Queen Medb's palace

Linnaeus

Here is a link concerning a possible location for the palace of Queen Medb, a semi-mythical warrior ruler of Connacht.

Could anyone tell me if there might be truth in this article? I myself have always liked to believe that Medb was a historical personage, although her story has been fancifully embroidered by legend...

www.queenmaeve.org/rathcrogan.html

recedite

Fixed your link.
(you left out an "h" in the spelling!)

So I have been up to the cairn on top of Knocknarea near Strandhill many times, which is (also) supposedly her grave. Its a nice walk with great views.
She could have been buried at either place, or maybe even the head in one place and the body in the other. In those days they were a bit weird like that.

I don't see any reason to disbelieve she existed as a queen; the ancient celtic peoples were less chauvinist than later Roman and Medieval Europeans. There were other female leaders such as Boudica the ancient Briton, across the water. Indigenous Brehon Laws were also known to be more "feminist" than the laws that replaced them.

Looks like they are doing an interesting tour there of various sites at Rathcroghan. I might go there next summer.
There is another interesting spot half way between those two places that I visited last year; Carrowkeel. There is no interpretive centre or anything, but the tombs are accessible with a bit of a walk, and are in good condition. Probably no coincidence it being half way between Rathcroghan and Knocknarea.

Linnaeus

Hello Recedite,

Thank you for your reply to my post.

From what I've read online and in numerous books concerning Irish mythology, there are two females named Medb who need to be taken into consideration. The first is the famous, splendid Queen of Connacht, protagonist of the Ulster Cycle. She may well have been an historical figure, representing the royal matrilineal succession as it was practiced among Celtic nations prior to the advent of Christianity.

The second Medb is much earlier, reaching far back into the misty beginnings of Indo-European civilization. Her name is apparently related to the word MEAD; and this Medb was, indeed, none other than the goddess of intoxication, the unleasher of wild unbridled passion: a kind of female Dionysius/Bacchus. It is probable that the cult of this Medb goes back to the time before the consolidation of the Celts into tribal and then national units.

At any rate, after many centuries, when the worship of the mead goddess Medb was in decline or had been almost forgotten, bards began to confuse and blend elements of her character and attributes (unbounded passion, ambition, lasciviousness, striking irresistible beauty) with those of the semi-historical Queen Medb. This latter would have thus acquired many of the traits of the femme fatale mead goddess. I suspect that the real Queen Medb could hardly have been so wild, lewd and savage. For all we know, she may have ruled sagely and well in Connacht; she may have had only one or at most two husbands, been kind and modest and may never have drunk mead at all!;)

recedite

I never heard of the earlier goddess version of Medbh before, or the Dionysius/Bacchus link. Still it would not be surprising to find that some sort of temple goddess cult associated with drinking and revelry had made it to the land of the Gael :pac:

One of the recurring images from this cult is the thyrsus; a staff entwined with a vine and topped with a cone. I suspect the cone was actually the hops plant, used in brewing mead, but in European renaissance art it was depicted as a pine cone. Then the pine cone became fashionable as a carved furniture finial, and later arriving in America with the pilgrims it became a pineapple...
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/pineapple-finial
They became popular as a bedpost ornament. Puritan types would not have approved of a symbol harking back to a pagan mead drinking cult, but maybe there was some kind of fertility symbol link, still remaining in the back of their minds. Who knows.
I was amused to see a new pair of massive granite stone hops/pine cone ornaments installed on the wall outside the new Dun Laoghaire library recently. I think mainly as an architectural feature to balance some vaguely cone shaped mechanical objects that are part of the roof. But also they happen to be just outside the wetherspoons pub there, which is a nice touch.

Linnaeus

Dear Recedite,

Thanks for the fascinating information about the "pine cone" which most likely derives from the thyrsus.

