Journalistic objectivity

mariaalice

I was listening to what I would consider a rather odd interview that the journalist Kitty Holland gave on the Seán Moncrieff show asserted that the catholic church would 'role over to abortion on demand' if they could get to keep patronage of the schools that their are powerful conservative forces in the Catholic church in Ireland ect who do not like Diarmuid Martin and are determined to keep an iron grip on Children.

Would this be the same catholic church that cant find priests for numerous parishes, who could not even find a priest to conduct a confirmation mass recently.

Any one know who this powerful conservative forces are, got any name, know of any government department they are influencing who exacter are they.

The Iona institute is a joke and Ronan Mullins is a lone voice so it cant be them.

TheChizler

https://twitter.com/KittyHollandIT

I'll start you off:

Dear Kitty,

You recently took part in a conversation on the Sean Moncreiff show and mentioned powerful conservative forces in the Catholic Church; could you expand on this please?

Sincerely,

mariaalice

I think all twitter conversations should take letter form

robindch

mariaalice wrote: »

[...] their are powerful conservative forces in the Catholic church in Ireland ect who do not like Diarmuid Martin and are determined to keep an iron grip on Children.[...]

Priests getting any kind of a grip on children, let alone an iron one, is where many of the church's current problems come from.

Absolam

TheChizler wrote: »

https://twitter.com/KittyHollandIT

I'll start you off:

Dear Kitty,

You recently took part in a conversation on the Sean Moncreiff show and mentioned powerful conservative forces in the Catholic Church; could you expand on this please?

Sincerely,

mariaalice

I think all twitter conversations should take letter form

Punctuation may be important, but a 140 character limit is absolute!

Dear Kitty, re recent convo with Sean Moncreiff; powerful conservative forces in the Catholic Church? More info pls! Sincerely, mariaalice

Shrap

mariaalice wrote: »

Any one know who this powerful conservative forces are, got any name, know of any government department they are influencing who exacter are they.

The Iona institute is a joke and Ronan Mullins is a lone voice so it cant be them.

Could be the ultra secret Opus Dei, but they don't exactly shout their membership from the roof-tops. AFAIK there isn't any current major recent investigative report into their influence, but the go-to one from the 1980's certainly shows up the highly influential positions of some suspected members.

Here ya go: http://politico.ie/archive/secrets-opus-dei

If you read that article thoroughly, you'll find that the public face of Opus Dei these days is the Lismullin Institute, but that they also own and run millions worth of property, particularly university residences. Lismullin runs "retreats" and conferences, a leadership forum (a network of big business people which seems to concentrate on "ethos" in business practice), a nursing school....all sorts. Check out their website.

This excerpt from another article is interesting, but I've never read the book mentioned:

"Journalist with the National Catholic Reporter, John Allen has perhaps provided the most balanced answer to this question in his book on the group. Allen who logged 300 hours of interview time with members across eight countries describes Opus Dei as, ”a relatively small group, only modestly influential, with a profile similar to many other lay associations or even mid-sized dioceses.” He goes on to explain the disproportionate influence of the organisation of its size. ”Opus Dei members are probably more likely than Catholics in general to be active in politics, because of their emphasis on the ‘unity of life’. ”Because sanctification of the secular world is their prime directive, Opus Dei members feel an unusually powerful call to roll up their sleeves and get involved in secular affairs. Hence, where Opus Dei members are active politically, they’re likely to be unusually committed, and therefore sometimes unusually influential.”

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/whats-so-secret-about-opus-dei/

Also interesting are the links that can be drawn between Ronan Mullen and various, ahem, "friends" of Opus Dei....
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/12/04/opus-dei-you-say/

There's a great interactive graphic map somewhere (can't find it at the mo) of the links that can be drawn between all the little "think tank" ultra-catholic groups whose names crop up all the time. I think we can all rest assured that these worthies are doing their Opus Dei bit to keep Ireland from descending into moral decay!

lazygal

http://bocktherobber.com/2015/05/great-bouncing-ionaballs/

This the one?

http://bocktherobber.com/2013/06/what-exactly-is-the-iona-institute/

Or this?

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

http://bocktherobber.com/2015/05/great-bouncing-ionaballs/

This the one?

http://bocktherobber.com/2013/06/what-exactly-is-the-iona-institute/

Or this?

Yup! The first one is the one I was thinking of, thanks! Yeah, there's some interesting speculation to be made into the shady links between Iona and Opus Dei, starting with their company name "Lolek Ltd"....

Lolek, incidentally, is the Polish diminutive of Karol, as in Karol Wojtyla, otherwise known as Pope John Paul II.

- Pope JP's favourite right wing catholic army was Opus Dei, and during his reign, the founder of OD was made a saint and two members were made cardinals.

mariaalice

I could be wrong but to me the idea of influential conservative forces in Irish life strike me as similar to the reds under the bed scare combined with still fighting the cultural wars of he 1980's. Note I am not saying that there are not conservative people in Irish society there are the same as any society.

mariaalice

lazygal wrote: »

http://bocktherobber.com/2015/05/great-bouncing-ionaballs/

This the one?

http://bocktherobber.com/2013/06/what-exactly-is-the-iona-institute/

Or this?

As the linked article pointed out it is a few hundred righting nutters, although it might be interesting to look at how culturally they arise in Irish society.

Shrap

mariaalice wrote: »

I could be wrong but to me the idea of influential conservative forces in Irish life strike me as similar to the reds under the bed scare combined with still fighting the cultural wars of he 1980's. Note I am not saying that there are not conservative people in Irish society there are the same as any society.

