40% would prefer non-Christian school - Equate Ireland

looksee

The only consolation is that if Mary63 went and promoted her views of religion on the Christianity forum she would get short shrift there too. Like minded people, lol.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

The family then aren't really known either and because Athiests are so few in number its hard to find like minded people to socialise with.

Oh, and BS. Total BS. My friends in this locality don't give a toss if I'm an atheist, and I don't give a toss if they believe in a Christian God or a Spaghetti Monster. If you were talking about 1950's Ireland you might have a point, but you're not and you don't.

Cabaal

Mary63 wrote: »

The thing about the atheists though is that other people think they are a bit odd and they don't quite trust them,this isn't meant to be offensive by the way.

No offense taken at all,,
But to be fair many people see Catholics as untrustworthy as well,

After all, how else do you view people that support the Catholic Church, the same church that had rules and guidelines in place at the highest level to ensure that when a priest abused a child the child would be sworn to silence and the priest would be moved on to abuse other children in other parishes.

The very fact that many Catholics believe the catholic church is fit to run 92% of our school system is extremely worrying. But there you go with all have our views of people and their faults.

Thankfully I don't support an organization that abused children and sold babies for profit, so atleast I can sleep at night.

Mary63

Most of the people coming to this country are probably Eastern European and many are Catholic.We are going to see enormous numbers of Muslims and don't think for one minute that they won't choose a single sex catholic school above all other options.

The other parents aren't embarrassed shrap,not one bit.They think deep down you are making a fuss over nothing and they feel sorry for your child,won't someone think of the children.

I don't know how much time is spent on religion,I have never asked,I would think its down to the individual teacher,some teachers have no religion themselves so they will do the bare minimum.

Why didn't your children just bring their nintendo or iPad to school,thats what the children in our school who aren't making their communion or confirmation do,these would be immigrant children,the Irish children all insist on making the sacraments because they get lots of money and who wants their child not to have fun and to stand out like a sore thumb,oh dear,that would be Shrap.

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

People get to know each other through meeting at the school gate and if your child is being driven out of the locality to attend school elsewhere because you don't want him to learn a few prayers it is very hard for him to make friends locally.The family then aren't really known either and because Athiests are so few in number its hard to find like minded people to socialise with.

But the admissions policy that you support creates the scenario where non-Catholic children may be required to receive their school in another village/town.

Also politicians hang around churches and hang out at funerals to garner voter loyalty,there are no votes to be got signing up to Educational Equality which is flavour of the month at the moment,I can't see this campaign going anywhere.

Lack of political leadership on the topic of equal access to schools isn't a good reason to accept the status quo.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

Most of the people coming to this country are probably Eastern European and many are Catholic.We are going to see enormous numbers of Muslims and don't think for one minute that they won't choose a single sex catholic school above all other options.

There ARE no other options for the vast majority of people who aren't Catholic (and Protestant to a lesser degree) in this country.

The other parents aren't embarrassed shrap,not one bit.They think deep down you are making a fuss over nothing and they feel sorry for your child,won't someone think of the children.

Well, I have just told you that parents I know are. Are you calling me a liar? Oh wait, there's you second guessing my friends now too....wow. Maybe you could explain to me (and possibly to them) what fuss I made exactly? Thanks.

I don't know how much time is spent on religion,I have never asked,I would think its down to the individual teacher,some teachers have no religion themselves so they will do the bare minimum.

So you're talking about something you know nothing about then? Not surprising me here.

and who wants their child not to have fun and to stand out like a sore thumb,oh dear,that would be Shrap.

I don't think your education or your catholic upbringing has exactly stood to you here Mary.

looksee

Delirium wrote: »

But the admissions policy that you support creates the scenario where non-Catholic children may be required to receive their school in another village/town.

Mary is making the point that if people accepted the way things are and went along with the religious stuff they would be able to get their children into any school they wanted. In not accepting it they create the necessity for their children to be taken outside their community. Logic 101

robindch

Mod:

Mary63 wrote: »

Why didn't your children just bring their nintendo or iPad to school,thats what the children in our school who aren't making their communion or confirmation do,these would be immigrant children,the Irish children all insist on making the sacraments because they get lots of money and who wants their child not to have fun and to stand out like a sore thumb,oh dear,that would be Shrap.

Mary - I'm not sure if you had time to read my friendly note above. Perhaps you were too busy.

In any case, before posting again, you might want to read the Forum Charter and specifically the first rule, which suggests that you should really try to avoid making personal comments.

The comment I've quoted above steps over that line and I suggest that you step back onside again to avoid having one of the forum's moderating team having to lend a hand, or a card.

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

Most of the people coming to this country are probably Eastern European and many are Catholic.We are going to see enormous numbers of Muslims and don't think for one minute that they won't choose a single sex catholic school above all other options.

So non-nationals, be they Christian or Muslim, will collectively choose a Catholic school rather than a secular school?

Have you anything to back up this amazing claim?

The other parents aren't embarrassed shrap,not one bit.They think deep down you are making a fuss over nothing and they feel sorry for your child,won't someone think of the children.

Suggesting that children have equal access to education is "making a fuss over nothing"???

