Collecting feedback on the Dispute Resolution Process

MadDog76

K-9 wrote: »

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1731

There's 77 pages in the archive there, I'm on the mobile site. It would be preferable that you do a sample because that would be unbiased from your viewpoint. Individual cases can't be discussed but there's plenty of information and data there for you to browse. I'm not seeing a reason to be reluctant to do so.

I've said this 3 times already but I'll repeat it ......... I have looked, I couldn't find Beasty's examples ......... do they actually exist?

At this point I'm suspecting they might not ..........

deepesthole

K-9 wrote: »

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1731

There's 77 pages in the archive there, I'm on the mobile site. It would be preferable that you do a sample because that would be unbiased from your viewpoint. Individual cases can't be discussed but there's plenty of information and data there for you to browse. I'm not seeing a reason to be reluctant to do so.

And does this mean you actually don't know if the overturned percentage is a stat at all?

K-9

deepesthole wrote: »

Why are you insistent a completely unreferenced claim from a mod is is a "stat" but the same from a non-mod is a "conspiracy theory"?
That sounds a bit biased there itself, no?

Ah here, I've no reason to doubt anybody, Beasty was good enough to spend time going through his cases, dismissing them as "claims" is harsh, especially with not an iota of evidence to substantiate it.

I'm asking for a little proof for these suspicions, hardly an unreasonable request.

Beasty

MadDog76 wrote: »

I've said this 3 times already but I'll repeat it ......... I have looked, I couldn't find Beasty's examples ......... do they actually exist?

At this point I'm suspecting they might not ..........

Search does not work properly in the DRP archive. However here are a few examples of appeals I've dealt with over the past year where I or the mod have lifted/overturned the card/ban:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057526579
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057490681
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057480898
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057411267
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057397374
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057395923
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057370434

K-9

I can find 5 cases that Beasty was part of in the last 5 months or so from a quick perusal of the archive, that's from looking at the last poster or obvious sports category appeals. Other threads would have an admin or the user as last poster, so would require ye to dig a bit deeper.

MadDog76

Beasty wrote: »

OK MadDog let me throw some more "informed comment" your way. Just to add I've not only looked at most dispute threads over the years, but I've actually dealt with over 10% of them.

What I find is the mods on this site actually do a very good job, which is part of the reason a relatively small number of cards and bans get overturned in DRP.

However you only see a small part of the overall dispute process within the Dispute Resolution Forum. In many cases agreement is reached between mod and user before it goes near the DRP. To illustrate this we have a thread in the mods forum where mods post to request cards (red or yellow) be overturned. Since the DRP started that thread has had getting on for 1,000 requests made by mods for cards to be overturned. That is on top of any cards overturned directly by Admins.

Bans are different as mods can overturn or lift them without Admin input. There have probably been many hundreds of bans and cards overturned that never hit that thread. In total there have been just over 1,500 dispute threads and I would suggest as many disputes have been resolved by mods and Admins agreeing to overturn the cards and bans directly as have been formally appealed.

Again using myself as an example, I have 20 posts in that infraction reversal thread. I have probably overturned another 20+ bans that I have issued (ie outside the DRP process). Virtually all of that will be in the Cycling forum (and I've probably had less than a handful of my own actions challenged in the DRP).

None of this is suggesting there is a fundamental problem with the disputes process. As many get overturned behind the scenes as get challenged within the DRP. Many more get accepted by users following discussion with the mod (I'm not going to trawl through all 5,000+ PMs in my Inbox, but I have certainly discussed a hell of a lot more than the 40+ actions referred to above with users)

First of all, thank you Beasty for the reply, it's much appreciated.

Secondly, let me apologise if it seems I am questioning your honesty, I'm not. It was another poster on here, not me, who decided to hold you up as an example of how well DRP works but neither I, or that poster, have been able to verify such a claim.

Now on to your reply ......... I cannot comment on the Mods Forum as I cannot see it nor would I want to as it's not relevant to the topic of this thread which is about the DRP itself rather than what happens "behind the scenes" before appeals ever reach DRP.

