David Norris - Social welfare shouldn't be spent on alcohol

gctest50

melissak wrote: »

Seriously who votes for this toss Pot. The Senate is a pure waste of money. What does he even do bar pontificate? What is his purpose?

defending his poet friend according to Wikipedia


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gay-poet-denies-hes-a-stud-preying-on-innocent-youths-26433172.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairytale_of_Kathmandu#Defence_of_.C3.93_Searcaigh

On 11 March 2008, Norris called for the broadcast of the documentary Fairytale of Kathmandu (scheduled to be shown that evening on RTÉ) to be postponed. The film documented visits to Nepal by Irish poet Cathal Ó Searcaigh, during which he had sex with young boys. It questioned whether he was sexually exploiting the boys or engaging in child sex tourism. Norris criticised that the film had been leaked beforehand and that Ó Searcaigh had been treated harshly by the media before its broadcast.

Greentopia

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I used to raid my dads fridge for the week and buy noodles and bread for toast to be able to drink my "weekly allowance". My father paid my rent and gave me X amount per week for food/going out. Save the food money to drink it.

That's sad. Sacrificing your health to go out and get pissed. Hope for your sake you've grown out of that way of living. And also learned to stand on your own too feet and pay your own way.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Greentopia wrote: »

That's sad. Sacrificing your health to go out and get pissed. Hope for your sake you've grown out of that way of living. And also learned to stand on your own too feet and pay your own way.

Well, I have to haven't I? Both my parents are dead and I've never free loaded off the state. In a good place in my life, earning enough money to burn the candle at whatever end I choose. Thanks for your concern all the same

KomradeBishop

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The difference is you can choose to not have electricity.

Yea that's great - I'm sure if electricity providers decide to co-operate in collectively screwing around their customers, people will just be able to 'vote with their feet' and boycott electricity altogether.

Virtually nobody in this country - except those who pretend to where it suits their argument - think electricity services are a 'choice'.

Tarzana2

esforum wrote: »

do you think that people are deaf and blind? Do you honestly, hand on heart think that we dont see and hear students get absolutely **** faced all the time?

I've never said they didn't.

darkpagandeath

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yea that's great - I'm sure if electricity providers decide to co-operate in collectively screwing around their customers, people will just be able to 'vote with their feet' and boycott electricity altogether.

Virtually nobody in this country - except those who pretend to where it suits their argument - think electricity services are a 'choice'.

And they ask the ER for a raise in price and get told to have a bigger one. I'm sure someone will be along soon with the red herring of a slight drop this year. Oil gas have been cheap for years.

Greentopia

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Well, I have to haven't I? Both my parents are dead and I've never free loaded off the state. In a good place in my life, earning enough money to burn the candle at whatever end I choose. Thanks for your concern all the same

Sorry to hear that, both mine are gone too. I don't see anyone having to rely on the State for money to survive when they're unemployed as being "free loaders".
It's the mark of a civilised society that we look after the less fortunate.
Terms like 'free loaders' is right wing propaganda Governments love to hear the general public spew; the language of class hatred, breaking the natural solidarity and empathy human beings have so we fight each other and blame the poor for our problems instead of the people who have robbed us of billions.
These are manipulation and distraction techniques. Recognise them for what they are and stop being a useful pawn for those who care not a whit for you, only what they can get from you to enrich themselves further.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I have no problem with people on the dole for X amount of time after falling on hard times, losing their job, etc.
But, unless you're old and unskilled there's no reason for someone to be on the dole long term, especially those who spend their entire 20s taking the guts of 190 a week and contributing nothing.

They're vulnerable because they will not help themselves. They make themselves unemployable because who wants to hire someone who hasn't worked in 8 years?

And what does the Irish government do? Enable them.

steddyeddy

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I used to raid my dads fridge for the week and buy noodles and bread for toast to be able to drink my "weekly allowance". My father paid my rent and gave me X amount per week for food/going out. Save the food money to drink it.

No offense Lexie but I worked with some of the poorest students out there. Many would kill to have their rent paid for them. The start you received in life minimises the chance you'd end up on the dole.

You might have seen the report on RTE about rents around the country. Well many students are struggling to afford the rents and some had to drop out of college because they couldn't afford rent. Its because of the lack of parental support that they're more likely to end up on the dole.

It's all well and good judging people on the dole but most of the time people live off the state because they have to. If you look at a lot of the people on the dole (the genuine cases) they didn't receive the support early in life that prevents them receiving support now.


I'm not saying you think like this but one or two of the students I taught in UCD had some strange attitudes towards the dole. They viewed their parental handouts as somehow morally superior to state handouts that people need to eat ect.

jimgoose

Greentopia wrote: »

...Terms like 'free loaders' is right wing propaganda...

There is no "Right Wing" here. The do-gooder religious bully-boys and their Mad O'Duffy-inspired Government sponsors flatter themselves. An actual Right
Wing worth the appelation would see those creatures skinned alive.

