Leaving work on time frowned upon. Mod warning post 1

BreadnBuddha

Russell Nutty Socialism wrote: »

what you should do is out source your whole production to China. Think of the fun you would have lording it over those people.

Pray tell, why would a sales manager 'lord it' over a production line in China?

If you want something to bite when you throw the bait, at least think, before you cast the line into the trees.

davo10

Russell Nutty Socialism wrote: »

what you should do is out source your whole production to China. Think of the fun you would have lording it over those people.

The reality is closer to the above than you would like to believe. Exporters have a golden opportunity to sell their wares at the moment so they must maximise potential. We have lost our competitive edge through rising costs and mismanagement (good article in the business section of today's Times). A poster earlier posted that the days of "jobs for life" are gone and in a cut throat market where other countries offer a much cheaper and in many cases better work force, the days for sentiment are also gone. The various labour agreements with unions effectively guaranteed high wages which had little to do with quality and productivity of the employee, private businesses can not afford to be bound by such an antiquated, one sided agreement. Recent history has shown that it is relatively easy for a production company to close operations here and move to a cheaper labour economy, this should be a lesson that we need a better educated, motivated and commited workforce. If your aim is to do the bare minimum, leave on the dot and give out about the injustice of the capitalism then there should be scope for the employer to replace you with a more motivated and ambitious worker. The market place is just too difficult to carry wasters.

mada82

Why are people confusing people who value their time and expect to be paid for it with workers who do the bare minimum.

I've always given my best in work. Worked long hours when required, got stuck in, went the extra mile for customers and constantly tried to find ways to improve how I work. Come into work sick rather than take a day off. Come in on scheduled holiday days if work was too busy.

I am a good employee. However I expect to be paid for my work. I put in for overtime the many times I worked it. If I felt I didn't give 100% that day I'd work late for free.

Wanting to be paid doesn't make you a bad employee.

davo10

mada82 wrote: »

Why are people confusing people who value their time and expect to be paid for it with workers who do the bare minimum.

I've always given my best in work. Worked long hours when required, got stuck in, went the extra mile for customers and constantly tried to find ways to improve how I work. Come into work sick rather than take a day off. Come in on scheduled holiday days if work was too busy.

I am a good employee. However I expect to be paid for my work. I put in for overtime the many times I worked it. If I felt I didn't give 100% that day I'd work late for free.

Wanting to be paid doesn't make you a bad employee.

You are exactly what employers are looking for. Some here believe your attitude is wrong and that finishing time means finishing time regardless. Bare minimum may refer to time, not productivity though for some productivity may also apply.

Given what you posted, if you were starting in a new job, three weeks in while trying to impress, would you ask the same question as the op or would you be thinking "this is my chance to show what I can do"?

Mr Meanor

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Pray tell, why would a sales manager 'lord it' over a production line in China?

If you want something to bite when you throw the bait, at least think, before you cast the line into the trees.

No casting needed, I think you are not an employer or sales manager but more likely an aggrieved company telesales person.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Pray tell, why would a sales manager 'lord it' over a production line in China?

If you want something to bite when you throw the bait, at least think, before you cast the line into the trees.

you are a sales manager? your previous posts refer to you as an employer.
which is it?
My guess is you work in the food industry, that maybe the only sector that still uses the outdated management techniques you post about.

Stheno

Mr Meanor wrote: »

No casting needed, I think you are not an employer or sales manager but more likely an aggrieved company telesales person.

Russell Nutty Socialism wrote: »

you are a sales manager? your previous posts refer to you as an employer.
which is it?
My guess is you work in the food industry, that maybe the only sector that still uses the outdated management techniques you post about.

Mod: both of you cut it out with the personal swipes.

CruelCoin

Azalea wrote: »

Reduce pay for new hires so, instead of lying to them that they're getting paid such-and-such an hour when they're not. Punishing them for being new and not knowing the ropes yet... unreal.

How is expecting to get what you're paying for "punishement" ?

