40% would prefer non-Christian school - Equate Ireland

techdiver

Mary63 wrote: »

My son not daughter who is now an atheist will do exactly what I did to ensure the best education for my grandchildren,he will put his childs educational needs before any atheist "mumbo jumbo".When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Ha Ha.

I nearly choked on my tea when I read this!

A religious zealot calling Atheism "Mumbo Jumbo"!

Mary63

They are discriminating against Catholic children,COI children and new comer children like the Hindu family.

They are basically telling the Department of Education who are funding these schools in their entirety that the Department has no say in the enrolment policies.It looks like any new schools built will be ET together and this form of discrimination should not be tolerated.

These schools are built in areas where there aren't enough school places,local children are then travelling out of their area to fill places in empty schools while the ET school is accepting applications from all around the county.

If this is progressive and inclusive God help us all.These schools are not personal fiefdoms of the board of management,they are educational institutions paid for by taxpayers and the reason they are being built is to cater for local children,the one and only reason.

A child will not be denied a place because he isn't catholic mickoneill,if there is room in any catholic schools after places have been filled according to the enrolment policy every child in the parish will be accepted.There are schools which are oversubscribed so its sibling children first usually,then catholic children and after that its whoever is next on the waiting list.

No child will ever be refused entry to any catholic school because of him having no religion,he will be refused because there isn't room for him due to demand from other children who meet the enrolment requirements.Its the same with the COI schools,they accommodate their own ethos first but every other child in the parish will be accepted after that if there is room.

I am not a religious zealot at all,I am a practical person who will do whatever it takes to make sure my children get the best educational experience available,religion doesn't enter into the equation at all.

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

They are discriminating against Catholic children,COI children and new comer children like the Hindu family.

They are basically telling the Department of Education who are funding these schools in their entirety that the Department has no say in the enrolment policies.It looks like any new schools built will be ET together and this form of discrimination should not be tolerated.

These schools are built in areas where there aren't enough school places,local children are then travelling out of their area to fill places in empty schools while the ET school is accepting applications from all around the county.

If this is progressive and inclusive God help us all.These schools are not personal fiefdoms of the board of management,they are educational institutions paid for by taxpayers and the reason they are being built is to cater for local children,the one and only reason.

says the person condoning a system that allows for religious discrimination with regard to access to schools:rolleyes:

Cabaal

Mary63 your posts have turned into a farce, here you are calling for discrimination against 5 year olds to remain but then you are outraged when there is discrimination against 5 year olds.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

These schools are not personal fiefdoms of the board of management,they are educational institutions paid for by taxpayers

meeeeh

Delirium wrote: »

says the person condoning a system that allows for religious discrimination with regard to access to schools:rolleyes:

One thing about Catholic schools they were open in the areas and at the time when there was overwhelming majority and demand for catholic schools. They didn't adapt through the time but that shouldn't mean new schools should be allowed to discriminate.

Not just because it's wrong but because it makes absolutely no sense from planning point of view.

recedite

Mary63 wrote: »

Newpark isn't secular at all,I as a Catholic won't get my child in there.I could have enrolled my child in an ET together school so he could get priority and then made sure he received catholic sacraments outside school.I would have done this if I had wanted my child to go to Newpark,I know lots of children who attended Monkstown ET for this reason and no other.

I did say it was a protestant school. But also IMO its ethos has been evolving towards a more secular outlook compared to some other protestant schools.

Mary63 wrote: »

There is a brand new state of the art school in Greystones,it will take COI children first,I won't have a chance of getting my children in there either.

It would cost the state far more money to take over the private schools than to continue to pay the teachers salaries and let the parents pay the rest of the costs.

Templecarrig in Greystones was entirely built and funded by the state, yet it is apparently allowed to practice religious discrimination (or at least nobody has yet forced them to change the admission policy). I agree that is a ridiculous situation, but it does not back up your argument that "it would cost the state more" to get rid of religious discrimination. In this example it is costing the state exactly the same (ie 100% of the school's costs)

Mary63 wrote: »

ETA,so are we all in agreement now that its ok for Athiests to get priority in any new ET secondary school to "redress the balance"but it won't be okay for the Catholic or COI to give priority to those waving a laminated baptismal certificate.

Well no, we are not all in agreement. The only secondary school you have shown us giving priority to ET primary schools is a protestant school.

