Bdgp

Green&Red

Grueller wrote: »

I would say the beep-s is the successor and is already in place.

I wouldn't agree with this at all, BEEP is partially aimed at gathering information for emissions targets.

BDGP was solely aimed at increasing the female genetic characteristics of the Irish herd

Bellview

Hard Knocks wrote: »

I think Beeps is a far better program
Sadly there’s allot of cost

Disagree with you on costs .. Cost not bad as rent scales 50 .. and if you feed a bag of feed to a calf it covers the meal feeding.. so you get 40 for spending 8 .. nothing wrong with the scheme Return

Bellview

Green&Red wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with this at all, BEEP is partially aimed at gathering information for emissions targets.

BDGP was solely aimed at increasing the female genetic characteristics of the Irish herd

In my view they should tie the weight gains to the Star rating as you can have ie2 star cow putting on1.5kg a day while another could be putting on 0.6 kg a day.. if there is a trend of poor performance then icbf should hammer the low weight gain while lifting the higher weight gains

Green&Red

Bellview wrote: »

In my view they should tie the weight gains to the Star rating as you can have ie2 star cow putting on1.5kg a day while another could be putting on 0.6 kg a day.. if there is a trend of poor performance then icbf should hammer the low weight gain while lifting the higher weight gains

Disagree with that too. A big huge cow isn’t what they are looking for, if you’ve a cow putting on a pile of weight then it’ll cause trouble calving and effect milk levels

Green&Red

Bellview wrote: »

Disagree with you on costs .. Cost not bad as rent scales 50 .. and if you feed a bag of feed to a calf it covers the meal feeding.. so you get 40 for spending 8 .. nothing wrong with the scheme Return

Agreed, the BEEP scheme is money for jam

Lady Haywire

Green&Red wrote: »

Disagree with that too. A big huge cow isn’t what they are looking for, if you’ve a cow putting on a pile of weight then it’ll cause trouble calving and effect milk levels

I assumed Bellview was on about the cow's calves, not the cow herself?

Grueller

Green&Red wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with this at all, BEEP is partially aimed at gathering information for emissions targets.

BDGP was solely aimed at increasing the female genetic characteristics of the Irish herd

Nope. BDGP stated mission was to increase the output of the beef herd by driving efficiency. This in turn was then spun as an environmental scheme ie more kilos of beef from less animals = less emissions. That's the rational that secured the funding from Europe.

Green&Red

Grueller wrote: »

Nope. BDGP stated mission was to increase the output of the beef herd by driving efficiency. This in turn was then spun as an environmental scheme ie more kilos of beef from less animals = less emissions. That's the rational that secured the funding from Europe.

Not accurate, from their own material

BDGP I - "The programme will address widely acknowledged weaknesses in the maternal genetics of the Irish suckler herd"

By the time BDGP II had come along this was widened to:

"The objectives of the BDGP II are:
1. To lower the intensity of greenhouse gas emissions by improving the quality and efficiency of the national beef herd.
2. To improve the genetic merit of the national beef herd through the collection of data and genotypes of selected animals which will allow for the application of genomic selection in the beef herd."

Grueller

Green&Red wrote: »

Not accurate, from their own material

BDGP I - "The programme will address widely acknowledged weaknesses in the maternal genetics of the Irish suckler herd"

By the time BDGP II had come along this was widened to:

"The objectives of the BDGP II are:
1. To lower the intensity of greenhouse gas emissions by improving the quality and efficiency of the national beef herd.
2. To improve the genetic merit of the national beef herd through the collection of data and genotypes of selected animals which will allow for the application of genomic selection in the beef herd."

Beef Data and Genomics Programme (BDGP) Explained
By Sinéad Devaney, Teagasc Adviser, Galway/Clare Regional Unit
This scheme was approved by the EU Commission on the basis of climate change
benefits while at the same time improving the genetic merit of the national beef
herd. Agriculture comes under the spotlight when greenhouse gases (GHG) are
mentioned. For Ireland cattle are deemed to be the worst offenders. The
environmental solution would be to cut cattle numbers but the Irish solution
instead is to breed more sustainable profitable animals. The Beef Data and
Genomics scheme aims to do just that. It aims to breed cows that are more fertile,
docile, with more milk and producing a calf per cow per year. Increasing the
€urostars of the suckler herd results in more calves/cow/year and less greenhouse
gases per livestock unit. Benefits of €30/cow/year can be got on top of the scheme
payment of some €90/cow/year.

