.

The Church of Ireland secondary schools are mostly private and they were supported by the State to allow this minority religion provide education to COI children.There is a new(free) COI secondary school just opened in Greystones and I can only imagine what COI parents will have to say if their children have to queue up alongside atheist children for a place,that won't be a pretty battle.

lazygal

Mary63 wrote: »

What is the obsession with Catholic schools,you won't get a place in an over subscribed Church of Ireland school either and nor will a Catholic child.A catholic Child will get a place in a COI school after every COI child has been accommodated,this is the enrolment policy.

I just believe Athiest parents are under estimating the resistance to any change to faith schools,these schools are very important vehicles for the transmitting of religious values and the majority of parents want religious beliefs maintained,they won't say this publicly because religion is best not talked about.

There will be even greater resistance at second level,the best performing schools are the schools which have a religious ethos and again there is much more demand for these schools than there is for the community schools.This is what parents look at when choosing a secondary school and not whether religion is taught or not.The problem is most of the good Catholic primary schools feed into very good Catholic secondary schools and if you can't access the primary school you won't get a place in the oversubscribed secondary school either.

The Church of Ireland secondary schools are mostly private and they were supported by the State to allow this minority religion provide education to COI children.There is a new(free) COI secondary school just opened in Greystones and I can only imagine what COI parents will have to say if their children have to queue up alongside atheist children for a place,that won't be a pretty battle.

Source? For the performance and demand levels?

PopePalpatine

Why do you need to keep an iron grip on the schools? It's not as if secularising the schools will lead to the >10% of school time currently dedicated to religious instruction being turned into a session of reading from the works of the "New Atheists" like Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.

Delirium

lazygal wrote: »

Are these the type of values taught in catholic schools?

seems "be nice and fair play" aren't applicable when it concerns a childs education.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Why do you need to keep an iron grip on the schools? It's not as if secularising the schools will lead to the >10% of school time currently dedicated to religious instruction being turned into a session of reading from the works of the "New Atheists" like Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.

Because we can't have parents teaching children their faith outside of school, in large buildings built for the purposes of religious worship?

pH

I still think that the very idea of any "patron" coming between the state and the provision of education is a terrible idea, sure have some parents or local people involved to make some local decisions at the school, but the very idea that state money has to be passed through an organisation to give the school "ethos" is bizarre.

We don't do it for Garda stations, or social welfare offices, the fact we do it for schools (and to a certain extent hospitals) is a recipe for disaster. I mean people like "educate together" seem harmless enough, but why do we need them? what exactly do they add that a state run education system couldn't provide - and as was seen in the abuse cases there's a dangerous lack of responsibility when something goes badly wrong inside a school.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/school-patronage-system-has-had-its-day-1.2304943

Mary63

School league tables lazygal and you will find out soon enough when you are looking for a secondary school place for your child what the situation is.The best secondary schools have local primary schools feeding into them,the children from the feeder school will be accommodated after siblings already in the school but most do get a place.

The ET together children have priority in our local comprehensive but this wouldn't have as good a reputation as the single sex catholic schools,the best and brightest of the primary school children feed on into the catholic secondary schools,the rest head off to the comprehensive.The Church of Ireland children go onto private secondary schools mostly,I think there is a grant available for those who can't afford fees.

As far as I know though religion is taught as part of the syllabus in comprehensive and community schools too,maybe atheist children can opt out.

Pherekydes

Mary63 wrote: »

I think the little bit of religion my children were taught is nice,we can all benefit from reading the bible and learning about christianity.

You read the bible? Live your life by it? Where do you buy your slaves? I hope you don't buy them from the neighbouring town! And when you're punishing your slaves I hope you don't kill them! Just beat them a little bit.

Yep, we can all benefit from reading the bible...

lazygal

Mary63 wrote: »

School league tables lazygal and you will find out soon enough when you are looking for a secondary school place for your child what the situation is.The best secondary schools have local primary schools feeding into them,the children from the feeder school will be accommodated after siblings already in the school but most do get a place.

The ET together children have priority in our local comprehensive but this wouldn't have as good a reputation as the single sex catholic schools,the best and brightest of the primary school children feed on into the catholic secondary schools,the rest head off to the comprehensive.The Church of Ireland children go onto private secondary schools mostly,I think there is a grant available for those who can't afford fees.

As far as I know though religion is taught as part of the syllabus in comprehensive and community schools too,maybe atheist children can opt out.

Do you mean the league tables that refer to progression to third level and leaving cert points? Is it part of the values taught in religious schools that only these things are important?

What exactly makes religious schools better than other schools? Given that 96% of primary schools are religious, do you think all of them achieve the same outcomes? Do all religious run secondary schools achieve the same outcomes, if the value add of religion is so good?

PopePalpatine

From reading this article, I'd say socio-economic backgrounds of the students play a far larger role in league table rankings than the patronage of the school.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

From reading this article, I'd say socio-economic backgrounds of the students play a far larger role in league table rankings than the patronage of the school.

Yes, parental involvement is a significant factor in how well children do.

Incidentally, we were sent to religious schools and the quality of teaching varied. I did my leaving cert year and exams in a non state funded school and did miles better and the teachers were in a different league. The most poorly performing schools in our area in terms of academics are religious single sex schools.

robindch

Mod:

Mary63 wrote: »

How is it fair that the minority should block a child from receiving religious instruction.

Mary - please let me greet you formally to the Atheism and Agnosticism forum - welcome!

Before we all spend too much time posting, I should remind you that A+A is a discussion forum where, very often, thorny and potentially upsetting topics are discussed - regularly and often.

Here's how it works - a discussion happens when (a) one side of some issue puts forward their point of view, (b) the other side listens then (c) posts a response to the points made in (a), then (d) the first person posts another response perhaps including (e) clarifications of (a), responses to (c) and perhaps (f) new pieces of information. And so, in an ideal world and an ideal discussion, the cycle continues.

You're doing the (a) with knobs on - well done! And other posters are doing the (b) + (c) to their usual, high standard. However, you seem to be forgetting completely the necessary quality for a discussion - namely the (d), (e) and (f) bits. Now, when that happens, we call it "soap-boxing" as it's a bit like somebody standing up on one of those old wooden soap-box on some street corner while waving their fists and shouting at passersby, the traffic, any domesticated animals within range, street furniture and clouds.

Could you please try to work as hard as you can on the (d), (e) and (f) bits and I'm sure that we'll be able to get along just hunky-dory?

Many thanks from your friendly forum moderator team.

looksee

I really hope that the so called Christians that post in A&A with their narrow minded, really obnoxious and un-loving views are the minority among Christians. What a bleak existence they must live.


Mary63

They would be making a decision not to put their children forward for the sacraments.I would bet 95% of children in every Catholic School are still making their communion,what exercises parents is making sure their child has a star role in the ceremony and most parents will be looking for communion outfits before the christmas tinsel is taken down.The fact that the child won't set foot in a church till their confirmation and then not again till their wedding day is irrelevant.

You freely admit that these 'Catholics' are hypocrits!

Most people are just too tired to care,they want a local school for their child and they baptise them from birth so they can be assured of a place

more hypocracy

I have made sure my child has what is required to get into the catholic school,i.e. the Baptisimal cert,

I swallowed my principles because I don't want to be in your situation

I liked listening to my children practicing for the carol service and putting together costumes for the nativity play.

You think it is reasonable to discriminate against children just because you 'like' listening to a carol service?

I am Catholic but my children attend a COI school and they attend their friends confirmation celebrations.

:rolleyes: All the Catholic schools in the country and you are taking up spaces in a RofI school, and your children are not getting the Catholic education you are going on about!

Can you not see that you have stated that people are baptising children just to get them into schools? Otherwise they have no interest in the religious or spiritual side of it, they just do it for convenience? If that is the case, why demand it of them, remove the baptism requirement from school admissions and everyone will be able to get their children educated without resorting to hypocracy and deviousness.

meeeeh

The solution is simple. Just scrap the patronage in the schools, all of them. Religion or some rainbow all inclusive mumbo jumbo should be taught after school. Considering how slow the transfer from catholic to ET schools is you can be sure there is plenty of of local opposition. Our local ET has 50% non irish pupils. I don't want my child to go to school in disadvantaged areas or in schools where any extra resources will be spent on kids who don't speak English. People might not think it's fair but not many will agree if their local catholic school is picked to suddenly become non denominational. So the easiest thing is to remove patronage from all state schools and only allow enrolment on geographical basis and maybe if siblings are already there.