Within the ET people themselves there is ongoing debate. The link you gave showed ongoing discussion with Dept of Ed for future policy in new schools. Even then, nobody is talking about priority for athiests. It would be priority for ET primary pupils in ET secondary schools. As religion (or lack of it) is not a concern for admission to the primary schools, the pupils could be from a variety of faith backgrounds.

This is a classic case of some people wanting to react against discrimination by introducing their own. Human nature being what it is, it is a bit much to ask ET primary school parents to turn the other cheek, ie to be the victims of discrimination when they apply to other secondary schools, but not to give any priority to "their own" in a future ET secondary school.

The Admissions to Schools bill 2015 that is currently going before the Dail might have addressed the issue in some way, but has now been shelved until after the next election.

Now is the time for the state to face up to its responsibilities; to step in and end all discrimination in publicly funded schools.

meeeeh

Delirium wrote: »

says the person condoning a system that allows for religious discrimination with regard to access to schools:rolleyes:

In fairness her argument is exactly the same than other people's who want other but local kids be prioritized in local et (or any other) schools.

recedite

Mary63 wrote: »

No child will ever be refused entry to any catholic school because of him having no religion,he will be refused because there isn't room for him due to demand from other children who meet the enrolment requirements.Its the same with the COI schools,they accommodate their own ethos first but every other child in the parish will be accepted after that if there is room.

Well that's a problem right there.
Now, has there ever been a single case of a child from a religious family being refused a place in an ET school because children of a no-faith background got priority and took all the school places?

Mary63

I am a democrat and the majority of parents in this country are happy with the present system,you simply cannot impose a secular system on parents who don't want it.It doesn't matter how many friends you have in the media to tell you otherwise.

Diarmuid Martin is on record as saying the system is unfair and he would give schools away if he could,he means really he will give disadvantaged schools away and not schools in Dublin 4.

As far as I know when local people were consulted the vast majority refused to hand their schools over,what do we do in the face of this,simply remove all patronage in the face of local opposition because a minority want that.Do we compensate the patrons of the various schools or just compulsorily acquire their buildings and assets.If the parents have fund raised tirelessly to build extensions and to equip the school and the school is forcibly divested who is going to compensate them.

Who is going to take on the private schools,they can't be allowed to opt out if the teachers salaries are being paid by the Government.The Government have already backed down on school waiting lists,these were to be abolished but Fine Gael voters will not allow interference with private schools.Dont forget also Gonzaga College which is a jesuit fee paying school sends huge numbers of its students into the legal profession,do you think for one minute they want any changes forced on Gonzaga.The Constitution and all its bits and pieces relating to private property rights and freedom of religion provisions will be examined carefully,this country is not France or Russia and irish people don't like too much State interference with their traditions.

Where there is a will there is a way but unfortunately there is no real desire in Government circles for any change,the politicans will look at the numbers,count the votes and throw up a few more ET schools and we will carry on as we are.

Mary63

My child will be refused entry to Newpark because the children feeding from the ET primary school have priority on Newparks enrolment policy.These children could be coming from up to thirty miles away and children within the parish won't get a place.

I won't get a place in my local ET school even though I live across the road,the places are all gone because other parents applied from the Coombe.The fact that they are travelling from outside the parish is neither here nor there,I will be told that is how the ET school works.There will be loads of parents on that waiting list who have baptised their child and who go to mass regularly,they choose Monkstown ET because it feeds to Newpark and Newpark is a brand new school totally funded by the taxpayer.

I have no problem with what the parents on the ET waiting list are doing,I would do the same myself.

The Admissions to school bill has been shelved permanently,how many of the politicians have been privately educated,quite a few.They would have got earfuls of abuse from powerful constituents and Enda would have been told to shut his reforming minister up.Diarmuid is allowed to say only so much too and then he is invited to Rome,he keeps quiet for a good while every time he comes back from the Vatican,poor Diarmuid,he is a very decent human being.

The Protestant community are a minority religion and taxpayers too.They have been paying out of their own taxed income for years so their children can be educated through their own ethos,they put their hands in their own pockets because their principles were so important to them.

There is nothing whatsoever to stop Athiest Ireland setting up and funding their own schools just like the Protestants and Methodists did,the state will pay the teachers salaries and the parents fund the rest.