Well, I presume you had some curiousity about the subject or you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

If you want to feel you're right, then you won't research any further and will accept your own feelings that this is some massive world wide conspiracy theory. Grand. No skin off my nose. Oh, and you're welcome for the links. Here's another one: http://www.odan.org/

mariaalice

Shrap wrote: »

Well, I presume you had some curiousity about the subject or you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

If you want to feel you're right, then you won't research any further and will accept your own feelings that this is some massive world wide conspiracy theory. Grand. No skin off my nose. Oh, and you're welcome for the links. Here's another one: http://www.odan.org/

I don't think it is a conspiracy theory as such, but they are given far too much attention.

They way I see it is that the catholic church is becoming an irrelevance for a lot of Irish society, which is a good thing for Irish society and a good thing for the catholic church.

Shrap

mariaalice wrote: »

As the linked article pointed out it is a few hundred righting nutters, although it might be interesting to look at how culturally they arise in Irish society.

It's nowhere near a comprehensive list of links of course. The membership of Opus Dei being secret somehow doesn't lend itself to being able to inform people about their actual influence. However, you can (if you want to entertain the possibility) easily suspect that every catholic hospital, teaching institution and relevant civil service department has at least one Opus Dei board member doing their level best to ensure that Ireland doesn't become any more secular any time soon. Here's an interesting post from politics.ie:

http://www.politics.ie/forum/foreign-affairs/200740-danish-company-sued-opus-dei-5.html

The Irish Times
by Aidan O’Sullivan (16/1/1998, p.14)

(extracts below)

Dr. John Roche, the Galway-born Oxford university lecturer who earlier this week disclosed details of the religious organisation Opus Dei to the London Times, has commented on its Irish branch.

A senior member of the organisation for 14!/2 years, Dr. Roche now lectures at Linacre College Oxford, and said that the Irish wing of Opus Dei numbers its membership at more than one thousand.................

He said that Opus Dei was easily able to recruit university students here in the 1950’s as there was little intellectual stimulation in the university atmosphere at that time, and that the organisation offered some stimulus and leadership in comparatively apathetic times.

As an organisation, he said it exerted considerable political influence, and most probably had members or sympathisers highly placed in Irish politics, not to mention the media, business, banks and the professions, particularly medicine. Most people associated with Opus Dei, apart from a few, denied membership, or any association, and this tactic is fully approved by Opus Dei as a matter of course. In this, Opus Dei has been linked to the Masons, on which it is reputedly modelled.

Despite his denials, it is generally accepted that Minister Michael Woods is a member of Opus Dei and having capped the RCC contribution he setup the taxpayer for an uncapped abuse claims bill (potentially €1.5BN).

Ruari Quinns response after being stonewalled by the Dept of Education when looking for Primary School ownership data was: "Either officials in the department are members of secret societies, such as the Knights of St Columbanus and Opus Dei, and have taken it upon themselves to protect the interests of these clerical orders at this point in time. . . or, alternatively, the minister is politically incompetent and incapable of managing the department," Mr Quinn told the Dail.

Shrap

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't think it is a conspiracy theory as such, but they are given far too much attention.

They way I see it is that the catholic church is becoming an irrelevance for a lot of Irish society, which is a good thing for Irish society and a good thing for the catholic church.

Well if Kitty Holland actually has an informed ear on the ground, it's encouraging to think they're in the position of conceding ground on any matters! Clearly, education would be their "Custer's last stand" position, and while I'd like to think the catholic church is becoming less relevant in terms of social policy, they are still in a position of far greater influence than they warrant.

mariaalice

Shrap wrote: »

Well if Kitty Holland actually has an informed ear on the ground, it's encouraging to think they're in the position of conceding ground on any matters! Clearly, education would be their "Custer's last stand" position, and while I'd like to think the catholic church is becoming less relevant in terms of social policy, they are still in a position of far greater influence than they warrant.

I see you point, however you linked an article from 17 years ago talking about the 1950's.

Shrap

mariaalice wrote: »

I see you point, however you linked an article from 17 years ago talking about the 1950's.

When recruitment was clearly at an all time high. Those people are now (hopefully) retired for the most part, but that's not to say that recruitment wouldn't have remained high up to the 80's at least. And those people are (while probably much lower in number) still providing Lismullen with a steady stream of benefactors and supporters in every walk of Irish business life.

I did say at the beginning of my quotes that there are no current in depth investigations AFAIK. Doesn't mean that OD doesn't still have influence!

Shrap

mariaalice wrote: »

I was listening to what I would consider a rather odd interview that the journalist Kitty Holland gave on the Seán Moncrieff show

When was that show mariaalice? Wouldn't mind giving it a listen to see what she said!

mariaalice

Shrap wrote: »

When was that show mariaalice? Wouldn't mind giving it a listen to see what she said!

Last week but I cant remember the day sorry.

Shrap

mariaalice wrote: »

Last week but I cant remember the day sorry.

Ok, no bother

recedite

mariaalice wrote: »

I could be wrong but to me the idea of influential conservative forces in Irish life strike me as similar to the reds under the bed scare combined with still fighting the cultural wars of he 1980's.

As Yoda always said...“Never underestimate the power of the dark side”
and..."Hard to see, the dark side is. We must investigate further before drawing a conclusion."

recedite

I see the guy who controls or controlled the former Christian Brothers property portfolio is to be appointed president of the High Court. He previously took early retirement and resigned from his position as a High Court judge ahead of new rules which were going to reduce the pensions paid out to high earners.

He seems to have forced the state to pay over the odds for a short lease on the first school ever to be divested by the RCC. A school which was there for 193 years, and whose ownership seems to be in doubt anyway. It may even have been set up originally as a multi-denominational school.

Hotblack Desiato

What a great little country this is :mad: