Are Villa already too far gone?

CSF

obezyana wrote: »

Maybe so but at least they are trying whereas Villa don't. The money coming into the PL should be motivation to want to stay in the division. Villa seemed to have not seen or planned for this. Other clubs have even some championship clubs have invested to make the best attempt at getting to the promised land. They see potential they see the money the rewards and your right most of em will probably be short lived and some will even go the way of Villa but and this is the important bit, Villa have been piss poor for the last few years and they have been declining at a rapid rate but yet and still the owner and the people running the club let it happen because they did not have the foresight or the ambition to fight for their status in the PL. They like some fans believed the crap that they were to big to go down.

Signing Ayew, Veretout, Amavi, Gueye, Gestede, Traore all for about 10 million each was trying. Signing Micah Richards on a bumper Bosman wage was trying. It was just a really **** attempt. Having Tactics Tim (I'll admit I liked him last year but it went south very quickly) integrate all the new foreign players was a recipe for disaster. But it isn't as if Villa rested on their laurels. It's just that the people running the club and the transfer policy are really bad at it.

CSF

K-9 wrote: »

Palace had to establish themselves though. West Brom have done that after being a yo-yo club.

Yeah West Brom are another good example. And they don't play good football, but who cares if you overachieve?

obezyana

CSF wrote: »

Signing Ayew, Veretout, Amavi, Gueye, Gestede, Traore all for about 10 million each was trying. Signing Micah Richards on a bumper Bosman wage was trying. It was just a really **** attempt. Having Tactics Tim (I'll admit I liked him last year but it went south very quickly) integrate all the new foreign players was a recipe for disaster. But it isn't as if Villa rested on their laurels. It's just that the people running the club and the transfer policy are really bad at it.

You can sign all the best players in the world and still be ****. Who is to say they will play well together. A successful club starts at the very top. The ambition, belief, desire will then feed down through the rest. Clubs will go through good and bad times but the well run clubs will have more good than bad.

The club has no ambition the have no direction and yes it is the people running the club who are to blame everyone can see that. Villa need investment they need to clear out some people at the top and re build the club. They are possibly on a road from which they may not return for a long time.

K-9

CSF wrote: »

Yeah West Brom are another good example. And they don't play good football, but who cares if you overachieve?

Staying up for 6 or 7 years isn't over achieving though, that's when it becomes the norm.

No fan of Pulisball but it's effective and got them out of bother.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Leroy42 wrote: »

It depends of what you use as the criteria for judging a club size. If you take the current position, then Leeds are a Championship club, Vila soon will be, the same with Wednesday.

So teams like Palace, Watford etc are bigger clubs. They have more money (well more in terms if incoming anyway), more ability to attract bigger name players, more appealing to sponsors.

The only criteria with which to place teams like Villa ahead of them is history. But its the very notion of history that leads clubs to think they cannot not possibly go down. It leads to clubs like Villa to sleepwalk into the crisis they find themselves in.

No team has a devine right to win, or even compete. What you find is that success tends to bring future success if handled correctly. Win something, build something and better players will start to come, better managers, better results lead to more fans, more money, more sponsors, better players and around we go.

But as Liverpool have found, past glories will only insulate you for so long. Utd are finding they have to pay more and more to get players to move to them, as the potential success is diminishings so money is used to compensate. Whilst in the current situation Utd can afford it, that will not last and eventually the money will start to decrease and the merry go round turns the other way.

In terms of the fans, it is the very notion that fans must be seen to support the players/manager despite what is being produced that enables club to get away with selling their top players each year. Fans are of the opinion that they are somehow bad people if they refuse to accept bad performance. It seems to prove you are a fan if you continue to support your team no matter what.

But it is that very trueism, that fans will accept anything, that allows boards of clubs to act they way they do. There is literally no consequence for them.

Villa assumed they were good enough, by dint of others being worse, of staying in the gravy train of the EPL despite doing nothing about it. Of course they didn't set out to get relegated, but the lack of any clear plan and it appears the stronger desire to spend as little as possible was the driving force.

+1.

Very good post.

Bounty Hunter

Leroy42 wrote: »

The only criteria with which to place teams like Villa ahead of them is history. But its the very notion of history that leads clubs to think they cannot not possibly go down. It leads to clubs like Villa to sleepwalk into the crisis they find themselves in.

No team has a devine right to win, or even compete. .