Wanderer2010

Do the people who think working long hours without pay as part of loyalty to their company actually achieve a satisfying work life balance and have energy to enjoy time with their friends and family? I find it hard to believe that someone who puts that much effort into work can have a very satisfying life outside of work.

davo10

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Do the people who think working long hours without pay as part of loyalty to their company actually achieve a satisfying work life balance and have energy to enjoy time with their friends and family? I find it hard to believe that someone who puts that much effort into work can have a very satisfying life outside of work.

Do people who work long hours with pay have a better work life balance?

davo10

davo10 wrote: »

Do people who work long hours with pay have a better work life balance?

Yep!

davo10

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yep!

Ah, so if you are paid then the work life argument goes out the window? Glad to know that money is the more important consideration.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

davo10 wrote: »

Ah, so if you are paid then the work life argument goes out the window? Glad to know that money is the more important consideration.

Nobody ever said that.

What if doing a few extra hours overtime (paid) meant you could help save towards a weekend away with the other half ? Sacrificing a few hours for a weekend seems reasonable.

LegacyUser

Russell Nutty Socialism wrote: »

Good for you, you used a well traveled road to promotion - the union martyr who makes life hell for the employers and then crosses sides to make life hell for the union.

Hardly crossed sides. I haven't left or resigned from the union. I am just no longer the shop-steward. Which means that I have more time for further education, taking on additional responsibilities at work etc - in short, a more effective use of my time.

davo10

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Nobody ever said that. .

Snoopsheep just did, it's there on your screen.

Azalea

CruelCoin wrote: »

How is expecting to get what you're paying for "punishement" ?

Don't be so dishonest. Lying to them that they're getting a particular wage, when they're not, is of course punishment. The practice of making new hires work extra hours for no pay because they don't know the ropes yet, is punishment.

Azalea

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Isn't it gas that employees criticise business operators for being focused on their money first, often at the expense of employees, therefore they're terrible people.

Meanwhile, the employees focus on their money first, often at the expense of the business, therefore they're clever and won't be taken for fools and whatnot.

Isn't it gas that you and others think it's unreasonable to criticise exploitation?

Stheno

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Do the people who think working long hours without pay as part of loyalty to their company actually achieve a satisfying work life balance and have energy to enjoy time with their friends and family? I find it hard to believe that someone who puts that much effort into work can have a very satisfying life outside of work.

I once worked in a company with the "you will occasionally be required to do overtime as part of your contract, for which you will not be paid."

Said company also offered mobile working, flexible hours, study time, and if we had been working like nuts on something, would send us home on unofficial days off, as in if we'd been on a mad bid team, we would be ordered to go home and take the day off

So overall it worked out well for me, I got a lot of flexibility from them, and they got the same from me tbh.

davo10

davo10 wrote: »

Snoopsheep just did, it's there on your screen.

Last year I worked 35 hour weeks for x

This year I work 45-50 hour weeks for 1.5x

My work-life balance is much improved, sorry if that's a big problem for ya.

There's obviously variable ranges wherein marginal time spent at work can be worth sacrificing for financial gain.

Lots of studies into it, nothing controversial, if the question was phrased less loosely then you could maybe get picky but at the low-hours low-wages end of things the majority would absorb the time loss for extra income.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Last year I worked 35 hour weeks for x

This year I work 45-50 hour weeks for 1.5x

My work-life balance is much improved, sorry if that's a big problem for ya.

There's obviously variable ranges wherein marginal time spent at work can be worth sacrificing for financial gain.

Lots of studies into it, nothing controversial, if the question was phrased less loosely then you could maybe get picky but at the low-hours low-wages end of things the majority would absorb the time loss for extra income.

think id find it hard to have a balanced work/life working those hours. how do you manage it? i wouldnt be able to get adequate time for exercise, rest, time for family and friends with that etc.

Stheno

Wanderer78 wrote: »

think id find it hard to have a balanced work/life working those hours. how do you manage it? i wouldnt be able to get adequate time for exercise, rest, time for family and friends with that etc.

I'm a contractor now, so technically self employed and I provide services to a couple of companies.

