Leaving work on time frowned upon. Mod warning post 1

Halloween Jack

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Absolutely.

All of the shareholders are owner-managers. All of them used to be factory workers here. All pursued higher level education at night and weekend while literally punching metal parts, machining components, welding assemblies and selling product during the day. They remortgaged their homes to buy the business premises, tooling and equipment.

They've come from the shop floor, as tradesmen, with nothing good to say about the union to which they all paid dues for decades. A union will never find a foothold inside its doors under their ownership. I've seen two workers lose their jobs for disruptive practices when they kept pushing other workers to organise.

If you want to work in a unionised workplace, go work someplace else. Here, you're held accountable as an individual for what you contribute.

You claim the sales staff are on flexi time, yet you also claim you'd fire them for leaving at the agreed time. How does this work exactly?

BreadnBuddha

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Absolutely.

All of the shareholders are owner-managers. All of them used to be factory workers here. All pursued higher level education at night and weekend while literally punching metal parts, machining components, welding assemblies and selling product during the day. They remortgaged their homes to buy the business premises, tooling and equipment.

They've come from the shop floor, as tradesmen, with nothing good to say about the union to which they all paid dues for decades. A union will never find a foothold inside its doors under their ownership. I've seen two workers lose their jobs for disruptive practices when they kept pushing other workers to organise.

If you want to work in a unionised workplace, go work someplace else. Here, you're held accountable as an individual for what you contribute.

FWIW Unions can be troublesome ill agree in the public/civil service cases. Irish Rail, An Post, Dublin Bus for example in recent years. I dont agree with unions getting too much power but unfortunately we are in a situation where people at each side are on such a boner with their power that they fail to see what is right.

But a scale must balance so that all parties concerned benefit. It sounds like you see people that you can use as a means to an end as opposed to being actual living breathing human beings that just want to earn a bob or two and live their lives and support those that they bring into the world.

GFT

It's ambitious to work for free? Ghaha. I suppose that's the same ****e unscrupulous bosses feed their employees.

BreadnBuddha

STB. wrote: »

I think we all fully understand that, but neither is it a measure of under performance and such practices wouldn't take long to settle in an unfair dismissals case.

I do not understand someone coming onto an internet forum and openly admitting they fired people for meeting set targets. These are not management practices to be proud of. Any such exposure would be downright foolish.

Customer visits, call campaigns, post delivery follow-up, electronic marketing campaigns, all REQUIRED activities with identified completion targets and reporting.

Taking repeat orders via email, hitting your revenue target and then spending 2-3 hours per day on FB, YouTube, Twitter and personal phone calls, while ignoring the above required activities made it an easy decision.

Gone. Done and dusted.

In relation to the unions, join it if you want. There's nothing to stop you. It's not prohibited in our employment contracts either. Big difference when it comes to recognition. Good luck on that part.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

FWIW Unions can be troublesome ill agree in the public/civil service cases. Irish Rail, An Post, Dublin Bus for example in recent years....

i disagree with you there a wee bit but im not gonna derail the thread over it

Wanderer78

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Customer visits....

WOW, ireland really is in trouble!:eek:

the time has come to stand up folks, shoulder to shoulder!

STB.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Absolutely.

All of the shareholders are owner-managers. All of them used to be factory workers here. All pursued higher level education at night and weekend while literally punching metal parts, machining components, welding assemblies and selling product during the day. They remortgaged their homes to buy the business premises, tooling and equipment.

They've come from the shop floor, as tradesmen, with nothing good to say about the union to which they all paid dues for decades. A union will never find a foothold inside its doors under their ownership. I've seen two workers lose their jobs for disruptive practices when they kept pushing other workers to organise.

If you want to work in a unionised workplace, go work someplace else. Here, you're held accountable as an individual for what you contribute.

Employees are a nuisance, but a necessary evil. Why didn't you say so! It would have saved all the dancing around workers rights.

You have certainly given us an alternative viewpoint.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

In relation to the unions, join it if you want. There's nothing to stop you. It's not prohibited in our employment contracts either. Big difference when it comes to recognition. Good luck on that part.

Oh I fully understand how anti-union stances are implemented AND why.

All the best in the race to the bottom, pal.

BreadnBuddha

Halloween Jack wrote: »

You claim the sales staff are on flexi time, yet you also claim you'd fire them for leaving at the agreed time. How does this work exactly?

If you're on target (revenue and other KPI's), flexi away.