This is a weird arguement that has started up. Nobody said Villa had a divine right to be in the league or anything of the sort I believe that one person said they would be a loss.

Most Villa fans would say (and have) that the way the club has been run recently means that relegation is what the people running the club deserve but I do find it odd that you think history is the only way Villa would be considered a bigger club than those mentioned.

What about stadium size or fanbase? for just two.

These are the type of things that that poster was refering to and they are also the reason that if Villa had been run better the last few years mean that the club would have had a far better chance to compete at the top end of the premiership than some other clubs mentioned.

Those other clubs however have been run far better in recent years and truly deserve to be where they are currently as a result of that.

Harry Palmr

Sometimes relegation acts like an enema, it seems Villa are a club that could so with a genuine clear out (like Sunderland as it happens).

CSF

obezyana wrote: »

You can sign all the best players in the world and still be ****. Who is to say they will play well together. A successful club starts at the very top. The ambition, belief, desire will then feed down through the rest. Clubs will go through good and bad times but the well run clubs will have more good than bad.

The club has no ambition the have no direction and yes it is the people running the club who are to blame everyone can see that. Villa need investment they need to clear out some people at the top and re build the club. They are possibly on a road from which they may not return for a long time.

I'm sorry. I don't get it. Surely spending loads of money is the exact definition of ambition? It was just done terribly. All the ambition in the world won't make you a good team unless you've good people running the club and spending the money and Villa do not.

Bounty Hunter

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Sometimes relegation acts like an enema, it seems Villa are a club that could so with a genuine clear out (like Sunderland as it happens).

I'm a little worried about this. Not saying we won't shift some deadwood on the playing side but even then who the hell will pay Gabby or Guzan the money they are currently on?

but... Lerner has been trying to sell Villa for a few years now, and as a championship club surely he will not get the money he will be looking for and infact might be less likely to sell up and move on, instead hoping to get them to bounce back up to the premiership where he can sell and can a better return on his investment.

Until Lerner is gone despite the fact that I believe he is probably a well meaning guy I dunno if Villa will progress that much. This season for example Villa invested a lot of money or so it seemed with all those signings but in actual fact they only spent the Delph, Benteke, Weimann money plus a little bit more. Considering the TV money etc and how much those around them were spending without Benteke type sales there should have been more money available for some players who weren't brand new to the league, primarily for a CF, Benteke replacement which they really badly needed. Someone like Austin for example for 12m could have made a massive difference but instead we just spent what Randy thought would be enough to get us through the season until he could hopefully sell up

obezyana

CSF wrote: »

I'm sorry. I don't get it. Surely spending loads of money is the exact definition of ambition? It was just done terribly. All the ambition in the world won't make you a good team unless you've good people running the club and spending the money and Villa do not.

You don't need loads of money to be ambitious. You need a goal, you need focus, you need direction, you need the right personnel, all of these can make a club successful.

Money is huge part of a football clubs make up that is obvious but there are clubs who have managed their money alot better than Villa. This is what the smaller clubs are aiming for it is their ambition to get the the PL and remain there. Villa did not do this. They believed their own hype that they were too big to go down. They invested in players who were not good enough. The had managers leave because the club lacked ambition. They are a club who have lost their identity their hunger. I dont think they will come back up for a few years. They will end up being a mid table Championship team for a few years.

CSF

obezyana wrote: »

You don't need loads of money to be ambitious. You need a goal, you need focus, you need direction, you need the right personnel, all of these can make a club successful.

Money is huge part of a football clubs make up that is obvious but there are clubs who have managed their money alot better than Villa. This is what the smaller clubs are aiming for it is their ambition to get the the PL and remain there. Villa did not do this. They believed their own hype that they were too big to go down. They invested in players who were not good enough. The had managers leave because the club lacked ambition. They are a club who have lost their identity their hunger. I dont think they will come back up for a few years. They will end up being a mid table Championship team for a few years.

I'm sorry but you're not actually making a point here other than that Villa aren't very good, which is obvious. Villa clearly didn't intentionally spend the guts of 60 million on players they knew weren't good enough. That is a ridiculous argument. Your argument is based entirely on hindsight.

Villa aren't going down because of an unambiguous transfer or management appointment policy, or because they rested on their laurels thinking they were too big to go down. Instead going down because of a **** transfer and management appointment policy that splurged away a lot of money.

Paully D

CSF wrote: »

It's the same in most countries too, clubs on a rush of positive momentum generally perform better than clubs in a prolonged rut.