Iwasfrozen

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yea that's great - I'm sure if electricity providers decide to co-operate in collectively screwing around their customers, people will just be able to 'vote with their feet' and boycott electricity altogether.

Virtually nobody in this country - except those who pretend to where it suits their argument - think electricity services are a 'choice'.

Of course buying electricity is a choice. My parents didn't have electricity growing up, they managed to survive. As did the vast majority of humans who have lived on the planet.

Not paying taxes on the other hand will put me in prison so the two aren't comparable.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

steddyeddy wrote: »

No offense Lexie but I worked with some of the poorest students out there. Many would kill to have their rent paid for them. The start you received in life minimises the chance you'd end up on the dole.

You might have seen the report on RTE about rents around the country. Well many students are struggling to afford the rents and some had to drop out of college because they couldn't afford rent. Its because of the lack of parental support that they're more likely to end up on the dole.

It's all well and good judging people on the dole but most of the time people live of the state because they have to. If you look at a lot of the people on the dole (the genuine cases) they didn't receive the support early in life that prevents them receiving support now.


I'm not saying you think like this but one or two of the students I taught in UCD had some strange attitudes towards the dole. T

You know it's this attitude that annoys me. I had a girl I know turn around to me once and say "it was alright for you, we don't all have rich daddies".

I hate this attitude for many reasons. Let me tell you a few.
1. My father was working from when he was really young. Missing days of school at times so he could work. Working after school. Worked all his life, worked in the mornings and evenings on days he had chemo. Worked 7 days a week. Rarely took days off for family holidays any longer than a few days. My mother worked too, working nights, working long days, working over Christmases/Easter and other holidays other people were off for.

They had two kids, what they could afford to rear and send to college. We had a comfortable childhood because my parents worked enough to make sure we did.
We had a good chance at school, we had a mother who stood over us every evening to make sure we did our homework, who helped us and checked it. We got in trouble if we didn't do well in tests or if we got bad reports home.

When college time rolled around for me, 6 weeks into my first year, my mother died. My dad - as a single parent then had two grieving teenagers on his hands. 1 still in school and 1 to put through college. There was no grants helping him, or helping me. I did what most unsupervised teens did, drank, partied, crammed entire semesters in a matter of weeks, and got myself through college. Got myself through the leaving cert into college in the first place.

Then you have this girl,
Mam and dad who have never worked for as long as I knew them (24 years at present)
Mam and dad who didn't care about the kids not going to school/being suspended
Mam who wouldn't even be up in time to make sure they were up for school
Mam and dad who knew all their entitlements, council house medical cards, grants.
Mam and dad who encouraged the girl I'm talking about to sign up for the dole as soon as she turned 18.

The girl failed maths but got accepted into a Plc. Hated it, left.
Went back to repeat some LC subjects, hated it, left.
Girl started another Plc, hated it, left.
Girl got into a course in IT. Left by mid October.
Girl went back as a mature student a few years ago to do science, her "dream". Lasted til Christmas, left. She was getting money to go to college, still never went.

Now she's 26, living in her mam and dads council house, hasn't worked EVER, never has had a job. Has a leaving cert without maths but no courses after that.
Posts stories on snapchat of Monday Club and Saturday night sociables.

That girl who had many chances to go to college, who was recieving money to go to college, turned around with an attitude similar to yours and told me the only reason I am where I am is because I had a rich father.

And it's wrong. I am where I am because I was taught whatever you have in life is what you work for, nothing is for nothing. Nobody owes you anything. You owe it to yourself. I am where I am because my father was working since he was 13/14 years old. I am where I am because my mother sacrificed her time with us as a family to provide for us. I am where I am because I had good parents who made sure I got through school, into college, and I had the support of my father until I was able to stand on my own two feet and who was in a position to be self sufficient and able to take care of myself when I was left with nobody to look out for me at the age of 25.

steddyeddy

LexieOnRale wrote: »

You know it's this attitude that annoys me. I had a girl I know turn around to me once and say "it was alright for you, we don't all have rich daddies".

I didn't say rich or that you should be gracious. I got where I am in life because I worked extremely hard without parental support. Someone today told me that I should be more gracious and I told them to go f*&k themselves.

I'm simply saying don't judge those who may not have had your start in life.

I hate this attitude for many reasons. Let me tell you a few.
1. My father was working from when he was really young. Missing days of school at times so he could work. Working after school. Worked all his life, worked in the mornings and evenings on days he had chemo. Worked 7 days a week. Rarely took days off for family holidays any longer than a few days. My mother worked too, working nights, working long days, working over Christmases/Easter and other holidays other people were off for.

He sounds like a great guy. A lot like me in fact. I'm not saying they didn't work hard. I'm saying that other people would kill for parents like them.

They had two kids, what they could afford to rear and send to college. We had a comfortable childhood because my parents worked enough to make sure we did.
We had a good chance at school, we had a mother who stood over us every evening to make sure we did our homework, who helped us and checked it. We got in trouble if we didn't do well in tests or if we got bad reports home.