I don't know how much time is spent on religion,I have never asked,I would think its down to the individual teacher,some teachers have no religion themselves so they will do the bare minimum.

AFAIK, 30 minutes daily has to be spent on religion. Which is generally faith formation and the world through the Roman Catholic lens.

Why didn't your children just bring their nintendo or iPad to school,thats what the children in our school who aren't making their communion or confirmation do,these would be immigrant children,the Irish children all insist on making the sacraments because they get lots of money and who wants their child not to have fun and to stand out like a sore thumb,oh dear,that would be Shrap.

It's interesting that you're framing the discussion as "Irish=Catholic", which is a crock btw. Being a member of the RCC is not a requirement to be considered Irish.

And it's a bit rich that you state another poster wants their child to stick out like a sore thumb while supporting the possibility of that child having to go to school in a different town just because they're not Catholic.

Skrynesaver

Cabaal wrote: »

No offense taken at all,,
But to be fair many people see Catholics as untrustworthy as well,

After all, how else do you view people that support the Catholic Church, the same church that had rules and guidelines in place at the highest level to ensure that when a priest abused a child the child would be sworn to silence and the priest would be moved on to abuse other children in other parishes.

The very fact that many Catholics believe the catholic church is fit to run 92% of our school system is extremely worrying. But there you go with all have our views of people and their faults.

Thankfully I don't support an organization that abused children and sold babies for profit, so atleast I can sleep at night.

Given the doctrine of intentional deception mental reservation, it's hardly surprising if some of us consider them to be a bit shifty...

Shrap

Delirium wrote: »

AFAIK, 30 minutes daily has to be spent on religion. Which is generally faith formation and the world through the Roman Catholic lens.

Plus the 2-3 hrs per week in the months coming up to communion or confirmation. Teachers have told me how difficult it is to try and cover the curriculum at the same time, while parents complain about the extra homework during those months.

And it's a bit rich that you state another poster wants their child to stick out like a sore thumb while supporting the possibility of that child having to go to school in a different town just because they're not Catholic.

Yeah, that's gas alright. I'm slammed for not "letting" my Irish kids participate in something they're not allowed to participate in, even if I wanted them to. I'm unbaptised myself. And that I sent them to their local school - how very dare I? :rolleyes:

Mary63

Apologies Robindch.

Ireland is a Catholic country,the same way as Italy is and Portugal and Spain are.

Naturally enough most of the schools are going to be Catholic too even if its just in name only.

I have no idea what teachers are doing spending two to three hours per week preparing children for communion or confirmation,I would have thought three hours in the whole year would have been sufficient,maybe the teachers need to review their teaching skills.

Most parents though just love the Holy Communion and the preparation has always been done in school,I can't see any reason to change this unless the parents associations in Catholic schools are urged by the majority of parents to do so.It isn't something that causes any parents I know any angst at all,they are more bothered about having to take leave to bring their children to and from the church during school time,what the children are doing in the church doesn't bother most parents at all.

Even if your children join the scouts they have to leave their non beliefs at the door.My ds spent a lot of time standing outside the church is his little scout uniform with the begging bowl.He and his troup regularly went parading around the church on Paddys day and other days "of Obligation",I didn't mind,it was better than being on the playstation.They went to the Church on Easter Sunday too as part of their organisation,I am sure there were lots of non catholic children in the scouts too,they probably stayed at home for the visits to the church.

PopePalpatine

Why not copy Catholics in the US and get the Church to organise First Communion/Confirmation classes? Or would that be - shock horror - too much responsibility for them?

Mary63

The parents then would have to get involved and most don't want to,they prefer to leave it up to the teachers.Most parents havent a clue what preparation involves,they are too busy booking the photographer,the caterers,the marquee,the bouncing castle,the trip to Disneyland Paris.They have been saving for this expense since the child was born,all the while moaning about "voluntary contributions".

Some of the parents don't even bother going to the church,the ones that do take non stop photos even if asked not to,they then post the photos on Facebook while the ceremony is going on.They shoot daggers looks at the teachers if their child only gets to light a candle and they criticise the child who gets the starring role.

Its really very harmless and nobody is forcing anyone to take part.The reality though is most Irish parents enjoy the whole charade and they aren't going to want it removed from the school so they won't vote for any change.

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

The parents then would have to get involved and most don't want to,they prefer to leave it up to the teachers.Most parents havent a clue what preparation involves,they are too busy booking the photographer,the caterers,the marquee,the bouncing castle,the trip to Disneyland Paris.They have been saving for this expense since the child was born,all the while moaning about "voluntary contributions".

Some of the parents don't even bother going to the church,the ones that do take non stop photos even if asked not to,they then post the photos on Facebook while the ceremony is going on.They shoot daggers looks at the teachers if their child only gets to light a candle.
and they criticise the child who gets the starring role.

Its really very harmless and nobody is forcing anyone to take part.The reality though is most Irish parents enjoy the whole charade and they aren't going to want it removed from the school so they won't vote for any change.

so non-Catholic children have to contend with unequal access to education because some parents are too lazy to take care of the religious upbringing of their child. Then the state is being used as a substitute due to said laziness.

but it's all "very harmless". I mean it's only giving preferential treatment to Catholic children. Nobody wants to ruin a families day at the local church just so all children are treated equally with regard to education. Just sit down and keep quiet. Let the Catholics enjoy their "charade". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

Apologies Robindch.

