God saves crazy lady

PucaMama

Kev W wrote: »

Why is a belief that should be respected all of a sudden open to intervention when a child is involved?



That is usually the object of asking questions, yes.

Because a child is a minor.

Walter Bishop

Terrlock wrote: »

Prayer is not some mystical process whereby we call out to some force.

That's exactly what prayer is.

True prayer is what happens when our will is aligned with the will of God, and we pray accordingly. Prayer is our connection to heaven and heaven's connection to us.

So you want something to happen, and if it does, God did it? If it doesn't, who is responsible?

Cabaal

PucaMama wrote: »

If a person is of sound mind then it's ok. No one is encouraging anyone to do it. So that doesn't matter.

Drives me crazy when people with no involvement in supporting and caring for people who have just had life changing illnesses and surgeries want to take away something that gives them so much happiness.

So much happiness for one deluded person and so much false hope for others, guess that makes it ok eh?

Expecting your god to cure you from your health issues is dangerous, its really no different to a fortune teller saying you shouldn't undergo chemo because on the next test the doctors will find you cancer gone.

PucaMama

Cabaal wrote: »

So much happiness for one deluded person and so much false hope for others, guess that makes it ok eh?

Expecting your god to cure you from your health issues is dangerous, its really no different to a fortune teller saying you shouldn't undergo chemo because on the next test the doctors will find you cancer gone.

You don't get to decide it's not ok for people to believe. You don't get to do that. And to be so disrespectful as to call them deluded. This is one of the issues with atheists. You think you get to decide what others can or should do just like the militant religious nuts that they are so against.

The ONLY thing that matters when looking at a patients religious beliefs are how it affects that one person.

magicbastarder

i just don't see what the fuss is. religious person thanks god when they're saved from a life threatening illness. sure, it's not an easily defended position, but surely you're just doing your 'job' if you're religious when you thank god?

TL;DR - religious person thanks god for something god didn't do, world continues to turn.

Trent Houseboat

Walter Bishop wrote:

So you want something to happen, and if it does, God did it? If it doesn't, who is responsible?

Also god. It's just that your prayers weren't in discordance with his will.

Stealthfins

There's a lot of sickness in this thread,hopefully someone's prayers will be answered.

It's very simple,some people find comfort in prayers and meditative practices.

Some people choose to slag them off,bringing up all kinds of scenarios.

eviltimeban

magicbastarder wrote: »

religious person thanks god when they're saved from a life threatening illness.
.

The problem is, the story is more along the lines of "religious person thinks god saved them from a life threatening illness". Not thanks.

Anyway. God didn't create man in his own image blah de blah, due to the indisputable scientific FACT that man evolved. So at what point did man line up with "god's will"? Was god looking down at the development of the neanderthal / homo habilis / homo erectus until he got to something he liked and went "Now! Stop there. You lot can pray up to me and I'll sort you out".

Doesn't compute.

Also, doesn't the "second coming" (which is fundamental to Christianity) sort of negate the point of Christianity? It's like when they used to put people back into the Big Brother house after they were voted off.

Nodin

PucaMama wrote: »

Oh of course. Whatever you say.

No, its not 'whatever I say', its a fact. You have no idea who the people posting are or what their experiences are, one way or the other.

Walter Bishop

magicbastarder wrote: »

i just don't see what the fuss is. religious person thanks god when they're saved from a life threatening illness. sure, it's not an easily defended position, but surely you're just doing your 'job' if you're religious when you thank god?

TL;DR - religious person thanks god for something god didn't do, world continues to turn.

The religious person said that all the medical treatment they received would not have been enough and that she also needed prayer. She has absolutely no evidence for this assertion.

Of course, God gets no abuse for giving her cancer in the first place when she was 10. Why does He always get all the praise, and none of the brickbats?

On the other hand it has been seen on numerous occasions that people who eschewed medical treatment in favour of prayer only have died, or more frequently caused a child of theirs to die through neglect.

A graph was posted previously showing the successful treatment rate of leukaemia since the 1950s - the success rate has gone from about 5% to 80%. So, either people are getting better at praying, or science is getting better at treating them. Which do you think it is?