I thought it was about time the Government built a new free secondary school for Protestants,this is what the Protestants wanted,they don't want a secular form of education,they want the freedom to send their children to a school of their choice,this is their right under the Constitution or it was the last time I checked.

robindch

Mary63 wrote: »

I am a democrat [...]

Only in the sense that "Might is Right" - you've shown here quite adequately that you don't care about minorities you don't belong to and you're certainly not interested in either listening to real problems, or coming up with real solutions.

RobbieTheRobber

Mary63 wrote: »

I am a democrat and the majority of parents in this country are happy with the present system,you simply cannot impose a secular system on parents who don't want it.It doesn't matter how many friends you have in the media to tell you otherwise.

Diarmuid Martin is on record as saying the system is unfair and he would give schools away if he could,he means really he will give disadvantaged schools away and not schools in Dublin 4.

As far as I know when local people were consulted the vast majority refused to hand their schools over,what do we do in the face of this,simply remove all patronage in the face of local opposition because a minority want that.Do we compensate the patrons of the various schools or just compulsorily acquire their buildings and assets.If the parents have fund raised tirelessly to build extensions and to equip the school and the school is forcibly divested who is going to compensate them.

Who is going to take on the private schools,they can't be allowed to opt out if the teachers salaries are being paid by the Government.The Government have already backed down on school waiting lists,these were to be abolished but Fine Gael voters will not allow interference with private schools.Dont forget also Gonzaga College which is a jesuit fee paying school sends huge numbers of its students into the legal profession,do you think for one minute they want any changes forced on Gonzaga.The Constitution and all its bits and pieces relating to private property rights and freedom of religion provisions will be examined carefully,this country is not France or Russia and irish people don't like too much State interference with their traditions.

Where there is a will there is a way but unfortunately there is no real desire in Government circles for any change,the politicans will look at the numbers,count the votes and throw up a few more ET schools and we will carry on as we are.

You as an individual cannot presume to speak for the majority, I am unsure what proclaiming yourself a democrat means in regard to this discussion.

As a citizen of Ireland I do not care what diarmuid martin the leader of a private organisation has to say in the least.

When were local people consulted? I at no time in my life either as adult or as a child have ever been consulted regarding schools, nor has my mother/father.

I will not speak for other posters but initially i am not even seeking the removal of patrons from the management of schools. I am seeking my child's human rights to be protected in Ireland.
I am seeking the end to discrimination on religious grounds.
I will happily remove my child during religious education so long as my child is not deprived access to school based purely on membership of religious sect.

How any of the so called "most happy among us" can in good conscience treat 4 year olds in the manner they do and proclaim that this is to protect their ethos I cannot understand.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

Do we compensate the patrons of the various schools or just compulsorily acquire their buildings and assets.

Nope, not the patrons who are meant to be compensating us, remember? And the rest would be very affordable, considering the RCC monopoly on our state schooling.

If the parents have fund raised tirelessly to build extensions and to equip the school and the school is forcibly divested who is going to compensate them.

Well, as a parent who not only fundraised tirelessly, but co-ordinated the entire refurbishment of our local school, I'm personally not looking for compensation. And what would the compensation be for exactly? For our state schools becoming patronised by the state? For non-curricular activities being divested to after school hours? For children being taught about religion rather than taught one particular religious belief is true? Why on earth would you compensate people who wouldn't be losing anything?

Mary63

When divestment was proposed local people were consulted robbietherobber,does anyone know did any school express a wish to be divested.As far as i remember the idea went down like a head balloon.

I definitely know our school would give a resounding big fat No.Parents quite simply don't give a hoot whose patronage the school is under,they care about class sizes,about resources teachers,about pre school and after school childcare facilities,they care about Drumcondra tests and about their childs progress,the simply couldn't care less if your child hasn't a place because you don't have a baptismal Cert,thats your problem and they aren't going to give up their childs place so your problem is sorted.

Its the same probably in every school up and down the country,if there is an ET together school parents might go for that because its fashionable and trendy,if you asked the parents what is the difference between that and the other catholic school they wouldn't know.The first question some will ask at the open day is how is the Holy communion celebrated.They won't really like the teachers going by their first names and nor will they like the lack of uniform,this to them is the real difference to the catholic school across the road.