Teagasc publication upon launch of the scheme. Seems we are both correct.

Bellview

Green&Red wrote: »

Disagree with that too. A big huge cow isn’t what they are looking for, if you’ve a cow putting on a pile of weight then it’ll cause trouble calving and effect milk levels

my point is more what the cow produces ie if you have cows in a field regardless of size that rear a calf that is gaining 1.5kg a day.. then they should stay and if you have cows that their calves are gaining 0.7kg a day they need to be culled

ideally you want a small cow rearing a massive calf but this does not always happen.. i get tired of lads talking about massive cows and they breed runts etc

on a personal level i'm hard on culling etc and if i see a cow that ie loses a calf if too fat .. then she is with larry so solves the problem .. and generally over time you finish up with a pretty functional herd (at least in theory)

Bellview

Lady Haywire wrote: »

I assumed Bellview was on about the cow's calves, not the cow herself?

correct - i'm more interested in the offspring

Green&Red

Bellview wrote: »

correct - i'm more interested in the offspring

How do you differentiate between the calf that’s on meal?
Weight gain isn’t a level playing field.

Hard Knocks

Bellview wrote: »

my point is more what the cow produces ie if you have cows in a field regardless of size that rear a calf that is gaining 1.5kg a day.. then they should stay and if you have cows that their calves are gaining 0.7kg a day they need to be culled

ideally you want a small cow rearing a massive calf but this does not always happen.. i get tired of lads talking about massive cows and they breed runts etc

on a personal level i'm hard on culling etc and if i see a cow that ie loses a calf if too fat .. then she is with larry so solves the problem .. and generally over time you finish up with a pretty functional herd (at least in theory)

Agree on cull hard

Weighed recently for BEEPs
Lightest cow at 520kg calf doing 1.3kg
Heaviest cow at 840kg calf doing 1.5kg
What’s the odds the lightest cow gets scored better

Hard Knocks

Green&Red wrote: »

How do you differentiate between the calf that’s on meal?
Weight gain isn’t a level playing field.

True
As the farmer you know your farm and how many cows you can keep, so why keep an underperforming cow?

john mayo 10

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Agree on cull hard

Weighed recently for BEEPs
Lightest cow at 520kg calf doing 1.3kg
Heaviest cow at 840kg calf doing 1.5kg
What’s the odds the lightest cow gets scored better

Sorry if this is a silly question but how are ye calculating daily weight gain. Are ye estimating their birth weight plus how many days old they are

Lady Haywire

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Agree on cull hard

Weighed recently for BEEPs
Lightest cow at 520kg calf doing 1.3kg
Heaviest cow at 840kg calf doing 1.5kg
What’s the odds the lightest cow gets scored better

Lightest cow will get scored better there but lets say the larger cow's calf makes 200 more at sales (higher quality, better weight for example) does the heavier cow then get marked up for a better ppk on the calf? When she's culled, better ppk on her LW as well.

We have cows in the 550kg bracket, and cows around the 750kg bracket. Would I put TVR on the small cow? No. Would I put it on the bigger cow & expect a fancier calf to get an better price? Yes indeedy.

There's pros & cons to each, I guess. Only the farmer can decide which he prefers to aim for. If the bigger cow isn't producing the goods with more valuable calves at sale time, then cull away, but it's not as clearcut as the powers that be telling us the lighter cow is a better one to keep.

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Sorry if this is a silly question but how are ye calculating daily weight gain. Are ye estimating their birth weight plus how many days old they are

That's how we do it anyway.

Bitten & Hisses

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Sorry if this is a silly question but how are ye calculating daily weight gain. Are ye estimating their birth weight plus how many days old they are

I bought a scales under TAMS a couple of years ago. I leave it in the calving shed when it's not in the crush and I weigh each newborn calf as soon as they've sucked, or at worst on the day after birth. I key it into ICBF and that gives the ADG.
2020 is the first year I've been disciplined about doing it. The remarkable thing is that the vast majority of my calves are 42-43Kg, with a very occasional outlier. The heaviest cow I have at 800KG + gave birth unassisted to a 65Kg monster this year! It'll be interesting to see how they perform as a package.

In terms of performance, I believe we have to live with the fact that BDGP won't be perfect in terms of variables like meal feeding. Another, probably more significant variable is from calves who suck other cows - I can see 4 calves under certain cows some days!

tanko

This obsession that ICBF have with the weight of calves is nonsense.
The quality of the calf is the important thing, not the weight.
In the Autumn weanling sales you often see good quality calves around 300kgs make more than average quality calves around 400kgs.