If you've mismanaged your hours, you're behind forecast and haven't done what you needed to do otherwise in your job (calls, follow ups, meetings), don't think a finishing time on a contract means you're okay to shrug your shoulders and walk away. And don't think any extra time you put in now will see you further compensated.

If someone tries that, I've plenty of justification to start the push. Finishing time may be the breaking point, but I'll get rid of them for other perfectly legitimate and documented and notified reasons. The end result will be the same.

Wanderer78

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

If you're on target...

losts for words! theres a good chance your business and/or your health will fail eventually. careful now!

STB.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

And don't think any extra time you put in now will see you further compensated.

If someone tries that, I've plenty of justification to start the push. Finishing time may be the breaking point, but I'll get rid of them for other perfectly legitimate and documented and notified reasons. The end result will be the same.

Enlightening. I have been doing it all wrong. You have certainly opened my eyes.

Please have this poster for your wall as some form of thanks.

STB.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

losts for words! theres a good chance your business and/or your health will fail eventually. careful now!

He had us all there for a second, Wanderer.

Very subtle. It all became very obvious at the end though didn't it.

BreadnBuddha

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

If you're on target (revenue and other KPI's), flexi away.

If you've mismanaged your hours, you're behind forecast and haven't done what you needed to do otherwise in your job (calls, follow ups, meetings), don't think a finishing time on a contract means you're okay to shrug your shoulders and walk away. And don't think any extra time you put in now will see you further compensated.

If someone tries that, I've plenty of justification to start the push. Finishing time may be the breaking point, but I'll get rid of them for other perfectly legitimate and documented and notified reasons. The end result will be the same.

And if you have a shíte day where nothing goes right and your head is all over the place which assuming you are a human and we all have them, what happens then? If for example your 3 hours behind your KPIs, revenue, etc? Do you stay on for another three hours with your head all over the place to make up for your lack of production earlier on?

Your taking a black and white view of these situations which unfortunately most of our 'modern' day bosses tend to do. Your of the school of William McGregor and FW Taylor back in the late 1800's.

Your mad to play Donald Trump or Alan Sugar and flex your egos. Anyone who was fired by you was done a real favour. You and your company are bullies.

Dyr

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Absolutely.

All of the shareholders are owner-managers. All of them used to be factory workers here. All pursued higher level education at night and weekend while literally punching metal parts, machining components, welding assemblies and selling product during the day. They remortgaged their homes to buy the business premises, tooling and equipment.

They've come from the shop floor, as tradesmen, with nothing good to say about the union to which they all paid dues for decades. A union will never find a foothold inside its doors under their ownership. I've seen two workers lose their jobs for disruptive practices when they kept pushing other workers to organise.

If you want to work in a unionised workplace, go work someplace else. Here, you're held accountable as an individual for what you contribute.

Thats weird you said you had an anti union workforce but now apparently you have to break the law by firing people for suggesting staff organisations. Your self raised employers may want to consult with an employment law solictor on two specific points there

If I was you i'd keep the unions out of there at all costs and keep a competent HR dept out of there too, because the first thing they'll do is go through you with a horse and four

Apparently the place is owned by a cadre of bill cullens now too. I reckon you may have just read penny apples a bit too much, although there probably are still small outfits knocking around ireland that are running cowboy set ups like this

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i disagree with you there a wee bit but im not gonna derail the thread over it

Dont get me wrong i see the need for Unions but unfortunately there is lack of intelligence on both sides of the fence to avoid strike action.

TheDoc

My last job had this, as does my new job. It has been mentioned in my last job but not my current. When it was brought up, I was very clear in saying I'm not going to stay late for appearances to pretend like I'm working more. I get my work done on time, and if there is an issue with my work, quality of work, or volume, that can be addressed specifically.

To much rubbish growing now where its like, expected you stay longer hours, but there isnt the immediate overtime provided. Something I'll never get into. It's literally for suckers.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Dont get me wrong i see the need for Unions but unfortunately there is lack of intelligence on both sides of the fence to avoid strike action.

ah its complicated and im not gonna get into it here but i kinna know what your saying

BreadnBuddha

STB. wrote: »

Employees are a nuisance, but a necessary evil. Why didn't you say so! It would have saved all the dancing around workers rights.

You have certainly given us an alternative viewpoint.


Oh I fully understand how anti-union stances are implemented AND why.

All the best in the race to the bottom, pal.

Good employees are a valuable asset. Bad employees are a distraction at best and at worst pose a real risk to the success, job satisfaction and security of those good employees.

