40% would prefer non-Christian school - Equate Ireland

Cabaal

c montgomery wrote: »

Priority to Catholic children, good! That's exactly what they should do in Catholic schools. Its common sense.

They are state paid for schools with catholic ethos,
So no it makes zero sense.

It non Catholic children have to sit through religious studies big deal, might give then more balance.

Balance eh?
I guess we should waste Catholic kids time by making sure they use 10% of their primary level school time on Islamic studies too. You know...for balance
:rolleyes:

Maybe lobby your td for new schools rather than trying to change the ethos of the catholic schools that have been there for decades. The government needs the catholic schools, not the other way around.

My local schools which I'll be sending my kids to were paid for by the government, as such I'll lobby the government in relation to getting access to these schools that I helped pay for.

Just like if a local hospital was build with tax payer money and it discriminated against people on religious grounds (allowing Catholics to be treated before non-Catholics) I'd also lobby the government to change this.

I have every right to,

Cabaal

Mary63, here's to hoping a fantastic strict Islamic school opens up right next door to you. Sure the girls will have to be separated from the boys and they'll have to wear hijabs and will be seen as less then equal to the boys. But hey, thats not big deal if its a good school and its local right?

Mary63

If I move to an Islamic country cabal I have to abide by their customs,that means I myself cover up and I enrol my children in whatever school is available,that is the reality whether I like it or not.

I think Islam should be taught in our schools,it looks like all of Europe will have to accommodate huge numbers of Muslim people and in order for us to live side by side we have to learn about each others beliefs.There is a huge amount of goodness in Islamic teaching and its no harm for our children to be learn about it.Its also fair that muslim children in our Catholic schools should have their Imans brought into the school to talk about their religion just the same as the catholic priest pops in regularly to drink tea with the principal.

robindch

c montgomery wrote: »

Nothing is stopping these kids from going to school in Ireland [...]

Nothing except the church.

robindch

Mary63 wrote: »

[...] principals and integrity [...]

That's certainly what it seems to boil down to, eh?

Delirium

c montgomery wrote: »

Priority to Catholic children, good! That's exactly what they should do in Catholic schools. Its common sense.

Discriminating against non-Catholics with regard to public schools is anything but common sense. You might have a point if they were in addition to a secular school in all villages/towns, but they're often the only school.

It non Catholic children have to sit through religious studies big deal, might give then more balance.

Then it follows that a secular school that teaches about a variety of religious perspectives would be better for all instead of a Roman Catholic only lesson plan.

Maybe lobby your td for new schools rather than trying to change the ethos of the catholic schools that have been there for decades. The government needs the catholic schools, not the other way around.

Where I grew up doesn't have the population to justify a second school. Why should non-Catholics be punished for not living in a large urban centre?

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

If I move to an Islamic country cabal I have to abide by their customs,that means I myself cover up and I enrol my children in whatever school is available,that is the reality whether I like it or not.

I think Islam should be taught in our schools,it looks like all of Europe will have to accommodate huge numbers of Muslim people and in order for us to live side by side we have to learn about each others beliefs.There is a huge amount of goodness in Islamic teaching and its no harm for our children to be learn about it.Its also fair that muslim children in our Catholic schools should have their Imans brought into the school to talk about their religion just the same as the catholic priest pops in regularly to drink tea with the principal.

So you want Catholic schools to behave in a more pluralist and inclusive way to non-Catholics but still be allowed to discriminate against them getting school places?

It sounds like some sort Catholic/secular fence-sitting tbh.

looksee

In the A&A forum we are accustomed to a minimum level of logic, intelligence and philosophical debate (except when humour is involved ... no, actually, even then).

This thread is supposed to be about whether 40% of parents would prefer non-Christian schools. So far it has been about the degree of cynicism that 'most' parents do/should apply to education and retention of the status quo because it is 'nice'.

The thread has really not moved forward on the discussion as it has been overtaken by filibustering which is devoid of logic, intelligence or any philosophy, or it is being trolled.

I don't think there is a great deal of difference between the two.

Shrap

Delirium wrote: »

Discriminating against non-Catholics with regard to public schools is anything but common sense. You might have a point if they were in addition to a secular school in all villages/towns, but they're often the only school.

Then it follows that a secular school that teaches about a variety of religious perspectives would be better for all instead of a Roman Catholic only lesson plan.

Where I grew up doesn't have the population to justify a second school. Why should non-Catholics be punished for not living in a large urban centre?

