irish hospitals & religion

magicbastarder

i guess this issue has probably come up before, in relation to patronage and ethos, but are there any guidelines for doctors on an individual level about displaying signs of faith?
i'm assuming the below story (and i'd like to point out i saw it on broadsheet rather than the mail) may just be a case of racism rather than sectarianism? but 'muslim' grabs the eye in a headline better than 'pakistani' or whatever nationality the doctor may have been.

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/idm1.jpg

lazygal

Whatever about religious grounds, you're entitled to refuse to be treated by any medic. There's doctors I will refuse treatment from if I have any more children, for many reasons.

Cabaal

Daily Fail, enough said,

Patients refusing Doctors of other nationality's appears to be a common thing from what I can see. The daily mail is just making this into a story because the person is Muslim. Its not religion that is the factor, its the colour from what I've seen.

If the Doctor was a white Doctor from Dublin that happened to be Muslim you can bet no service would be refused.

I know of atleast two (racists pricks) that told Doctors of other nationality's to get away from them when they were in hospital. One of the people was in to give birth to their child and they said something along the lines of "get that n*gger away from me", when I was being told the story she seemed to find it amusing....as did her husband.
:rolleyes:

All completely bang out of order and such people should be charged accordingly. Doctors have enough crap to be putting up with.

lazygal

There's a psychiatrist who's also a member of Iona and given her comments about its membership and women who might require abortions there's no way she'd be let treat me. If I knew a doctor allowed his or her religion to influence medical decisions and treatment you bet I'd refuse to let them treat me.

Orion

Not charged - discharged. If they refuse treatment on racist or religious grounds then get the fcuk out of that bed so we can give it to some who wants to be treated.

http://www.thejournal.ie/doctor-refusal-tallaght-2496379-Dec2015/

screamer

I think there are some awful doctors out there id all backgrounds. I remember when I was younger being treated by a doctor and English was not his first language and the nurse was literally like a translator trying to decipher check and double check what his treatment plan was for me and writing it down. Regardless of someone's religion or ethnicity there is no room for such low levels of ability to converse it's accepting low standards like that that cause mistakes and you can't risk someone's life.

lazygal

Orion wrote: »

Not charged - discharged. If they refuse treatment on racist or religious grounds then get the fcuk out of that bed so we can give it to some who wants to be treated.

Sorry now but if I'm pregnant again and I need psychiatrist treatment there's no chance I'll consent to it from someone who's religious beliefs mean they'll refuse certain medical treatment to me.

Cabaal

lazygal wrote: »

There's a psychiatrist who's also a member of Iona and given her comments about its membership and women who might require abortions there's no way she'd be let treat me. If I knew a doctor allowed his or her religion to influence medical decisions and treatment you bet I'd refuse to let them treat me.

I'd agree, in that context....if their personal religious beliefs cloud their legal responsibilities.
But if the doctor just happened to be catholic, jewish or muslim and you disliked that faith isn't a legit enough reason.

Orion

lazygal wrote: »

Sorry now but if I'm pregnant again and I need psychiatrist treatment there's no chance I'll consent to it from someone who's religious beliefs mean they'll refuse certain medical treatment to me.

That's different to just rejecting someone just because they're wearing a hijab. Refusal for professional or medical reasons I can understand as in your case. Refusal because of purely racist reasons means gtfo as far as I'm concerned.

The Randy Riverbeast

Think doctors can refuse to do things for religious reasons, they just have to send you on to someone else. If there was a doctor who refused ,for example, to give birth control to women for religious reasons then I would probably look elsewhere. Although I give them a chance instead of assuming that they wouldn't.

A doctor should be there to give the best care along medical guidelines, not a book that's over 1000 years old. If they aren't willing to do that then they shouldn't be a doctor.

looksee

I have been treated by numerous doctors of all races and religions, my only reservation would be that I would not want to be treated in hospital by someone wearing a burka or naquib - I like to see who I am dealing with. No problem with any other clothing - though consultants doing rounds wearing suits is a bit iffy too - how often are suits cleaned/washed?

I do think that satisfactory English is more important - I recall my screaming three year old being asked in an unintelligible accent 'can you pass urine' by a doctor of (I think) Indian origin - and no, he was talking to her, not to me, though I answered! It is very difficult to have a discussion where you are constantly saying, sorry, I didn't understand you?

robindch

looksee wrote: »

I do think that satisfactory English is more important [...]

You should try hauling up at a regional hospital in China with a mid-level medical complaint.

Hemerodrome

robindch wrote: »

You should try hauling up at a regional hospital in China with a mid-level medical complaint.

Where there would be a reasonable expectation you could speak the lingua franca.

looksee

robindch wrote: »

You should try hauling up at a regional hospital in China with a mid-level medical complaint.