Thanks. Oh wait....nope, I didn't get any apology. Shall I take it that you did apologise to me and carry on then? Alrighty.

I have no idea what teachers are doing spending two to three hours per week preparing children for communion or confirmation,I would have thought three hours in the whole year would have been sufficient,maybe the teachers need to review their teaching skills.

Have you ever seen a teacher spending time getting ready for a school play? They have to pull together an event where children of all different behaviours and abilities all know their lines, their songs, their cues and are practiced enough at the play to feel comfortable and confident in their roles. Very same thing as preparing kids for the two C's. Three hours in the whole year does not cut it and if you think it does then you're not making fans of any teachers here, who in both producing school plays and producing faith rituals, put in waay above and beyond the call of duty. However, the difference is that school play practice generally happens after school and doesn't take away from the curriculum.

Most parents though just love the Holy Communion and the preparation has always been done in school,I can't see any reason to change this unless the parents associations in Catholic schools are urged by the majority of parents to do so.It isn't something that causes any parents I know any angst at all,they are more bothered about having to take leave to bring their children to and from the church during school time,what the children are doing in the church doesn't bother most parents at all.

Isn't that what I said? The only parents who have to take their children anywhere (home) in my local school are the ones who's kids are not attending the church.

Also, you're appealing to tradition. Tradition has a whole lot to answer for in this country and luckily this is a democracy, so we can change the way things are done and throw "tradition" out the window if we so desire (as a people).

Oh, and that's not the way PA's work (having been the Chairperson of the PA of my local RCC school for a number of years, I know this). Any parent is entitled to bring an issue to the attention of the parent's rep, who will advise that parent what way to go about pursuing their issue, for example, writing a letter to the B.O.M. who will have to address it within a time-limit. The PA does not have to wait for the majority of parents to alert them to an issue before addressing it.

Even if your children join the scouts they have to leave their non beliefs at the door.

It is a choice whether to send your child to scouts or not. RCC school, not so much. Not at all in my area.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

The parents then would have to get involved and most don't want to,they prefer to leave it up to the teachers.Most parents havent a clue what preparation involves

Well spotted. So, for this reason, it's ok for the non-religious kids in any school to have such a difference made of them during school hours to cater to these parent's whims?

robindch

Delirium wrote: »

[...] Just sit down and keep quiet [...]

You can be sure that if there were schools controlled by atheists and that the kids of catholics were subject to indoctrination by atheists, that catholics would be setting up a howl like a lorry-load of cats on fire - claiming persecution, no respect for their beliefs, speaking out bravely about indoctrination and the whole palaver.

However, since the shoe is on the foot it's on, the religious are quite happy to be selectively blind, stick two fingers up to everybody who's not in their religious club and frankly, just stick their fingers in their ears and go la-la-la to each other.

Mary63

Apologies shrap if anything i posted caused you offence.

Parents do have to take time off to drop their children to church and to collect them so its not just you who is inconvenienced when the class are taken to the church.

The point you are all missing is that you want to impose your point of view on other people and you are in the tiny tiny minority.

Surely your main objective like mine should be to get the best possible school for your child so they can thrive.If you set up an Athiest school and its excellent I will send my child there.I won't like the fact that he will be told there is no God and religion is all mumbo jumbo and when he comes home I will say that may or may not be true.I won't go out of my way to be offended though and nor will I insist that all the happy atheist parents are to stop talking about their beliefs.

Rome wasn't built in a day and nor will anything be dismantled overnight,as parents your duty is to access the best opportunity for your child and let them get on with their education,the good and bad bits.It would be far more productive to fight for proper supports within the schools for every child and put the religion question on the back burner.Your child will have no interest in religion if you don't so he isn't going to absorb any doctrine taught anyway.

YOu are the parent making sure your child stands out shrap and not me and its because of your whims,your child could just as easily join in the class like mine do,what right have you to decide for him what he listens to.Have you ever asked him would he prefer to stay with his friends while religion is being taught.Why don't you let him make up his own mind.My Ds sat through religion in school and he is an atheist now.

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

Apologies sharp if anything i posted caused you offence.

Parents do have to take time off to drop their children to church and to collect them so its not just you who is inconvenienced when the class are taken to the church.

The point you are all missing is that you want to impose your point of view on other people and you are in the tiny tiny minority.

Surely your main objective like mine should be to get the best possible school for your child so they can thrive.If you set up an Athiest school and its excellent I will send my child there.I won't like the fact that he will be told there is no God and religion is all mumbo jumbo and when he comes home I will say that may or may not be true.I won't go out of my way to be offended though and nor will I insist that all the happy atheist parents are to stop talking about their beliefs.

Rome wasn't built in a day and nor will anything be dismantled overnight,as parents your duty is to access the best opportunity for your child and let them get on with their education,the good and bad bits.It would be far more productive to fight for proper supports within the schools for every child and put the religion question on the back burner.Your child will have no interest in religion if you don't so he isn't going to absorb any doctrine taught anyway.

really?