There are quite a few kids who live walking distance from ET driven to my son's catholic school. I'm pretty sure only one family is properly religious. There is no point fooling yourself that just because there are oversubscribed et schools in Dublin the same solution can be applied in less densely populated areas. Clean change of removing patronage would be by far the easiest and enable less segregation than some half hearted attempts so Labour can say they are working on it at the election time. Because that's why there is such a debate about this now, they know FG will get all the kudos for economy. Unfortunately the whole thing is way more complicated than a few percentage points in the election will solve.

Mary63

look see,people like me just want the best school for our children so we make sure the boxes are ticked.

It suits us fine that people who don't want to go along with this don't,this means our child will get into our local school which is run by the Catholic Church,the fact that you don't like this situation is neither here nor there,you can stand by your principles and hope a school place will turn up thats tailor made for you.

Most people hedge their bets,they aren't sure if there is an afterlife but they want their child to be baptised in case there is,its also a nice day out for the family and its a welcoming service the community can join in,where is the harm and even better its your entrance ticket to the school across the road.

The church provided schools and educated people no one else was interested in educating,we can't forget this debt that we owe either.

I really can't understand why parents don't just play along,why would you allow your principles to get in the way of your child getting into the best school available,all the happy parents of the happy children in the faith schools can't be all wrong.Why on earth would you want to settle for second best when this is going to affect your childs chance of getting into the best non fee paying secondary school in the locality too.

I really don't care about religion at all,I wanted what I perceived to be the best secondary school for my child and that is the COI school,my child got a place because there was room,he wouldn't have got a place if there were too many COI children.

Do you not think Athiests are pretty closed minded too.

Most people here appear to be very indisposed to compromise in anyway.Also referring to others deeply held religious views as mumbo jumbo is not going to do your secular cause any favours at all.

Delirium

you're asking another poster would they let their principles deny their child a place in the best school while supporting a situation where your position would deny children equal access to schools.

looksee

Mary63 wrote: »

look see,people like me just want the best school for our children so we make sure the boxes are ticked.

It suits us fine that people who don't want to go along with this don't,this means our child will get into our local school which is run by the Catholic Church,the fact that you don't like this situation is neither here nor there,you can stand by your principles and hope a school place will turn up thats tailor made for you.

Most people hedge their bets,they aren't sure if there is an afterlife but they want their child to be baptised in case there is,its also a nice day out for the family and its a welcoming service the community can join in,where is the harm and even better its your entrance ticket to the school across the road.

The church provided schools and educated people no one else was interested in educating,we can't forget this debt that we owe either.

I really can't understand why parents don't just play along,why would you allow your principles to get in the way of your child getting into the best school available,all the happy parents of the happy children in the faith schools can't be all wrong.Why on earth would you want to settle for second best when this is going to affect your childs chance of getting into the best non fee paying secondary school in the locality too.

I really don't care about religion at all,I wanted what I perceived to be the best secondary school for my child and that is the COI school,my child got a place because there was room,he wouldn't have got a place if there were too many COI children.

Do you not think Athiests are pretty closed minded too.

Most people here appear to be very indisposed to compromise in anyway.Also referring to others deeply held religious views as mumbo jumbo is not going to do your secular cause any favours at all.

This is really so sad, and so far beyond comment that I am not going to even attempt it, it is obviously a complete waste of time.

recedite

Mary63 wrote: »

The ET together children have priority in our local comprehensive but this wouldn't have as good a reputation as the single sex catholic schools,the best and brightest of the primary school children feed on into the catholic secondary schools,the rest head off to the comprehensive.The Church of Ireland children go onto private secondary schools mostly,I think there is a grant available for those who can't afford fees.

You have got this all wrong. The ET primary school kids don't have priority in a free secondary school. All the primary schools in the local area would have the same priority.
Its not the best and brightest that head off to private single sex catholic schools; its the wealthiest, and/or those not quite so wealthy but who struggle to pay the fees, in the hope that by associating with the wealthiest some advantage will rub off on them.

The protestant schools can also be either free or fee paying. Poorer protestants don't pay in protestant private schools, partly because the schools are subsidised by a certain proportion of fee paying non-protestant pupils. This allows them to grant aid a certain proportion of protestant pupils.