Cabaal

PucaMama wrote: »

You don't get to decide it's not ok for people to believe. You don't get to do that. And to be so disrespectful as to call them deluded.

I can and I have,
There is zero proof their belief cured them, as such they are deluded,

Would you think somebody that thinks a leprechaun cured them of cancer is of perfectly sane body and mind? What if they believed the sun god Ra cured them?

Suggesting that the medical doctors were not enough to cure her and it required her gods intervention is just plain silly,

This is one of the issues with atheists. You think you get to decide what others can or should do just like the militant religious nuts that they are so against.

I can call a person deluded if i want, there is zero evidence to support their claim.
Once they can provide hard evidence I'll consider revising my view of that person, thats the difference between an atheist and a religious nut. I will consider hard evidence once its provided.

A religious nut will not do thus, this is why we have religious nuts that ignore all the evidence and they believe the earth is 6,000 years old

The ONLY thing that matters when looking at a patients religious beliefs are how it affects that one person.

Except thats not where it ends, it doesn't end with that one person.
Instead that one person shouts about it and says to others that there belief can cure them too.

Kev W

PucaMama wrote: »

Because a child is a minor.

Why does that make a difference?

JohnBee

Kev W wrote: »

Why does that make a difference?

I always find that attitude quite disturbing. Basically when you lack the capacity to decide your medical care, it is ok for some person (albeit related to you) decide your care, even if those decisions are crazy.

A 10 year old child cannot process the information to decide for themselves, therefore the decision is left to the parent. I am sure if the child broke its leg, bones sticking out, it would be easy to comprehend the craziness of a religious parent saying the fairies would make it magically heal.

Nodin

Stealthfins wrote: »

There's a lot of sickness in this thread,hopefully someone's prayers will be answered.

It's very simple,some people find comfort in prayers and meditative practices.

Some people choose to slag them off,bringing up all kinds of scenarios.

Again, that is not the problem people have.

magicbastarder

Walter Bishop wrote: »

The religious person said that all the medical treatment they received would not have been enough and that she also needed prayer. She has absolutely no evidence for this assertion.

she's religious. she doesn't need evidence, by the very definition of faith.

but this is what religious people do. it's one thing chuckling at a musician thanking god for helping them win a grammy, it's another thing for someone religious thanking god when they survive a serious illness.
small earthquake in chile, etc.

PucaMama

Kev W wrote: »

Why does that make a difference?

Because it does. Are you ok with children deciding they are religious?

Cabaal

PucaMama wrote: »

Because it does. Are you ok with children deciding they are religious?

Don't we have a system in Ireland that effectively promotes such a thing at present?

Walter Bishop

magicbastarder wrote: »

she's religious. she doesn't need evidence, by the very definition of faith.

but this is what religious people do. it's one thing chuckling at a musician thanking god for helping them win a grammy, it's another thing for someone religious thanking god when they survive a serious illness.
small earthquake in chile, etc.

Why is that? In both cases people are ascribing some good fortune to an invisible being. How exactly is that two different things?

PucaMama

Cabaal wrote: »

Don't we have a system in Ireland that effectively promotes such a thing at present?

Underage children are not responsible for their medical decisions parents are And if the parent isn't reliable the state is

hardCopy

Terrlock wrote: »

Your thinking of Prayer like saying a decade of the rosary or many Our fathers.

That is not what prayer is.

Prayer is not some mystical process whereby we call out to some force. Nor is it a kind of power with which we create things or speak them into existence, ordering God around like some bell-hop who art in heaven. Prayer is communicating with and hearing from God.

True prayer is what happens when our will is aligned with the will of God, and we pray accordingly. Prayer is our connection to heaven and heaven's connection to us.

Pity about all those other kids in the ward. They must not have prayed hard enough.

looksee

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/11/18/vatican-announce-e300-million-investment-in-better-stronger-prayers/

Terrlock

Nodin wrote: »

Have you ever encountered anyone who has an organ or limb regrow? Have you ever seen anyone resurrected? (don't say Jesus)

To answer your first question, I have seen a Friend of mines daughter who had the nerves in her eye severed after a bad accident.