The followers of Dionysos (which is the correct Greek form of his name: it has often been Anglicized as "Dionysius") were mainly female. They were known as maenads, from the Greek word mainas, "raving, frantic". Here's an intriguing detail: into the thyrsus, honey was inserted by these maenads. Now, honey is one of the main ingredients of MEAD; it is fermented together with water and sometimes hops to produce a beerlike drink.When the maenads struck rocks with the thyrsus, WATER sprung up.

Linnaeus

Hello again recedite,

Here is a fascinating chronology, dealing with the most remote mythological and prehistoric periods of Ireland, and reaching into historical times. I don't know how accurate this might be, but it's intriguing and thought-provoking.

Best wishes for the holiday season!:)

www.legendarytours.com/dates.html

Lovely Bloke

recedite wrote: »

One of the recurring images from this cult is the thyrsus; a staff entwined with a vine and topped with a cone. I suspect the cone was actually the hops plant, used in brewing mead, but in European renaissance art it was depicted as a pine cone.

Hops are not documented as being used in any brewing process before the 900s AD (or possibly the 600s) but certainly not in BCE times.

recedite

Hops seems to be an innovation from from northern celtic areas of Europe, where nothing was written down, but these peoples were trading and in contact with the Mediterranean peoples.
Here's an interesting document relating to Finnish mythology. Not evidence for anything, but then absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. Ironically, one purpose of this myth could have been to debunk other myths eg that pine cones or bear saliva were useful in brewing ale and mead.
The whole brewing process must have been steeped in mystery, people at the time not knowing about yeast or bacteria, or that boiling water kills bacteria.

dubhthach

Cruachan Aí

Linnaeus

I agree with recedite...The use of hops in making mead must be much older than written records would indicate. If the cone-like object topping the thyrsus is really a pine cone, that would make no sense in the Cult of Intoxication. If on the other hand it represents hops, then this would indeed have significance for the cult.

It would be very interesting to investigate the cultural relations of the ancient Celts with the Greeks, starting in Mycenaean times.The population of Ireland certainly knew of the ancient Greeks and many other nations, as indicated in the fascinating Lebor Gabala Erenn. The Mycenaeans used a script called Linear B, with which they wrote their palace and administrative records. Linear B is still not perfectly understood; one of the unknown words inscribed on the clay tablets may indicate the word for hops.

Fermented beverages were being produced in Europe from remote prehistoric times. The early Greeks brewed some pretty strong stuff of the mead variety for use in the Dionysic cult; it served as a kind of hallucinatory ecstasy drug, and was probably mixed with poppy juice (opiac). The Maenads often went stark mad after prolonged use of this beverage.

The proto-Celts, Indo-Europeans like the Greeks, in very early times seemed to have had an identical Intoxication Cult, with a goddess...Medbh...instead of a god. This would have involved wild, orgiastic ceremonies with terminated in general chaos, just as occured in Mycenaean and Geometric Greece. However, both the Celts and the Greeks, being essentially refined intellectual nations inclined more to high cultural pursuits than to drunken wantonness, soon came to disapprove of such intoxication rites. Gaelic Ireland during the time of Queen Medb (1st century B.C.-1st century A.D.) would have certainly frowned upon this. In Greece itself, already in the Archaic Age, frenzied Bacchic rituals had become rare. Alcoholic beverages were served considerably watered down. Physicians in early historical Ireland and Greece spoke strongly against drunkenness. Some, especially after the establishment of Christianity, advised abstinence from inebriating beverages.

Linnaeus

One further comment...and this may be merely coincidental:

One of the Old English words for hops was "hymele". In spite of its supposed derivation from ancient Scandinavian languages, "hymele" has a strangely Greek morphology. Now, the ancient Greek term for mead was "hydromele". I wonder if the Anglo Saxons might have known that term, and may possibly have modified its pronunciation in referring to hops?

This is just an idea of mine...I would welcome comments from professional etymologists.:)

dubhthach

Given that Lebor Gabála Érenn dates no older than 8th century it's fairly obviously that they would have known about Greeks, after all during this period a number of greek works circulated in Irish translation such as "The Fall of Troy" and the Aeneid (Roman in that case). The whole Lebor Gabála Érenn narrative is about creating a "official history" that ties in with both Biblical and Classical history narratives.