Exactly. There is no point in either building or "divesting" one school in any given rural area as (as Mary rightly points out), this would be a further cause of community segregation as can be seen from this document just posted by expectationslost in the School Patronage thread: http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/housesoftheoireachtas/libraryresearch/spotlights/SpotlightSchoolchoice290915_101712.pdf

The only way forward for an equitable school system overall is for admissions policies in all State funded schools to be not allowed to discriminate on a religious basis, and for the in-school segregation in religious faith formation practice to be shelved. Although the Department of Education appear to be making some ground on this level, they have yet again rolled over to the "special place" demanded by the Catholic Church in this regard, as can be seen from this report (also just posted by expectationslost in the School Patronage thread). http://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2012/0328/315388-educationfoi/

That 84% of all National Schools are Catholic, which does not reflect the make up of any Irish community any longer, surely gives cause for reflection on these promises made to the Catholic Church regarding the delivery of faith formation during school hours?

Shrap

Cabaal wrote: »

Mary63, here's to hoping a fantastic strict Islamic school opens up right next door to you. Sure the girls will have to be separated from the boys and they'll have to wear hijabs and will be seen as less then equal to the boys. But hey, thats not big deal if its a good school and its local right?

Probably not a big deal to Mary, seeing as she's considering sending her daughter to an Opus Dei run school :pac:

Cabaal

Shrap wrote: »

Probably not a big deal to Mary, seeing as she's considering sending her daughter to an Opus Dei run school :pac:

I hear their mortification classes are second to none!

c montgomery

Cabaal wrote: »

They are state paid for schools with catholic ethos,
So no it makes zero sense.



Balance eh?
I guess we should waste Catholic kids time by making sure they use 10% of their primary level school time on Islamic studies too. You know...for balance
:rolleyes:



My local schools which I'll be sending my kids to were paid for by the government, as such I'll lobby the government in relation to getting access to these schools that I helped pay for.

Just like if a local hospital was build with tax payer money and it discriminated against people on religious grounds (allowing Catholics to be treated before non-Catholics) I'd also lobby the government to change this.

I have every right to,

They are catholic owned schools where the state pays for the teachers, when the state owns the schools they can make the rules.

And yes some time should be dedicated in schools to learn about all religions. It will make it more obvious to the kids that's there all a load of rubbish.

Shrap

c montgomery wrote: »

They are catholic owned schools where the state pays for the teachers, when the state owns the schools they can make the rules.

And yes some time should be dedicated in schools to learn about all religions. It will make it more obvious to the kids that's there all a load of rubbish.

So you're quite, quite comfortable with the Catholic church owning 84% - 90% of our National Schools, where we all (through the state) pay for the teachers? Don't see anything wrong with that picture at all, no? You do realise that Ireland is a complete anomaly in the Western world in this sense, don't you?

Origin of the primary school system
The national (primary) school system
was established in Ireland in 1831 by
the British government. The intention
was that the State would fund any
school which provided an education
for students of all denominations
together. Religious instruction was to
be provided to students separately.20
However, the churches opposed this
mixed denominational system and by
the end of the 19th Century most
primary schools were under the
ownership and management of the
three main churches: Presbyterians,
Roman Catholics and Anglicans.
21
When Ireland achieved independence
in 1921 religious instruction became a
fundamental part of the school
curriculum and schools remained
under denominational patronage.
22
Patronage in Irish schools today
Ireland’s education system is unique
among developed countries, in that
96% of primary schools are under
denominational patronage.23 Table 1
shows the patronage system operating
at primary level in Ireland.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/housesoftheoireachtas/libraryresearch/spotlights/SpotlightSchoolchoice290915_101712.pdf

c montgomery

Shrap wrote: »

So you're quite, quite comfortable with the Catholic church owning 84% of our National Schools, where we all (through the state) pay for the teachers? Don't see anything wrong with that picture at all, no? You do realise that Ireland is a complete anomaly in the Western world in this sense, don't you?

I think parents should be thanking the catholic church for accomidating their kids. Without the church the state would not have the schools for all these children.

And yes it doesn't bother me at all that they own 84% of them. It bothers me that they are being portrayed as the bad guys when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Shrap

c montgomery wrote: »

Without the church the state would not have the schools for all these children.

Correction to the above: Without the shelving of responsibility by the Irish State (upon achieving independence) towards education in giving it over to the Catholic Church, we would still have schools but they would not be owned by the church.



And we should "thank" the Catholic Church why exactly? I mean, we pay for the teachers....

eviltwin

c montgomery wrote: »

I think parents should be thanking the catholic church for accomidating their kids. Without the church the state would not have the schools for all these children.

And yes it doesn't bother me at all that they own 84% of them. It bothers me that they are being portrayed as the bad guys when it couldn't be further from the truth.