A lot of the parents will change their mind when they see the numbers of immigrant children with no english,there will be the same number in the catholic school if the schools aren't over subscribed,these parents will take to their heels then and take up a place in the Gaelscoile,they won't even ask who is the patron of the Gaelscoile,they won't care.

recedite

Mary63 wrote: »

My child will be refused entry to Newpark because the children feeding from the ET primary school have priority on Newparks enrolment policy....

I won't get a place in my local ET school even though I live across the road,the places are all gone because other parents applied from the Coombe....

I have no problem with what the parents on the ET waiting list are doing,I would do the same myself....

Sounds like you are peeved because you missed the boat and did not apply early enough for the ET school, and now this priority route to Newpark is closed off to you. Its not that you agree with any of the "ethos" or the liberal principles of either ET or Newpark, you just think Newpark has a better name than an alternative free school you are considering.

I'd say both the ET primary school and Newpark had a lucky escape there.

RobbieTheRobber

Mary63 wrote: »

When divestment was proposed local people were consulted robbietherobber,does anyone know did any school express a wish to be divested.As far as i remember the idea went down like a head balloon.

I definitely know our school would give a resounding big fat No.Parents quite simply don't give a hoot whose patronage the school is under,they care about class sizes,about resources teachers,about pre school and after school childcare facilities,they care about Drumcondra tests and about their childs progress,the simply couldn't care less if your child hasn't a place because you don't have a baptismal Cert,thats your problem and they aren't going to give up their childs place so your problem is sorted.

Its the same probably in every school up and down the country,if there is an ET together school parents might go for that because its fashionable and trendy,if you asked the parents what is the difference between that and the other catholic school they wouldn't know.The first question some will ask at the open day is how is the Holy communion celebrated.They won't really like the teachers going by their first names and nor will they like the lack of uniform,this to them is the real difference to the catholic school across the road.

A lot of the parents will change their mind when they see the numbers of immigrant children with no english,there will be the same number in the catholic school if the schools aren't over subscribed,these parents will take to their heels then and take up a place in the Gaelscoile,they won't even ask who is the patron of the Gaelscoile,they won't care.

Mary can you please in order to have an adult discussion stop presuming you know the opinion of and speak on behalf of the majority!

Are you asking did any of the religious patrons of our schools currently, ask to be divested to a secular patron?

Mary63

Im not peeved at all,I wasn't interested in Newpark,I wanted my children to go to a school with a uniform and with excellent facilities,small classes,wide range of subjects.

I never gave the religious ethos any thought at all,I don't go to church and neither do any of my family.We go on Christmas Eve though because we like the nativity play,we also go to the Carol Service,the entire school goes to that and the children love it.I will go to the Carol service in the local church of Ireland tomorrow,its a beautiful service and the note on the church door says everyone welcome.

I didn't take much notice at the time because I knew divestment wast going to happen because of inertia mostly but I thought schools were polled and the majority didn't want to divest.Hasnt Diarmuid Martin said this too,he can't get any schools to divest,maybe someone else knows the current up to date position.

meeeeh

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Mary can you please in order to have an adult discussion stop presuming you know the opinion of and speak on behalf of the majority!

Are you asking did any of the religious patrons of our schools currently, ask to be divested to a secular patron?

There are problems regarding that. I can't remember exquisite how many towns were identified as having enough demand for non religious school (I think 18). That was under Quinn but there is a difference between finding enough interest in the town for one et or other nondenominational school and finding one particular school where there will be enough support for school to be divested.

The reasons are obvious and in a lot of cases have very little to do with religion. That's why I think scraping the patronage system would be by far the cleanest approach.

Btw I actually don't know why there is such a fear of Sunday school approach. I went to completely and very strictly secular school (I even remember having school on Christmas day for a few years) and all the kids in my class except 2 or 3 muslims had RE outside school. Numbers are a bit lower now but I remember talking to my cousin when I was back in my home country that majority of parents were annoyed they have to go to mass when their kids are going to first communion. So the a la carte approach is still as popular as was 30 years ago (my dad would go to mass and pub afterwards but my mum who would class herself as Catholic and is probably more religious would go to mass less than once per year).

robindch

Mary63 wrote: »

[...] simply couldn't care less if your child hasn't a place because you don't have a baptismal Cert, thats your problem [...]

Your inability to see any problem, let alone sympathize, is farcical.