Sanas Cormaic which was composed by Cormac mac Cuilennáin (d. 908AD) who was King-Bishop of Munster contains 77 entries containing referencing greek words.

Linnaeus

You're right about the purpose of Lebor Gabala Erenn. Many Christian "universal histories" used the same plan and format to link recent times with Biblical ancestors and events.

However, I think that contacts between Celts and Greeks had already taken place back in "heroic" times. The Mycenaean trade network was as vast as that of the Phoenicians, their rivals. Both nations sent their maritime merchants far afield in search of raw materials and metals which were lacking in the home country. Ireland, less isolated in prehistory than we might think, had plenty of goods to offer foreign traders. Gold was abundant; there were copper mines, especially in Munster, and bronze items were manufactured. Irish metal weapons and jewellry were exported to the Continent from the early Bronze Age on.

As Homeric sea captains probably learned some Phoenician for the purposes of commercial communication, it is likely that, if Mycenaeans and Irish merchants did come into contact, they would have acquired at least a smattering of each other's languages. Which might account for the numerous loan words to be found in all ancient tongues.

I have read something in Internet about Mycenaean commerce in Ireland and possibly Britain...Will try to retrieve that file, I saw it a few years ago and do not remember the details.

slowburner

Linnaeus wrote: »

Both nations sent their maritime merchants far afield in search of raw materials and metals which were lacking in the home country. Ireland, less isolated in prehistory than we might think, had plenty of goods to offer foreign traders. Gold was abundant; there were copper mines, especially in Munster, and bronze items were manufactured. Irish metal weapons and jewellry were exported to the Continent from the early Bronze Age on.

Evidence?
The copper mines of southwestern Ireland yielded a high cu concentration. But was it in sufficient volume to be a significant exporter? Estimates for volumes produced from Ross Island, Mt. Gabriel and the Beara mines have been significantly reduced from Jackson's estimates. See Prof. Billy O'Brien - the Irish authority on BA mining.
The latest research by Dr. Chris Standish casts significant doubt over the viability of gold deposits in Ireland and based on geochemical analyses, concludes that the likeliest source for the Irish gold lunulae etc. was Cornwall. Not a conclusion that particularly appeals to me, but results is results for the time being.

Linnaeus

Really I'm no expert at all on mining, ancient or modern. I don't know how brisk was Ireland's manufacture and export of copper objects in the Bronze Age. If her native copper ores were insufficient for her domestic production of bronze, Ireland may even have imported some cu, as it now seems that she imported gold. I've just read an interesting news item dated 6 June 2015, presented online by the Morning Ticker: it speaks precisely of what you mentioned in your post, and is entitled "Scientists shocked to find ancient Irish gold came from elsewhere..." Surprising indeed, and disappointing, as ancient Ireland, like Mycenae, always prided herself on being "rich in gold".

Please let me know if the other components beside copper used to manufacture bronze...tin, aluminium, manganese, zinc, or arsenic, for example...were present in ancient Ireland, or had to be imported. Other than copper, what is the main component of ancient Irish bronze?

slowburner

Linnaeus wrote: »

Please let me know if the other components beside copper used to manufacture bronze...tin, aluminium, manganese, zinc, or arsenic, for example...were present in ancient Ireland, or had to be imported. Other than copper, what is the main component of ancient Irish bronze?

Arsenical copper or fahlerz was mined at Ross Island. This ore is harder than non-arsenical copper. Identifying sources is one of the indicators of the expertise of these miners.
Tin is the other major component of bronze. The source is not known, nor has it been investigated to any great extent. One Victorian mineralogist - Mallett (Robert, I think) sampled the Goldmines river in Wicklow for cassiterite and found sufficient quantities there to rival the stream sources in Cornwall. This assertion is not widely held to be credible (Prof. Richard Warner, pers. comm.) - why, I do not know. I heard of another tin source in Wicklow from a contemporary prospector who believed this to be a very rich source. There is a BA metal working site nearby.
Given Chris Standish's recent findings, and if they are not contradicted, then for the time being we can probably assume that the tin also came from Cornwall.

recedite

Here's an article on the Standish findings.

Assuming they can be relied upon,* they indicate a metal ingot trade between Killarney and Cornwall. The craftworkers in Cornwall had tin and gold but they needed copper so they could make bronze. In Killarney they had copper. Gold is a luxury, but bronze was more of a necessity.
Is it possible in this scenario that copper was the most expensive of the three metals? Therefore the Irish had no need (or time) to mine gold. bearing in mind there is also copper in Cornwall, but perhaps not enough considering the amount of tin they had?
Boats going to Cornwall with copper ingots would have to return with some sort of ballast or cargo anyway, so they may as well carry cheap gold and tin ingots. I suppose if anything, the theory if true, shows what skilled navigators they were. Cornwall is not much further than Wicklow, but is a more treacherous open sea crossing. It would have been much easier to carry heavy materials by sea anyway, with the land covered in forests and lacking roads. Cornwall, in turn, is closer to the Basque regions by sea than it is to the Thames valley.

* I'm not qualified to cast doubt on the findings, but I make these 3 observations;
1. The metal analysis is partly based on the proportions of tin and silver in Irish gold artefacts. But as the local goldsmiths were capable of mixing and matching these various metals acording to their own personalised specifications on site anyway, I don't see how these proportions can prove the origin of the ore.

2.The metal analysis is also partly based on the proportions different lead isotopes. The database of the occurence of these isotopes in ores is available here as a spreadsheet. I don't see any great correlation there, ie there seems to be as much variation within Cornwall as there is between Ireland and Cornwall.

3. If there was a sea trade going on, the idea that imported gold was valued more than local gold simply because it was "hard to get" seems unlikely. IMO simple explanations are more likely to be true. A sailor will not return from a trip with an empty boat; it does not make economic sense. Even if there was absolutely nothing of trading value at the other end, he would take back his payment, plus a cargo of rocks for ballast.

slowburner

recedite wrote: »

2.The metal analysis is also partly based on the proportions different lead isotopes. The database of the occurence of these isotopes in ores is available here as a spreadsheet. I don't see any great correlation there, ie there seems to be as much variation within Cornwall as there is between Ireland and Cornwall.

Thanks for the link. Statisticians would no doubt, apply a test of significance to the variation.
I have to confess that I couldn't make head nor tail of the data as it was presented. I am not sure what applies to which, or what was being tested. Care to help?

recedite

Its similar in principle to carbon dating, ie there a couple of different isotopes that are produced as the element decays. These are produced at a relatively constant rate.
But in this case he is not trying to date the material as such, but using the proportions or ratios of one isotope to the other as a means to identify a common geographical origin.

Its also similar in principle to the way that they have identified some of the early metal workers in Britain as having been born on the continent. By analyzing the bones of high status individuals, and checking the ratios of different kinds of minerals and isotopes laid down in the growing childhood bone. Then checking against known ratios present in the ground and the general food supply of different geographical regions.

So in this case he is checking the ratio of lead isotope 206 against two other isotopes of lead; 207 and 208. These ratios are in are columns H, I and J. As you read down the column, a similar ratio indicates a likelihood of similar origin. Then ditto for the next ratio. This is all in the Rohl database.

So I see in for Gold ore in Cork (row 9) the ratios look similar to mixed ores from Ross Island in Kerry (rows 32-42)

If you look at malachite from two areas of Cornwall (rows 277 and 284) there is more variation, with one being more similar to Ross Island than it is to the other Cornish example. So presumably there is considerable geological variation around Cornwall with different fault lines etc.

Now if you check the artefacts database, you can see various weapons and tools, all in and around the same ratios of the British isles ores. Except for a dagger and a halberd in rows 377 and 378, which are completely different. So if this is not an error, it implies the weapons (or the ingots used to manufacture them) were imported from far away.

The third database shows the % of different metals used in the alloys, which is partly under the control of the craftsman/smith, and partly dependent on the ingots/ores used.

So as I say I'm not qualified to contradict the interpretations being made, but from my limited understanding of it, I don't see enough of a pattern there to reach any firm conclusions, except that the halberd and the dagger look like they, or their materials, were imported from afar.

more info here

dubhthach

Slightly off-topic but what should be noted about isotopes and skeletons is they can change ever generation depending on mobility. So for example my other-half was born in the Philippines, our son was born in Dublin, as you can imagine an isotope analysis and comparison of teeth (ouch!) from both would result in drastically different result.

recedite

Yes, but that's the whole point of it. Archaeologists have dug up the skeletons of similar families buried together long ago, and discovered that one member was born a long distance away, which is evidence of their migration.
If the grave goods also indicate high status and earliest use of a particular technology, eg metallurgy, then the indication is that the immigrant introduced those skills. And made a good living from it.

dubhthach

recedite wrote: »

Yes, but that's the whole point of it. Archaeologists have dug up the skeletons of similar families buried together long ago, and discovered that one member was born a long distance away, which is evidence of their migration.
If the grave goods also indicate high status and earliest use of a particular technology, eg metallurgy, then the indication is that the immigrant introduced those skills. And made a good living from it.

Sure but you got to find that "silver bullet" of a family group where one has different isotope signal.

For example imagine you have migrants bringing metallurgy into an area. You don't have the remains of "Generation 0" but you've found remains of "Generation 2,3 and 8" -- by isotope analysis the "Gen 2,3 and 8" remains will look identical to remains that date to period 500 years earlier (from previous material culture but born in same region).

The Amesbury Archer is a good example of one of these "Generation 0" remains, now if only we can get aDNA from him we'll get a better picture.

In comparison to isotope analysis when you get a full genome, not only do you get idea of the actual sample, but you also get a telescoped view into population history (For example was there much inbreeding in ancestry of individual, effective population size etc.)

The other major use of it is for looking for signals of "population discontunity" between sample and previous population (or suceeding population)

recedite

DNA testing is something else entirely, and also very useful.
As you say, being able to cross reference the two gives a very good picture of things.
The Amesbury Archer seems to prove the old saying "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Linnaeus

Dear Recedite,

I've been offline for a while, but would now like to return to a very interesting point that you made in post #17, concerning the relative value of metals in ancient times. Man has always loved the radiant brilliance of pure gold, and practically since the first time he discovered gold ore, he has preferred this metal for luxury items. Yet copper, as you well commented, is by far a more useful, practical metal. Copper is essential in the production of bronze, as are certain alloys, especially tin and arsenic. Given the widely extensive use of bronze until and even beyond the birth of ironmaking techniques, your comment that copper may have outvalued gold is certainly worthy of consideration.

Tin was so highly prized during the Bronze Age that merchants and sea captains often travelled very far afield in order to obtain it. In ancient times...and this is significant, considering your theory about relative values...mariners and traders took far more risks to acquire copper and tin, than to find gold. Gold and silver would probably have arrived more frequently in Ireland as gifts from foreign potentates and dignitaries, or through piracy. Merchants principally set their sights on other types of metals: apparently more precious in their eyes, because more useful and more marketable.

Please let me know what was the proportion of gold and copper/bronze manufactures in Ireland from the ripe Iron Age onwards. It would be interesting to compare Iron Age commerce with that prevalent in the Bronze Age.

recedite

Linnaeus wrote: »

Please let me know what was the proportion of gold and copper/bronze manufactures in Ireland from the ripe Iron Age onwards. It would be interesting to compare Iron Age commerce with that prevalent in the Bronze Age.

I've no idea unfortunately!
Even if you knew when the stuff was mined or smelted, another complication is that it is easy enough to melt down gold items at a later stage, and recycle them into something else more fashionable.