I don't dance around workers rights. We're all treated very well here if we are conscientious in our approach to the importance of our roles and the responsibilities we each have to each other and the owners. If somebody is causing a problem but they want to help fix it, we'll try to work with them to fix it. If they don't want to, we move on and find someone who can.

That's what the OP's employer will do also. The reality of working for small companies in the private sector.

Bongalongherb

You are being paid for your time of which starts and ends at specific times, why would a person stay working for longer than the agreed working time with no extra pay ?.

The only reason I personally would stay an hour or two longer would be in the 'case' to finish my workload if I was lagging behind myself or, if I needed to finish my project so I wouldn't have extra workload the following day or week. I'd do that for myself to ease the load. But being looked at and frowned upon because I left work at my contract time ? well, that's unacceptable from any employer.

R.D. aka MR.D

There is a big difference between the odd 'staying to get something done' (having worked in retail and other customer facing roles in the past, I've done plenty of time past when I was supposed to leave) and habitual overtime for no reason.

I live in Japan at the moment where they have Karoshi - death by overwork. It's not that they die because they are so busy, it's sheer hours. Hours they put in where they are no more productive, it's only for appearances.

Nobody ever lay on their deathbed thinking: I wish I'd stayed later in the office.

the_pen_turner

OP how much longer till your not on trial

Wanderer78

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Nobody ever lay on their deathbed thinking: I wish I'd stayed later in the office.

paul mccully only mentioned this in a recent interview:

https://player.fm/series/masters-in-business/an-interview-with-paul-mcculley-masters-in-business-audio

interesting interview in its entirety

BreadnBuddha

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And if you have a shíte day where nothing goes right and your head is all over the place which assuming you are a human and we all have them, what happens then? If for example your 3 hours behind your KPIs, revenue, etc? Do you stay on for another three hours with your head all over the place to make up for your lack of production earlier on?

Your taking a black and white view of these situations which unfortunately most of our 'modern' day bosses tend to do. Your of the school of William McGregor and FW Taylor back in the late 1800's.

Your mad to play Donald Trump or Alan Sugar and flex your egos. Anyone who was fired by you was done a real favour. You and your company are bullies.

It's nothing about ego. I could sugar coat everything for you if it helps make you feel better. But it really is black and white when it comes down to it. The businesses most of us work for have only one metric that matters, ultimately. That is, did we make enough profit.

You work in a call center? Your metrics are recorded, reviewed by team leaders and they look for trends in performance. A bad day is a bad day. A bad week, even that happens.

In our business, I report weekly to the management team and monthly to the board meeting. I can excuse a bad week or even a run if I know something's going on at home or healthwise or whatever. The board of directors don't care though. If someone's falling on their face or failing to perform and that gap is visible to the board, I'd better already have an action plan in place to fix it. Sometimes you can't fix it with a particular person in a given role, so you move them into something else or you re-hire.

Wanderer78

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's nothing about ego....

so where does the problem lie?

Dyr

Bongalongherb wrote: »

You are being paid for your time of which starts and ends at specific times, why would a person stay working for longer than the agreed working time with no extra pay ?.

The only reason I personally would stay an hour or two longer would be in the 'case' to finish my workload if I was lagging behind myself or, if I needed to finish my project so I wouldn't have extra workload the following day or week. I'd do that for myself to ease the load. But being looked at and frowned upon because I left work at my contract time ? well, that's unacceptable from any employer.

You'll probably find that the extra hours you're working add up to 13 months for 12 months salary with the unofficial hours scam. It seems some companies just pull it to see if you're the three bags full type

Dyr

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's nothing about ego. I could sugar coat everything for you if it helps make you feel better. But it really is black and white when it comes down to it. The businesses most of us work for have only one metric that matters, ultimately. That is, did we make enough profit.

You work in a call center? Your metrics are recorded, reviewed by team leaders and they look for trends in performance. A bad day is a bad day. A bad week, even that happens.

In our business, I report weekly to the management team and monthly to the board meeting. I can excuse a bad week or even a run if I know something's going on at home or healthwise or whatever. The board of directors don't care though. If someone's falling on their face or failing to perform and that gap is visible to the board, I'd better already have an action plan in place to fix it. Sometimes you can't fix it with a particular person in a given role, so you move them into something else or you re-hire.

Wait, is it the management or the board of directors who pulled themselves up by the boot straps from the level of chimney sweep?

Employment law can fairly black and white too, they might want to have a word with the HR director (who started out handling the tea run no doubt) about that.