And we as a state are very grateful to them but how long do we have to kowtow to them because of it? That day has gone. Changing the admission system is not dismissing the valuable work they did in education. My children have as much right to an education as Catholic children. I won't grovel to any organisation for 'accommodating' my child. She was a wonderful student. They were lucky to have HER

c montgomery

Shrap wrote: »

Correction to the above: Without the shelving of responsibility by the Irish State (upon achieving independence) towards education in giving it over to the Catholic Church, we would still have schools but they would not be owned by the church.



And we should "thank" the Catholic Church why exactly? I mean, we pay for the teachers....

What good are teachers without schools? You can thank the church for providing the schools, at least you should be thankful.

c montgomery

eviltwin wrote: »

And we as a state are very grateful to them but how long do we have to kowtow to them because of it? That day has gone. Changing the admission system is not dismissing the valuable work they did in education.

The vast majority are happy with the admission policy and how things are run currently. Most people don't care once the school delivers good results.

Shrap

c montgomery wrote: »

What good are teachers without schools? You can thank the church for providing the schools, at least you should be thankful.

Are we talking about the same Catholic Church here? What good are schools that discriminate against 4-5 yr olds on religious grounds, in order to cling for dear life to their "special place" in our state? Speaking of "providing" schools, who gave them the land, the money for the building and the "special place" in the first instance? And can't we change it yet? If not, why not?

Cabaal

c montgomery wrote: »

What good are teachers without schools? You can thank the church for providing the schools, at least you should be thankful.

What good is a school building without the teachers which the tax payer pays for.

The teachers make the school, not the building. You could use a town hall as a school and it would work fine...provided you had good teachers.

Delirium

c montgomery wrote: »

What good are teachers without schools? You can thank the church for providing the schools, at least you should be thankful.

And what good are schools without teachers/funding?

eviltwin

c montgomery wrote: »

The vast majority are happy with the admission policy and how things are run currently. Most people don't care once the school delivers good results.

Because the vast majority aren't affected. It's easy to be blase about it when you aren't going to be struggling to find a school place.

c montgomery

eviltwin wrote: »

Because the vast majority aren't affected. It's easy to be blase about it when you aren't going to be struggling to find a school place.

I did struggle but I'd rather struggle than try and enforce my view and outlook on the catholic schools in my area

eviltwin

c montgomery wrote: »

I did struggle but I'd rather struggle than try and enforce my view and outlook on the catholic schools in my area

Who is doing that? Most people just want a local school place for their child so they can walk to school, make friends with local kids and feel part of the community. They aren't trying to force the school to be secular. With a bit of compromise the school can continue to teach Catholicism to those who want it while accommodating the children of other faiths and none. It works very well in the ET system, it can work equally well in other schools too.

JPCN1

Cabaal wrote: »

What good is a school building without the teachers which the tax payer pays for.

The teachers make the school, not the building. You could use a town hall as a school and it would work fine...provided you had good teachers.

Off you go so.

c montgomery

eviltwin wrote: »

Who is doing that? Most people just want a local school place for their child so they can walk to school, make friends with local kids and feel part of the community. They aren't trying to force the school to be secular. With a bit of compromise the school can continue to teach Catholicism to those who want it while accommodating the children of other faiths and none. It works very well in the ET system, it can work equally well in other schools too.

I agree 100%, but I also think that a catholic school should favour catholic students first.

looksee

c montgomery wrote: »

I did struggle but I'd rather struggle than try and enforce my view and outlook on the catholic schools in my area

I would rather submit to my husband and let him make my decisions for me than look for a vote.

I would rather let my white superiors kindly give me a job than look for the opportunity for my black brothers to create their own.

I would rather obey the church that I do not believe in than think for myself.

Cabaal

JPCN1 wrote: »

Off you go so.

Nothing actually constructive to add?
No?.....Thought not
:rolleyes:

eviltwin

c montgomery wrote: »

I agree 100%, but I also think that a catholic school should favour catholic students first.

So you believe in segregation of children based on faith? Why? Local schools should be for local kids. It makes no sense that my kid is driven to school when the local primary is a two minute walk away. School places should be granted on the basis of proximity, religion, ethnicity etc should be completely irrelevant. An equal playing field and a fair chance is all people want. It's not too much to ask.

Cabaal

c montgomery wrote: »

I agree 100%, but I also think that a catholic school should favour catholic students first.

Not while they are funded by the tax payer,
Would you think its ok for a catholic school to treat Catholics ahead of non-catholics?

We're talking about kids here, you are saying you think its perfectly fine for a 5 year old to be discriminated against.

That in some parts of the country you'd rather a child has to travel in excess of 90min+ car journey each way to a non-catholic school (if it even has space!) then to allow the child to attend their local tax payer funded school.

Thats deeply worrying that you would discriminate against a child like that,