Mary63 wrote: »

[...] if there is an ET together school parents might go for that because its fashionable and trendy [...]

Thankfully, the number of people who believe it's "fashionable and trendy" to refuse a child a place in a school because he/she doesn't have a baptismal cert - well, it's declining sharply.

And while this decline is great news, I can't help but wonder why it's not much faster when one bears in mind the awful trouble the church has had keeping the hands of its employees from sneaking up the trousers and skirts of the nation's children.

Mary63

I met someone earlier and funny enough the topic of schools came.

This persons young relative wanted to go to a Protestant fee paying school because a relative taught there.His relative suggested that he be baptised into the COI,he was a catholic up to twelve years of age.He did this and he got the Protestant grant to go to the fee paying school.

I wonder are lots of people who go to fee paying schools doing this.I often wonder how they can afford the fees.

I do sympathise robindch but only up to a point.When you sit on your moral high ground calling me a sheep my sympathy evaporates,I think you are misguided and fretting over nothing.Quite honestly my children haven't learnt anything about religion in the seven years they have been in school,I doubt if they even know what rosary beads are.

If I have sympathy for anyone its your children who are paying the price for your ideals.They just want to fit in with everyone else and it would be much easier if you just dropped them off to school and let them get on with their day.Let them sit in the religion class,most of it is colouring and drawing pictures of the sky,who do you think is going to brainwash your children,the school staff for the most part are only going to spend the bare minimum of time on religion,the time allocated is only a moveable feast,I would doubt if even twenty minutes a week is spent in reality on religion,its not worth worrying your head about this.

looksee

Mary63 wrote: »

I met someone earlier and funny enough the topic of schools came.

This persons young relative wanted to go to a Protestant fee paying school because a relative taught there.His relative suggested that he be baptised into the COI,he was a catholic up to twelve years of age.He did this and he got the Protestant grant to go to the fee paying school.

I wonder are lots of people who go to fee paying schools doing this.I often wonder how they can afford the fees.

I do sympathise robindch but only up to a point.When you sit on your moral high ground calling me a sheep my sympathy evaporates,I think you are misguided and fretting over nothing.Quite honestly my children haven't learnt anything about religion in the seven years they have been in school,I doubt if they even know what rosary beads are.

If I have sympathy for anyone its your children who are paying the price for your ideals.They just want to fit in with everyone else and it would be much easier if you just dropped them off to school and let them get on with their day.Let them sit in the religion class,most of it is colouring and drawing pictures of the sky,who do you think is going to brainwash your children,the school staff for the most part are only going to spend the bare minimum of time on religion,the time allocated is only a moveable feast,I would doubt if even twenty minutes a week is spent in reality on religion,its not worth worrying your head about this.

I said I was gone from this 'discussion', but this is rubbish. In neither the Roman Catholic church or Anglican Communion can a person be baptised twice.

Edit: and they are not really likely to have learned about rosary beads in a Cof I school.

Mary63

My children went to a catholic primary school,it was the nearest school to the front door and they were baptised so no problem getting them in.

The child who is now in secondary school is going to a church of ireland secondary school,it convenient and its a good school.I know the school would rather not have any catholic children at all and they only take us if they have offered a place to every protestant child who has applied.

I might send the next child to Rosemount which is an Opus Dei Girls school,she will do scholarships for any school that offer them and if she gets a scholarship we will take it wherever it is.

I think the boy was baptised,his sister was baptised the day before she made her communion,I presumed her brother was baptised too,Im nearly positive he was.He baptised Church of Ireland now anyway and is in a brilliant school paying only a portion of the fees.I didn't know this was possible,I might have looked into it myself but maybe I couldn't do it if you can't baptise a child twice.

Can you not formally resign from a church and be baptised into another one,where does it say you can't be baptised twice.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

I might send the next child to Rosemount which is an Opus Dei Girls school,she will do scholarships for any school that offer them and if she gets a scholarship we will take it wherever it is.

For someone as willing to send your own daughter to be educated by the most conservative (backwardly moralistic, sexually repressive, proponents of "a woman's place" and potentially dangerous) cult wing of the Catholic church....

Can you not formally resign from a church and be baptised into another one,where does it say you can't be baptised twice.

....you don't know much about it, do you?