I read through the DRP and have done so for a very long time and my Feedback is ....... there's a problem and I've posted why I feel that way.
Nothing has been posted here to warrant a change of opinion from me I'm afraid but I am open to being convinced, with evidence, that I'm wrong.

deepesthole

Beasty wrote: »

Search does not work properly in the DRP archive. However here are a few examples of appeals I've dealt with over the past year where I or the mod have lifted/overturned the card/ban:

I thought the debate was about whether cmods or admins ever overturn mod decisions? If a mod himself changes his mind anyway that's hardly the same thing.

MadDog76

Beasty wrote: »

Search does not work properly in the DRP archive. However here are a few examples of appeals I've dealt with over the past year where I or the mod have lifted/overturned the card/ban:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057526579
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057490681
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057480898
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057411267
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057397374
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057395923
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057370434

Thank you for those links Beasty, I'll have a read through them .........

Beasty

MadDog76 wrote: »

Now on to your reply ......... I cannot comment on the Mods Forum as I cannot see it nor would I want to as it's not relevant to the topic of this thread which is about the DRP itself rather than what happens "behind the scenes" before appeals ever reach DRP.

What I'm trying to do with that info is highlight you only see a relatively small part of the whole process. The additional info I provided hopefully helps you see a bit more of the wider picture

The stuff that ends up within the DRP is typically (but certainly not always) the more "contentious" (from the user's perspective certainly) disputes. Often though the rule breach (certainly in Sports, which is the only category I have heard appeals from - and bear in mind that all sports are rule driven - the people who typically discuss sports generally understand the way rules get applied within sport which is not dissimilar to the way they can get applied here) is quite clear, and maybe in some cases the user is going through the process "because they can".

Beasty

deepesthole wrote: »

I thought the debate was about whether cmods or admins ever overturn mod decisions? If a mod himself changes his mind anyway that's hardly the same thing.

It's all relevant to the Dispute Resolution Process. Those links include the examples where I have overturned cards/bans as a CMod within the DRP over the past year.

deepesthole

Beasty wrote: »

It's all relevant to the Dispute Resolution Process. Those links include the examples where I have overturned cards/bans as a CMod within the DRP over the past year.

You may have enacted the moderation reversal, but you didn't over rule the mod decision at all as they had changed their own mind
You can't believe these are the same thing?

nesf

deepesthole wrote: »

I thought the debate was about whether cmods or admins ever overturn mod decisions? If a mod himself changes his mind anyway that's hardly the same thing.

It's been years since I was a CMod but since you're asking, I overturned several bans/infractions as a CMod and had a ban of mine as a mod overturned in DRP by my co-CMod at the time. I also remember at least once an Admin overturning a CMod decision where I was involved. It wasn't common for bans to be overturned though, infractions got overturned much more often. This makes sense as bans tended to be handed out for more serious and obvious rules breaches whereas infractions could be judgement calls and not as obvious. So yeah, at least in the past it did happen and I really don't think it'll have changed much in the mean time since most of the same Admins are around and the rules culture hasn't changed much.





As for DRP, get rid of it and replace it with three or so people whose role is solely to hear disputes. This appeals process was well meant but it's a waste of everyone's time. I'd also make it private not public to cut down on the time wasting grandstanding that some people indulge in but I know this won't happen.

KERSPLAT!

5

That's the amount of times the goal posts have been moved in the last few pages.

deepesthole

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

5

That's the amount of times the goal posts have been moved in the last few pages.

Since my last post remains conspicuously ignored, the question is: by whom?

intheclouds

I think if you want genuine feedback on the process you need to allow people to post their feedback anonymously.

Beasty

deepesthole wrote: »

You may have enacted the moderation reversal, but you didn't over rule the mod decision at all as they had changed their own mind
You can't believe these are the same thing?

Did you actually read my post, the links it contained and the background to it?