Again they sound great but why judge those who may not have had that?

When college time rolled around for me, 6 weeks into my first year, my mother died. My dad - as a single parent then had two grieving teenagers on his hands. 1 still in school and 1 to put through college. There was no grants helping him, or helping me. I did what most unsupervised teens did, drank, partied, crammed entire semesters in a matter of weeks, and got myself through college. Got myself through the leaving cert into college in the first place.

Fair play that must have been tough. I had no mother or father or their support for my secondary or third level education so I know it's not easy.

Then you have this girl,
Mam and dad who have never worked for as long as I knew them (24 years at present)
Mam and dad who didn't care about the kids not going to school/being suspended
Mam who wouldn't even be up in time to make sure they were up for school
Mam and dad who knew all their entitlements, council house medical cards, grants.
Mam and dad who encouraged the girl I'm talking about to sign up for the dole as soon as she turned 18.

You see Lexie you're illustrating my point. You've described the path the girl's parents took and the lack of support they gave her daughter. How can you not think how a child is raised will determine their attitudes towards college ect? Do you think this effected the girl positively or negatively?

The girl failed maths but got accepted into a Plc. Hated it, left.
Went back to repeat some LC subjects, hated it, left.
Girl started another Plc, hated it, left.
Girl got into a course in IT. Left by mid October.
Girl went back as a mature student a few years ago to do science, her "dream". Lasted til Christmas, left. She was getting money to go to college, still never went.

She received zero support from her parents so what do you expect? I certainly wouldn't judge the girl for it and she shouldn't have judged you. Again it illustrates my point.

Now she's 26, living in her mam and dads council house, hasn't worked EVER, never has had a job. Has a leaving cert without maths but no courses after that.
Posts stories on snapchat of Monday Club and Saturday night sociables.

I feel sorry for her. She never believed she could go to college. Her parents had an appalling way of living (IMHO) and should have taught their daughter the value of education. Can you understand how hard it is for a son or daughter to turn around and say tell themselves that their parent's lifestyle is wrong? Breaking the mould is a very hard thing to do.

That girl who had many chances to go to college, who was recieving money to go to college, turned around with an attitude similar to yours and told me the only reason I am where I am is because I had a rich father.

Well I disagree with the girl. I think support and encouragement is more important than the money. I also disagree with you in that I think you can't judge people without knowing what led to where they are now.

And it's wrong. I am where I am because I was taught whatever you have in life is what you work for, nothing is for nothing. Nobody owes you anything. You owe it to yourself. I am where I am because my father was working since he was 13/14 years old.

Indeed but similarly a lot of people are where they are because their father didn't.

I am where I am because my mother sacrificed her time with us as a family to provide for us. I am where I am because I had good parents who made sure I got through school, into college, and I had the support of my father until I was able to stand on my own two feet and who was in a position to be self sufficient and able to take care of myself when I was left with nobody to look out for me at the age of 25.

Indeed. Your parents sound great. However why would you not understand some people are where they are today exactly because their parents did the opposite of yours?

I'd also like to add that although my mother did help me I am where I am today because of me. We can only blame or thank our parents so much.

gctest50

steddyeddy wrote: »

He sounds like a great guy. A lot like me in fact.

I had no mother or father or ..............

I'd also like to add that although my mother did help me ...........

?

steddyeddy

gctest50 wrote: »

?

I ran away from home because my father was a d1ck to put it mildly. He wasn't nice to my mother and I stood up for her. This was just after the start of secondary school. It was my mother who encouraged me and always believed in me.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

steddyeddy wrote: »

LexieOnRale wrote: »

You know it's this attitude that annoys me. I had a girl I know turn around to me once and say "it was alright for you, we don't all have rich daddies".

I didn't say rich or that you should be gracious. I got where I am in life because I worked extremely hard without parental support. Someone today told me that I should be more gracious and I told them to go f*&k themselves.

I'm simply saying don't judge those who may not have had your start in life.



He sounds like a great guy. A lot like me in fact. I'm not saying they didn't work hard. I'm saying that other people would kill for parents like them.



Again they sound great but why judge those who may not have had that?



Fair play that must have been tough. I had no mother or father or their support for my secondary or third level education so I know it's not easy.



You see Lexie you're illustrating my point. You've described the path the girl's parents took and the lack of support they gave her daughter. How can you not think how a child is raised will determine their attitudes towards college ect? Do you think this effected the girl positively or negatively?





She received zero support from her parents so what do you expect? I certainly wouldn't judge the girl for it and she shouldn't have judged you. Again it illustrates my point.



I feel sorry for her. She never believed she could go to college. Her parents had an appalling way of living (IMHO) and should have taught their daughter the value of education. Can you understand how hard it is for a son or daughter to turn around and say tell themselves that their parent's lifestyle is wrong? Breaking the mould is a very hard thing to do.



Well I disagree with the girl. I think support and encouragement is more important than the money. I also disagree with you in that I think you can't judge people without knowing what led to where they are now.




Indeed but similarly a lot of people are where they are because their father didn't.



Indeed. Your parents sound great. However why would you not understand some people are where they are today exactly because their parents did the opposite of yours?

I'd also like to add that although my mother did help me I am where I am today because of me. We can only blame or thank our parents so much.

Because Steddy, at 20 odd years old you decide to become your own person. I buy this "you can't help who your family are" when you're a child and have no choice. It's the same attitude shown to anti social families, ah sure what chance do the kids have?

You might not have a mother and father who'll get up and bring you to school when you're young enough to need them but at 15 or 16 you're old enough to do what you need to do, get yourself up and washed and out to school.
And even if you're not, at 23 you have the choice of going to college as a mature student. You cannot blame as an adult your parents for you still doing nothing with your life late 20s.

And it's only being enabled, leaving people like that to claim all sorts of benefits, get Christmas bonuses, reward them for having children they can't support.
"They didn't have the same start as you did" only washes for a certain period, while they're not old enough to create their own start.

KomradeBishop

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I have no problem with people on the dole for X amount of time after falling on hard times, losing their job, etc.
But, unless you're old and unskilled there's no reason for someone to be on the dole long term, especially those who spend their entire 20s taking the guts of 190 a week and contributing nothing.

They're vulnerable because they will not help themselves. They make themselves unemployable because who wants to hire someone who hasn't worked in 8 years?

And what does the Irish government do? Enable them.

Yes there is an excuse: When not enough jobs are made available.

You can't blame any unemployed person, for there not being enough jobs to go round.

KomradeBishop

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course buying electricity is a choice. My parents didn't have electricity growing up, they managed to survive. As did the vast majority of humans who have lived on the planet.

Not paying taxes on the other hand will put me in prison so the two aren't comparable.

That's a load of nonsense - virtually nobody in this country goes without electricity, you're doing your 'devils advocate' nonsense again, where you push an argument even you can't credibly believe.

If you want to do that devils advocate nonsense, don't do it with me, thanks - it's pretty insulting to expect others to take and debate with your argument seriously, when the argument is so facetious to begin with,

esforum

darkpagandeath wrote: »

3% is the average of unemployment in a developed economy don't let that get in the way of a ridiculous rant. Remind us again how many people are in that population that has 90% unemployment. You know that would be a very significant number.

if its 3% in a developed country that just proves me point doesnt it? One of the most labour intensive counties during the boom. A time when someone with a junior cert could get work in the building sector. A time when we were bringing skilled AND unskilled labout into the country to fill gaps and we still had, by your own admission, more than the average unemployed. Tell me, how does that not prove me point regarding the seperation between job seekers and job dodgers?

Ireland has been bouncing around the 4%'s from 2000 to 2007 and in 2008 it started to go up, thats when we saw genuine hand on heart workers losing their jobs and needing support via welfare. thats when we saw people who want to work but couldnt.

You may think your defending the hard done by working man but your not, you are insulting him by placing him in the same bracket as the classless wonders or are junkies, career robbers, sneak thiefs, pickpockets, drug dealers and joyriders all just in need of a decent chance and a nice suit to wear to their next interview? Come to work with me for a day and you will see reality

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yes there is an excuse: When not enough jobs are made available.

You can't blame any unemployed person, for there not being enough jobs to go round.

You're telling me that 1 person in 8 years of searching for a job couldn't find one?

esforum

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yes there is an excuse: When not enough jobs are made available.

You can't blame any unemployed person, for there not being enough jobs to go round.

But there was jobs, loads of jobs, we were flying people in from abroad to take the jobs at one stage. If you havent worked in the past 10 years, its by choice

KomradeBishop

LexieOnRale wrote: »

You're telling me that 1 person in 8 years of searching for a job couldn't find one?

I'm not saying anything about 1 person over 'x' amount of time, I'm saying:
When there aren't enough jobs to go around, There. Aren't. Enough. Jobs.

When you have unemployment levels like we've seen for almost 8 years, you will have long term unemployed, who are involuntarily unemployed.

When we are at any level of unemployment, that is not at or either close to full employment, then you completely lose the ability to distinguish scroungers from the 'genuine' involuntarily unemployed.

darkpagandeath

esforum wrote: »

But there was jobs, loads of jobs, we were flying people in from abroad to take the jobs at one stage. If you havent worked in the past 10 years, its by choice

You mean low paid below the breadline jobs ? filled by people from Poland ? Oh lets chuck in a Red herring some came as software developers... Odd that we are crying out for decent ones now cant be found has been like that for years.

esforum

KomradeBishop wrote: »

That's not really true though - in the major provider markets that you can't avoid, there are only a handful of providers to choose from - and each usually as crap as the other, just in different ways.

The idea that there is always an issue-free provider to choose is a myth - choice doesn't mean a thing when your options are limited; a bit like what Henry Ford said:
"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."