Some of the work I do means I have to be in a given place at a given time for a set amount of time. More of it means I set a deadline and just complete it within that deadline. Between the two it's a 60/40 split.

Some days I get up at 5am to travel to Belfast, and get home at seven.

Most Fridays I finish work at lunchtime bar dealing with calls/any major issues. When it's particularly busy I may work Saturdays and Sundays and bill accordingly

When I worked as a permanent employee, it was pretty much the same, there was serious flexibility where I worked.

That's in the past few years (say the last 7) I did previously work in the likes of callcentres etc which were much more regulated

Azalea

Stheno wrote: »

I once worked in a company with the "you will occasionally be required to do overtime as part of your contract, for which you will not be paid."

Said company also offered mobile working, flexible hours, study time, and if we had been working like nuts on something, would send us home on unofficial days off, as in if we'd been on a mad bid team, we would be ordered to go home and take the day off

So overall it worked out well for me, I got a lot of flexibility from them, and they got the same from me tbh.

That's not work for free though, which is being endorsed by some here.

Stheno

Azalea wrote: »

That's not work for free though, which is being endorsed by some here.

Well you see, I'd question how one sided the view of working from free here is to be honest.

I've worked in loads of organisations who expected you to work to get the work done, but most always accomodated those who did the extra time, who then needed time off to go to the dentist/deal with a childminding issue etc.

It's not as black and white as being presented here imo

To give you an extreme example of my flexibility I once arrived in the office at 10am having been in Belfast for three days, and left that day at 3am having finished working on a bid.

I was then given two days off.

Azalea

People have said on this thread that they would expect their employees to work hours outside of their scheduled ones, but no pay or time in lieu.

Stheno

Azalea wrote: »

People have said on this thread that they would expect their employees to work hours outside of their scheduled ones, but no pay or time in lieu.

And others have said they would accomodate those employees with personal situations and time needed out during the working day, or extreme personal circumstances, on the basis that said employees have proven themselves.

It's 50/50 for me tbh

I'd wonder if the OP in this thread, who btw hasn't been back, even asked what the culture was in the company.

Wanderer78

Stheno wrote: »

I'm a contractor now...

that sounds full on to me. i wouldnt be able to do it. fair play to you. i spend at least 20 hours a week exercising. i dont know how id fit that into your lifestyle.

Stheno

Wanderer78 wrote: »

that sounds full on to me. i wouldnt be able to do it. fair play to you. i spend at least 20 hours a week exercising. i dont know how id fit that into your lifestyle.

Ah right, I spend most of my day on my feet, do some exercise less at the moment due to my masters, go on date nights three times a week with my OH, am doing a masters which is shortly going to finish, and we have "family" time every week when his adult children are over.

On top of that I've at least one night a week as does he, where we do our own thing/meet friends, and prior to getting engulfed in my thesis I sailed up to four times a week.

I'd consider I've a fairly full life tbh

Wanderer78

Stheno wrote: »

Ah right, I spend most of my day on my feet, do some exercise less at the moment due to my masters, go on date nights three times a week with my OH, am doing a masters which is shortly going to finish, and we have "family" time every week when his adult children are over.

On top of that I've at least one night a week as does he, where we do our own thing/meet friends, and prior to getting engulfed in my thesis I sailed up to four times a week.

I'd consider I've a fairly full life tbh

yea thats full on alright. fair play ta yea. whats the masters in?

Stheno

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yea thats full on alright. fair play ta yea. whats the masters in?

IT, the subject I deal with everyday! Rather a very specific area of IT that I work in.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

think id find it hard to have a balanced work/life working those hours. how do you manage it? i wouldnt be able to get adequate time for exercise, rest, time for family and friends with that etc.

No kids and none planned. Commute is about thirty minutes each way. Im in a new role after a promotion and I don't feel the time passing to be honest, I'd stay another ten hours if I could.

Wouldn't and won't do it forever but can honestly say that regardless of the jump in money I'm happier at work now than I was in a less interesting position for ten hours a week less this time last year.