Obviously I'd have rathered to stay up, but going down might be the low point that brings on a rush of positive momentum. Unfortunately it might not even yet be the low point and you're not much less likely to be a Blackburn or worse a Leeds than you are to bounce back at the first attempt.

Over the past 10 seasons, a team who is relegated from the Premier League to the Championship has only a 26% chance of returning at the first attempt. 50% of relegated teams have not been back in the top flight since. 30% have actually dropped at least another division.

Frightening.

The only somewhat positive aspect from my point of view as a Sunderland fan is that we generally always bounce back quickly enough. Of course that doesn't really mean a whole lot, but I've got to hang on to something.

Knex*

Villa need a new owner, more than anything. If in the long run, they need to get relegated in order to push that though, and get the club into some decent hands, then ultimately it will benefit them. That's if that actually brings down Lerner's asking price and he is still willing to sell.

They are a big club with decent resources, a good owner who puts a solid foundation down would see them right.

Lerner shouldn't be left near any sports organisation. A total disaster.

obezyana

Villa are being run to the ground by the choices of their board and owner. They have no forwarding thinking at the club. It has nothing to do with hindsight. I would bet they will not get promoted next season. The wrong people are at the club. The fault lies with the owner and board not with the players or manager. The players and managers can only go with what the club give them. A club needs a strong leader to lead them Villa have got no one to do that. They need investment from some one who has a goal for the club. They need someone who will steer them in the right direction.

This rot started years ago. The lack of ambition has filtered down to the players the managers the staff the fans so the club is posioned with negativity. If I were a Villa fan I'd be very worried about the future of the club. Leeds United are the club everyone should look at and not want to become.

Buford T. Justice XIX

CSF wrote: »

I'm sorry but you're not actually making a point here other than that Villa aren't very good, which is obvious. Villa clearly didn't intentionally spend the guts of 60 million on players they knew weren't good enough. That is a ridiculous argument. Your argument is based entirely on hindsight.

Villa aren't going down because of an unambiguous transfer or management appointment policy, or because they rested on their laurels thinking they were too big to go down. Instead going down because of a **** transfer and management appointment policy that splurged away a lot of money.

Assuming villa go down, how many of the starting 14(team + 3 subs) would you see remaining at the club next year.

Tbh, I wouldn't see demand for many of the team from PL teams but I don't watch villa much so have little insight into their best players.

Richard Hillman

Knex. wrote: »

Lerner shouldn't be left near any sports organisation. A total disaster.

There is a video knocking about with an experiment of seeing if a coop of chickens can complete a better NFL Draft than the Cleveland Browns. They put the names of the best NFL Draft prospects in a pen and whoever the chickens went to first that would determine who the chickens drafted.

The chickens made far superior picks to the Browns.

http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/12/23/10661252/cleveland-browns-vs-barnyard-chickens

Bounty Hunter

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Assuming villa go down, how many of the starting 14(team + 3 subs) would you see remaining at the club next year.

Tbh, I wouldn't see demand for many of the team from PL teams but I don't watch villa much so have little insight into their best players.

Guzan - I'd be happy if someone took him off our hands but who will pay him the wages he's on at Villa considering how poor he has been the past year.

Hutton - He will probably stay, he is championship standard imo

Amavi - Doubt he would leave in the summer after being injured essentially since he signed. Looked really good which is a pity but he'd be with Villa till at least January I'd say

Richards - Being the captain now may change things but he could move cos maybe someone would pay him what he is on atm and he might have a relegation release clause for all I know.

Lescott - I don't want him to stay next year but again at his age I doubt anyone will pay him what he's getting at Villa so he will proably retire after a year in the championship.

also in defense: Okore / Clark - At least one Will probably be starting in CB for Villa next year, Okore most likely and he has the potential to improve more but then again I wouldn't be shocked if a newly promoted team or a West Brom type side was willing to take a punt on one of them.

Cissokho (has just been recalled from his loan) will be sold on after covering for for Amavi for the rest of the season.
Illori will not be signed once his loan is done. Given his lack of game time I'm not sure why he was loaned in the first place even though I had thought it a smart move at the time. I'd happily see him get a chance but after his lack of game time why would he want to stay instead of return to Liverpool or move elsewhere.