The private schools can be very picky about who gets in, regardless of their religious ethos. But a bright pupil with good support at home will get good results in any secondary school.

Mary63

Newpark Comprehensive,a very big school in Dublin gives priority to ET together children before children from other local primary schools.

It also prioritises non Catholic children and the one Atheist family I know sends their children there too.I only know one atheist family and I know lots of people so I don't know where we are getting the huge numbers of people who want religion removed from school.I don't know a single person who objects to religion in school, yet according to the media and this forum half the country are lying awake worrying about it.

The atheist parents I know probably would prefer religion was removed from school but I wouldn't discuss religion with them.

What are we going to do about the protestant schools and the muslim schools in this religion free Utopia, we are most certainly going to have to make sure they are secular too.Are we going to have a referendum so we can all vote that all our schools are to be secular.How are we going to deal with the private schools all of which have their own ethos.We cant allow them to continue to be run along religious lines while the teachers salaries are being paid and if we don't pay the teachers salaries these schools will close down,all these pupils will then have their entire education funded by the taxpayer and this is going to cost millions.

The brightest head off to the best school in their area and this doesn't mean private,its the school with the best reputation and faith schools have an excellent reputation in most parts of the country.Parents choose the primary school partly based on where it feeds too,the Catholics choose the best Catholic secondary school and the COI cohort do the same.Most of the protestant secondary schools are fee paying and the State help with the fees because its cheaper to do this than build enough secondary schools.You would have some chance of wresting schools from the Catholic Church,you would have no chance at all imposing a secular education on our Protestant brethren,they are a very powerful force and they are watching and waiting.

Nothing is going to happen anytime soon,someone asked me could i look their child in the eye and watch them being number one thousand on a waiting list.I might ask how a parent could look their children in the eye and explain why they don't have a place with their pals in the local school.

Do you all celebrate Christmas as a matter of interest or is santa against your principles too.

The Randy Riverbeast

Mary63 wrote: »

Do you all celebrate Christmas as a matter of interest or is santa against your principles too.

You would think people in favour of the teaching of Christianity would have some idea of what Christmas is meant to be about. Hint: it's not Santa.

mickoneill31

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

You would think people in favour of the teaching of Christianity would have some idea of what Christmas is meant to be about. Hint: it's not Santa.

You'd also think they'd know that Christmas was taken from a pagan celebration. But still it appears as a question frequently.

I celebrate Christmas 95% the same as when I was a kid. The ONLY difference is I don't spend 40 mins of the day at mass.

Cabaal

Mary63 wrote: »

Do you all celebrate Christmas as a matter of interest or is santa against your principles too.

Why do you honor the gods Thor & Freya each week?
Its against your religion to honor false gods but here you are doing it each and every week, thats not very christian at all.

As for your comments about Christmas, its evident that you once again don't actually know what you are talking about. At this stage it must be getting embarrassing for you.

looksee

Cabaal wrote: »

Why do you honor the gods Thor & Freya each week?
Its against your religion to honor false gods but here you are doing it each and every week, thats not very christian at all.

As for your comments about Christmas, its evident that you once again don't actually know what you are talking about. At this stage it must be getting embarrassing for you.

I think she has pretty well proved by her comments that she does not have any religion, and just goes along with the crowd and enjoys what is 'nice' without any further thought for the consequences.

I suspect she represents a huge number of people of similar outlook.

These are the people that are being represented as 'Catholics' - the ones who don't go to mass but are entitled to have a Catholic ethos for their children because...well, this is what the Nuns and Brothers taught them...ceremonies are nice but you wouldn't want the trouble of showing the children what is expected of them, and going to the huge expense of buying white dresses is more interesting than buying groceries. And you can enjoy the warm fuzzy of showing that you can do as well as the neighbours in dressing up your offspring and its a good excuse to celebrate by going for a pint.

frostyjacks

Cabaal wrote: »

Why do you honor the gods Thor & Freya each week?
Its against your religion to honor false gods but here you are doing it each and every week, thats not very christian at all.

As for your comments about Christmas, its evident that you once again don't actually know what you are talking about. At this stage it must be getting embarrassing for you.

What's this honoring Thor and Freya nonsense? They're just names for days of the week, nobody celebrates them the way atheists celebrate Christian festivals.

mickoneill31

frostyjacks wrote: »

What's this honoring Thor and Freya nonsense? They're just names for days of the week, nobody celebrates them the way atheists celebrate Christian festivals.