I am sure that would be difficult, but it has nothing at all to do with Irish hospitals! :pac:

Jellybaby1

A couple I know attended a hospital appointment and they were seen by a foreign doctor. They didn't mind the foreign-ness, they just couldn't understand a word he said. When they left the room and asked the nurse for a bit of help understanding him she said they weren't allowed to even say they couldn't understand him. What were they supposed to do then if they hadn't a clue what he had said to them. They left as wise as when they arrived. Surely the medical staff must have understandable pronunciation! Sometimes its just a heavy accent that's the problem. When I was in the same situation a year ago I just kept asking the doctor to repeat......he was a mite miffed about it too! Maybe Irish doctors are not understood by foreign patients either?

magicbastarder

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

she said they weren't allowed to even say they couldn't understand him.

what's the penalty so if you're not allowed say you cannot understand?

recedite

Orion wrote: »

That's different to just rejecting someone just because they're wearing a hijab. Refusal for professional or medical reasons I can understand as in your case. Refusal because of purely racist reasons means gtfo as far as I'm concerned.

Muslim is not a race, so its not racist.
If someone thinks foreign doctors are likely to be of a lower standard, there is good reason to believe that. Eg this, and this, and this.
Maybe you could call it "informed xenophobia"?

The problem is we have a very restrictive, but first class, training program for doctors in Ireland, but at times the public health service is like something from the third world. The HSE has been in conflict with the European Commission for years over the issue of making junior doctors work 24 hour shifts.
Our own junior doctors don't want to endure those conditions, so they move abroad where they get looked after better.
We then import the kind of doctors who have less choices, to replace them.
The basic problem is we won't allow our own kids to study medicine unless they get straight A's in the Leaving Cert, but we will happily give the jobs to foreign doctors of very mediocre ability. What we need is more places for Irish students in medicine, shorter shifts, better conditions, and more working staff in hospitals. And less admin staff.

Jellybaby1

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's the penalty so if you're not allowed say you cannot understand?

The nurse didn't elaborate, but at a guess I suppose she thought you could be dragged to court for being a racist.

I think I'd go along with recedit's comment, especially "we won't allow our own kids to study medicine unless they get straight A's in the Leaving Cert," as I know a young woman who almost, but didn't quite, get the points in her LC to study nursing, she had to repeat just to get those very few points.

The Black Oil

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-dont-want-to-be-treated-by-someone-in-a-hijab-patient-refuses-care-from-two-muslim-doctors-34276594.html

The daughter of a woman who refused care from a Muslim consultant at Tallaght Hospital this week has defended her mother's actions.

If someone is wearing a Nazi uniform what ideology do you think they are subject to?
"Would anyone expect a Jew to be treated by a Nazi doctor?" she asked.

At this point Boucher Hayes intervened and informed the caller that her comments were illegal.
"You cannot make these remarks. You may not be familiar with incitement to hatred legislation in this country but I'm telling you that you can't do it," he said.

However, the woman stuck to her original viewpoint saying that she feels that her opinion is never well received.

"Any negative opinion or criticism of Muslims is shut down in this country," she said.

Says the woman on one of the most popular radio shows in the country.

Cabaal

Her comparison is deeply deeply flawed

If someone is wearing a Nazi uniform what ideology do you think they are subject to?
"Would anyone expect a Jew to be treated by a Nazi doctor?" she asked.

A far more accurate comparison would be

"If somebody was German what ideology do you think they are subject to?"

You can of course assume they are Nazi, but you have no such proof of this and frankly it would be idiotic to assume such a thing so its totally wrongto refuse treatment from a person because they are German. If a Jewish person refused to deal with a Germany citizen then its the Jewish person that is in the wrong.

Just because some Muslim people do bad things does not equal all Muslims bad, it would be flawed to think this. Just like it would be flawed to think that all overly religious catholic people abuse children. This isn't the case.

Her viewpoint towards Muslims is as deeply flawed as the idiots who believed all Irish Catholic's in decades past were members or "potential members" of the IRA.

looking_around

I've had good and bad treatment from foreign doctors. I will as such give them all a chance but if they seem lacking to me, I'll refuse treatment by them.

As someone mentioned above, a poor ability to converse. I've dealt with this. It's frustrating and unacceptable. They could be the most highly qualified people in the world. If they can't describe a procedure or can't understand what your issues are. I'm not talking accent, I'm talking simple lack of understanding of English. This is horrible care and the HSE should ensure a higher standard of spoken english before employing someone.

I've never had a doctor wearing a religious emblem. Though if they are in uniform or currently in a hospital, this shouldn't be allowed at all. (I say this because the less they have on that could get contaminated, the better, imo.) If they're own office or just doing paper work kind of stuff, rather then going around sick/injured etc patients.Then whatever goes. Heck they can wear a colander on their head for all I care.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

Muslim is not a race, so its not racist.
..............