Bacuna could get a move as he is on low wages and wouldn't cost too much. Wouldn't mind keeping him but if we struggle to shift others on I wouldn't be shocked to see him move

midfield sees Westwood who would most likely stay. Gueye and Sanchez who might be ones who could get a move elsewhere, most likely not in England though.

Veretout could impress enough in the 2nd half of the season to get someone to spend money on him but Villa payed a lot so unless he has a relegation release clause he might stay for a while despite being highly rated. Ayew could be in a similar situation.

Grealish you would think would stay although he is one I where it would not be a surprise if his agnt tried to keep him in the premiership.

Sinclair could move for a low enough price so maybe that'd entice some newly promoted team to pay his wages.

Adama who knows, I'd like if he stayed and got a lot more game time.

Gestede can score in the championship so would probably stay

Gabby is someone Villa would be happy to move on but who would pay his wages. Kozak will surely be gone in January but if not I doubt he will be at Villa next year.

CSF

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Assuming villa go down, how many of the starting 14(team + 3 subs) would you see remaining at the club next year.

Tbh, I wouldn't see demand for many of the team from PL teams but I don't watch villa much so have little insight into their best players.

It might sound crazy, but I'd like to see a large portion of the squad stay, assuming they've relegation wage drop clauses.

New goalkeeper a must. Wouldn't want Guzan even in League One. Hopefully this happens in January.

Defensively I'd think it's as much a case of who you can hold onto, rather than who you can get rid of. If someone told me you could have a defensive panel of Amavi, Clark, Okore, Richards, Hutton and Bacuna next year in the Championship, I'd be happy enough with maybe 1 or 2 Championship stalwarts. Get rid of Lescott, Richardson and Cissokho.

There'll be loads of change in midfield, I would like to hang onto Sanchez, Gueye, Veretout and Westwood, but you need wide players too. Traore won't be staying, Gil probably won't either, if you could get any sort of money for Grealish in double figures based on the hype, I'd take it.

New striker needed in January, but I'd be happy to keep Ayew and Gestede. Gabby has to go. Probably Sinclair too.

Of course all this depends on players wanting to play in the Championship and their wages. I don't know these people or have a copy of their contract so I guess we will see.

CSF

Paully D wrote: »

Over the past 10 seasons, a team who is relegated from the Premier League to the Championship has only a 26% chance of returning at the first attempt. 50% of relegated teams have not been back in the top flight since. 30% have actually dropped at least another division.

Frightening.

The only somewhat positive aspect from my point of view as a Sunderland fan is that we generally always bounce back quickly enough. Of course that doesn't really mean a whole lot, but I've got to hang on to something.

Yup, that percentage would be higher for a Villa or a Sunderland because they'll have a higher budget to work with, but still, make no mistake about it, it will be a tough slog.

Laois_Man

3-1 down at Sunderland

They certainly are too far gone now!

Bounty Hunter

close the thread

The Question has been answered

topmanamillion

Irish Jack, English Jack,
There's no coming back, back
You're playing in the championship!

astonaidan

topmanamillion wrote: »

Irish Jack, English Jack,
There's no coming back, back
You're playing in the championship!

You are a tool of the highest order, no one gives a **** if Jack picked England over Ireland

irishguitarlad

astonaidan wrote: »

You are a tool of the highest order, no one gives a **** if Jack picked England over Ireland

Cos he's ****

obezyana

With Villa believing they are a big club imagine how massive a club they will think they are in the Championship. A mid table finish next year for em.

topmanamillion

astonaidan wrote: »

You are a tool of the highest order, no one gives a **** if Jack picked England over Ireland

I believe he's as relevant as Aston Villa are in Ireland.

CSF

obezyana wrote: »

With Villa believing they are a big club imagine how massive a club they will think they are in the Championship. A mid table finish next year for em.

Your post makes no sense.

Bounty Hunter

jesus whats wrong with people.

hope you feel big laughing at a club and their support when they are hurting. I'm sure in some way this proves you were right about your opinion re Grealish or Villas stature as a club so clearly you should choose now to bring up these topics and say to everyone ha ha I was right

obezyana

CSF wrote: »

Your post makes no sense.

Seen as they think they are a big club given they are now dropping a level and will play against some lesser teams they now may feel hey are no longer a big club but a massive club as they will think they will walk the Championship which I don't think they will, they will become a mid table Championship team.

Gavlor

K-9 wrote: »

That's like me saying Liverpool should be in the CL every year because of our history and size!