She was totally blind and the doctor said there was no operation that could fix it.

Less then 2 weeks later she was completely healed. The doctor said that he was mystified as to his knowledge that's impossible.

To answer your second question,

Jesus is the resurrection. Believe on him and you will have everlasting life in his kingdom, not this one

Kev W

PucaMama wrote: »

Because it does. Are you ok with children deciding they are religious?

"Because it does "is a child's answer. And yes, I'm OK with children deciding they are religious.

Kev W

PucaMama wrote: »

Underage children are not responsible for their medical decisions parents are And if the parent isn't reliable the state is

So a parent who refuses medical intervention on behalf of a child is unreliable?

eviltwin

I don't have an issue with her believing it to be true but I do have an issue with it being treated as news. Front page news at that.

Terrlock

volchitsa wrote: »

And yet he doesn't seem too keen on intervening to stop mankind from killing others, does he?

Being all powerful, maybe he could shake a bit of magic "free will" dust over everybody, including the ones whose free will only extends to having a nice time and getting home without being murdered, instead of granting free will only to terrorists that want to massacre their fellow men? Why do they get all the free will and not the rest of us?

Why do you keep blaming God for man's actions?

But Make know doubt he will be coming to bring his Justice.

Kev W

Terrlock wrote: »

But Make know doubt

Is this deliberate? Are we being trolled?

Nodin

Terrlock wrote: »

To answer your first question, I have seen a Friend of mines daughter who had the nerves in her eye severed after a bad accident.

She was totally blind and the doctor said there was no operation that could fix it.

Less then 2 weeks later she was completely healed. The doctor said that he was mystified as to his knowledge that's impossible.

To answer your second question,

Jesus is the resurrection. Believe on him and you will have everlasting life in his kingdom, not this one

So any others, other than the eye related injury? You may go outside your personal experience and link to some story you've heard of, should you wish to.

MrPudding

Terrlock wrote: »

Your thinking of Prayer like saying a decade of the rosary or many Our fathers.

That is not what prayer is.

Prayer is not some mystical process whereby we call out to some force. Nor is it a kind of power with which we create things or speak them into existence, ordering God around like some bell-hop who art in heaven. Prayer is communicating with and hearing from God.

True prayer is what happens when our will is aligned with the will of God, and we pray accordingly. Prayer is our connection to heaven and heaven's connection to us.

Likes are what happens when our will is aligned with our followers on Facebook. See, not practice difference.

MrP

Terrlock

Nodin wrote: »

So any others, other than the eye related injury? You may go outside your personal experience and link to some story you've heard of, should you wish to.

Would you need to experience a physical miracle in order to be able to believe?

Terrlock

Kev W wrote: »

Is this deliberate? Are we being trolled?

Is what deliberate?

I'm not trolling, I'm not sure in what way I would be trolling.

Seth Brundle

Terrlock wrote: »

To answer your first question, I have seen a Friend of mines daughter who had the nerves in her eye severed after a bad accident.

She was totally blind and the doctor said there was no operation that could fix it.

Less then 2 weeks later she was completely healed. The doctor said that he was mystified as to his knowledge that's impossible.

I note from what you posted that the doctor didn't put the cure down to a miracle and simply said that they don't understand how it occurred.
You're simply trying to imply that an invisible being did it because you have no other explanation.

Terrlock

kbannon wrote: »

I note from what you posted that the doctor didn't put the cure down to a miracle and simply said that they don't understand how it occurred.
You're simply trying to imply that an invisible being did it because you have no other explanation.

I apologize The doctor did actually say it was a miracle, however he refused to afterwards officially put it down as a miracle when the girls father told him he prayed to Jesus for healing and explained to him the gospel.

The doctor was Muslim.

Seth Brundle

Terrlock wrote: »

I apologize The doctor did actually say it was a miracle, however he refused to afterwards officially put it down as a miracle when the girls father told him he prayed to Jesus for healing and explained to him the gospel.

The doctor was Muslim.