People don't even have a clue of what the salaries are in the charities they donate to, nevermind the service providers - can anyone here cite the salaries in a major service provider, without Googling? Doubt it.

No though - people will argue for pages and pages over the minutiae of how a dole recipient spends their money, with barely a thought put into how money they mandatorily have to spend elsewhere goes...

Well thats all well and good, I dont really care to debate the ins and outs of consumer choices here but theres a large difference between paying a private company for a service I want (or need in this case) and paying tax so someone can sit at home drinking cans of beer all day. I pay tax for education, health, policing, a decent park to bring my kids, to support other public services that I use or if not personally use, benefit society as a whole. What charities I donate to is my choice, I am not being made give X amount of my income to fund charities I may or may not agree with.

I dont want a single cent of my tax put towards a career job dodger. Do you have any concept of what its like for a nurse, doctor, Garda or prison officer to be slogging away treating / arresting / minding pure lowlife scum knowing that part of their wages will be removed to provide this person with a house, bus pass, reduced fees, free doctor, free a&e and 190 a week to drink. Worse still if thats not one you care about, the victim of these people. Seriously., how many phones and bikes are being nicked every year in Dublin? How many houses are being broken into in this country? You telling me these people are A, holding down fulltime jobs or B, genuinely looking for jobs?

KomradeBishop

esforum wrote: »

But there was jobs, loads of jobs, we were flying people in from abroad to take the jobs at one stage. If you havent worked in the past 10 years, its by choice

There are not enough jobs. Look at the stats:
http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/ireland-unemployment-rate.png?s=ieuert&v=201512072103m&d1=20050101&d2=20151231

Particularly, vacancies per unemployed (and if anyone has an issue with the source of these stats, I can root out EU based stats which show this figure as even worse):
http://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/2014/09/02/latest-data-on-the-vacancy-rate/

More proof - people available to work but not seeking a job; we have one of the best figures in Europe, being almost on-par with Germany:
https://rwer.wordpress.com/2015/03/29/graph-of-the-day-people-available-to-work-but-not-seeking-a-job/

darkpagandeath

esforum wrote: »

Well thats all well and good, I dont really care to debate the ins and outs of consumer choices here but theres a large difference between paying a private company for a service I want (or need in this case) and paying tax so someone can sit at home drinking cans of beer all day. I pay tax for education, health, policing, a decent park to bring my kids, to support other public services that I use or if not personally use, benefit society as a whole. What charities I donate to is my choice, I am not being made give X amount of my income to fund charities I may or may not agree with.

I dont want a single cent of my tax put towards a career job dodger. Do you have any concept of what its like for a nurse, doctor, Garda or prison officer to be slogging away treating / arresting / minding pure lowlife scum knowing that part of their wages will be removed to provide this person with a house, bus pass, reduced fees, free doctor, free a&e and 190 a week to drink. Worse still if thats not one you care about, the victim of these people. Seriously., how many phones and bikes are being nicked every year in Dublin? How many houses are being broken into in this country? You telling me these people are A, holding down fulltime jobs or B, genuinely looking for jobs?

dole is 188pw actually, they on a liquid diet ? They would soon be dead me thinks. 1 out of 10 tbh

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I'm not saying anything about 1 person over 'x' amount of time, I'm saying:
When there aren't enough jobs to go around, There. Aren't. Enough. Jobs.

When you have unemployment levels like we've seen for almost 8 years, you will have long term unemployed, who are involuntarily unemployed.

When we are at any level of unemployment, that is not at or either close to full employment, then you completely lose the ability to distinguish scroungers from the 'genuine' involuntarily unemployed.

And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.

esforum

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean low paid below the breadline jobs ? filled by people from Poland ?

ah ha, and theres the rub. Jobs that were beneath us. No, I dont mean poverty jobs as Ireland has a minimum wage. Why is McDonalds full of foreign staff?

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Oh lets chuck in a Red herring some came as software developers... Odd that we are crying out for decent ones now cant be found has been like that for years.

Some possible did, most did not. I dunno, maybe the likes of yourself just doesnt leave the house that often but if you did you would have met many many Polish and eastern european staff in fast food, building, security and retail positions. Not high paid but paid nevertheless.

If you went to a carehome or a medical centre you would no doubt encounter African and Asian staff, again they may never be millionaires but its honest money for honest work.

darkpagandeath

LexieOnRale wrote: »

And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.

Unfortunately the dole office make it incredibly hard to take part time work.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Unfortunately the dole office make it incredibly hard to take part time work.