No team has a right or deserve to be in anything because of history or size. If the likes of Palace or Southampton establish themselves at others expense, so be it.

Forest, Leeds, Wednesday, Bolton etc. are all there because better ran clubs are in the PL. Plus with the TV
money the way it is going, even stadium size isn't as big a deal for the likes of Palace.

Liverpool fans do say and think that!!

The big 4 plus liverpool & maybe spurs are just going to get bigger. The likes of Watford & palace am have no chance of expanding sufficiently to challenge them so once this outlier of a season is over, normal service will be resumed and the PL will be minus a club big enough to have the potential to stay on the coat tails of the top 6.

That said, villa, Leeds & the likes of Wednesday have been run with the business acumen of a transition year school shop and in that regard deserve to be where they are (along with those deluded Geordies!!)

CSF

obezyana wrote: »

Seen as they think they are a big club given they are now dropping a level and will play against some lesser teams they now may feel hey are no longer a big club but a massive club as they will think they will walk the Championship which I don't think they will, they will become a mid table Championship team.

Who is they? The fans? The people who have no say in this mess. The players? You think they're putting in bad performances having not won a game since the first game because they're coasting through games thinking they'll win anyway because they play for a big club? Nonsense. I'd imagine confidence is as low as it can be.

If not the players, the managers maybe? When have Sherwood or Garde ever been able to coast by on anything, or Lambert, Houllier or McLeish before them? Never, it's been one relegation battle after another for a number of years now. I honestly can't remember one person assume Villa were too big a club to go down throughout any of this mess.

So if not those, then it must be the owners of the club? Lerner? Nope. Chap has just mentally checked out. Wants to sell and has no enthusiasm left to put into the club. Money was spent, but it was spent by Fox and Almstadt whose only interest is to push as many people in front of the bus so that the bus never reaches them. No complacency from Lerner, just disinterest.

Your posts make pretty much no sense. You keep coming out with ridiculous posts that show pretty much no knowledge of what's gone on or going on at Villa at present. And when challenged on this, you keep coming out with these remarks of how Villa are **** and are likely enough not to come back up or do well.

And these are strawman arguments because nobody ever claimed otherwise. Nobody's claiming Villa will stay up, or are too big a club to go down, or that will Villa will be back up next year because they're too big a club to stay down. I think the most someone that wasn't a Villa fan said was that it'd be a pity to see such a big club go down.

So what are you actually talking about?

irishguitarlad

Its sad to see Villa the way they are, went to see them a few times when I lived in Birmingham, witnessed them beat chelsea. Anyways I hope they rebuild fast and come back strong!!

pavb2

CSF wrote: »

Nobody's claiming Villa will stay up, or are too big a club to go down, or that will Villa will be back up next year because they're too big a club to stay down. I think the most someone that wasn't a Villa fan said was that it'd be a pity to see such a big club go down.

Indeed there seems to be a false narrative amongst some that Villa and their fans have some sort of arrogance, right or sense of entitlement to their PL status.

obezyana

CSF wrote: »

Who is they? The fans? The people who have no say in this mess. The players? You think they're putting in bad performances having not won a game since the first game because they're coasting through games thinking they'll win anyway because they play for a big club? Nonsense. I'd imagine confidence is as low as it can be.

If not the players, the managers maybe? When have Sherwood or Garde ever been able to coast by on anything, or Lambert, Houllier or McLeish before them? Never, it's been one relegation battle after another for a number of years now. I honestly can't remember one person assume Villa were too big a club to go down throughout any of this mess.

So if not those, then it must be the owners of the club? Lerner? Nope. Chap has just mentally checked out. Wants to sell and has no enthusiasm left to put into the club. Money was spent, but it was spent by Fox and Almstadt whose only interest is to push as many people in front of the bus so that the bus never reaches them. No complacency from Lerner, just disinterest.

Your posts make pretty much no sense. You keep coming out with ridiculous posts that show pretty much no knowledge of what's gone on or going on at Villa at present. And when challenged on this, you keep coming out with these remarks of how Villa are **** and are likely enough not to come back up or do well.

And these are strawman arguments because nobody ever claimed otherwise. Nobody's claiming Villa will stay up, or are too big a club to go down, or that will Villa will be back up next year because they're too big a club to stay down. I think the most someone that wasn't a Villa fan said was that it'd be a pity to see such a big club go down.

So what are you actually talking about?

I'm talking about Villa being ****.