I think that's the point.
I'm an Atheist. I celebrate Christmas. To me Christmas is a time for holidays, exchanging gifts, too much food, Santa and time with family.
I call it Christmas but the Christ in Christmas has as much relevance to me as the Thor in Thursday.

The implication was that, because it's called Christmas non Christians can't celebrate it.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

What's this honoring Thor and Freya nonsense? They're just names for days of the week, nobody celebrates them the way atheists celebrate Christian festivals.

Exactly, the are days of the week named as such in honor of gods,

Using a name doesn't mean you believe in what the name was created for, thanks for making my point.


Unless you want to claiming using a name does prove you believe in what it was created for, in which case thanking you believing in the lord god Thor.


Atheists celebrate the birth of Jebus? Really? Have you found any that actually believe that Jesus was born on that date and who celebrate the gods birth?

Atheists hanging out with family's and practice pagan traditions like putting up a tree in their home....you know, the same pagan stuff that Catholics do too

Does that mean all those Christians are pagan? :pac:

lazygal

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+10&version=KJV

Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

[...] the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest [...] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not [...]

Waiting for a religious person to say that this particular biblical rule is:

• Taken out of context
• Applied in a different time, but doesn't apply now because "times have changed"
• Doesn't apply now because of some other vague biblical rule
• Does not refer to christmas trees as we know them

Huntergonzo

Christmas = beer, darts, wine, turkey, turkey sandwiches, turkey curry, moan about all the turkey, spend time with family, meet friends, time off work, go to casino, gamble on horses, go out and see if I've still 'got it' ;-) etc etc etc

What the hell is there not to like, I'll believe any old sh1te if I can get anyway with doing those activities for a week or so!!!

Mary63

The thing about the atheists though is that other people think they are a bit odd and they don't quite trust them,this isn't meant to be offensive by the way.

People get to know each other through meeting at the school gate and if your child is being driven out of the locality to attend school elsewhere because you don't want him to learn a few prayers it is very hard for him to make friends locally.The family then aren't really known either and because Athiests are so few in number its hard to find like minded people to socialise with.

Also politicians hang around churches and hang out at funerals to garner voter loyalty,there are no votes to be got signing up to Educational Equality which is flavour of the month at the moment,I can't see this campaign going anywhere.

lazygal

Mary63 wrote: »

The thing about the atheists though is that other people think they are a bit odd and they don't quite trust them,this isn't meant to be offensive by the way.

People get to know each other through meeting at the school gate and if your child is being driven out of the locality to attend school elsewhere because you don't want him to learn a few prayers it is very hard for him to make friends locally.The family then aren't really known either and because Athiests are so few in number its hard to find like minded people to socialise with.

Also politicians hang around churches and hang out at funerals to garner voter loyalty,there are no votes to be got signing up to Educational Equality which is flavour of the month at the moment,I can't see this campaign going anywhere.

Again, more of what is taught in catholic schools? I'm not quite sure how this is supposed to entice people into thinking they are lovely inclusive places where people play fair and are nice to each other.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

The thing about the atheists though is that other people think they are a bit odd and they don't quite trust them,this isn't meant to be offensive by the way.

:pac:

Shouldn't you have added "Some of my best friends are atheists"?

Oh, and just lol, by the way. No, no other people do not think I'm "a bit odd". Nor were my children (who went to the local RCC school, because it's their community school) seen as "a bit odd" for having no religion.

What was profoundly odd was the way my kids were sitting out religion classes during a significant portion of curriculum time and having to be brought home during school hours when church practice had been scheduled, and how that made other parents (friends of mine) uncomfortable when they realised that there is no alternative for kids/parents of other religions and none. It embarrassed them that they hadn't considered the effect of their faith formation rituals being taught during school hours on their friends. Many religious people are waay more aware and understanding about the discrimination and difference being made of some kids than you're giving them credit for (and indeed, are more aware than yourself, seemingly).

This was a rural school where there were no issues about admittance, unlike in urban schools. I personally believe the finding that 40% of parents would favour secular schooling, as I believe this amount of people are smart enough to see these issues are not going away any time soon and will only become more divisive the more multicultural Ireland becomes.