....because sectarianism is so much better.

recedite wrote:

If someone thinks foreign doctors are likely to be of a lower standard

....which would not be the case here, so why bring it up?

"The patient in question asked the doctor if she was a member of the Muslim faith.

When the medical professional answered in the affirmative, the patient asked for another medical professional to take charge of her care."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/any-criticism-of-islam-is-shut-down-in-this-country-daughter-of-patient-who-refused-medical-care-from-muslim-doctor-34279898.html

recedite

Personally I'd have no issue at all with a muslim doctor if they were a good doctor. This video lifted from another thread, but it seems apt here somehow.
The younger guy is a medical student.

The older guy claims to be a fully qualified medical doctor. Also ends up telling the younger guy that his knowledge of the English language is inadequate

I know which one I'd rather have treating me, and its not the muslim.
I hope the younger guy ends up working in an Irish hospital. He has a great manner, great communication skills, and he understands science. And lets face it, the first few years of studying medicine is a science degree, so if somebody can get through that without really understanding it, it does not bode well for the rest of the course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndpsuvg48fc

Cabaal

His English seems very good to me,
Perhaps he was using words your man didn't understand, :pac:

Can't get his head around theory and law, theory of gravity is accurate.
If we called every science theory fact then it suggests that the idea behind it can never be challenged or changed, which is not the case. If every science theory was fact then we'd never have come up with theorys behind dark matter etc

magicbastarder

lazygal wrote: »

There's a psychiatrist who's also a member of Iona and given her comments about its membership and women who might require abortions there's no way she'd be let treat me. If I knew a doctor allowed his or her religion to influence medical decisions and treatment you bet I'd refuse to let them treat me.

different person here, i assume? says she's a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/renua-candidate-steps-down-over-hurtful-gay-comments-1.2465270

Kiwi in IE

magicbastarder wrote: »

different person here, i assume? says she's a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/renua-candidate-steps-down-over-hurtful-gay-comments-1.2465270

This woman! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Casey

I wouldn't have her within a country mile of me or anyone I cared about who was suffering from mental health problems.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

Personally I'd have no issue at all with a muslim doctor if they were a good doctor. This video lifted from another thread, but it seems apt here somehow.

It does? Why?

recedite

Another one is outed at a fitness to practice inquiry. Having observed him in action, Irish doctors doubt that he has any medical training at all...

That first weekend, Mr Devitt was concerned about Dr Hassan's knowledge of the basics of working on a ward 'without killing someone'.
Dr Hassan was talking about his aspiration of becoming a consultant.
Mr Devitt said doctors became concerned he might not be a doctor at all.

Omar Hassan Mohamed's defence is that he is brilliant and his accusers are racists.

Dr Hassan told the inquiry there was an element of bias and victimisation in the allegations against him.
He said he was 'a brilliant student', one of the top students nationally in Sudan.

Despite being incompetent, he didn't like taking instructions from nurses and "behaved aggressively" towards a female patient.
Pretended he was back in Sudan when the inquiry first started, but that didn't work out for him.

Shrap

recedite wrote: »

Another one is outed at a fitness to practice inquiry. Having observed him in action, Irish doctors doubt that he has any medical training at all...Omar Hassan Mohamed's defence is that he is brilliant and his accusers are racists.Despite being incompetent, he didn't like taking instructions from nurses and "behaved aggressively" towards a female patient.
Pretended he was back in Sudan when the inquiry first started, but that didn't work out for him.

I don't get the connection to the thread recedite? Looks like someone who blagged their way through Sudanese medical school to me, or cooked the books somehow and ended up working in some Irish hospitals. Hardly an issue with religion, surely?

recedite

A bad attitude towards female staff and patients was part of the problem.

Shrap

recedite wrote: »

A bad attitude towards female staff and patients was part of the problem.

Interestingly, we here in Ireland are not so long out of the cultural era of every profession having a "bad attitude" towards female staff and patients, if we are indeed out of it at all in some areas of state.

So when you say...

recedite wrote: »

Another one is outed

...what do you mean exactly? Another man? Another black person? Another Sudanese person? Or another Muslim? Please define.

recedite

Another doctor with a phoney qualification from the muslamic world. You're the first on this thread to bring up skin colour. I hope you're not some sort of racist.

Shrap

recedite wrote: »

Another doctor with a phoney qualification from the muslamic world. You're the first on this thread to bring up skin colour. I hope you're not some sort of racist.

Possibly the first to bring up gender and country of origin too. Equally, perhaps I'm some kind of misandrist or bigot.

But thank you for defining that the reason you brought this to our attention on this thread is that he is a Muslim with a phoney qualification.

lazygal

recedite wrote: »

Another doctor with a phoney qualification from the muslamic world. You're the first on this thread to bring up skin colour. I hope you're not some sort of racist.

This is a bizarre contribution.