I was responding to suggestions that some of the information I had provided previously within this thread may not be supportable

In particular questions were being raised over whether I had actually overturned 4 mod actions during the course of 2015

Now the search function does not pick up all my posts within the DRP archive. However I can see all threads I have been involved in within the archive, as there is a little icon that shows up for a user identifying threads they have contributed to. Hence I have actually trawled back over the 3 and a half years I have been involved in dealing with appeals and seen there are over 160 threads I have been involved in. However not all of them were appeals against cards or bans, and in one or two cases involving forums I actively mod I posted holding messages pending another CMod getting to deal with the appeal. Hence I think I have actually dealt with around 150 actual appeals (around 10% of the threads in the archive)

I also looked into all the threads I had been involved in during 2015, which formed the basis of the stats I posted and were now being questioned. I therefore posted links to the 7 threads involving cards or bans being overturned (which is what this thread was generally discussing at the time). In 3 of those threads the mod took the decision to overturn the card/ban (one or two of those were after my own discussions with the relevant mods). In 4 cases I took the decision myself to overturn the card or ban

Now I could post links to all 160+ threads, but I don't see that will serve much purpose, as I think this thread is more about what is currently going on within the DRP which is why I focussed on my recent personal experience

MadDog76

MadDog76 wrote: »

3 of that 7 were lifted or over-turned by the Mod him/herself ........ meaning that a Cmod (Beasty) only ruled against a Mod in DRP on four occasions in an entire year .......... and an Admin never over-turned that Cmod's ruling ........ not even one time in that whole year.

Beasty wrote: »

Search does not work properly in the DRP archive. However here are a few examples of appeals I've dealt with over the past year where I or the mod have lifted/overturned the card/ban:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057526579
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057490681
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057480898
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057411267
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057397374
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057395923
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057370434

So, having read through the 7 cases which Beasty provided, I can stand by my original post that a Cmod (Beasty) only directly ruled against a Mod in DRP on 4 occasions and that Cmod was never, not even one time in a whole year, ruled against by an Admin.
In fairness, this "stat" is no more or less than Beasty claimed but it's a long way off the claim made by a poster on here (think it was K-9?) that Beasty directly ruled against 28% of Mod decisions in DRP.

MadDog76

intheclouds wrote: »

I think if you want genuine feedback on the process you need to allow people to post their feedback anonymously.

Why would a poster need anonymity in order to give genuine feedback here?

That's a rhetorical question of course as there is a genuine fear that a Poster will be "punished" for posting anything negative about the Mods ......... that fear is compounded by some of the obvious resentment-filled posts by some of the Mods on this thread backed up by multiple "thanks" from their fellow Mods ........ the lack of "ordinary" Posters contributing to this thread speaks volumes.

This of course means than I've put myself firmly in the firing-line in the weeks/months ahead ...... unless I'm being paranoid? Time will tell .........

intheclouds

MadDog76 wrote: »

Why would a poster need anonymity in order to give genuine feedback here?

1. Fear of reprisals.
2. The disinhibition of anonymity will allow far more honest responses.
3. It will prevent a genuine bit of feedback being seen as merely a gripe if that person has had an unfavourable outcome in a previous DRP.
4. Mods often use posters post history against them either in pm or in DRP so these posts, if honesty is wanted, should stand outside of that.

K-9

MadDog76 wrote: »

So, having read through the 7 cases which Beasty provided, I can stand by my original post that a Cmod (Beasty) only directly ruled against a Mod in DRP on 4 occasions and that Cmod was never, not even one time in a whole year, ruled against by an Admin.
In fairness, this "stat" is no more or less than Beasty claimed but it's a long way off the claim made by a poster on here (think it was K-9?) that Beasty directly ruled against 28% of Mod decisions in DRP.

You think wrong maddog. What I said is on the thread, easily read back on and quotable.

K-9

MadDog76 wrote: »

I've said this 3 times already but I'll repeat it ......... I have looked, I couldn't find Beasty's examples ......... do they actually exist?

At this point I'm suspecting they might not ..........

And you never questioned Beasty's honesty whatsoever. I'd say an apology is in order tbh.

MadDog76

K-9 wrote: »

You think wrong maddog. What I said is on the thread, easily read back on and quotable.

K-9 wrote: »

And you never questioned Beasty's honesty whatsoever. I'd say an apology is in order tbh.

My contribution to this thread is just some genuine Feedback, no need to take it so personally.

I believe I treated Beasty very respectfully in my posts, as he did me in his posts .......... he posted facts and links to back up his claims (not yours) which I've acknowledged on the thread.
You used Beasty's posts to exaggerate and embellish your claims so perhaps it should be yourself apologising to Beasty?