CSF

obezyana wrote: »

I'm talking about Villa being ****.

Ok, so no actual points to make then, sound.

Corholio

obezyana wrote: »

With Villa believing they are a big club imagine how massive a club they will think they are in the Championship. A mid table finish next year for em.

As a club Villa shouldn't be going down, an anyway well run Aston Villa as a club should not be relegated. Villa are a reasonably big club, I don't know why people get so tetchy on internet forums about someone saying such and such is a big club. As a team certainly they will go down and very much deserve too.

GLaDOS

At this point you'd imagine it would take a miracle for them to stay up.

kevthegaff

I've heard villa fans when o Neill was in charge giving out, the man had the club fighting for Europe most years he was in charge, I couldn't believe it! Managers have been shocking since tho

keith16

Anyone who thinks Villa are not a big club, is a complete fool.

A team from England's second city who have played more topflight seasons than almost every club in England, one of only 6 or 7 clubs to play every season in the premier league.

CSF

kevthegaff wrote: »

I've heard villa fans when o Neill was in charge giving out, the man had the club fighting for Europe most years he was in charge, I couldn't believe it! Managers have been shocking since tho

O'Neill set what has happened since in motion. There was so much dross on long-term contracts for future managers to get off the wagebill. A huge financial strain on the club.

Obviously Lerner is ultimately the most culpable, followed by Almstadt and Fox.

But had the likes of Reo-Coker, Sidwell, Shorey, Luke Young, Cuellar, Heskey, Beye, Warnock, Collins, Dunne not been on the wagebill earning between 30-60k and producing very little, the (admittedly average) managers that followed would have been better funded to build a squad that mightn't have been quite as poor as Villa have in the years that followed.

O'Neill did well on the pitch at Villa, and not all the signings were terrible. There were some good ones. But ultimately the wagebill full of dross above crippled the managers that followed and essentially O'Neill's terrible use of his budget, and Lerner signing those cheques set in motion the demise that after 5 near misses, will eventually see Villa relegated this season.

blueser

ScienceNerd wrote: »

At this point you'd imagine it would take a miracle for them to stay up.

As I posted a page or two back (before this thread got somewhat tetchy), I just cant see them getting 10 wins from, what, 18 games now (?) to get up to 38 points, which may be enough to stay up. They've only won 1 out of the first 20. It's too big a turn around in fortune. People will say Leicester, Sunderland and Wigan have done similar in previous seasons. Not really, to be fair. Each of those clubs went on a run, but over a shorter span of games (7 or 8 or 9, maybe?). Villa would have to go on CL qualification form from here on in. And they haven't got the goals in them. IMO, they're dead in the water.

Hammer Archer

Think in the long run it'll be best for Villa to go down. For us 5 or 6 seasons ago, we deservedly went down after two seasons struggling and it meant that we could get rid of some of the deadwood in the side while also giving some younger players the chance to get game time (Winston Reid was atrocious in his first PL season but the season in the Championship did him the world of good).

I couldn't see Villa spending too long in the Championship if/when they go down. When they get back up, I'd expect them to be much stronger than the last few seasons.

Paully D

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Think in the long run it'll be best for Villa to go down. For us 5 or 6 seasons ago, we deservedly went down after two seasons struggling and it meant that we could get rid of some of the deadwood in the side while also giving some younger players the chance to get game time (Winston Reid was atrocious in his first PL season but the season in the Championship did him the world of good).

I couldn't see Villa spending too long in the Championship if/when they go down. When they get back up, I'd expect them to be much stronger than the last few seasons.

I agree that's the ideal and feel the same as a Sunderland fan, but the worry is that West Ham (and to a lesser extent Newcastle) are very much the exception to the rule and the situation you have outlined is one that fans of almost every team think is going to happen when they get relegated. However, you're statistically actually more likely to get relegated again to League 1 than to come back up.

Wilberto

Paully D wrote: »

I agree that's the ideal and feel the same as a Sunderland fan, but the worry is that West Ham (and to a lesser extent Newcastle) are very much the exception to the rule and the situation you have outlined is one that fans of almost every team think is going to happen when they get relegated. However, you're statistically actually more likely to get relegated again to League 1 than to come back up.

I'm not sure that's quite true if you're going on the stats that you put up a few days ago (which were still fascinating btw). Going on those, you're actually just more likely to get relegated again eventually than go up at the first attempt. It doesn't have a percentage of the clubs that make it back eventually (after the first season).