So what? Take no work?

esforum

KomradeBishop wrote: »

There are not enough jobs. Look at the stats:
http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/ireland-unemployment-rate.png?s=ieuert&v=201512072103m&d1=20050101&d2=20151231

Particularly, vacancies per unemployed (and if anyone has an issue with the source of these stats, I can root out EU based stats which show this figure as even worse):
http://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/2014/09/02/latest-data-on-the-vacancy-rate/

More proof - people available to work but not seeking a job; we have one of the best figures in Europe, being almost on-par with Germany:
https://rwer.wordpress.com/2015/03/29/graph-of-the-day-people-available-to-work-but-not-seeking-a-job/

You are either deliberately missing the point or just not able to grasp the debate. Your quoting figures for now, the recent times. We have consistantly stated that in 2000, 2001, 2002, etc until 2007 there were far more jobs than Irish staff willing to take them thusforeign staff recruited. I and other posters

have stated LONG TERM PREDATING THE ENCONOMIC CRASH UNEMPLOYED. People with 10+ years.

darkpagandeath

esforum wrote: »

ah ha, and theres the rub. Jobs that were beneath us. No, I dont mean poverty jobs as Ireland has a minimum wage. Why is McDonalds full of foreign staff?


Some possible did, most did not. I dunno, maybe the likes of yourself just doesnt leave the house that often but if you did you would have met many many Polish and eastern european staff in fast food, building, security and retail positions. Not high paid but paid nevertheless.

If you went to a carehome or a medical centre you would no doubt encounter African and Asian staff, again they may never be millionaires but its honest money for honest work.

Because when 10 of you chip in for a gaff and that you can afford to live barely on the bread line. One does realise the Polish were being readily abused yeah ?

darkpagandeath

esforum wrote: »

You are either deliberately missing the point or just not able to grasp the debate. Your quoting figures for now, the recent times. We have consistantly stated that in 2000, 2001, 2002, etc until 2007 there were far more jobs than Irish staff willing to take them thusforeign staff recruited. I and other posters

have stated LONG TERM PREDATING THE ENCONOMIC CRASH UNEMPLOYED. People with 10+ years.

Lets do the maths.... 4% of the working age Irish population is ? We will have to - a section of society as well that has 90% unemployment and that puts you down to normal democratic countries dole rate. 3% unemployment is the average of full employment. I think there is only one person here not understanding.

esforum

darkpagandeath wrote: »

dole is 188pw actually, they on a liquid diet ? They would soon be dead me thinks. 1 out of 10 tbh

Thats what you took from my post? Thats all you can counter with, I point at people who steal high end valuables and you then argue that the dole is 188 so they must be starving? Criminals sell the products they steal!

I have to choose my words carefully here so lets just say I find your last comment rather lacking in reasoned debate as by your view, all junkies must starve to death because theu sure as **** put 188 into their arms a week

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Lets do the maths.... 4% of the working age Irish population is ? We will have to - a section of society as well that has 90% unemployment and that puts you down to normal democratic countries dole rate. 3% unemployment is the average of full employment. I think there is only one person here not understanding.

I have no idea what you talking about, the 4% is not 4% of the entire age specific population, medically incapable are removed from the numbers. Its 4% of the capable work force which is higher than your 3%. All irelevent though, we had more jobs than applications. As for 90%, no idea who you are refering to, artists maybe? Please, spit out your comment fully.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Because when 10 of you chip in for a gaff and that you can afford to live barely on the bread line. One does realise the Polish were being readily abused yeah ?

So again we come to the arguement that its not to our standard so we turn our noses up? Builders were on bad money now? Security? No sorry, McDonalds and Penneys pay a decent wage and were paying a decent wage in 2002, 2005 and 2006, to both their Irish and Polish staff. They may not be great jobs but McDonalds got me through college and a little beyond until I found what was apparantly a rare animal, a job. strange nhow I managed 3 or 4 of those during those years and yet all those people couldnt even get 1, ever and no, the polish were not being abused. I have no doubt some employers took the piss but there was no mass raping and pillaging of the Polish newcomers.

You have looked down your nose on more than one type of job now in your posts as being below you for various reasons. Whats the criteria you set before you will get out of bed and go to an interview?

KomradeBishop

esforum wrote: »

Well thats all well and good, I dont really care to debate the ins and outs of consumer choices here but theres a large difference between paying a private company for a service I want (or need in this case) and paying tax so someone can sit at home drinking cans of beer all day. I pay tax for education, health, policing, a decent park to bring my kids, to support other public services that I use or if not personally use, benefit society as a whole. What charities I donate to is my choice, I am not being made give X amount of my income to fund charities I may or may not agree with.

I dont want a single cent of my tax put towards a career job dodger. Do you have any concept of what its like for a nurse, doctor, Garda or prison officer to be slogging away treating / arresting / minding pure lowlife scum knowing that part of their wages will be removed to provide this person with a house, bus pass, reduced fees, free doctor, free a&e and 190 a week to drink. Worse still if thats not one you care about, the victim of these people. Seriously., how many phones and bikes are being nicked every year in Dublin? How many houses are being broken into in this country? You telling me these people are A, holding down fulltime jobs or B, genuinely looking for jobs?

If you're paying money towards an essential service, provided privately, that you simply can't avoid (e.g. most utility services), and where the market of providers is so small as to make the idea of 'choice' more of an illusion than a reality, then what you're paying is really not all that different to a tax.