I'd wager that the doctor is not qualified to identify a miracle.
He is however using a religious "catch all" excuse as a reason for something scientific that he simply can not explain.

His religious beliefs should have no involvement in his medical diagnosis.

Did he send your friend off for proper testing and evaluation? Or did he simply express his praise to one god or another and then move onto the next patient?

Anyhow, if God is supposed to have fixed whatever was wrong, why would she have made it wrong in the first place? (Or am I to assume that she works in mysterious ways?)

PopePalpatine

Kev W wrote: »

Is this deliberate? Are we being trolled?

Guys...I think we're being awared on. :pac:

Nodin

Terrlock wrote: »

I apologize The doctor did actually say it was a miracle, however he refused to afterwards officially put it down as a miracle when the girls father told him he prayed to Jesus for healing and explained to him the gospel.

The doctor was Muslim.

Hmmmmmmmm................you realise that muslims would not nessecarily dismiss such a thing? Or did you not think it through?

Terrlock wrote: »

Would you need to experience a physical miracle in order to be able to believe? .

As a young teenager I once stated that there must be something to Lourdes because some people get cured. However it was explained to me that no more cures occur there than anywhere else, and that when you went to look for something testable - like missing limbs - none, whatsoever, in anyway - grew back or appeared. Not in Lourdes, not at any holy site, not in regards to any religion. Bit odd that, isn't it?

volchitsa

Terrlock wrote: »

Why do you keep blaming God for man's actions?

Because we don't all have the same degree of free will.

God is supposedly all powerful, so he could do what he wants - yet he chooses to let only some people exercise their free will and not others.

That's the issue I have with this free will thing : why an all powerful God doesn't give it to everybody and all the time?

If my will is to go to a music concert one Friday night with my friends and get home safely after, why can't I just assume that God will respect my wishes?
Is that "will" not as respectable in God's eyes as the desire to kill 130 people in Paris?

magicbastarder

Terrlock wrote: »

Less then 2 weeks later she was completely healed. The doctor said that he was mystified as to his knowledge that's impossible.

my mother lost the top of her index finger when she was a child (8 years old, i think) in a garden gate; from the top knuckle up. it grew back.

god must have had plans for the top of her finger.

robindch

magicbastarder wrote: »

god must have had plans for the top of her finger.

Seth Brundle

magicbastarder wrote: »

my mother lost the top of her index finger when she was a child (8 years old, i think) in a garden gate; from the top knuckle up. it grew back.

god must have had plans for the top of her finger.

I have something similar. Every time I cut my hair, it grows back. Praise be!

Trent Houseboat

Terrlock wrote: »

To answer your first question, I have seen a Friend of mines daughter who had the nerves in her eye severed after a bad accident.

She was totally blind and the doctor said there was no operation that could fix it.

Less then 2 weeks later she was completely healed. The doctor said that he was mystified as to his knowledge that's impossible.

To answer your second question,

Jesus is the resurrection. Believe on him and you will have everlasting life in his kingdom, not this one

So, to be clear, that's "no" on both counts.

recedite

Terrlock wrote: »

I apologize The doctor did actually say it was a miracle, however he refused to afterwards officially put it down as a miracle when the girls father told him he prayed to Jesus for healing and explained to him the gospel.
The doctor was Muslim.

Are you saying the doctor originally thought it was an unexplained miracle, but then changed his mind when he discovered that Jesus was responsible?
Did you know that Jesus is a prophet in Islam?

The Randy Riverbeast

Terrlock wrote: »

I apologize The doctor did actually say it was a miracle, however he refused to afterwards officially put it down as a miracle when the girls father told him he prayed to Jesus for healing and explained to him the gospel.

The doctor was Muslim.

Is there many doctors who would put down "Jesus did it" officially? He probably meant miracle as in that wasn't likely to happen but you're lucky it did rather than Allah did it.

Terrlock

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Is there many doctors who would put down "Jesus did it" officially? He probably meant miracle as in that wasn't likely to happen but you're lucky it did rather than Allah did it.

I'm only telling you guys what happened.

It really only confirms, it really doesn't matter how much testimony you guys get, or how much someone tries to show you.