Although it seems conditions in this workplace have improved even over the course of the last few hours :rolleyes:

BreadnBuddha

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's nothing about ego. I could sugar coat everything for you if it helps make you feel better. But it really is black and white when it comes down to it. The businesses most of us work for have only one metric that matters, ultimately. That is, did we make enough profit.

You work in a call center? Your metrics are recorded, reviewed by team leaders and they look for trends in performance. A bad day is a bad day. A bad week, even that happens.

In our business, I report weekly to the management team and monthly to the board meeting. I can excuse a bad week or even a run if I know something's going on at home or healthwise or whatever. The board of directors don't care though. If someone's falling on their face or failing to perform and that gap is visible to the board, I'd better already have an action plan in place to fix it. Sometimes you can't fix it with a particular person in a given role, so you move them into something else or you re-hire.

Ok from that post i see where your at to be honest and I agree that the BOD do only care about one thing and ultimately you have that pressure to do what you have to do or heads roll. Fair enough

But this thread is gone from you saying that the op should be given the chop for not being willing to go beyond his finish time (despite him being on a temp contract with no mention of overtime or pay) to you then stating that ok i understand its ok to have a bad day/week even, etc but it is the way it is and the axe has to fall on someone.

Sounds to me like your back tracking a small bit there. You made the original assumption that anyone who doesn't work beyond their hours is presumably lazy and unproductive. Do you know for a fact that the OP hasn't put in a productive shift that he has no right to 'have the cheek' to walk out on the stroke of the end of his shift?

Wanderer78

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's nothing about ego...

tis all very neoclassical to me;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_economics

BreadnBuddha

Bambi wrote: »

Thats weird you said you had an anti union workforce but now apparently you have to break the law by firing people for suggesting staff organisations. Your self raised employers may want to consult with an employment law solictor on two specific points there

If I was you i'd keep the unions out of there at all costs and keep a competent HR dept out of there too, because the first thing they'll do is go through you with a horse and four

Apparently the place is owned by a cadre of bill cullens now too. I reckon you may have just read penny apples a bit too much, although there probably are still small outfits knocking around ireland that are running cowboy set ups like this

Every employee likes to think they do a good enough job and that they're secure and protected by employment legislation.

The Fact is that any business with any form of metric based performance management system will have ample opportunity to demonstrate that an employee is failing to meet their contracted obligations.

A warning, PIP, warning, notice and off you go.

You should also recognise that despite the softer side of HR personnel, the policy back end is always in favour of the company, within the constraints of legislation.

The two people in question were both terminated (I know, some here will delight in my use of the term) for habitual failure to adhere to basic scheduled maintenance operations for machinery for which they were responsible on the factory floor.

A close look at most employees practices will identify a focus point which can provide indisputable basis for legitimate termination of contracts.

A supervisor had repeatedly recorded non-compliance and issued verbal warnings to both. Their disruptive discussions with other employees were reported and the supervisor engaged with HR to begin 'corrective' action in full compliance with the documented disciplinary procedure.

It was then simply a case of paying attention until they inevitably screwed up, and they were gone.

It's not a nice thing to do or have done to you, but if you want to rock the boat, you'd better be able to swim.

BreadnBuddha

Bambi wrote: »

Wait, is it the management or the board of directors who pulled themselves up by the boot straps from the level of chimney sweep?

Employment law can fairly black and white too, they might want to have a word with the HR director (who started out handling the tea run no doubt) about that.

Although it seems conditions in this workplace have improved even over the course of the last few hours :rolleyes:

The owners, who are the shareholders, run the business day to day.

They appoint a board of directors, responsible for the high level strategic management of the business, its financial performance as an entity and so forth.

If you didn't realise that already, I'd be surprised.

Conditions are what they are. Which is, very good.

What may be tough is simply accepting that the real priority of business is making a profit for continued operation enabling a higher return for the shareholders, versus what employees think should be held as most important.

That's likely to be the thing that's getting stuck in your throat.

Wanderer78

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Every employee....

the problem actually isnt with the employees but with the system itself. ireland and indeed the world is going through a deeply disturbing time in relation to workers rights etc. we re in desperate need of a union movement in this country at the moment as our current employment system is inducing mental health problems into our society. this will result in major social problems going forward. as said before, people are incredibly complicated emotional beings. we re not machines, we cannot be simple turned off and on. is this the way we really want to be treated and to treat others? is this the way we want to treat our planet? if we dont address these issues immediately and effectively, we will self destruct along with our planet. if you're wondering why countries such as america have high gun crimes, this is a good area to research for the source of such problems. yes we all know the place is awash with guns but as they say, guns dont kill people and blah blah blah. careful what you wish for now!