Paully D

Wilberto wrote: »

I'm not sure that's quite true if you're going on the stats that you put up a few days ago (which were still fascinating btw). Going on those, you're actually just more likely to get relegated again eventually than go up at the first attempt. It doesn't have a percentage of the clubs that make it back eventually (after the first season).

You're correct mate. Oversight on my part.

I'll have to try and dig out a statistic on that.

BMMachine

CSF wrote: »

the likes of Reo-Coker, Sidwell, Shorey, Luke Young, Cuellar, Heskey, Beye, Warnock, Collins, Dunne

jaysus. Think we've found the problem
Except Dunne though, he gets a free pass for ummm reasons..

there has been such a shlock of overpaid and underwhelming players there for years

obezyana

CSF wrote: »

Ok, so no actual points to make then, sound.

Villa are going down because of the clowns running the club. They have invested in average players and their fans (some) believed they are to big to go down. I don't understand what points you need to see.

The bottom line is Villa have clowns running the club who have in turn steered the club to the Championship, their players are average at best and you and many Villa supporters are scrambling for excuses and getting offended because others belittle the great Aston Villa. They are in turmoil, they are in my opinion going to be stuck in the Championship for a few years and this has been comming for years.

You have to be kidding blaming O Neill for this? ffs iv seen it all now.

Bounty Hunter

obezyana wrote: »

Villa are going down because of the clowns running the club. They have invested in average players and their fans (some) believed they are to big to go down. I don't understand what points you need to see.

The bottom line is Villa have clowns running the club who have in turn steered the club to the Championship, their players are average at best and you and many Villa supporters are scrambling for excuses and getting offended because others belittle the great Aston Villa. They are in turmoil, they are in my opinion going to be stuck in the Championship for a few years and this has been comming for years.

You have to be kidding blaming O Neill for this? ffs iv seen it all now.

Why the hell would you "belittle" someone elses club to begin with? and should you for whatever reason find the need to belittle another club it should come as no surprise to you that the fans of that club would get annoyed.

All the Villa fans here and in the Villa thread have made the same points as yourself about the people running the club doing a terrible job except in more detail. I don't think I've seen any of them say Villa were too big a club to go down so I have no idea why you have decided to come in here and make that you main point (a little less so now that you've been called out on it) to try and beat Villa fans when they are already down with.

and yes the fallout of the O'Neil days is part of the reason although if you read most of what the Villa fans posted you'd see that they blame Lerner as the man who eventually okayed all of O'Neils moves. O Neil did pretty well for Villa in terms of results etc but when Lerner stopped backing him financially as he had promised he walked. Lerner stopped backing him because as people pointed out Villa's wage bill had become massively inflated and in many cases these big wages were being wasted on poor players who didn't even get their games and who had little or no sell on value (many like Reo-Coker left on a free after costing 8.5m). Habib Beye for example in a two and a half year spell (after which Villa payed off his contract) cost the club just under £9 million in fee and wages for just 15 starts and three subs appearances.

This is not being cited as the main cause of all this however just one in a long list of things that lead to Villas current situation. Some terrible managerial appointments highlighted by Alex McLeish getting the Villa job are examples of this but many do look at it as when Lerner stopped backing Villa to the same degree financially. Once he wanted to sell up this became even more clear with him not wanting to invest more than he had to keep Villa at their level before a new person took over. This never happened and Villa stood still and as a result actually regressed season upon season until now.

Wilberto

It's amazing though. Villa fans were actually glad to see the back of Doug Ellis, but I don't think this would have ever happened if he was still in charge. That said, they probably wouldn't have got three sixth placed finishes in a row either (or something like that). It's one of those "be careful what you wish for" type scenarios.


Personally, I kinda hope Villa stay in the championship for a couple of season, but not for the reason you think. My brother's a Villa fan and I'm a Southend United fan, and I long for the day that we're in the same division as another team that's supported in our house. The other team is Man City so I don't think we'll be joining them any time soon.

We'd definitely head over for that match anyway!! Unfortunately, it looks increasingly unlikely that it'll come about next season due to ourselves not holding up our end of the deal.

BoJack Horseman

Who would have thought that the former owner of the Cleveland Browns would inflict similar failure upon Villa!

It will be odd that England's 2nd city & its environs may have no team in the EPL next season (depending on Wolverhampton promotion push)