K-9

I said 7/25 posts were overturned by a mod or C-Mod.

Why are you making wild claims that DRP threads may not exist, and when corrected, not apologising? And then making silly statements that are easily checked on the thread. It isn't as if you have to go out of your way, just read last nights posts.

If this is the standard in feedback now, anonymous posting would be an absolute trolls paradise.

Beasty

I actually like to give the mod the opportunity to revisit their decision if I think it should be overturned. It's better for all concerned if the mod agrees to get a card or ban overturned and relays that decision to the user. That has certainly happened on a number of occasions when I have dealt with appeals. In those cases it's a mods decision, but may well have been influenced by the CMod.

I posted those stats earlier in response to comments that stuff hardly ever gets overturned. I think I have provided ample evidence that plenty of decisions get overturned at each stage of the process. Most get overturned before an appeal gets anywhere near the DRP forum. Once it does get there, some get overturned by the mod - that may or indeed may not be after the intervention of a CMod. Some get overturned by a CMod, and some get overturned by an Admin. However in response to the comment that few get overturned by Admins, is that not because relatively few ever reach that stage and those that do have been fully aired within the DRP process meaning all relevant facts have probably already been fully considered

So far as I am concerned I really don't care less at what level they are overturned, although I do actually take some pride in my dealings within the DRP and certainly prefer to reach the position after my review where a user does not feel the need to request an Admin review. Ultimately that opportunity is there, meaning the user has the chance for 3 different levels of "review" of a decision they are unhappy with.

Beasty

MadDog76 wrote: »

This of course means than I've put myself firmly in the firing-line in the weeks/months ahead ...... unless I'm being paranoid? Time will tell .........

Get yourself a bike. Head over to the Cycling Forum. We'll "look after" you over there:P

deepesthole

K-9 wrote: »

I said 7/25 posts were overturned by a mod or C-Mod.

Can you quote for us where you said that?

deepesthole

K-9 wrote: »

I said 7/25 posts were overturned by a mod or C-Mod.

Why are you making wild claims that DRP threads may not exist, and when corrected, not apologising? And then making silly statements that are easily checked on the thread. It isn't as if you have to go out of your way, just read last nights posts.

If this is the standard in feedback now, anonymous posting would be an absolute trolls paradise.

Can I ask if a poster would be permitted to post in this manner in response to a moderator?

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Beasty wrote: »

Get yourself a bike. Head over to the Cycling Forum. We'll "look after" you over there:P

will helmets and hi-viz be provided?


:pac:

MadDog76

Beasty wrote: »

Get yourself a bike. Head over to the Cycling Forum. We'll "look after" you over there:P

:eek:

MadDog76

Beasty wrote: »

I actually like to give the mod the opportunity to revisit their decision if I think it should be overturned. It's better for all concerned if the mod agrees to get a card or ban overturned and relays that decision to the user. That has certainly happened on a number of occasions when I have dealt with appeals. In those cases it's a mods decision, but may well have been influenced by the CMod.

I posted those stats earlier in response to comments that stuff hardly ever gets overturned. I think I have provided ample evidence that plenty of decisions get overturned at each stage of the process. Most get overturned before an appeal gets anywhere near the DRP forum. Once it does get there, some get overturned by the mod - that may or indeed may not be after the intervention of a CMod. Some get overturned by a CMod, and some get overturned by an Admin. However in response to the comment that few get overturned by Admins, is that not because relatively few ever reach that stage and those that do have been fully aired within the DRP process meaning all relevant facts have probably already been fully considered

So far as I am concerned I really don't care less at what level they are overturned, although I do actually take some pride in my dealings within the DRP and certainly prefer to reach the position after my review where a user does not feel the need to request an Admin review. Ultimately that opportunity is there, meaning the user has the chance for 3 different levels of "review" of a decision they are unhappy with.

Reading between the lines here, and please do correct me (I know you will!) if I'm wrong, are you saying that if you investigate an appeal and decide that the Mod is wrong you will then contact the Mod in question to give him/her the opportunity to reverse their decision with the knowledge that if they don't then you, most likely, will?