Poll indicates three-quarters of parents want change in primary school patronage

A NEW POLL commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals Network has shown that three out of four parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice.

looksee

I am out of this discussion until the picnic has been packed away.

PopePalpatine

Mary63 wrote: »

Apologies shrap if anything i posted caused you offence.

Parents do have to take time off to drop their children to church and to collect them so its not just you who is inconvenienced when the class are taken to the church.

The point you are all missing is that you want to impose your point of view on other people and you are in the tiny tiny minority.

Surely your main objective like mine should be to get the best possible school for your child so they can thrive.If you set up an Athiest school and its excellent I will send my child there.I won't like the fact that he will be told there is no God and religion is all mumbo jumbo and when he comes home I will say that may or may not be true.I won't go out of my way to be offended though and nor will I insist that all the happy atheist parents are to stop talking about their beliefs.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - none (or at least a negligible minority) of us who want secular schools want to use the indoctrination tactics used by Catholics in Catholic schools.

YOu are the parent making sure your child stands out shrap and not me and its because of your whims,your child could just as easily join in the class like mine do,what right have you to decide for him what he listens to.Have you ever asked him would he prefer to stay with his friends while religion is being taught.Why don't you let him make up his own mind.My Ds sat through religion in school and he is an atheist now.

So, by your "logic" a Buddhist/Hindu/Jew/Sikh etc. sending their child to a non-ET school (probably because the nearest one is either too far away or oversubscribed) making sure their child stands out by not taking part in Christian sacraments is ensured to stand out because of their parents' actions, and not because you lot need to have an iron grip on this country's education system? The only thing making you better than the racist rednecks who screamed "REEEEEEEEEEEE INTEGRAYSHUN!111!!" when segregation in US schools was ended is that you're not joining a mob that needs to be separated from children of the wrong religion by an armed guard.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

Apologies sharp if anything i posted caused you offence.

I'm only sorry I had to bring it to your attention that you claimed I wanted either of my children to stick out like a sore thumb. That effect would not be my first choice as a parent, clearly. I was given no choice but for them to have a difference made of them in their own school. Which is rather the point I've been making here.

The point you are all missing is that you want to impose your point of view on other people and you are in the tiny tiny minority (of people who stand up for their lack of belief in a deity).

I accept that we atheists are a tiny, tiny minority. Now, will you take my point that it is not just atheists who are effected here? Ireland, in becoming more multi-cultural, has a choice. Either channel all religions and none into new schools of their particular ethos (which is unworkable and unnecessary, given the number of schools funded by the tax-payer already), or slowly and steadily take religious patronage out of the picture so that nobody is either ghettoised into religious catagories or discriminated against in admissions.

Surely your main objective like mine should be to get the best possible school for your child so they can thrive.

Of course, which is why my local school in my community was the best possible choice for my child with special needs. It still is. He is going to the local RCC secondary now, where he gets the best care and attention I could hope for (in Ireland). However, in my fight for services in both these schools and in my advocating for other children with special needs, I am simultaneously able to point out religious discrimination where I see it. Multi-tasking. I am all over that, believe me. And the status quo never sat comfortably with me. If nobody ever tried to change that, we still would be living in the past, wouldn't we?

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

YOu are the parent making sure your child stands out shrap and not me and its because of your whims,your child could just as easily join in the class like mine do,what right have you to decide for him what he listens to.Have you ever asked him would he prefer to stay with his friends while religion is being taught.Why don't you let him make up his own mind.My Ds sat through religion in school and he is an atheist now.

Woah. I missed this bit due to your edit.

Are you for real? In your first sentence you apologise for "any offence caused" and then go on to cause this kind of offence? What T.F. do you take me for? Your comment is outrageous.

And for what it's worth (which is clearly not much, seeing as you appear to assume that I'm a sh1t parent), my eldest did join in the communion and confirmation choirs because he wanted to. I could no more let him make those rituals than you could let your kids make their fecking bar mitzvah . Wrong bloody religion, in case you hadn't noticed. :mad: My youngest didn't want to join in at all.

Shrap

looksee wrote: »

I am out of this discussion until the picnic has been packed away.

There's a few sandwiches missing alright :rolleyes:

Mary63

I would let my child make a bar mitzvah if it meant he could get a school place above another child,my childs education is more important to me than religion,any religion and its the same with most parents.

Of course your son should have joined in the school choir whether he wanted to or not,that is basic courtesy to his classmates who were celebrating a ceremony important to them.

All religion is the same to me and i respect others beliefs and non beliefs.Maybe just try going with the flow and be thankful you live in a country where education is free and excellent and you have the privilege to worry about your child learning some prayers.Its such a first world problem really when you look at what is going on in the world.

People who are religious are generally the most happy among us too.

Where is Robin gone,i thought we weren't supposed to pass personal comments.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

Where is Robin gone,i thought we weren't supposed to pass personal comments.

I apologise for implying you're a few sandwiches short of a picnic. However, like you, I reserve the right to trash my apology by not really meaning it. G'luck now. I can't any longer engage with someone who claims they'd let their child sign up to a religion they don't believe in, in order to score academic points.

recedite

Mary63 wrote: »

Newpark Comprehensive,a very big school in Dublin gives priority to ET together children before children from other local primary schools. It also prioritises non Catholic children and the one Atheist family I know sends their children there too.