Nodin

Mary63 wrote: »

Can you not formally resign from a church and be baptised into another one,where does it say you can't be baptised twice.

...in the rules of the COI.
http://ireland.anglican.org/information/13

looksee

You are baptised into Christianity, not into a church.

The Randy Riverbeast

I'm really starting to wonder why Catholics need their own schools, they are teaching something but actual Catholicism is severely lacking by the looks of things.

Shrap

looksee wrote: »

You are baptised into Christianity, not into a church.

Really?! What, you can be Catholic if you're Protestant and v.v. if you want to be? But you can leave the Protestant church, can't you? Excuse my ignorance if I've got that wrong And I'm nearly sure the Catholic church frowns upon Protestants. I should know. I grew up in the division between the two in a "mixed marriage" family.

looksee

Mary63 wrote: »

My children went to a catholic primary school,it was the nearest school to the front door and they were baptised so no problem getting them in.

The child who is now in secondary school is going to a church of ireland secondary school,it convenient and its a good school.I know the school would rather not have any catholic children at all and they only take us if they have offered a place to every protestant child who has applied.

I might send the next child to Rosemount which is an Opus Dei Girls school,she will do scholarships for any school that offer them and if she gets a scholarship we will take it wherever it is.

earlier:

My children have never come home from school with a disdain for any religion,in fact some of their Muslim friends attend their ceremonies to celebrate alongside them.I am Catholic but my children attend a COI school and they attend their friends confirmation celebrations.

You need to keep better notes on your stories Mary

Mary63

Thanks Nodin,

The link says you can't be baptised twice but I think it means you can't be baptised into the Church Of Ireland twice,I don't think it means you can't leave the Catholic Church and be baptised for the first time into the COI.

It was a church of Ireland person working in the school who suggested that the boy be baptised into the COI so he could get the grant,the boy and this school employee were distantly related.

If you apply to the church of Ireland and ask to be baptised in how would they know if you had been baptised before or not.

Mary63

I have children in the plural look see,the ones in secondary school attend their friends confirmations,COI children make their confirmation in secondary school and their catholic friends often go along to the ceremonies and to the parties afterwards.

My children haven't a clue what religion their friends are and have never asked.They know in second year who is Church of Ireland because this is when the COI children make their confirmation,

There are Muslim children in my children's catholic primary school and some of the little girls wore a white dress and come to the Communion ceremonies.They also go along to the confirmation ceremony and would be invited to the family celebrations afterwards.Its all very civilised,no one cares really what religion other people are.Muslims themselves are deeply religious and do have respect for other peoples religious traditions,in my experience anyway.

Shrap

Mary63 wrote: »

It was a church of Ireland person working in the school who suggested that the boy be baptised into the COI so he could get the grant,the boy and this school employee were distantly related.

If you apply to the church of Ireland and ask to be baptised in how would they know if you had been baptised before or not.

Do you have ANY respect for the religion you belong to? I mean, on the one hand you're all for keeping the status quo and the religious ethos of schools (because we should all go along with that for an easy life) and on the other hand, you're absolutely fine with signing up to any religion that suits your academic ambitions for your kids by lying about their baptism. Do you not see that you're the one with no respect for religion, and we're the ones taking it seriously enough to disagree with their "sincerely held beliefs"?

Or are those questions too complicated for you to bother answering directly?


.....and by the way, you can't simply leave the CC.

Shrap

Also Mary, if you use the quote option at the bottom of a comment, you'll find it's easier to directly address another person's question. Since you're new here, you might not know that.

looksee

Shrap wrote: »

Really?! What, you can be Catholic if you're Protestant and v.v. if you want to be? But you can leave the Protestant church, can't you? Excuse my ignorance if I've got that wrong And I'm nearly sure the Catholic church frowns upon Protestants. I should know. I grew up in the division between the two in a "mixed marriage" family.

On the subject of Baptism, the RC and Anglican/C of I churches both regard baptism as something that can happen only once, so if you swap churches you are not re-baptised, they recognise each other's baptism, and indeed baptism in quite a few other Protestant churches. In a few cases (Mormons I think are one) the baptism is not recognised for all sorts of 'angels on the head of a pin' reasons, but within the mainstream churches you are only baptised once.

Being baptised does not make you a Catholic, but being baptised into the Catholic Church does, it is not the baptism that counts, it is the ceremonial around it. Yes I realise this sounds contradictory but they manage to work it out to their satisfaction.