Anto_Meath

The Bdgp is a good guidance / assistance but that is all it is, I wouldn't be deciding what heifers to keep solely based on it nor would I be deciding what cows to cull based on it either.
I pick my heifers / cows based on the following.
1 temperament - they need to be quite, I don't like working with difficult people or animals.
2 milk - try and keeps the best milkers I can. You need milk to feed a good calf.
3 Breeding - as the saying goes a drop of breeding is worth a tonne of feeding.
4 size / age -I try to have mine calving around 30 months that mean they are bigger and from second caver on (AI here) I can but a little bit stronger bull on them, - better animal to sell - little bit more money into Antos bank account (that is the plan anyway).
4 Once a cows cross 10 she goes, that way I find I have very little trouble at calving or elders going wrong - (less work for Anto) plus you have a animal that will thrive will when you are fattening her.

Hard Knocks

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Sorry if this is a silly question but how are ye calculating daily weight gain. Are ye estimating their birth weight plus how many days old they are

Yes
Anything now weighed at birth 45kg for bulls and 40kg for heifers

Hard Knocks

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Lightest cow will get scored better there but lets say the larger cow's calf makes 200 more at sales (higher quality, better weight for example) does the heavier cow then get marked up for a better ppk on the calf? When she's culled, better ppk on her LW as well.

We have cows in the 550kg bracket, and cows around the 750kg bracket. Would I put TVR on the small cow? No. Would I put it on the bigger cow & expect a fancier calf to get an better price? Yes indeedy.

There's pros & cons to each, I guess. Only the farmer can decide which he prefers to aim for. If the bigger cow isn't producing the goods with more valuable calves at sale time, then cull away, but it's not as clearcut as the powers that be telling us the lighter cow is a better one to keep.



That's how we do it anyway.

Totally agree

Hard Knocks

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

I bought a scales under TAMS a couple of years ago. I leave it in the calving shed when it's not in the crush and I weigh each newborn calf as soon as they've sucked, or at worst on the day after birth. I key it into ICBF and that gives the ADG.
2020 is the first year I've been disciplined about doing it. The remarkable thing is that the vast majority of my calves are 42-43Kg, with a very occasional outlier. The heaviest cow I have at 800KG + gave birth unassisted to a 65Kg monster this year! It'll be interesting to see how they perform as a package.

In terms of performance, I believe we have to live with the fact that BDGP won't be perfect in terms of variables like meal feeding. Another, probably more significant variable is from calves who suck other cows - I can see 4 calves under certain cows some days!

I lost 2 calves last year, and got replacements
There is no where on ICBF to pair the new calf
Reports for the show the wean % marking down these cows

Bellview

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Agree on cull hard

Weighed recently for BEEPs
Lightest cow at 520kg calf doing 1.3kg
Heaviest cow at 840kg calf doing 1.5kg
What’s the odds the lightest cow gets scored better

The results have a weaning weight percentage and lighter cow might score better .. but I still look at daily gain as .2 a day is 70kg in a year and that helps when selling

DukeCaboom

A neighbour bought 3 genotyped heifers. He isn't signed up to icbf but wants to check their stats. Any tips other than signing up to icbf. Cheers

sonnybill

Anyone lodge an appeal to 2019 bdgp penalty and get no response ?!

Hurling Hereford

sonnybill wrote: »

Anyone lodge an appeal to 2019 bdgp penalty and get no response ?!

Shur e=mail them on beefschemes@agriculture.gov.ie to get a reply

Bellview

DukeCaboom wrote: »

A neighbour bought 3 genotyped heifers. He isn't signed up to icbf but wants to check their stats. Any tips other than signing up to icbf. Cheers

If your a member of herdplus can you check their tags.. if you wish pm tag number to me and I can check If it helps

Lime Tree Farm

Bellview wrote: »

If your a member of herdplus can you check their tags.. if you wish pm tag number to me and I can check If it helps

Yes, but it will return limited information. I have checked on our own sold stock, the information is restricted.

DukeCaboom

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

Yes, but it will return limited information. I have checked on our own sold stock, the information is restricted.

I am a member and he asked me to do it for him but I just couldn't figure it out.

amens

sonnybill wrote: »

Anyone lodge an appeal to 2019 bdgp penalty and get no response ?!

My experience with the department is that it is standard practice for them not to respond.