Newpark is a protestant school, and is also a free education school.
It is interesting that they are now giving priority to pupils from ET schools as well as to protestants. Website. I presume they see the ET schools as promoting a similar "liberal" type ethos to Newpark itself.
The first ET secondary schools have only started to appear recently, and the debate about whether to give priority access to ET primary schools is/was not a foregone conclusion. Obviously there is a temptation to "redress the balance" by giving priority, but the founding principles of these schools was simply "first come first served".

What are we going to do about the protestant schools and the muslim schools in this religion free Utopia, we are most certainly going to have to make sure they are secular too....
We cant allow them to continue to be run along religious lines while the teachers salaries are being paid and if we don't pay the teachers salaries these schools will close down,all these pupils will then have their entire education funded by the taxpayer and this is going to cost millions.

I don't agree they would close down. They would have a choice; to be totally private and elitist, while retaining whatever discriminatory policies, or else join the state free education system. It wouldn't cost the state much extra because the state already pumps money into the private school sector. The parents only top-up that money to obtain their superior facilities. The situation at the moment is that some of them are being allowed to enter the free system, while still retaining a private ethos.
Hence we need more of a separation between public and private schools.
Public schools should be free, have a secular or neutral ethos, and no discrimination against, or priority access for, selected groups.

Most of the protestant secondary schools are fee paying and the State help with the fees because its cheaper to do this than build enough secondary schools.You would have some chance of wresting schools from the Catholic Church,you would have no chance at all imposing a secular education on our Protestant brethren,they are a very powerful force and they are watching and waiting.

Well, the above mentioned Newpark is well on its evolutionary way to being secular, so I don't think there would be much of a problem there.

Mary63

Newpark isn't secular at all,I as a Catholic won't get my child in there.I could have enrolled my child in an ET together school so he could get priority and then made sure he received catholic sacraments outside school.I would have done this if I had wanted my child to go to Newpark,I know lots of children who attended Monkstown ET for this reason and no other.

There is a brand new state of the art school in Greystones,it will take COI children first,I won't have a chance of getting my children in there either.

It would cost the state far more money to take over the private schools than to continue to pay the teachers salaries and let the parents pay the rest of the costs.Fine Gaels support base is professional middle class people and these people want no interference with their private schools so any talk about meaningful change there is hot air,its as hot as the air coming from Diarmuid Martins mouth,he hasn't succeeded in making a single change because while he is ready and willing to divest schools he is being blocked by parents who like the status quo,Diarmuid has admitted this himself.

I don't know where the forty per cent who want change are coming from,the media are making out there is a virtual crusade up and down the country with thousands of parents unhappy with the way things are.You only have to drive by any church this week to see families celebrating with carol services and

nativity plays to know the truth is very different.

I am off to a carol service in my children's school tonight,it will be lovely.The service will begin with a prayer and a welcoming speech from the female rector,the children will sing and play instruments and a collection will be made for a local charity.The hall will be packed.

Why should any of you who want a secular system prevent me from enjoying christian celebrations in a school building I fundraised for.Why should you

prevent a couple of hundred other parents choosing to celebrate their religion,its not my religion but I will enjoy it as much as them.

ETA,so are we all in agreement now that its ok for Athiests to get priority in any new ET secondary school to "redress the balance"but it won't be okay for the Catholic or COI to give priority to those waving a laminated baptismal certificate.

PopePalpatine

Mary63 wrote: »

I don't know where the forty per cent who want change are coming from,the media are making out there is a virtual crusade up and down the country with thousands of parents unhappy with the way things are.You only have to drive by any church this week to see families celebrating with carol services and nativity plays to know the truth is very different.

I am off to a carol service in my children's school tonight,it will be lovely.The service will begin with a prayer and a welcoming speech from the female rector,the children will sing and play instruments and a collection will be made for a local charity.The hall will be packed.

Why should any of you who want a secular system prevent me from enjoying christian celebrations in a school building I fundraised for.Why should you

prevent a couple of hundred other parents choosing to celebrate their religion,its not my religion but I will enjoy it as much as them.

ETA,so are we all in agreement now that its ok for Athiests to get priority in any new ET secondary school to "redress the balance"but it won't be okay for the Catholic or COI to give priority to those waving a laminated baptismal certificate.

How many times must it be repeated that none of us who want secular schools want a complete ban on religion? Secular schools won't stop you from organising a carol service/nativity play on your own, but then again I suppose years of blindly swallowing Catholic dogma might erode your confidence in your own ability to do things by yourself.

You said you had a daughter who's now an atheist - why not put yourself in her shoes? Why not try to imagine what she has to go through just to secure an education for her own children?

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

ETA,so are we all in agreement now that its ok for Athiests to get priority in any new ET secondary school to "redress the balance"but it won't be okay for the Catholic or COI to give priority to those waving a laminated baptismal certificate.

Do you read what is posted before responding? Posters have been saying that schools shouldn't discriminate based on religion (or lack of) of children.