You are so blind you refuse to believe. None of you will allow me to demonstrate prayer by praying for you. None of you will listen to testimony.

All you do is mock.


Your like ostriches with there head stuck in the sand, saying nope i don't believe cause I can't see.

You expect God to prove himself to you. It is you that need to prove yourselves righteous to God, and if you can't prove yourselves worthy, accept his mercy that is believing in the one he sent, Jesus Christ for your salvation.

I'm not talking of blind faith, I'm talking about true faith, a faith that is born in your heart, in your spirit. You can know god is real, you can commune with God. Just don't expect to do it in your own hate full ways.

All you do is scoff at those who have faith.

The bible describes you perfectly in several different passages.

"In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."

Stop following along with these scoffers, search your hearts, ask him for understanding, humble yourselves and get rid of your pride and you will know the truth.

robindch

Terrlock wrote: »

Your like ostriches with there head stuck in the sand, saying nope i don't believe cause I can't see.

Funny - I have a family relative who says exactly the same about all of her extended family - it certainly makes for dinners and family events which are memorable for all the wrong reasons :rolleyes:

More seriously, we don't believe not because we "can't see", but because we can - that the world's religion derive linearly from each other in a way that's quite obvious as well as easy to understand. That they're clearly made-up, and that their founding stories are mostly fiction from untrustworthy authors. And, if there was one or more deities out there, that they really should have chosen more honest religious leaders and more stories which were at least plausible, rather than literally incredible.

magicbastarder

Terrlock wrote: »

I'm not talking of blind faith, I'm talking about true faith, a faith that is born in your heart, in your spirit.

tell me, do you practice the same faith your parents raised you with?

Nodin

Terrlock wrote: »

..............

"In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."

Stop following along with these scoffers, search your hearts, ask him for understanding, humble yourselves and get rid of your pride and you will know the truth.

Rock on man.

It's a bit odd that not only I have I not seen proof, but neither have you. And, truth be told, I doubt your sincerity after the muslim story.

eviltimeban

Couple of things Terrlock:

Terrlock wrote: »

It really only confirms, it really doesn't matter how much testimony you guys get, or how much someone tries to show you.

But no one has tried to show me anything - you or anyone else cannot "show" me that there's a heaven or a god. You just start saying "believe... faith... Jesus is the lord" etc etc but that isn't showing me anything. And what you say is testimony is actually just theory and presumption.

Terrlock wrote: »

You are so blind you refuse to believe. None of you will allow me to demonstrate prayer by praying for you. None of you will listen to testimony.

I would turn it around and say that you are the one who's blind. Blind to science and fact. And what are you, some kind of shamen or something? You want to demonstrate the power of prayer? Go for it. Pray that ISIS will be stopped, or the floods in the midlands will disappear overnight, or that all the terminally ill children in Temple Street will be better tomorrow. Go on. Be my guest.

Terrlock wrote: »

All you do is mock.

I mocked the lady in the news story who claimed god healed her cancer, when it was actually the doctors and advances in modern medicine. That's what everyone here is saying too.

Terrlock wrote: »

Your like ostriches with there head stuck in the sand, saying nope i don't believe cause I can't see.

My head is clearly above the sand. I am looking around me, reading scientific facts, proof of evolution etc, ZERO recorded proof of heaven and life after death, and happily saying "nope I don't believe". All you have is a bible, that was written thousands of years ago, and has been proven to have had gospels that were selected and others rejected in order to further the church's power. That's what you're basing your belief on.

Terrlock wrote: »

You expect God to prove himself to you. It is you that need to prove yourselves righteous to God, and if you can't prove yourselves worthy, accept his mercy that is believing in the one he sent, Jesus Christ for your salvation.

Why? If god put me here, and gave me free will, why? I haven't been asked anything, no one's asked me to do anything. Why do I need to prove myself to someone or something that I'm don't know is real? Surely HE should prove HIMSELF to US, so we can go "OK, grand so. Praise be to god" etc. The issue that atheists and agnostics have is the lack of proof. And people, especially people who accept science, like proof.