What the RC schools are looking for though is a certificate of baptism showing you were baptised in a Catholic Church, they would not be interested in a certificate from any other church.

As to the opinions of RC clergy towards Protestants, I am well aware of the situation, I was a Protestant married to a Catholic (he is still actively Catholic) and I had to sign away my rights to my children's religious upbringing, they had to be brought up as Catholics, and in the wedding ceremony we were not permitted Mass, exchange of rings (I got one), music, flowers or anything beyond the absolute minimum which took 10 minutes from beginning to end. Granted this was over 40 years ago, but no, I was not looked on with any enthusiasm at all.

Nodin

Mary63 wrote: »

Thanks Nodin,

The link says you can't be baptised twice but I think it means you can't be baptised into the Church Of Ireland twice,I don't think it means you can't leave the Catholic Church and be baptised for the first time into the COI.

.

If you read it in detail you'd have seen it only refers to baptism of non-Christians. The COI recognises baptism by the catholic church as perfectly valid and the reverse is also true.

Shrap

looksee wrote: »

As to the opinions of RC clergy towards Protestants, I am well aware of the situation, I was a Protestant married to a Catholic (he is still actively Catholic) and I had to sign away my rights to my children's religious upbringing, they had to be brought up as Catholics, and in the wedding ceremony we were not permitted Mass, exchange of rings (I got one), music, flowers or anything beyond the absolute minimum which took 10 minutes from beginning to end. Granted this was over 40 years ago, but no, I was not looked on with any enthusiasm at all.

Yes, my parents had a similar experience! Neither family would even enter each other's church though and they were married in the door of the Catholic church. I imagine it was also around 10 minutes (very like a registry wedding really ). I was never baptised though, but the mammy also had to lie through her teeth.

And to think there's people who support the continuation of that kind of logic in our country :rolleyes:

looksee

Shrap wrote: »

Do you have ANY respect for the religion you belong to? I mean, on the one hand you're all for keeping the status quo and the religious ethos of schools (because we should all go along with that for an easy life) and on the other hand, you're absolutely fine with signing up to any religion that suits your academic ambitions for your kids by lying about their baptism. Do you not see that you're the one with no respect for religion, and we're the ones taking it seriously enough to disagree with their "sincerely held beliefs"?

I agree with Shrap here, I think the views being expressed by Mary show considerably more disrespect for religion and other people's beliefs than is usually expressed in this forum (other than the funny ha ha thread ) . I don't agree with religious beliefs and I am happy to demonstrate how illogical and unreasonable they are, but I do respect people's right to hold those beliefs.

Unfortunately some people feel reluctantly coerced into baptising their children in order to get them into the local school, which is bad enough, but Mary's attitude seems to bring it to a whole different level of cynicism.

recedite

Mary63 wrote: »

My children haven't a clue what religion their friends are and have never asked.They know in second year who is Church of Ireland because this is when the COI children make their confirmation.

As the confirmation is nothing to do with the school, your children would not necessarily know any more about their friends religion in second year than in any other year.

It really is incredible, the amount of misinformation you are producing in this thread.

Your whole attitude can be summed up by this one motivation;
"How can I play the system to gain some unfair advantage over others"

Mary63

The children would know their friends were making their confirmation because they are invited to the parties afterwards,you know the confirmation parties,have you never been to one.

You can play the system recidite too but your principles are more important to you than your childs education,I am baffled by parents on this thread,what are you achieving really and what does it matter at the end of the day what you believe,its your children who are being disadvantaged while you are on your righteous crusade.How can you sleep at night knowing your child is going to get a place in the school no one else wants to go to.I couldn't in conscience do that to my children for anything.

Where am I disrespecting other peoples religion,I respect everyones beliefs except those belonging to parents who put their own beliefs before their children's best interests,I don't understand this at all.

People aren't reluctantly coerced into getting their child baptised,most people can't wait for this ceremony to show off their baby and to welcome him or her into the community with their own family and friends,its a lovely day out.If people have an objection they can hold off until it comes to going to school time and then have the child baptised in time to get on the waiting list for the school,neither parent nor child need ever set foot in a church again.

No one is going to brainwash your child in school and it sounds like most of the brain washing is going on at home.Nobody least of all poor overworked teachers wants to force any belief on your children,the teachers are ticking boxes and probably spending twenty minutes a week on religion.Your child could go and stand on their head doing yoga for this class if there was anyone floating around to supervise them,they have to sit at the back of the class because there is no where else for them to go and for no other reason.

You could reach a compromise with the schools and offer to set up a rota between you to supervise each others children while religion is being taught,this would be a very proactive measure and a lot more productive than setting up different interest groups to plead your cause.There is so much more wrong with our education system that needs to be rectified and squabbling over little children learning a few prayers with their friends is a waste of time and energy.

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.

eviltwin

Don't know what you are baffled by. Some parents want to raise their kids to have dignity and integrity as well as respect for religious events. What wouldn't you do to get your child into the right school Mary?

Shrap

eviltwin wrote: »

Don't know what you are baffled by. Some parents want to raise their kids to have dignity and integrity as well as respect for religious events. What wouldn't you do to get your child into the right school Mary?

I think Mary's "sincerely held religious beliefs" are that every parent of the prevailing religion deserves a big day out and a pissing contest with each other over who has the best child bride, so we should all stop objecting to the religious discrimination and indoctrination because that's not the important part.

magicbastarder

Mary63 wrote: »

If people have an objection they can hold off until it comes to going to school time and then have the child baptised in time to get on the waiting list for the school,neither parent nor child need ever set foot in a church again.

what i have an objection to is that the state is explicitly supporting the witholding of basic state services - education of 5 year old kids, for pete's sake - based on the 'religion' of the child.
it's that simple, no matter how much you try to dress it up.

frostyjacks

If only 'twere that simple. Truth is, anti-religious parents are using their own kids as pawns in some insane power grab against the Church. The schools are doing a great job as they are, there's no demand to alter things for the foreseeable future.

eviltwin

frostyjacks wrote: »

If only 'twere that simple. Truth is, anti-religious parents are using their own kids as pawns in some insane power grab against the Church. The schools are doing a great job as they are, there's no demand to alter things for the foreseeable future.

How exactly are these children being used as pawns?

The Randy Riverbeast

frostyjacks wrote: »

If only 'twere that simple. Truth is, anti-religious parents are using their own kids as pawns in some insane power grab against the Church. The schools are doing a great job as they are, there's no demand to alter things for the foreseeable future.

You are glad of how people lie to the priests them saying they will raise the children Catholic when its all a big piss up for them? Must not have much respect for your own religion.

And you call the other parents anti religious. You're anti religious yourself.

magicbastarder

frostyjacks wrote: »

If only 'twere that simple. Truth is, anti-religious parents are using their own kids as pawns in some insane power grab against the Church. The schools are doing a great job as they are, there's no demand to alter things for the foreseeable future.

how is it a power grab to argue that your child should not be discriminated against for basic state services based on their religion?

PopePalpatine

frostyjacks wrote: »

If only 'twere that simple. Truth is, anti-religious parents are using their own kids as pawns in some insane power grab against the Church. The schools are doing a great job as they are, there's no demand to alter things for the foreseeable future.

That dastardly civil rights movement, using children in a power grab against white people.

Cabaal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

That dastardly civil rights movement, using children in a power grab against white people.

Always trying to use their skin colour against people! How dare they!
:pac:

c montgomery

Cabaal wrote: »

So when the majority white parents in America didn't want black children going to school in the same school as their kids that was good old majority rules and thats all good and fine yeah?

Nice!

Your backwards viewpoint in relation to equality is the same sort of viewpoint that forced the US government to have to assign THREE US marshals to a 6 year old child just so the child could attend school



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges



Thankfully, history will look back on your backwards viewpoint with utter disgust as time moves on just like it looks back on these racist parents from when this child attended that school.

Your trying to cloud the argument here.
Nothing is stopping these kids from going to school in Ireland, it's just their parents don't like the type of school available.

I find your post quite disgusting.

looksee

c montgomery wrote: »

Your trying to cloud the argument here.
Nothing is stopping these kids from going to school in Ireland, it's just their parents don't like the type of school available.

I find your post quite disgusting.

So if and when secular and inclusive education is introduced objectors can be told:
'Nothing is stopping these kids from going to school in Ireland, it's just their parents don't like the type of school available' and that will make everything ok?