But you somehow take it to mean that it's okay to do it as long as it's slanted against Christians?

RobbieTheRobber

Mary63 wrote: »

People who are religious are generally the most happy among us too.

Do you really believe this?
If so how are you ignoring the history of violence perpetrated by religious people?
Without even leaving this small island of ours we can look north at a legacy of violence perpetrated in the name of two different versions of christianity. Were all these religous people who murdered catholics for being catholics and protestants for being protestants all the while claiming to believe in one or the other faith the most happy amongst us?

Are you going to ignore the abuse to children by religious orders or the terrible treatment of women whose only crime was to be unwed and alive in ireland during the 20th century and the subsequent treatment of their children by religious orders.

What about the current trending flavour of religion islam. A religion who has members so happy they are willing to murder innocent people to prove to their god how worthy they are.

Im going to stop naming particular groupings of religious people here, but if you want to name a particular religious sect who you feel are more worthy of your happiest people claim please do and I will happily respond to any such claims you make on their behalf.

So are all these religious people really the most happy amongst us?
IF you still claim they are happy should we really hold up their happiness as a positive thing?

RobbieTheRobber

Mary63 wrote: »

ETA,so are we all in agreement now that its ok for Athiests to get priority in any new ET secondary school to "redress the balance"but it won't be okay for the Catholic or COI to give priority to those waving a laminated baptismal certificate.

All the parents whose children attend ET schools are not atheists, ET schools do not discriminate on religon. So your argument here is based on a fallacy you are creating to support your argument.

This school giving preference to an ET school is in no way different to the way most primary schools in this country are feeder schools for secondary schools.

Let me tell you what I want which has nothing to do with stopping people from attending carol sessions in their own free time.

I want four year olds to be treated equally by the state and by bodies funded by the state. I want discrimination on religious grounds made illegal in Ireland. I want article 9 of the human rights to apply to school admissions policies in this state.

byhookorbycrook

meeeeh wrote: »

So the easiest thing is to remove patronage from all state schools and only allow enrolment on geographical basis and maybe if siblings are already there.
.

Doesn't look like that's a given. Have a look at this:


http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland.html

"A school can identify a specific cohort within the community as its target client base and develop admissions and other policies to support provision for that cohort."

meeeeh

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Doesn't look like that's a given. Have a look at this:


http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland.html

"A school can identify a specific cohort within the community as its target client base and develop admissions and other policies to support provision for that cohort."

Oh I know. The simple solutions are usually the hardest to implement.

I think that current system is just heading towards bigger segregation of kids. It's ironic that more pluralistic approach actually means less inclusive system. Private schools with different patrons are grand because they cater for relatively small percentage of kids but public schools should be more neutral to enable equal right of access. Personally I think that is more important than scraping religion in schools. If you allow more mixed access school policies will start adapting.

expectationlost

point about Newpark priority for (~nearby) ET schools is interesting. Admissions-Policy http://newparkschool.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Admissions-Policy-June-2015.pdf

I wonder if there any other secondary schools that leave any nearby COI schools out of their feeder list

byhookorbycrook

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh I know. The simple solutions are usually the hardest to implement.

I think that current system is just heading towards bigger segregation of kids. It's ironic that more pluralistic approach actually means less inclusive system. Private schools with different patrons are grand because they cater for relatively small percentage of kids but public schools should be more neutral to enable equal right of access. Personally I think that is more important than scraping religion in schools. If you allow more mixed access school policies will start adapting.

I urge everyone to respond to the "consultation" the repercussions of the above are incredible. It's a charter to allow schools to cherry pick on any number of grounds.

Mary63

PopePalpatine wrote: »

How many times must it be repeated that none of us who want secular schools want a complete ban on religion? Secular schools won't stop you from organising a carol service/nativity play on your own, but then again I suppose years of blindly swallowing Catholic dogma might erode your confidence in your own ability to do things by yourself.

You said you had a daughter who's now an atheist - why not put yourself in her shoes? Why not try to imagine what she has to go through just to secure an education for her own children?

You are missing the point entirely pop palatine,the carol service is a whole school community event organised by the music staff employed by the school and using musical equipment bought by the money fundraised for by parents.The Rector is invited in by parents who want him to celebrate with them,the principal,staff and parents all take part in the service and the hall is packed to the brim.

My son not daughter who is now an atheist will do exactly what I did to ensure the best education for my grandchildren,he will put his childs educational needs before any atheist "mumbo jumbo".When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Please stop referring to parents like me as sheep and following dogma blindly and portraying yourself as an intellectually superior being.Again it isn't just the Catholic Church who want to hold onto schools,it is the Protestant Clergy too and yet they are coming in for no snide remarks at all.You won't persuade people to your way of thinking by sneering at their decisions and their beliefs and you need as many friends as you can get to make any progress.

If the Hindu family were so happy with the secular system in France and they said they were why on earth didn't they stay there.Why didn't they do their research before they came and realise they just couldn't move to an area where school places where at a premium and being of the wrong religion they weren't going to leapfrog over children who had their names down earlier or who already had siblings in the school.They would have had no chance whatsoever of securing an ET place because these places are booked as soon as a child is born.The Department of Education want children in the parish to be accommodated first in any new ET together schools and the Board of Management in these schools are refusing to comply,I can't understand this at all,if the Department and building and running these schools why aren't their instructions being obeyed.

Delirium

We live in a democracy, not a theocracy, so there is no reason why Catholic "mumbo jumbo" should be imposed on students or a requirement to access to a public school funded by the taxpayer.

Also, please make up your mind....

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Please stop referring to parents like me as sheep and following dogma blindly

PopePalpatine

Mary63 wrote: »

You are missing the point entirely pop palatine,the carol service is a whole school community event organised by the music staff employed by the school and using musical equipment bought by the money fundraised for by parents.The Rector is invited in by parents who want him to celebrate with them,the principal,staff and parents all take part in the service and the hall is packed to the brim.

What's stopping the music staff from arranging the carol service on their own? What's stopping you and the rest of the parents who want a carol service from fundraising for it without needing the State's help?

My son not daughter who is now an atheist will do exactly what I did to ensure the best education for my grandchildren,he will put his childs educational needs before any atheist "mumbo jumbo".When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Please stop referring to parents like me as sheep and following dogma blindly and portraying yourself as an intellectually superior being.Again it isn't just the Catholic Church who want to hold onto schools,it is the Protestant Clergy too and yet they are coming in for no snide remarks at all.You won't persuade people to your way of thinking by sneering at their decisions and their beliefs and you need as many friends as you can get to make any progress.

If the Hindu family were so happy with the secular system in France and they said they were why on earth didn't they stay there.Why didn't they do their research before they came and realise they just couldn't move to an area where school places where at a premium and being of the wrong religion they weren't going to leapfrog over children who had their names down earlier or who already had siblings in the school.They would have had no chance whatsoever of securing an ET place because these places are booked as soon as a child is born.

Something's not adding up here.

By any chance, are you referring to the Panickers? They moved to Dublin in 2013, and before then had spent some time living in Limerick. They tried to sign their daughter up for a local school either before/in November 2014.

The Department of Education want children in the parish to be accommodated first in any new ET together schools and the Board of Management in these schools are refusing to comply,I can't understand this at all,if the Department and building and running these schools why aren't their instructions being obeyed.

Do you have any source beyond right-wing Catholic rags that this is the case?

RobbieTheRobber

Mary63 wrote: »

You are missing the point entirely pop palatine,the carol service is a whole school community event organised by the music staff employed by the school and using musical equipment bought by the money fundraised for by parents.The Rector is invited in by parents who want him to celebrate with them,the principal,staff and parents all take part in the service and the hall is packed to the brim.

My son not daughter who is now an atheist will do exactly what I did to ensure the best education for my grandchildren,he will put his childs educational needs before any atheist "mumbo jumbo".When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Please stop referring to parents like me as sheep and following dogma blindly and portraying yourself as an intellectually superior being.Again it isn't just the Catholic Church who want to hold onto schools,it is the Protestant Clergy too and yet they are coming in for no snide remarks at all.You won't persuade people to your way of thinking by sneering at their decisions and their beliefs and you need as many friends as you can get to make any progress.

If the Hindu family were so happy with the secular system in France and they said they were why on earth didn't they stay there.Why didn't they do their research before they came and realise they just couldn't move to an area where school places where at a premium and being of the wrong religion they weren't going to leapfrog over children who had their names down earlier or who already had siblings in the school.They would have had no chance whatsoever of securing an ET place because these places are booked as soon as a child is born.The Department of Education want children in the parish to be accommodated first in any new ET together schools and the Board of Management in these schools are refusing to comply,I can't understand this at all,if the Department and building and running these schools why aren't their instructions being obeyed.

In modern Ireland how anyone can in all honesty use "being of the wrong religion" as a defense for anything seems to me absurd!
Have we not moved beyond such medieval nonsense. To declare that they are of a wrong religion strongly implies you believe there is a right religion (for Ireland).

Should we introduce legislation to stop those of the wrong religions from entering our country?

What should we do with those who are Irish but not of the right religion, should we be forced to flee our home due to the religious persecution of our children?
Should I take my children to secular France if I want an education because I and they are of the wrong religion?

Cabaal

Mary63 wrote: »

I would let my child make a bar mitzvah if it meant he could get a school place above another child,my childs education is more important to me than religion,any religion and its the same with most parents.

So you'd subscribe your kid to the Jewish faith just for school? Or any faith for that matter?
Not sure your child would thank you for having part of his penis cut off just for a school place in a Jewish only school. Seems a very worrying and damaging thing to do to a child.

I know what you are teaching your child, never to stand up for what you do or do not believe in. Just instead bow to broad social pressure and go with the flow. I'm sure such a child will be a fine upstanding pushover in life.

robindch

Allow me to translate:

Mary63 wrote: »

My son not daughter who is now an atheist will do exactly what I did to ensure the best education for my grandchildren,he will put his childs educational needs before any atheist "mumbo jumbo".

Translation: Ok, I concede that it's against his beliefs, but he knows as well as I do that he must choose between being honest to his beliefs or being a social outcast and he's wisely chosen to be privately dishonest.