Terrlock wrote: »

I'm not talking of blind faith, I'm talking about true faith, a faith that is born in your heart, in your spirit. You can know god is real, you can commune with God. Just don't expect to do it in your own hate full ways.

I don't hate anyone, blindly. Or anything. I love the world. I love the human race, and all life on earth. I wish for world peace, a world free of oppression, bigotry, and racism. And I'm sorry to say, religion too. Because all religion has done is cause mayhem in the world. Killing, slaughter, crusades, oppression, destruction. And it'll continue that way.

When we are born, we don't have faith automatically in our hearts. All we want is sustenance and the odd cuddle! We learn about religion in school and from our parents. Without that interference, we'd believe none of that. People might question where they came from, but one second of reading about evolution and the origins of the universe would give them more insight than reading a bunch of factually dodgy stories from two thousand years ago.

Terrlock wrote: »

All you do is scoff at those who have faith.

I think my points above are reasonable cause to "scoff" at those that do have faith, not that I do that actively. But in cases like the news story we're talking about, where religion is being positioned as something it isn't, I'll happily scoff. I started the thread based on that.

Terrlock wrote: »

The bible describes you perfectly in several different passages.

"In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."

The bible couldn't possibly describe me. I'm a man living in 2015, two thousand years after the events of the Bible supposedly took place. The people who wrote it know nothing of our modern world - the discovery of evolution, the origins of the universe, physics, etc. So how can they accurately describe me and the world I inhabit?

And why are my desires "ungodly"? I desire all the things I mentioned above - peace, love, happiness, good health for those I love, the ability for all in the world to enjoy the beauty of the world without oppression. How is that ungodly? I just don't think any of those things can be achieved through religion. It's up to us on earth to do that - we're clearly not getting any help from "above".

Terrlock wrote: »

Stop following along with these scoffers, search your hearts, ask him for understanding, humble yourselves and get rid of your pride and you will know the truth.

I've searched my heart. The simple explanation of god and heaven would be great to believe in, but I don't because I can't. There's too much working against that belief, too much I accept that counters every argument any religious person has ever put forward. By all means, believe in god - but don't assume that everyone else should, or that stories like this one in the Indo represent your religion in a good light, because they don't.

Icepick

Terrlock wrote: »

Why do you keep blaming God for man's actions?

But Make know doubt he will be coming to bring his Justice.

Your god sounds like a sociopath.
Did you design him yourself?

looksee

What is this Christian notion that non-believers 'hate' god and are evil (the alternate version of the reference to 'ungodly desire' is 'evil ways')?

I don't hate god, how can I hate someone/thing that does not exist? Why do you have to assume that I must fill the belief vacuum with, say, the devil? If I don't believe in god, why would I believe in the devil?

How can you say I am evil or have evil desires? No doubt there are some people who would deny god and are in some way bad, there are also people who profess a belief in god and are bad. Similarly there are people who do not believe in god but are good people, and there are some that are believers who are good people. There is no relationship between belief and moral virtue.

I would argue from my personal experience that some religious people, especially those who make a production of being religious, are the most judgmental, in spite of the instruction 'judge not that ye be not judged'. Mark 7 1-3.

I had a sufficiently religious experience in my teens - very much voluntary on my part - that I was fully aware of all the teaching, and I searched within myself and found - nothing. With the best will in the world I looked, but after some 10 years of church going, sunday school teaching, bible classes, sermons and prayers, all of which I enjoyed at a social level, I could not find any basis for the belief that was being professed all around me. I am not sure how much more I could have done.

I might have become a 'social' Christian but gradually the judgmental attitudes, the platitudes, the duplicity and strange notions (unrelated to bible teaching) that I found all around me convinced me that the church was not for me. Being free of all the nonsense that is promoted as religion is a great freedom, I live by my own rules, which are at least as virtuous as those the believers claim to follow, and am free to experience life as it is now, not as it might be after I am dead.

The only issue is that I am still subject (as a member of the Irish public) to a great deal of this self-serving and largely corrupt nonsense that has nothing whatever to do with Christianity and everything to do with control.