So apply your logic consistently: Why aren't you giving out about outrageous salaries or overcharging, in these industries? They have a far bigger monetary impact on your pocket, than some stereotyped 'scrounger' buying beer on the weekend...

People have their morals all arseways on this issue really, and ignore the moral wrongs of rent-seeking behaviour in major unavoidable industries (where the payments we have to make to them are analogous to taxes), and focus on - frankly insignificant - moral issues, such as petty things, like what dole recipients spend their money on (even though there is no practical way to enforce any restrictions on how they spend their money, given that they can just use barter to evade the restrictions...).

There are far greater moral concerns to be worried about - except they take a bit more reading and understanding, than the standard tabloid-esque stereotype of dole recipients do.

darkpagandeath

esforum wrote: »

Thats what you took from my post? Thats all you can counter with, I point at people who steal high end valuables and you then argue that the dole is 188 so they must be starving? Criminals sell the products they steal!

I have to choose my words carefully here so lets just say I find your last comment rather lacking in reasoned debate as by your view, all junkies must starve to death because theu sure as **** put 188 into their arms a week

Them claiming the dole is not the issue my friend. Unless you are saying there are large numbers and has a peer reviewed study to back up their wild accusation.

RayM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

You're telling me that 1 person in 8 years of searching for a job couldn't find one?

If someone's unemployed for that length of time, they might have other problems that you aren't aware of. Being unemployed is confidence-sapping at the best of times, so if they didn't have problems to begin with, they probably will after eight years. This is why I think the Department of Social Protection should focus on helping people with their mental health, rather than just pushing them from workfare to Fás courses to welfare in an endless bureaucratic loop.

darkpagandeath

On a side note, Can anyone tell me how to claim the dole with no fixed address to be means tested at ? You know for all the junkies that apparently do this.

KomradeBishop

LexieOnRale wrote: »

And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.

You're wrong. There are objectively not enough jobs to go around, and I've provided ample stats to back this.

You're mistaking anecdote for evidence: The raw stats prove that there are not enough jobs.

darkpagandeath

KomradeBishop wrote: »

You're wrong. There are objectively not enough jobs to go around, and I've provided ample stats to back this.

You're mistaking anecdote for evidence: The raw stats prove that there are not enough jobs.

Get out with the stats and sense... :pac::pac::pac:

KomradeBishop

esforum wrote: »

You are either deliberately missing the point or just not able to grasp the debate. Your quoting figures for now, the recent times. We have consistantly stated that in 2000, 2001, 2002, etc until 2007 there were far more jobs than Irish staff willing to take them thusforeign staff recruited. I and other posters

have stated LONG TERM PREDATING THE ENCONOMIC CRASH UNEMPLOYED. People with 10+ years.

Nothing was stated about 'predating the economic crash' - and that was almost 8 years ago now, that's long-term...

esforum

darkpagandeath wrote: »

On a side note, Can anyone tell me how to claim the dole with no fixed address to be means tested at ? You know for all the junkies that apparently do this.

Yes, you use a hostel as your address, most commonly the Simon community or if your 'officially' homeless your card states care of the homeless persons unit. Go outside one day, just for me. Got to the GPO Thursday morning at 8am and ask them what address they use.

In fact, they will even do it for you as per their site:
"The Homeless Persons Unit (HPU) provides payments under the Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme and offers advice on your social welfare entitlements.Call the HPU at: 1800 724 724". (http://www.homelessdublin.ie/)

That number by the way if the number you ring if you need a bed for the night. You ring just before 9pm on that occasion and they arrange a location to pick you up. Usually the GPO, Store Street or Pearse Street Garda station in Dublin city and then take you to an allocated hostel bed. Its not preallocated but done on a call and provide system.

Now, seeing as I clearly have far far more experience dealing with them and your that clueless that you didnt realise junkies and the homeless could actually claim in the first place, I shall bid you farewell.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Nothing was stated about 'predating the economic crash' - and that was almost 8 years ago now, that's long-term...

You are arguing with 2 people on this but reread the thread, its been stated a number of times. I am specifically stating those that have not had a job even in the good days and I remember them well apparantly being a but older than yourself. If you wanted a job in 2001 and 2002 you got one simple enough.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Why aren't you giving out about outrageous salaries or overcharging, in these industries? They have a far bigger monetary impact on your pocket, than some stereotyped 'scrounger' buying beer on the weekend...

You are assuming I dont complain about the companies. I don't in this thread because its not relevent. You just insist on bringing it in. Im waiting on Irish water to make an appearance.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If you're paying money towards an essential service, provided privately, that you simply can't avoid (e.g. most utility services), and where the market of providers is so small as to make the idea of 'choice' more of an illusion than a reality, then what you're paying is really not all that different to a tax.

Granted but I am as I stated already, recieving a service for that tax. What exact service is the unemployed getting drunk providing?

KomradeBishop wrote: »

People have their morals all arseways on this issue really, and ignore the moral wrongs of rent-seeking behaviour in major unavoidable industries (where the payments we have to make to them are analogous to taxes), and focus on - frankly insignificant - moral issues, such as petty things, like what dole recipients spend their money on (even though there is no practical way to enforce any restrictions on how they spend their money, given that they can just use barter to evade the restrictions...).

You are again assuming, why cant people be outraged about a number of issues? Why is it A or B? Why cant people be pissed off about the dole AND a number of other issues. I pay 7% pension levy, Im pissed off about that as well. Im pissed off that our hospitals are woefully overstretched and theres old women waiting hours on trolleys. Im pissed off that taxes are going towards criminal education systems instead of prisons. Im pissed off that the playground nearest my home was burnt to a crisp and theres no money for replacement but yet theres money for more bull**** FAS courses in how to arrange flowers or some other ****e.

I agree that its not enforceable and in reality as much as I complain, I dont want to see a child starve or do without because the parents a **** so inevitable the system will truck on but this is a forum, for people to talk

I'm sure it's already been said, but in case not......


.....minimum alcohol pricing should not be allowed, and social welfare recipients should be allowed to spend as much of their welfare as they like getting as hammered as they like if that's what they like.

storker

faceman wrote: »

Unfortunately we do live in a country where both the government and the banks can decide on how people can spend their income. Check out the personal insolvency legislation.

That only applies if you're insolvent though, unemployment != insolvency.

Iwasfrozen

KomradeBishop wrote: »

That's a load of nonsense - virtually nobody in this country goes without electricity, you're doing your 'devils advocate' nonsense again, where you push an argument even you can't credibly believe.

If you want to do that devils advocate nonsense, don't do it with me, thanks - it's pretty insulting to expect others to take and debate with your argument seriously, when the argument is so facetious to begin with,

Don't tell me what I'm doing. Thank you very much.

You're trying to make a comparison between voluntary payment for a service and taxation where the comparison is invalid.

If I'm not happy with how my electricity company spends my money I can change companies or not avail of any of their services if I choose to. If I'm not happy with how the government chooses to spend my money I can't change providers short of leaving the country and even then I'll be taxed on any money domicile in Ireland.

Iwasfrozen

LexieOnRale wrote: »

And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.

Whenever someone says there aren't enough jobs I say well then why not make a job?

Get a yard brush and go round to all the person's neighbours and ask if they want their yard swept. Get a basin and sponge and offer to wash their car, or mow their grass, fix their toilet, rake their leaves. The idea that we pay people for nothing is ridiculous.

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure it's already been said, but in case not......


.....minimum alcohol pricing should not be allowed, and social welfare recipients should be allowed to spend as much of their welfare as they like getting as hammered as they like if that's what they like.

I 100% absolutely disagree.

DaraghMAC

KomradeBishop wrote: »

You're wrong. There are objectively not enough jobs to go around, and I've provided ample stats to back this.

You're mistaking anecdote for evidence: The raw stats prove that there are not enough jobs.

I'm sorry but you are way off the mark there. I work in social welfare and there are loads of jobs. Irish people will just not take them. We point out jobs to people all the time and try and encourage them to apply and go for interviews etc but they won't if they feel they could get a better job. Pride has them sitting at home bitching about the economy, nama, the government, bankers, the Germans and public servants and before you know it they are on the dole for a year. On the other hand I have seen Polish and other European nationals with MBA's and PhD's take cleaning or shop work just to stay working. The Irish, who used to be so hard working, have turned into a bunch of spoilt brats.
Before you start saying typical opinionated Civil Servant in his cushy permanent job, I have worked in the private sector and been unemployed so I know what it's like. I also run my own business in my spare time. There is work if you want it!!

Smidge

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Whenever someone says there aren't enough jobs I say well then why not make a job?

Get a yard brush and go round to all the person's neighbours and ask if they want their yard swept. Get a basin and sponge and offer to wash their car, or mow their grass, fix their toilet, rake their leaves. The idea that we pay people for nothing is ridiculous.

Only a person with no real life experience would make this statement.

It's rough, crude and utterly disparaging of people who you know absolutely nothing about.
Its hyperbole that you have read and heard but have never lived a minute of.

To even suggest the above shows how little you really know about the entire thing.
Your post simply comes across as you feel superior to those who are unemployed and deem them to be inferior in every shape way and form to despite the fact that they may have been made unemployed after 50 years of solid work and have paid their taxes to ALLOW them to collect unemployment payments.

Your opinion and attitude are infantile and simplistic beyond belief.

The world may never bite you on the ass considering your view suggests a certain privilege.
Thats a privilege you may not have earned so its easy to spout against all else.

Empathy is something learned. And when needed, most treasured.

Mario95

Am I the only one who thinks that social welfare - especially jobseekers allowance should be an emergency supplement and not a permanent source of income allowing for unnecessary and counterproductive things?

I will have nothing against funding people who will be unfortunate enough to loose a job, but drinking for societies money while also not contributing anything is just too much in my opinion.