Mary63 wrote: »

Please stop referring to parents like me as sheep and following dogma blindly and portraying yourself as an intellectually superior being.

Translation: I don't want to answer your question because the answer will make me look silly.

Mary63 wrote: »

Again it isn't just the Catholic Church who want to hold onto schools,it is the Protestant Clergy too and yet they are coming in for no snide remarks at all.

Translation: Ok, I admit the RCC are causing trouble, but there are others causing trouble too - go pick on the small people first, be rude to them, then come back and we can have an adult discussion.

Mary63 wrote: »

You won't persuade people to your way of thinking by sneering at their decisions and their beliefs and you need as many friends as you can get to make any progress.

Translation: I'm in a bigger and tougher gang than you are so get stuffed.

Mary63 wrote: »

Please stop referring to parents like me as sheep [...]

Translation: I only want priests to call religious believers "sheep".

Mary63 wrote: »

You are missing the point entirely

I think popepalatine has made his position quite clear, as have you.

Mary63

Cabaal wrote: »

Spot on,
I got married in a church, set all along it was completely meaningless to me...including to the priest. Even said it on the wedding day to a few people.

This is the biggest hypocrisy of all,I can't believe anyone would leave their beliefs to one side to please their MIL.

I can fully understand anyone swallowing every principle in their body to get their child into the local school with their pals because a childs education is more important than any principle but to start your married life off on something that goes against all you believe is is farcical.

My child wouldn't have to be circumcised to get into the Jewish school in Rathgar,my catholic friend got her catholic son in and its size suits him,he is doing very well there.I am sure he attends lots of bar mitzvah ceremonies with his school pals.

Are we meant to use bullet points while having our chat,I don't like bullet points.

I never encouraged anyone to pick on our protestant brethren,I pointed out that we all seem to be in agreement that it is the catholic church who are causing the problem.If we are having a secular system imposed because a few thousand of us want it then naturally enough religion has to be removed from all schools.You can't discriminate against catholic schools and allow COI,Jewish,Muslims and all other religions to continue as they are.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-in-school-she-feels-excluded-and-different-1.2462201

This is the family I was referring to,they didn't get their first school choice though they probably weren't a wet week in the country,they got a school they have to drive to along with all the other families who didn't get their first choice.They can go back to France in the morning if the system is so perfect there.

Mary63

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-and-educate-together-clash-over-enrolment-1.2327204

This is the evidence popepalatine that ET schools are clashing with the Department of education on a very important issue.

meeeeh

Mary63 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-and-educate-together-clash-over-enrolment-1.2327204

This is the evidence popepalatine that ET schools are clashing with the Department of education on a very important issue.

That problem is there because only schools opened recently (maybe 2012), have to stick to that rule which means most catholic schools don't need to. That should be changed (and if I am not mistaken there is something in the pipeline). That being said I also think their argument is ridiculous. The new schools are opened where there is local need so they should accept local kids first.

Cabaal

Mary63 wrote: »

This is the biggest hypocrisy of all,I can't believe anyone would leave their beliefs to one side to please their MIL.

You've said you'll subscribe your kid to any faith that exists and indoctrinate them in that faith, yet me standing in a room for 30min listening to stuff I know is utter nonsense and I have told even the priest I don't believe is the biggest hypocrisy of all
:pac::pac::pac:

Thor tells me you are getting desperate with your posts now

Are we meant to use bullet points while having our chat,I don't like bullet points.

People can use them if they want,
I guess there's more of us so we can use them and you'll just have to put up with them. If you don't like them post somewhere else on the internet.


See what I did there....

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-and-educate-together-clash-over-enrolment-1.2327204

This is the evidence popepalatine that ET schools are clashing with the Department of education on a very important issue.

It's hardly unreasonable for ET to run a "first come, first served" policy rather than give priority to local children as it would mean that non-Catholics who aren't locals would lose out to local children be they Catholic or not.

They're trying to help out non-Catholic parents whose children are denied access to their local school due to religious discrimination.

mickoneill31

meeeeh wrote: »

That being said I also think their argument is ridiculous. The new schools are opened where there is local need so they should accept local kids first.

It's mental having different set of rules for school entry.
I'm waiting for the news article of a child being put to the bottom of the list and being denied a place in his local school because he's not Catholic then being put to the bottom of the list at his next nearest ET school because he's not local to it.

A think that all schools should serve local kids first but while we're in a situation of religious schools being able to turn away kids then first come first served is probably the more logical policy for Educate Together for the moment.

meeeeh

mickoneill31 wrote: »

It's mental having different set of rules for school entry.
I'm waiting for the news article of a child being put to the bottom of the list and being denied a place in his local school because he's not Catholic then being put to the bottom of the list at his next nearest ET school because he's not local to it.

A think that all schools should serve local kids first but while we're in a situation of religious schools being able to turn away kids then first come first served is probably the more logical policy for Educate Together for the moment.

The problem with that is that schools are only part of infrastructure and new ones are put into areas where there is population growth. How can you do any proper local planning if schools turn away local kids and give priority to those from outside catchment areas. I know it's unfair to some parents but long term there will be more damage done if even new schools are allowed cherry pick.